Look what Wii is doing.

Gamespot Article says:

A new breed of gamer has also emerged on the back of the release of Nintendo's marketing push to embrace nontraditional gamers--including women and older people--and this means, Wada says, "we have to make games for all kinds of people."

Wrote: pyrobob105

You know what? I hate this. Instead of focusing on making great, complex, deep games for us GAMERS. So many developers now want to try and simplify things to make them more accessible to "nontraditional gamers or casual gamers". I don't want my games simplified for the sake of my mom being able to play them. The whole idea behind the Wii remote looking like a regular TV remote because "people are used to picking those up and using them" and all these similar ideas, I think are garbage. Sure - it might make some people play games that otherwise wouldn't, but at the cost of developers tailoring their games to be more exciting and complex for us regular/core gamers.

discuss.

i just happen to agree with him 100% and actually discuss that with a friend thats a nintendo head a few days ago. it is what i hate about the wii the most.

they take great game titles and kill the dream of looking at the games in their greatness capabilities.

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

morbidm

Hardcore gamers bought the GameCube for Metroid, Zelda, Mario, etc...

Casuals bought the PS2 for 3rd party games.

Non Gamers didnt buy anything.

Hardcore gamers buy the Wii for Metroid, Zelda, Mario, etc...

Casuals buy the Wii for their 3rd party games.

Non-Gamers buy the Wii for the casual games.

Non-Gamers become casuals.

Nintendo gains more profit.

Nintendo wins.

Grandma Sue and Little Cousin Ivan is playing Wii. Great. These margins only buy 3-4 games a year if that. A hardcore buys 10-15-20 games a year.

This is what I'm afraid of. The casuals are stealing and sapping energy from the main source, us.PhoebusFlows

Interesting, then name me a game that only Hardcore like that become multiplatinum.

Exactly.

See, the thing is, we (the hardcore/regular game crowd) are terribly fickle, and hard to please (see how the games rated below 8 get bashed). Casual/non gamers are easier to please, and there are presumably more of them, so *business* wise, it makes sense to cater to them. This is just what happens when any entertainment medium becomes popular. Let's look for parellels, yes?

Music: I'm a heavy metal fan. We have no heavy metal radio in my area. Why? Not as many heavy metal fans as there are fans of "mix" music, as in different genres.

Movies: Pirates of the Carribean 3 got pretty bad reviews by critics, yet is one of the best grossing movies of all time. Know why? The casual moviegoer knows the name, and there's a lot more of them than there are critics.

Grandma Sue and Little Cousin Ivan is playing Wii. Great. These margins only buy 3-4 games a year if that. A hardcore buys 10-15-20 games a year.

This is what I'm afraid of. The casuals are stealing and sapping energy from the main source, us.PhoebusFlows

So do you know this Grandma Sue personally? or is this all hypothetical? ;)

Wii = the crappy US sitcom of video games. I can't stand watching the crappy sitcomes on TV any more than I can stand to play the Wii.WheresMyChippy

I'd take it a step further and say that Wii is the Reality TV of videogames. It's cheap to make and people go nuts for it, but it could lead to the downfall of the medium as we know it.

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

morbidm

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

Hey, hardcores? You're a minority. :) Everyone seems to think that hardcore gamers are the only ones that should play games, and that all platforms should cater to their needs.

Not how business works, folks, as much as you want to believe MS and Sony are all about "teh gamez."

[QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

beldugo

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

[QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

Timstuff

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

In the visuals...but when have Zelda or Metroid been games liked for their polygon count?

[QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

beldugo

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

Ah but how cool would it be to be able to actually point hte wiimote at hte screen like a real gun?

[QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

Timstuff

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

[QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

Timstuff

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

Part of what makes these series so great is they don't need those quality visuals to be excellent. Here's a similarly silly sentiment: If GoW had Metroid graphics, would it be as enjoyable?

[QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

Xerlaoth

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

Part of what makes these series so great is they don't need those quality visuals to be excellent. Here's a similarly silly sentiment: If GoW had Metroid graphics, would it be as enjoyable?

when it rains in gear it looks superb, best graphics i ever seen. gears with metroid graphic won't give me that eye candy.

[QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

IAmRodyle

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

In the visuals...but when have Zelda or Metroid been games liked for their polygon count?

Super Metroid is one of the SNES's best looking games, and Zelda: Link to the Past was gorgeous when it came out, and so was Ocarina of Time. Nintendo used to be all about amazing graphics, but they gave up completely with Wii.

[QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

subrosian

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

[QUOTE="Xerlaoth"][QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

beldugo

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

Part of what makes these series so great is they don't need those quality visuals to be excellent. Here's a similarly silly sentiment: If GoW had Metroid graphics, would it be as enjoyable?

when it rains in gear it looks superb, best graphics i ever seen. gears with metroid graphic won't give me that eye candy.

The rain looks better! Big whoop! Seriously do people here actually go outdoors?

This is what we mean with the hardcore vs casual debate. I get sick of hearing "there will always be a hardcore market" - no, there won't. Hollywood stopped making "hardcore" movies for the most part in the 70s / 80s - which is why such a movie as Pulp Fiction was a cult hit, as is Donnie Darko now. It's a rare thing for a decent movie to slip out.

I would love to see Metroid Prime with 360 quality visuals - it would be as breathtaking as Metroid Prime was when it first came out on the GCN. I hate to see the Wii holding back series that relied heavily on visual storytelling.
subrosian

You're comparing two different industries. The hardcore market has been alive since the dawn of the gaming industry - why, after one console with casual appeal (as if it was the first), would it suddenly disappear? Will hardcores just lose interest in gaming if they have to avoid purchasing shovelware? They'll stop buying hardcore games? Believe it or not, it is still a profitable target audience, just overshadowed by the new market Nintendo is trying to pull in.

And how did Metroid rely heavily on visual storytelling? If I remember my playing of the games, the depth of the story comes from the various lore scans throughout. And even then, it isn't the story at all that the game relies "heavily" on. If anything, it's the raw gameplay its been praised for (which no casual could ever sit through).

[QUOTE="IAmRodyle"][QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

Timstuff

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

In the visuals...but when have Zelda or Metroid been games liked for their polygon count?

Super Metroid is one of the SNES's best looking games, and Zelda: Link to the Past was gorgeous when it came out, and so was Ocarina of Time. Nintendo used to be all about amazing graphics, but they gave up completely with Wii.

i respect more the N64 than the wii.. and N64 is the worse console ever for me.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="beldugo"][QUOTE="morbidm"]

This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

beldugo

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

When I think of Zelda with Oblivion quality visuals, and Metroid with Gears of War quality visuals, it makes me want to cry. So much potential within these series, and Nintendo is holding them back. :(

I would also hate to see companies like microsoft holding gaming back, while companies like nintendo are actually trying to move things forward ny trying to make gaming more like real life. The bridge in graphics isn't as big as itused to be.

[QUOTE="morbidm"]This argument is ridiculous

No matter how many games are made for how many people, there will ALWAYS be games for the "hardcore" ones among you to put your insecurity at rest

Stop complaining that its going to destroy the industry, because it isnt. Was the supply of hardcore games suddenly dropped when the DS came out? No.

You make it sound like your being neglected, and in the next forum youll go on about how Haze/GOW/Halo 3 is going to be uber awesome? Pathetic.

beldugo

two of the franchise wii got that i would love to see in high quality is nights and rygar. this is what i mean.

delevopers look at the wii and they take a step backwards in technology and wasting resource and time to make games to please moms and fathers.

Whiny theard starters is why I hate the word hardcore for gamers. If by hardcore you mean little whiny, nerdy, no life, complainer, crapping on system on an irrelevant forum rather then playing their oh so fun hardcore games. Then i wouldproudly call myself a casual gamer.komdosina

agreed

they always seem to complain about something

[QUOTE="subrosian"]
This is what we mean with the hardcore vs casual debate. I get sick of hearing "there will always be a hardcore market" - no, there won't. Hollywood stopped making "hardcore" movies for the most part in the 70s / 80s - which is why such a movie as Pulp Fiction was a cult hit, as is Donnie Darko now. It's a rare thing for a decent movie to slip out.

I would love to see Metroid Prime with 360 quality visuals - it would be as breathtaking as Metroid Prime was when it first came out on the GCN. I hate to see the Wii holding back series that relied heavily on visual storytelling.
IAmRodyle

You're comparing two different industries. The hardcore market has been alive since the dawn of the gaming industry - why, after one console with casual appeal (as if it was the first), would it suddenly disappear? Will hardcores just lose interest in gaming if they have to avoid purchasing shovelware? They'll stop buying hardcore games? Believe it or not, it is still a profitable target audience, just overshadowed by the new market Nintendo is trying to pull in.

And how did Metroid rely heavily on visual storytelling? If I remember my playing of the games, the depth of the story comes from the various lore scans throughout. And even then, it isn't the story at all that the game relies "heavily" on. If anything, it's the raw gameplay its been praised for (which no casual could ever sit through).

You know, back in the day, before all this "scanning" nonsense, there was a great game called Super Metroid. Me and all my friends were obsessed with it, and we'd get completely sucked in. And you know what? The ONLY place where there was ANY text at all was at the beginning and end. You literally went the whole game with no dialogue, and yet it felt like you were living out the story through your accomplishments. Super Metroid was truly a work of art, and a giant chunk of it was in the visuals. Super Metroid is the apitimy of visual storytelling.

And what are we getting with Metroid Prime 3? A game that looks quite similar to Metroid Prime 2 (which is regarded by many to not be as good as Metroid Prime 1), with the addition of waggle controls and some voice acting. It will probably be good, but it does not look like it will be as worthy a successor to the Metroid Legacy as the first Prime was, especially since it does not have amazing visuals to suck you into the world.

Whiny theard starters is why I hate the word hardcore for gamers. If by hardcore you mean little whiny, nerdy, no life, complainer, crapping on system on an irrelevant forum rather then playing their oh so fun hardcore games. Then i wouldproudly call myself a casual gamer.komdosina

I'm guessing you're someone who judges success based on sales rather than quality.

Well, just because some developers are making games that cater to the new audiences, doesn't mean Blizzard, Valve, Retro Studios, Intelligent Systems, Capcom, Namco, Tecmo, SquareEnix,Crytek, et cetera, et cetera will stop making the type of games they make. Does it?

I mean, does the presence of a movie like "Ratatouille" annihilate the existence of a movie like "Hostel Part 2"? Somehow I doubt it.ZebethOrZebes

Ratatouille will be 10x the movie that Hostel 2 is. Brad Bird is a genious when it comes to animation. Hostel is just smut and snuf rolled up into a big paper doobie and smoked through the viewers butt crack.

[QUOTE="komdosina"]Whiny theard starters is why I hate the word hardcore for gamers. If by hardcore you mean little whiny, nerdy, no life, complainer, crapping on system on an irrelevant forum rather then playing their oh so fun hardcore games. Then i wouldproudly call myself a casual gamer.Timstuff

I'm guessing you're someone who judges success based on sales rather than quality.

nah mate. He's just not so obsessed with games like you guys

[QUOTE="IAmRodyle"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]
This is what we mean with the hardcore vs casual debate. I get sick of hearing "there will always be a hardcore market" - no, there won't. Hollywood stopped making "hardcore" movies for the most part in the 70s / 80s - which is why such a movie as Pulp Fiction was a cult hit, as is Donnie Darko now. It's a rare thing for a decent movie to slip out.

I would love to see Metroid Prime with 360 quality visuals - it would be as breathtaking as Metroid Prime was when it first came out on the GCN. I hate to see the Wii holding back series that relied heavily on visual storytelling.
Timstuff

You're comparing two different industries. The hardcore market has been alive since the dawn of the gaming industry - why, after one console with casual appeal (as if it was the first), would it suddenly disappear? Will hardcores just lose interest in gaming if they have to avoid purchasing shovelware? They'll stop buying hardcore games? Believe it or not, it is still a profitable target audience, just overshadowed by the new market Nintendo is trying to pull in.

And how did Metroid rely heavily on visual storytelling? If I remember my playing of the games, the depth of the story comes from the various lore scans throughout. And even then, it isn't the story at all that the game relies "heavily" on. If anything, it's the raw gameplay its been praised for (which no casual could ever sit through).

You know, back in the day, before all this "scanning" nonsense, there was a great game called Super Metroid. Me and all my friends were obsessed with it, and we'd get completely sucked in. And you know what? The ONLY place where there was ANY text at all was at the beginning and end. You literally went the whole game with no dialogue, and yet it felt like you were living out the story through your accomplishments. Super Metroid was truly a work of art, and a giant chunk of it was in the visuals. Super Metroid is the apitimy of visual storytelling.

And what are we getting with Metroid Prime 3? A game that looks quite similar to Metroid Prime 2 (which is regarded by many to not be as good as Metroid Prime 1), with the addition of waggle controls and some voice acting. It will probably be good, but it does not look like it will be as worthy a successor to the Metroid Legacy as the first Prime was, especially since it does not have amazing visuals to suck you into the world.

There you get hung up on visuals. I was just as immeresed in Red Steel as I was in Gears of War. Just as long as I can have fun playing a game I don't care if I'm notsucked into a world by its visuals.

[QUOTE="ZebethOrZebes"]Well, just because some developers are making games that cater to the new audiences, doesn't mean Blizzard, Valve, Retro Studios, Intelligent Systems, Capcom, Namco, Tecmo, SquareEnix,Crytek, et cetera, et cetera will stop making the type of games they make. Does it?

I mean, does the presence of a movie like "Ratatouille" annihilate the existence of a movie like "Hostel Part 2"? Somehow I doubt it.Timstuff

Ratatouille will be 10x the movie that Hostel 2 is. Brad Bird is a genious when it comes to animation. Hostel is just smut and snuf rolled up into a big paper doobie and smoked through the viewers butt crack.

causals and non gamers are going to buy a system and sell it. than hardcore gamers.

really if you think this is wrong. than ps1,ps2 has been making it the same since day one.

there GAMES

no matter what is easy for you might be hard for someone else.

STOP IT!

All of the complex games are being made for Xbox 360/PS3, the "non-casual friendly" systems. So that is still a good sign that the hardcore complex games still are safe from "tarting it up and dumbing it down", to take Dan Rather's illustrious words.

If there will be any dumbing down of games, at least it will stay on the island of Nintendo and hopefully not infect the general innovative arc of Xbox 360/PS3 games.

See, the thing is, we (the hardcore/regular game crowd) are terribly fickle, and hard to please (see how the games rated below 8 get bashed). Casual/non gamers are easier to please, and there are presumably more of them, so *business* wise, it makes sense to cater to them. This is just what happens when any entertainment medium becomes popular. Let's look for parellels, yes?

Music: I'm a heavy metal fan. We have no heavy metal radio in my area. Why? Not as many heavy metal fans as there are fans of "mix" music, as in different genres.

Movies: Pirates of the Carribean 3 got pretty bad reviews by critics, yet is one of the best grossing movies of all time. Know why? The casual moviegoer knows the name, and there's a lot more of them than there are critics.

Xerlaoth

he speaks the truth... wii could ruin it for us all ... plus it gets boring after a few hours

Grandma Sue and Little Cousin Ivan is playing Wii. Great. These margins only buy 3-4 games a year if that. A hardcore buys 10-15-20 games a year.

This is what I'm afraid of. The casuals are stealing and sapping energy from the main source, us.PhoebusFlows

YOU CANTLABEL ages, since you go no facts to prove it.

watch what im going to say

6-13 ps1,ps2,ps3 owners. see

[QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="IAmRodyle"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]
This is what we mean with the hardcore vs casual debate. I get sick of hearing "there will always be a hardcore market" - no, there won't. Hollywood stopped making "hardcore" movies for the most part in the 70s / 80s - which is why such a movie as Pulp Fiction was a cult hit, as is Donnie Darko now. It's a rare thing for a decent movie to slip out.

I would love to see Metroid Prime with 360 quality visuals - it would be as breathtaking as Metroid Prime was when it first came out on the GCN. I hate to see the Wii holding back series that relied heavily on visual storytelling.
books83

You're comparing two different industries. The hardcore market has been alive since the dawn of the gaming industry - why, after one console with casual appeal (as if it was the first), would it suddenly disappear? Will hardcores just lose interest in gaming if they have to avoid purchasing shovelware? They'll stop buying hardcore games? Believe it or not, it is still a profitable target audience, just overshadowed by the new market Nintendo is trying to pull in.

And how did Metroid rely heavily on visual storytelling? If I remember my playing of the games, the depth of the story comes from the various lore scans throughout. And even then, it isn't the story at all that the game relies "heavily" on. If anything, it's the raw gameplay its been praised for (which no casual could ever sit through).

You know, back in the day, before all this "scanning" nonsense, there was a great game called Super Metroid. Me and all my friends were obsessed with it, and we'd get completely sucked in. And you know what? The ONLY place where there was ANY text at all was at the beginning and end. You literally went the whole game with no dialogue, and yet it felt like you were living out the story through your accomplishments. Super Metroid was truly a work of art, and a giant chunk of it was in the visuals. Super Metroid is the apitimy of visual storytelling.

And what are we getting with Metroid Prime 3? A game that looks quite similar to Metroid Prime 2 (which is regarded by many to not be as good as Metroid Prime 1), with the addition of waggle controls and some voice acting. It will probably be good, but it does not look like it will be as worthy a successor to the Metroid Legacy as the first Prime was, especially since it does not have amazing visuals to suck you into the world.

There you get hung up on visuals. I was just as immeresed in Red Steel as I was in Gears of War. Just as long as I can have fun playing a game I don't care if I'm notsucked into a world by its visuals.

Red Steel didn't just have bad graphics, it wasn't even fun! It was all around ghetto trash! Gears of War is an amazing game with genuinely FUN AND EXCITING GAMEPLAY. Gameplay and Graphics go together like peanut butter and jelly. If you only have Jelly (graphics), all you have is something sweet with no protien that will leave you without energy once the sugar rush wears off. With only peanut butter (gameplay), you've got something that's nutritious but real salty, but it just doesn't have enough razmataz to keep you excited. You need BOTH to have a truly balanced game, and that's what Nintendo fanboys seem incapable of understanding!

[QUOTE="IAmRodyle"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]
This is what we mean with the hardcore vs casual debate. I get sick of hearing "there will always be a hardcore market" - no, there won't. Hollywood stopped making "hardcore" movies for the most part in the 70s / 80s - which is why such a movie as Pulp Fiction was a cult hit, as is Donnie Darko now. It's a rare thing for a decent movie to slip out.

I would love to see Metroid Prime with 360 quality visuals - it would be as breathtaking as Metroid Prime was when it first came out on the GCN. I hate to see the Wii holding back series that relied heavily on visual storytelling.
Timstuff

You're comparing two different industries. The hardcore market has been alive since the dawn of the gaming industry - why, after one console with casual appeal (as if it was the first), would it suddenly disappear? Will hardcores just lose interest in gaming if they have to avoid purchasing shovelware? They'll stop buying hardcore games? Believe it or not, it is still a profitable target audience, just overshadowed by the new market Nintendo is trying to pull in.

And how did Metroid rely heavily on visual storytelling? If I remember my playing of the games, the depth of the story comes from the various lore scans throughout. And even then, it isn't the story at all that the game relies "heavily" on. If anything, it's the raw gameplay its been praised for (which no casual could ever sit through).

You know, back in the day, before all this "scanning" nonsense, there was a great game called Super Metroid. Me and all my friends were obsessed with it, and we'd get completely sucked in. And you know what? The ONLY place where there was ANY text at all was at the beginning and end. You literally went the whole game with no dialogue, and yet it felt like you were living out the story through your accomplishments. Super Metroid was truly a work of art, and a giant chunk of it was in the visuals. Super Metroid is the apitimy of visual storytelling.

And what are we getting with Metroid Prime 3? A game that looks quite similar to Metroid Prime 2 (which is regarded by many to not be as good as Metroid Prime 1), with the addition of waggle controls and some voice acting. It will probably be good, but it does not look like it will be as worthy a successor to the Metroid Legacy as the first Prime was, especially since it does not have amazing visuals to suck you into the world.

If a 2D sidescroller had enough visual potential to stimulate the mind and suck you into a world, then any game can, regardless of the technical quality of the graphics. Art direction, design, and mood can all be determining factors in a game's immersion factor. You might think that the cutting edge of graphical capability is what is needed to immerse oneself in the game, but in reality, most people are fine with it. You might prefer what the 360 and PS3 can show, sure, but I really feel sorry that you can't stand to look at graphics at a slightly better quality than last gen. So these are the hardcores? I see...:roll:

Don't like scanning? You don't have to. Maybe once in a while, but that's the essence of Metroid. It's why it's not compared to Halo as much as people want to. Half of the game is logical. Why it was implimented was that now it had entered a 3D universe, and if anything struck you as curious, you could find out more about it, stumble upon clues, etc. This is hardcore gaming - something casuals would never play. No, it doesn't sound fun to a lot of people, and with good reason - casuals love action, not so much stopping to study their environment. Sure, it's not like the original Metroid games. But that's like comparing Prince of Persia to its original title, or even Super Mario 64 to Mario Bros.