Mario Kart Wii vs. ModNation Racers (PS3)

[QUOTE="farnham"]

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]The fact that you are using sales to argue for Mario Kart's "superiority" hints that you are a bit insecure about it. Modern Warfare 2 sold more in a week than Bad Company 2 sold in its entire run, but does that make it a better game?Malta_1980

yeah but ever thought how would MK be received/sell if it didnt have those familiar characters from Nintendo franchises?? or else if there was no MARIO in the title....

As i said MK is a great game, but MNR improved on every gameplay aspect along better online & also the additional creation/customisation of karts/tracks & mods..

[QUOTE="Mario1331"]

[QUOTE="Krigen89"]No, not at all. ales represent what people bought because they thought they'd like it. Or what families by for their kids/nephews. Or familiar brand names. If you asked any of my uncles/aunts "hey it's a kid's birthday, should I buy him MNR or MKW? They're both kart games!" of course they're gonna go with Mario for the wow factor... yet they know nothing about both games.

Malta_1980

well mario is the better game,its more fun and MNR lacks the most important part....racing it could have all the create/play/share it wont but it wont save it from the most important part.

Seriously MK fans, just stop the nonsense of saying MNR lacks in gameplay/racing... They just feel different when it comes to racing.. MK's racing mechanics are nothing extraordinary... Both games offer solid gameplay..

theres nothing with admitting the truth just because MNR fans wanted it to be the "mario kart killer".

it lacks in the racing department it feels sluggish and heavy still a good game but it aint nothing it was cranked out to be

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

Seriously MK fans, just stop the nonsense of saying MNR lacks in gameplay/racing... They just feel different when it comes to racing.. MK's racing mechanics are nothing extraordinary... Both games offer solid gameplay..

Malta_1980

well there is no use wasting time debating with you.. biased people are biased.. The end

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="bowser3"]

Ive had more fun with Modnation Racers than mario kart.

bowser3

So just because im a playstation fan and I like the Killzone Series, means i have never played Mario Kart Wii? Well dont mind me, ill just stick to my opinion....:roll:

unless you are saying

opinion of Playstation fanboys in forums>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the choice of the market

[QUOTE="mrmusicman247"][QUOTE="Mario1331"]

well mario is the better game,its more fun and MNR lacks the most important part....racing it could have all the create/play/share it wont but it wont save it from the most important part.

dotWithShoes

Give me an example.

[QUOTE="Mario1331"]

[QUOTE="Krigen89"]No, not at all. ales represent what people bought because they thought they'd like it. Or what families by for their kids/nephews. Or familiar brand names. If you asked any of my uncles/aunts "hey it's a kid's birthday, should I buy him MNR or MKW? They're both kart games!" of course they're gonna go with Mario for the wow factor... yet they know nothing about both games.

mrmusicman247

well mario is the better game,its more fun and MNR lacks the most important part....racing it could have all the create/play/share it wont but it wont save it from the most important part.

whats so good about MNR to make it better. please enlighten me

it seems like everytime a poster has legitimate reasons to why MNR is not better then MK all the MNR defenders start giving off these vague answers that dont prove anything. if you like the game better good for you but that doesnt mean its the better game

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"]

nothing to do with insecurity. its simple fact that consumers vote with their money

and mk wii won that vote 20 million vs. less then 1 million

farnham

yeah but ever thought how would MK be received/sell if it didnt have those familiar characters from Nintendo franchises?? or else if there was no MARIO in the title....

As i said MK is a great game, but MNR improved on every gameplay aspect along better online & also the additional creation/customisation of karts/tracks & mods..

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] no it just lacks sales therefore its an unsignificant title the endfarnham

well there is no use wasting time debating with you.. biased people are biased.. The end

no you just state the obvious that Wii games with mario in it sell well...

give me the list of million selling games on Wii and we'll see how many of them dont have Mario/Metroid/or any other Nintendo character in it.. :)

come on test me...

[QUOTE="farnham"]

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

yeah but ever thought how would MK be received/sell if it didnt have those familiar characters from Nintendo franchises?? or else if there was no MARIO in the title....

As i said MK is a great game, but MNR improved on every gameplay aspect along better online & also the additional creation/customisation of karts/tracks & mods..

Malta_1980

dude unless you are 10 and you cant reason in a mature way, you know as much as anyone in here that shold MK been released under the name 'Speed Karts' with totally unknown characters it wouldnt have sold 50% of what it did and most probably wouldnt be rated that high..

and dont get back to me with 'you cannot prove that', we know that hype/well loved game franchises do help push sales/scores...

[QUOTE="farnham"]

Mod Nation Racers got outsold from MKWii in its launch month despite MKWii being out for about 2 years

i guess that says everything

contrary to PS3 fanboy beliefs

MKWii>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MNR

and the consumer, unlike the PS3 fanboy, knows it

Timstuff

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] no it just lacks sales therefore its an unsignificant title the endfarnham

well there is no use wasting time debating with you.. biased people are biased.. The end

Hi, I'm not a publisher. I'm a consumer.I do not care what the public thinks. I care about my own opinion. I know that's biased because that's the point of this discussion! I think MKWii is a better game. Does that mean that someone is wrong because they think MNR is better?

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]

[QUOTE="farnham"]

Mod Nation Racers got outsold from MKWii in its launch month despite MKWii being out for about 2 years

i guess that says everything

contrary to PS3 fanboy beliefs

MKWii>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MNR

and the consumer, unlike the PS3 fanboy, knows it

Midnightshade29

stop catching feelings im open to debate how is MNR the better kart racer? because what farnham is saying is that scores and sales prove otherwise....

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]

[QUOTE="farnham"]

Mod Nation Racers got outsold from MKWii in its launch month despite MKWii being out for about 2 years

i guess that says everything

contrary to PS3 fanboy beliefs

MKWii>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MNR

and the consumer, unlike the PS3 fanboy, knows it

Midnightshade29

[QUOTE="mrmusicman247"][QUOTE="Mario1331"]

well mario is the better game,its more fun and MNR lacks the most important part....racing it could have all the create/play/share it wont but it wont save it from the most important part.

Mario1331

whats so good about MNR to make it better. please enlighten me

it seems like everytime a poster has legitimate reasons to why MNR is not better then MK all the MNR defenders start giving off these vague answers that dont prove anything. if you like the game better good for you but that doesnt mean its the better game

here people have different tastes, the misconception is that MK fans believe MK is 'Highly Superior' to MNR... which is not..

Both games have solid gameplay

Both games have fun tracks

Both offer 4 player split screen

Both have online (MNR is better as a setup)

MNR though offers also creation/customisation...

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

well there is no use wasting time debating with you.. biased people are biased.. The end

Buckledant

Hi, I'm not a publisher. I'm a consumer.I do not care what the public thinks. I care about my own opinion. I know that's biased because that's the point of this discussion! I think MKWii is a better game. Does that mean that someone is wrong because they think MNR is better?

[QUOTE="Mario1331"]

[QUOTE="mrmusicman247"] Different=/=WorseMalta_1980

whats so good about MNR to make it better. please enlighten me

it seems like everytime a poster has legitimate reasons to why MNR is not better then MK all the MNR defenders start giving off these vague answers that dont prove anything. if you like the game better good for you but that doesnt mean its the better game

here people have different tastes, the misconception is that MK fans believe MK is 'Highly Superior' to MNR... which is not..

Both games have solid gameplay

Both games have fun tracks

Both offer 4 player split screen

Both have online (MNR is better as a setup)

MNR though offers also creation/customisation...

ok but they arent wrong with MK being the better kart racer.

it has memorable tracks(the created tracks only last but so long)

the gameplay in MK is a little slicker and the drift and MK is by far better thats not even debateable.

MNR is a fun game but im tired of everything sony makes suppose to be a "killer" to something and they always either flop or never meet expectations.

MNR is a good idea and is a good game but it doesnt give off that fun factor like MK does.

[QUOTE="bowser3"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] yeah a playstation fan with a killzone avatar the beacon of credibilityfarnham

So just because im a playstation fan and I like the Killzone Series, means i have never played Mario Kart Wii? Well dont mind me, ill just stick to my opinion....:roll:

unless you are saying

opinion of Playstation fanboys in forums>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the choice of the market

Yes, i know, the majority of gamers prefer Mario Kart over Modnation. I was just saying that I enjoyed modnation more than mario kart wii.

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

dude unless you are 10 and you cant reason in a mature way, you know as much as anyone in here that shold MK been released under the name 'Speed Karts' with totally unknown characters it wouldnt have sold 50% of what it did and most probably wouldnt be rated that high..

and dont get back to me with 'you cannot prove that', we know that hype/well loved game franchises do help push sales/scores...

farnham

well you wrongly assume that sales reflect quality... going by that logic, considering 360 & PS3 are Technically superior in every way, Wii shouldnt be outselling them.. because that would directly be in conflict to what you are trying to say.. that sales somehow 'prove' which is better..

[QUOTE="farnham"]

[QUOTE="bowser3"]

So just because im a playstation fan and I like the Killzone Series, means i have never played Mario Kart Wii? Well dont mind me, ill just stick to my opinion....:roll:

bowser3

unless you are saying

opinion of Playstation fanboys in forums>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the choice of the market

Yes, i know, the majority of gamers prefer Mario Kart over Modnation. I was just saying that I enjoyed modnation more than mario kart wii.

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="Mario1331"]

whats so good about MNR to make it better. please enlighten me

it seems like everytime a poster has legitimate reasons to why MNR is not better then MK all the MNR defenders start giving off these vague answers that dont prove anything. if you like the game better good for you but that doesnt mean its the better game

Mario1331

here people have different tastes, the misconception is that MK fans believe MK is 'Highly Superior' to MNR... which is not..

Both games have solid gameplay

Both games have fun tracks

Both offer 4 player split screen

Both have online (MNR is better as a setup)

MNR though offers also creation/customisation...

ok but they arent wrong with MK being the better kart racer.

it has memorable tracks(the created tracks only last but so long)

the gameplay in MK is a little slicker and the drift and MK is by far better thats not even debateable.

MNR is a fun game but im tired of everything sony makes suppose to be a "killer" to something and they always either flop or never meet expectations.

MNR is a good idea and is a good game but it doesnt give off that fun factor like MK does.

Only fanboys can say that MK is an average game, cause its not.. its a solid kart racing game...

MNR is also a great kart racer, it doesnt have to sell 10 million copies to be regarded as a great game... with its solid gameplay, solid offline/online & community its more than enough to make it a 'must buy' for those into kart games..

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

dude unless you are 10 and you cant reason in a mature way, you know as much as anyone in here that shold MK been released under the name 'Speed Karts' with totally unknown characters it wouldnt have sold 50% of what it did and most probably wouldnt be rated that high..

and dont get back to me with 'you cannot prove that', we know that hype/well loved game franchises do help push sales/scores...

Malta_1980

well you wrongly assume that sales reflect quality... going by that logic, considering 360 & PS3 are Technically superior in every way, Wii shouldnt be outselling them.. because that would directly be in conflict to what you are trying to say.. that sales somehow 'prove' which is better..

[QUOTE="Mario1331"]

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

here people have different tastes, the misconception is that MK fans believe MK is 'Highly Superior' to MNR... which is not..

Both games have solid gameplay

Both games have fun tracks

Both offer 4 player split screen

Both have online (MNR is better as a setup)

MNR though offers also creation/customisation...

Malta_1980

ok but they arent wrong with MK being the better kart racer.

it has memorable tracks(the created tracks only last but so long)

the gameplay in MK is a little slicker and the drift and MK is by far better thats not even debateable.

MNR is a fun game but im tired of everything sony makes suppose to be a "killer" to something and they always either flop or never meet expectations.

MNR is a good idea and is a good game but it doesnt give off that fun factor like MK does.

Only fanboys can say that MK is an average game, cause its not.. its a solid kart racing game...

MNR is also a great kart racer, it doesnt have to sell 10 million copies to be regarded as a great game... with its solid gameplay, solid offline/online & community its more than enough to make it a 'must buy' for those into kart games..

i agree with you but MK is a better kart racer i didnt say that much better im just saying it is a better kart racer overall.

and btw i wasnt even arguing with you i was arguing with that PS fanboy that jumps in a conversation gives his two cents and never responds back.

its two of them that actually do that

[QUOTE="Buckledant"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] yup thats what im saying sales are clearly stating that MKWii is loved by the public why Mod Nation Racers is clearly not. So clearly MKWii is the better product for any publisher saying that ModNation Racers is better just because it suits your personal taste better is pure biasfarnham

Hi, I'm not a publisher. I'm a consumer.I do not care what the public thinks. I care about my own opinion. I know that's biased because that's the point of this discussion! I think MKWii is a better game. Does that mean that someone is wrong because they think MNR is better?

Nowhere in the OP does it say anything about sales nor how happy the publisher is. He argued that due to a better online and the customization options that he found MNR more fun. Now I'm going to assume that he wanted the opinions of other people on what constituted the arguably better game. well thats great. the reality is though that nobody cares about the opinon of single individuals (that includes my opinion as well). publishers care about money and money is made through sales and not props from fanboys. consumers care about their own taste and nothing more.. which means that a discussion about the superiority of a game is pointless. either you are talking about your personal taste which wont change anyway or you are talking about the perception by the publich which is measured by sales. thats actually all i was trying to say

[QUOTE="Mario1331"]

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

here people have different tastes, the misconception is that MK fans believe MK is 'Highly Superior' to MNR... which is not..

Both games have solid gameplay

Both games have fun tracks

Both offer 4 player split screen

Both have online (MNR is better as a setup)

MNR though offers also creation/customisation...

Malta_1980

ok but they arent wrong with MK being the better kart racer.

it has memorable tracks(the created tracks only last but so long)

the gameplay in MK is a little slicker and the drift and MK is by far better thats not even debateable.

MNR is a fun game but im tired of everything sony makes suppose to be a "killer" to something and they always either flop or never meet expectations.

MNR is a good idea and is a good game but it doesnt give off that fun factor like MK does.

Only fanboys can say that MK is an average game, cause its not.. its a solid kart racing game...

MNR is also a great kart racer, it doesnt have to sell 10 million copies to be regarded as a great game... with its solid gameplay, solid offline/online & community its more than enough to make it a 'must buy' for those into kart games..

And btw... mod nation is 1000x better then the tired old crappy mario kart, imo. Only a handful of characters, a stupid cheap plastic wheel, rubber-band ai, characters that i have grown tired of since the 16bit gen.... yeah I'll take Mod nation over that anyday... give me limitless characters, carts and tracks, give me fast frenetic racing with boost and traps, with HD graphics!!!Midnightshade29

quality is a subjective matter anyway there are way too many variables to measure quality because in the end its a personal matter of preferance. some people would buy anything with microsoft, sony, nintendo written on it others would buy games that only have the best graphics. others would only buy games with the music they prefer.. etc.. what we can say though is that a lot more people liked mario kart wii then modnation racers. therefore its a better productfarnham

You can say that, but that doesn't make it a better product, just a better selling product. Like you said, "quality is a subjective matter anyway there are way too many variables to measure quality because in the end its a personal matter of preferance".

[QUOTE="farnham"]

quality is a subjective matter anyway there are way too many variables to measure quality because in the end its a personal matter of preferance. some people would buy anything with microsoft, sony, nintendo written on it others would buy games that only have the best graphics. others would only buy games with the music they prefer.. etc.. what we can say though is that a lot more people liked mario kart wii then modnation racers. therefore its a better productcatfishmoon23

You can say that, but that doesn't make it a better product, just a better selling product. Like you said, "quality is a subjective matter anyway there are way too many variables to measure quality because in the end its a personal matter of preferance".

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] thats a mere hypothesis which is irrelevant because mario kart wii does use the mario franchise and got the scores it got and sold the numbers it sold. you can have your hypothetical speed karts game and claim the hypothetical superiority of modnation racers in an hypothetical thread. but as far as i know this is about mario kart wii and not some hypothetical game that doesnt existfarnham

well you wrongly assume that sales reflect quality... going by that logic, considering 360 & PS3 are Technically superior in every way, Wii shouldnt be outselling them.. because that would directly be in conflict to what you are trying to say.. that sales somehow 'prove' which is better..

thanks for finally understanding my point..

SOME would buy anything with Mario in it.... :) thats why maybe (just maybe) MK has sold that much.... with this am not saying MK is not great...

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

well you wrongly assume that sales reflect quality... going by that logic, considering 360 & PS3 are Technically superior in every way, Wii shouldnt be outselling them.. because that would directly be in conflict to what you are trying to say.. that sales somehow 'prove' which is better..

Malta_1980

thanks for finally understanding my point..

SOME would buy anything with Mario in it.... :) thats why maybe (just maybe) MK has sold that much.... with this am not saying MK is not great...

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

well you wrongly assume that sales reflect quality... going by that logic, considering 360 & PS3 are Technically superior in every way, Wii shouldnt be outselling them.. because that would directly be in conflict to what you are trying to say.. that sales somehow 'prove' which is better..

Malta_1980

thanks for finally understanding my point..

SOME would buy anything with Mario in it.... :) thats why maybe (just maybe) MK has sold that much.... with this am not saying MK is not great...

well since the main purpose of a product is to produce money it could be called a better productfarnham

The company's main purpose of the product is to produce money, so in that respect, MK Wii is definitely a better product for Nintendo than MNR is for Sony. Still, that doesn't make it the better overall product.

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] quality is a subjective matter anyway there are way too many variables to measure quality because in the end its a personal matter of preferance. some people would buy anything with microsoft, sony, nintendo written on it others would buy games that only have the best graphics. others would only buy games with the music they prefer.. etc.. what we can say though is that a lot more people liked mario kart wii then modnation racers. therefore its a better productfarnham

thanks for finally understanding my point..

SOME would buy anything with Mario in it.... :) thats why maybe (just maybe) MK has sold that much.... with this am not saying MK is not great...

there are much more important things in life which make me sleep better... gaming aint one of those..

also never said MK is a crappy game... but a good game with Mario in it will sell like crazy... an equally good game (new IP) most probably wont.. and MK fans like you will try to convince themselves & others that MK is better cause scores/sales prove that :)

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] quality is a subjective matter anyway there are way too many variables to measure quality because in the end its a personal matter of preferance. some people would buy anything with microsoft, sony, nintendo written on it others would buy games that only have the best graphics. others would only buy games with the music they prefer.. etc.. what we can say though is that a lot more people liked mario kart wii then modnation racers. therefore its a better productBuckledant

thanks for finally understanding my point..

SOME would buy anything with Mario in it.... :) thats why maybe (just maybe) MK has sold that much.... with this am not saying MK is not great...

well check again the Wii exclusives, and compare Mario games sales, with non-Mario games exclusives (great exclusives) and you'll get the answer... its not surprising though, games with mario in their title outsell anything else ;)

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

well there is no use wasting time debating with you.. biased people are biased.. The end

Malta_1980

no you just state the obvious that Wii games with mario in it sell well...

give me the list of million selling games on Wii and we'll see how many of them dont have Mario/Metroid/or any other Nintendo character in it.. :)

come on test me...

Monster Hunter 3 sold like crazy if I'm not mistaken

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

[QUOTE="farnham"] yup thats what im saying sales are clearly stating that MKWii is loved by the public why Mod Nation Racers is clearly not. So clearly MKWii is the better product for any publisher saying that ModNation Racers is better just because it suits your personal taste better is pure biasbobcheeseball

no you just state the obvious that Wii games with mario in it sell well...

give me the list of million selling games on Wii and we'll see how many of them dont have Mario/Metroid/or any other Nintendo character in it.. :)

come on test me...

Monster Hunter 3 sold like crazy if I'm not mistaken

seriously, you mentioned MH3... come one, monster hunter games sold like crazy even on PSP...

[QUOTE="Buckledant"][QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

thanks for finally understanding my point..

SOME would buy anything with Mario in it.... :) thats why maybe (just maybe) MK has sold that much.... with this am not saying MK is not great...

Malta_1980

well check again the Wii exclusives, and compare Mario games sales, with non-Mario games exclusives (great exclusives) and you'll get the answer... its not surprising though, games with mario in their title outsell anything else ;)

seriously, you mentioned MH3... come one, monster hunter games sold like crazy even on PSP...

Malta_1980

So basically no matter what someone says, you'll have an excuse as to why it should be disregarded, amirite?.

Resident Evil 4, Umbrella Chronicles, de Blob, Red Steel, Monster Hunter 3, Guitar Hero III, Call of Duty: World at War, Sonic and The Secret Rings, etc have all sold fairly well on the Wii, 'Million sellers' like you said.

mario kart online is better then MNR modnation racer feels heavy and is very unpolished. it doesnt even look that much better then mk wii in the first place.

itts a good start mnr but MKW is the better game

Mario1331

EDIT: This was a pretty bad thread to make IMO because Mario Karti Wii is the worst Mario Kart made.

Fans of MK should really try MNR out if you can, its great.

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

seriously, you mentioned MH3... come one, monster hunter games sold like crazy even on PSP...

Haziqonfire

So basically no matter what someone says, you'll have an excuse as to why it should be disregarded, amirite?.

Resident Evil 4, Umbrella Chronicles, de Blob, Red Steel, Monster Hunter 3, Guitar Hero III, Call of Duty: World at War, Sonic and The Secret Rings, etc have all sold fairly well on the Wii, 'Million sellers' like you said.

if you want to call them excuses be my guest.. again the majority of games you listed are not new IPS... also de Blob & red steel sold nowhere near games with mario in it... that was my point..

[QUOTE="farnham"][QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

custom content is great but over all i like the feel of mario kart . both are great games

Timstuff

I don't really enjoy either. I rented modnation and sent it back the next day. I played mario kart when I was younger and got my hands on the new one for a little bit but it seemed really slow. But if I had to pick, It would be Mario kart.

[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

seriously, you mentioned MH3... come one, monster hunter games sold like crazy even on PSP...

Malta_1980

So basically no matter what someone says, you'll have an excuse as to why it should be disregarded, amirite?.

Resident Evil 4, Umbrella Chronicles, de Blob, Red Steel, Monster Hunter 3, Guitar Hero III, Call of Duty: World at War, Sonic and The Secret Rings, etc have all sold fairly well on the Wii, 'Million sellers' like you said.

if you want to call them excuses be my guest.. again the majority of games you listed are not new IPS... also de Blob & red steel sold nowhere near games with mario in it... that was my point..

theres a million sellers on the wii,theres actually alot of them it just so happens that games that sell for the wii dont have to sell that much because they make a profit quicker, quite the opposite for the hd counterparts

[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]

[QUOTE="Malta_1980"]

seriously, you mentioned MH3... come one, monster hunter games sold like crazy even on PSP...

Malta_1980

So basically no matter what someone says, you'll have an excuse as to why it should be disregarded, amirite?.

Resident Evil 4, Umbrella Chronicles, de Blob, Red Steel, Monster Hunter 3, Guitar Hero III, Call of Duty: World at War, Sonic and The Secret Rings, etc have all sold fairly well on the Wii, 'Million sellers' like you said.

if you want to call them excuses be my guest.. again the majority of games you listed are not new IPS... also de Blob & red steel sold nowhere near games with mario in it... that was my point..

Did you really expect a new IP to immediately compete with Mario games? Mario is an established figure that pretty much outsells anything in the market.

I didn't like MNR's weapons very much, they're like an after thought. I do like the shield though. I like the MKW tracks much more. They're both lots of fun, but MKW is still the king imo.