MGS4's Plot is Melodramatic Garbage.

i don't understand how this game is heaped with praise when almost every explanation for everything in the game is either nanomachines or computer AIs.

for reference, YES, i have played all the other MGS games, and i know what i am talking about when i say that MGS4 has a bad story. coming off of MGS3 and 1 which had semi-decent narratives, here you have a story that is composed of incoherent ramblings and babbling nonsense that would make any 6th grade utterly confused.

[spoiler] case in point: the scene where naomi dies. what the hell. why does she kill the nanomachines suppressing her cancer--that cancer being the king of deus ex machinas, as it gives way to a convenient death and overly dramatic (and terribly acted) "sad scene"--right after otacon, raiden, and snake save her ass from a bisexual vampire? it's stupid, it's contrived, and it's downright silly. everyone calls this moment so sad, but it was goddamn ridiculous seeing otacon cry like a little baby while naomi an heroed, this whole farce being drawn out for nearly five minutes when all i wanted to do was tear ass with metal gear rex. cutscenes usually relax me from tense gameplay, but these cutscenes frustrate and irritate me immensely. [/spoiler]

why is this game given such accolades when everyone knows the narrative is among the worst in gaming? all plot devices are either cliched, silly, contrived, or told through fantastic repetition.

I haven't played too much of it to judge, but I've found the MGS series to have some god awful dialog.

The narrative is so damn terrible. A guy at school thinks it's cool, but it's so cliched man! It's so ridden with horrible dialogue and crappy acting. The gameplay is fine but really the narrative is terrible

Can I join in the hate too?

The narrative is so damn terrible. A guy at school thinks it's cool, but it's so cliched man! It's so ridden with horrible dialogue and crappy acting. The gameplay is fine but really the narrative is terrible

OB-47

MGS2 has an amazing story, MGS1 has a good story and MGS3 does as well... Never played 4 but it probably has a good story... Dialogue and "crappy voice acting" are because it was translated from japanese buddy... Seriously learn Japanese play it in its original form then trash it... I mean if Planescape got screwed up in translation would you be okay with it being trashed?

Here starts MGS4 hate train YAY!.

All the MGS games are like that. They have some of the worst writing in games.

All the MGS games are like that. They have some of the worst writing in games.

goblaa

[QUOTE="OB-47"]

The narrative is so damn terrible. A guy at school thinks it's cool, but it's so cliched man! It's so ridden with horrible dialogue and crappy acting. The gameplay is fine but really the narrative is terrible

Banjo_Kongfooie

MGS2 has an amazing story, MGS1 has a good story and MGS3 does as well... Never played 4 but it probably has a good story... Dialogue and "crappy voice acting" are because it was translated from japanese buddy... Seriously learn Japanese play it in its original form then trash it... I mean if Planescape got screwed up in translation would you be okay with it being trashed?

I buy the game, I expect I don't need to learn another whole language to enjoy it okay?

Secondly, even if translated, the amount and legnth of cutscenes is annoying, the gameplay and cinematics felt disjointed. Uncharted 2 and 3 have snappy dialogue between characters even when you're in gameplay, so when a cutscene comes, it feels seemless.

From the english version, the dialogue is terrible, and no matter how good the story is, it's presented terribly

[QUOTE="goblaa"]

All the MGS games are like that. They have some of the worst writing in games.

Banjo_Kongfooie

Something competently written in the first place, language notwithstanding.

why is this game given such accolades when everyone knows the narrative is among the worst in gaming?princeofshapeir

I agree. I would rather listen to Banjo and Kazooie squeak and bleep then watched 10 minutes of Movie Gear Solid.

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"][QUOTE="goblaa"]

All the MGS games are like that. They have some of the worst writing in games.

mmmwksil

Something competently written in the first place, language notwithstanding.

I would say blame the translation but it is very hard to be a translator and Japanese is a very different language than English...

Also hopefully you are not analyzing the series as a whole and saying it is not competently written... Because if you are going to say that about MGS4 it should be on its own story.

I mean name me games that you consider to have amazing stories and please do not mention Planescape or Xenosaga...

has mgs4 not been DC'd enough? seriously.. its been over 3 years. let's move on

It was way, way, way too convoluted...but i didn't think it was that bad, corny as hell and even embarrasing at times (you know what scene i'm talikng about, yes you, even the greatest MGS4 fan know it) yet a nice ending for long time fans.

I would say blame the translation but it is very hard to be a translator and Japanese is a very different language than English...

Also hopefully you are not analyzing the series as a whole and saying it is not competently written... Because if you are going to say that about MGS4 it should be on its own story.

I mean name me games that you consider to have amazing stories and please do not mention Planescape or Xenosaga...

Banjo_Kongfooie

I wouldn't mention either of those games, since I did not play one and hate the other.

To date I have not found a game that has an amazing story. I've found a few I like, but none that I'd hold to as high a regard as traditional literature.

Agreed. after crying at the End of MGS 3, I was expecting a masterpiece from MGS 4, but it was terrible and I rate it last place among all the MGS games.

They are translated from another language which is very different from English? What do you expect?Banjo_Kongfooie

Latin is a very similar langauge to English.

It had been a while since the latest "bash on MGS4" thread.

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]

I would say blame the translation but it is very hard to be a translator and Japanese is a very different language than English...

Also hopefully you are not analyzing the series as a whole and saying it is not competently written... Because if you are going to say that about MGS4 it should be on its own story.

I mean name me games that you consider to have amazing stories and please do not mention Planescape or Xenosaga...

mmmwksil

I wouldn't mention either of those games, since I did not play one and hate the other.

To date I have not found a game that has an amazing story. I've found a few I like, but none that I'd hold to as high a regard as traditional literature.

Well in comparison to other games which stories would you find to be outstanding (in comparison to games not other mediums).

It has been 3 years it's time to let it go.

I've always enjoyed the MGS series. My opinion, of course, but I really never found why its praised for the story. Especially MGS4. I guess my opinions on a bisexual nearly unkillable guy named vamp, a guy who essentially looks like Chris Tucker in the "Fifth Element" with a caffeine addicted monkey sidekick, and a guy who apparently has uncontrollable runs because he won't take the nanomachines to transform him into a member of a perfect military unit seems a bit silly.

Well in comparison to other games which stories would you find to be outstanding (in comparison to games not other mediums).

Banjo_Kongfooie

I'm no critic, but I can pick favorites like any other person. And I'd pick Final Fantasy IX, Persona 4, 999, Dragon Quest V, and Chrono Cross.

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]

Well in comparison to other games which stories would you find to be outstanding (in comparison to games not other mediums).

mmmwksil

I'm no critic, but I can pick favorites like any other person. And I'd pick Final Fantasy IX, Persona 4, 999, Dragon Quest V, and Chrono Cross.

I loved Chrono Cross's story (one of the best ost's imo as well)... But FFIX, I just do not see how you can diss MGS4's story yet claim that FFIX's story is amazing in comparison to other stories. I have yet to play the other two.

Oh wait you never claimed these were amazing game stories relative to other games... but you avoided the question and stated that they were your favorites and that you were no critic...

Yet you had no problem criticising the MGS series for its story? Further more you state that video game storylines are inferior to literature which is a critical statement regardless of whether most would agree or not.

I mean FFIX had some nice characters and good dialogue ( a good ost as well) but is the story really anything to right home about??

I loved Chrono Cross's story (one of the best ost's imo as well)... But FFIX, I just do not see how you can diss MGS4's story yet claim that FFIX's story is amazing in comparison to other stories. I have yet to play the other two.

Oh wait you never claimed these were amazing game stories relative to other games... but you avoided the question and stated that they were your favorites and that you were no critic...

Yet you had no problem criticising the MGS series for its story? Further more you state that video game storylines are inferior to literature which is a critical statement regardless of whether most would agree or not.

I mean FFIX had some nice characters and good dialogue ( a good ost as well) but is the story really anything to right home about??

Banjo_Kongfooie

I wasn't "dissing" MGS's story. I pointed out how you can't heap the blame on translation woes if the source material is weak to begin with. I don't know squat about the story of MGS, since I've never played the games. I have seen cutscenes of the most critical moments, and the writing was painful to behold.

And no, FFIX's story is nothing to write home about. FFIX's strength lies in its characters and their interactions.

I guess you could call that a criticism. Ha. Look at that.

oh, and I didn't notice at first but after thinking a bit, I totally disagree that MGS4's plot is melodramatic garbage. The problem with the plot is that it is padded to arrogant excess. Seriously, Hideo over explained every good idea to the maximum degree. If you could simplify that plot right down it is actually a very good one imo, especially since the first thing that would get axed would be the long, flowery, droning dialogue. I also prefer it when the plot elements happen in-game as opposed to cutscenes. That's tough to do in MGS but he could at least try. Imo he loves making those little movies way too much.

For me personally, the praise goes to the characters and world that Kojima has built. It truley is original and takes real world ideas and issues and explores them in a way most videogames don't. THe dialog is sometimes atrocious, but that is what makes it appealing in a way. The plot isn't perfect but the themes within the plot and they way the stroy moves along is whatreally makes the stroy special. That's my two cents.

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]

I loved Chrono Cross's story (one of the best ost's imo as well)... But FFIX, I just do not see how you can diss MGS4's story yet claim that FFIX's story is amazing in comparison to other stories. I have yet to play the other two.

Oh wait you never claimed these were amazing game stories relative to other games... but you avoided the question and stated that they were your favorites and that you were no critic...

Yet you had no problem criticising the MGS series for its story? Further more you state that video game storylines are inferior to literature which is a critical statement regardless of whether most would agree or not.

I mean FFIX had some nice characters and good dialogue ( a good ost as well) but is the story really anything to right home about??

mmmwksil

I wasn't "dissing" MGS's story. I pointed out how you can't heap the blame on translation woes if the source material is weak to begin with. I don't know squat about the story of MGS, since I've never played the games. I have seen cutscenes of the most critical moments, and the writing was painful to behold.

And no, FFIX's story is nothing to write home about. FFIX's strength lies in its characters and their interactions.

I guess you could call that a criticism. Ha. Look at that.

Ha well you like FFIX's story because of the characters and their interactions appart from acouple characters who are blatantly ignored and left undeveloped imo I agree that FFIX had a strong cast of characters (and the motifs that the creators assign to each character and shows the player is a brilliant move imo that really aids in portraying the characters)...

However MGS has quite a few underlying themes such as Nature vs Nurture, privacy vs. security, etc... then there are thought provoking topics such as nuclear disarmment, cloning, etc. That imo puts the story line of many mgs games above the typical game.

I would also put FFIX ahead of many games in terms of storylines. I am not saying that the Metal Gear Solid franchise is flawless in its storytelling. Surely as a series it is convoluted and full of plot holes.

However I feel that each story in the Main franchise is above average (I would include Peace Walker in this).

In my view the first and second metal gear solid have amazing stories.

Ha well you like FFIX's story because of the characters and their interactions appart from acouple characters who are blatantly ignored and left undeveloped imo I agree that FFIX had a strong cast of characters (and the motifs that the creators assign to each character and shows the player is a brilliant move imo that really aids in portraying the characters)...

However MGS has quite a few underlying themes such as Nature vs Nurture, privacy vs. security, etc... then there are thought provoking topics such as nuclear disarmment, cloning, etc. That imo puts the story line of many mgs games above the typical game.

I would also put FFIX ahead of many games in terms of storylines. I am not saying that the Metal Gear Solid franchise is flawless in its storytelling. Surely as a series it is convoluted and full of plot holes.

However I feel that each story in the Main franchise is above average (I would include Peace Walker in this).

In my view the first and second metal gear solid have amazing stories.

Banjo_Kongfooie

Tales of the Abyss tried to address the question of the ethics of cloning. It might've been a poorly handled attempt, but it was an honest effort nonetheless.

Unfortunately, since I do not know more about MGS, I cannot continue this discussion.

[QUOTE="mmmwksil"]

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]

I loved Chrono Cross's story (one of the best ost's imo as well)... But FFIX, I just do not see how you can diss MGS4's story yet claim that FFIX's story is amazing in comparison to other stories. I have yet to play the other two.

Oh wait you never claimed these were amazing game stories relative to other games... but you avoided the question and stated that they were your favorites and that you were no critic...

Yet you had no problem criticising the MGS series for its story? Further more you state that video game storylines are inferior to literature which is a critical statement regardless of whether most would agree or not.

I mean FFIX had some nice characters and good dialogue ( a good ost as well) but is the story really anything to right home about??

Banjo_Kongfooie

I wasn't "dissing" MGS's story. I pointed out how you can't heap the blame on translation woes if the source material is weak to begin with. I don't know squat about the story of MGS, since I've never played the games. I have seen cutscenes of the most critical moments, and the writing was painful to behold.

And no, FFIX's story is nothing to write home about. FFIX's strength lies in its characters and their interactions.

I guess you could call that a criticism. Ha. Look at that.

Ha well you like FFIX's story because of the characters and their interactions appart from acouple characters who are blatantly ignored and left undeveloped imo I agree that FFIX had a strong cast of characters (and the motifs that the creators assign to each character and shows the player is a brilliant move imo that really aids in portraying the characters)...

However MGS has quite a few underlying themes such as Nature vs Nurture, privacy vs. security, etc... then there are thought provoking topics such as nuclear disarmment, cloning, etc. That imo puts the story line of many mgs games above the typical game.

I would also put FFIX ahead of many games in terms of storylines. I am not saying that the Metal Gear Solid franchise is flawless in its storytelling. Surely as a series it is convoluted and full of plot holes.

However I feel that each story in the Main franchise is above average (I would include Peace Walker in this).

In my view the first and second metal gear solid have amazing stories.

This is what I really love about MGS. You can see that even the boss fights are well thought out, as they even have meaning. They are always apart of this collective whole.

Haven't played MGS4 but I really want to. MGS3 was awesome, working on MGS2, and haven't played 1 either. I love the games, but I have heard from my buddy that the whole plot is, to quote him:

"Lol."

Guess I'll find out myself one of these days. And hey I'd rather it be overdramatic and laughable than just straight up dull and interesting.

For me personally, the praise goes to the characters and world that Kojima has built. It truley is original and takes real world ideas and issues and explores them in a way most videogames don't. THe dialog is sometimes atrocious, but that is what makes it appealing in a way. The plot isn't perfect but the themes within the plot and they way the stroy moves along is whatreally makes the stroy special. That's my two cents.

15strong

Agreed... people take it as the pinnacle of story telling but it is a vehicle that goes through an above average video game story to bring important issues to the player's attention.

I do agree that part of the allure of the MGS universe is the style (cyberpunk, the codex screen, etc.) and extraordinary characters...

I mean there are games that offer a better told stories imo (Chrono Cross is one in my view and SOTC, Indigo Prophecy, etc.).

Noone is claiming that any MGS game is the pinnacle of story telling in this topic but that together the story and gameplay much like many other games offer a great experience.

I know some criticisms of MGS2 bash its storytelling as being "Pseudo-philosophical" and I am sure they do that to MGS4 as well... The thing about that term though is that you can not have fake philosophy... Sure you can have shallow or amateurish attempts at portraying philosophical concepts but where are these philosophical concepts in other games.

In my view MGS does not portray to have a mastery of material it presents you... it just merely introduces it and gives you a version of what presumabley Hideo Kojima feels on the topic (examples; nuclear disarmment and Nature vs Nurture).

If you acually listened to the dialogue, Naomi was basically just a zombie. She was dead anyway because the cancer had spread so much and the nanos couldent even hold it off anymore.

Yep it is. So what. Overly melodramatic is better than being completely boring.

If you acually listened to the dialogue, Naomi was basically just a zombie. She was dead anyway because the cancer had spread so much and the nanos couldent even hold it off anymore.

lucky_star

in my view this is a commentary that no matter how much humans try to achieve immortality, it is futile as we are all ephemeral beings inhabiting this harsh planet.

How there will always be something which humans can only treat rather than cure.

[QUOTE="15strong"]

For me personally, the praise goes to the characters and world that Kojima has built. It truley is original and takes real world ideas and issues and explores them in a way most videogames don't. THe dialog is sometimes atrocious, but that is what makes it appealing in a way. The plot isn't perfect but the themes within the plot and they way the stroy moves along is whatreally makes the stroy special. That's my two cents.

Banjo_Kongfooie

Agreed... people take it as the pinnacle of story telling but it is a vehicle that goes through an above average video game story to bring important issues to the player's attention.

I do agree that part of the allure of the MGS universe is the style (cyberpunk, the codex screen, etc.) and extraordinary characters...

I mean there are games that offer a better told stories imo (Chrono Cross is one in my view and SOTC, Indigo Prophecy, etc.).

Noone is claiming that any MGS game is the pinnacle of story telling in this topic but that together the story and gameplay much like many other games offer a great experience.

I know some criticisms of MGS2 bash its storytelling as being "Pseudo-philosophical" and I am sure they do that to MGS4 as well... The thing about that term though is that you can not have fake philosophy... Sure you can have shallow or amateurish attempts at portraying philosophical concepts but where are these philosophical concepts in other games.

In my view MGS does not portray to have a mastery of material it presents you... it just merely introduces it and gives you a version of what presumabley Hideo Kojima feels on the topic (examples; nuclear disarmment and Nature vs Nurture).

I think the best story ever told in a videogame is Braid.

Storywise for me, MGS4 is the hardest to follow out of all the other games in the series

It's a convoluted, mecha filled, emo, and overdramatic exaggerated version of Splinter Cell.

It's the 'Twilight' of espionage games.

Everybody knows this except the most rabid MGS fans, the story is pretty crap, Kojima is the equivalent of Paul W.S. Anderson ( they guy that directs those awful B movies)

I had to check the date in my DeLorean Time Machine to see that it wasn't 2008. Nope, still 2011, and somehow people are complaining about a 3 year old game they don't happen to like.

I agree that braid has a well done story

Everybody knows this except the most rabid MGS fans, the story is pretty crap, Kojima is the equivalent of Paul W.S. Anderson ( they guy that directs those awful B movies)

musalala

Noone ever said the story was astonishing in this topic... moreso that it is used as a vehicle to promote the discussion of important issues as well as portray some themes that may be rather common place in the literary world such as nature vs nurture but as absent from many games...

What games do you feel have amazing stories since you are making a point that MGS's story is crap..

Also I forgot to mention this earlier but criticising MGS's story for being over the top is like criticising FFIX's battle system as being too slow and traditional when that is somewhat of the point.

MGS in my view presents interesting characters but makes them act in over the top and cliche ways so that more focus is thrusted to the themes, issues, and motifs. The characters themselves really are not the point of them MGS games imo.

I had to check the date in my DeLorean Time Machine to see that it wasn't 2008. Nope, still 2011, and somehow people are complaining about a 3 year old game they don't happen to like.

SPYDER0416

I have the game, the mechanics is fine. I just hope in the interest of upping it's predecessors Rising or MGS5 doesn't try too hard to make an indepth story line.

It's like those old cloak and dagger films where a group of people are finallyat a stand off pointing guns at each other and everyone is trying to figure out who is on who's side and ulterior motives are revealed, double-triple and quadruple crossess happen and some over top reason why the main culprit does the things they do explaining all seemingly insignificant and unrelated events were all part of their doing.

as complex as my analogy is above, it's Sesame street in comparrison to MGS4's take on this genre.

You haters are in the minority. The majority of gamers and journalists agree that MGS series is the epitome of videogame acting and storytelling that not only serve as the sole credence to videogames being high art, but also that it's oscar worthy and is equivalent to Citizen Kane. It did not receieve numerous perfect scores and GOTY for nothing.

You haters are in the minority. The majority of gamers and journalists agree that MGS series is the epitome of videogame acting and storytelling that not only serve as the sole credence to videogames being high art, but also that it's oscar worthy and is equivalent to Citizen Kane. It did not receieve numerous perfect scores and GOTY for nothing.

runbleduck

If you want a deep metaphorical gaming experience where everything actually means something you should look to Wind Waker and Shadow of the Colossus. Video game story telling at its finest and most honorable. I can't think of any games that are better to represent the industry as an art form