Coolyfett needs a good story, being there is so much reading involved in it. If Coolyfett is going to be reading reading reading it better be entertaining, also exploration is very important and character development. If someone in your party dies we need to feel something other then "oh well"
Most important element that makes an RPG, an RPG?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="TheOtherTheoG"]Stats, character progression, levelling, etc. The difference being that, if a game lacks this, it does not automatically make the game worse, it just makes it less of an RPG, which has no effect on the game's quality, just what sub category it fits into. If a game doesnt have an epic story, choice and consequence, freedom and exploration, it doesn't make it automatically not an RPG, but it does make the game worse than one that does, as long as the story/choice+consequence/freedom is done well.MrSelf-DestructThe problem is how people view it in general. The forget that reason stat are even in rpg in the first place. The fact that D&D was pen and paper only. You can't kill a dragon in your living room. You have to use your imagination and stat just told you if you were successful. With a video game, especially now, you don't need all that. In D&D you used stats to create your character. They defined you and determined how well you would do in combat. That's exactly what they do in a video game RPG. A game without those stats and that kind of character building system would not be an RPG. We're talking about what is most important to an RPG, what makes the genre different from all others, and the stats are definitely it. The way you are defining Roleplaying would make most games these days an RPG. Let's focus on what it takes to fall under the RPG category in the traditional sense, shall we? But you don't need that to that the extreme of D&D. In a video game, do you need to roll to see the chances of Dodging an attack, or chances of hitting someone......No. You just roll out of the way and if they are in the path of your sword, they get hit. The stats just see how much damage you can take, how much you damage you can give, what type of damage you can give and how long you can attack with that type of damage....... Why have a dodge roll when you can do it your self. I'm not say stats are not important in rpgs, even ME2 has some stats with powers, attack, and defense. It just that it's not as important as it use to be. With D&D everything is stats.
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"][QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]Demon souls is exploration and combat skill. Heck, Demon souls has no stats. And it the traditionalist that are complaining.dreman999Wrong again. In Demon's Souls your stats and character build are vital to the combat and how you fair. The game is so highly praised for the gameplay. I agree. But the stats are an integral part of that gameplay. If you were just given a single character with limited customization options there would be little fun in getting your ass owned until you level up to the point of being a badass and punishing everything you go up against. Demon's Souls is an amazing example of why leveling and character building is so much fun. You live and die by skill, souls and gear. It's the exploration and combat that keeps you coming back. No one bought DS because it has stats, it because of the combat and challenge. When I recommend the game to friends, It talk about the combat, the world, and the difficulty....Not the stats. *facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that.
*facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that. MrSelf-DestructGonna have to disagree here, stats are in-place of physical ability in the real world, but in a game, there's very little need for what can be manually controlled, like whoever's above you said, passive stats like dodge/parry, being passive is unnecessary since it's a game. I find that it makes the combat dull if you make passive defense stats and hit stats.
I'm fine with damage related stats, and maybe a passive resistance to something that's unavoidable/extremely hard to avoid(assuming the reason it's hard to avoid isn't the fact that the game's combat is cheap, rather than actually difficult).
After reading through this tread i noticed the single most imporant aspect of RPG isn't in the poll.
Variation is always the most important aspect of a RPG because it covers forms of exploration, LvLing, combat and moral choices.
Variation is in every game but a RPG is completely based on variation, where other 'genre's' aren't.
[QUOTE="dreman999"]The video states that the abilitie choices and gear choices are really mask calculations and you just making the same choice as everyone else for best build......And you say it proves you point that stats are key to all rpgs?.........That is not logical. And they used it as an example. It does not make it the most important part of rpgs. Especially when the most popular rpgs are not heavy stat based. I'm not saying it not important, I'm just saying it not the most important. Anyone with would make a stat, level,gear based rpg will find it that everyone would hate it. We just don't play rpgs for that. People use the best gear they can find. If everyone already gets the best gear then it makes sense that they are all using the same stuff. However, the gear is just a part of the stats. What defines a blood mage or a high elf or what have you? Is their goal still not to level up and become badass enough to compete in PVP and beat all the quests and raids? Without all that stuff everyone would be on a level playing field and you could just run straight through the game. WoW would not be as popular as it is today if that were the case, I promise you. These people want to grind. If they didn't they would probably find better ways to spend their money. I play RPGs for leveling and character building. For epic stories I play... well... pretty much anything else. :P WOW is losing popularity because of this exact case. Many, many people are moving to Rift because of this. Just because you have a different perfect build for different aspect of the game, does not mean that people are not find they are just building the samething. If you want to see diversity in build making....Real diversity, look up rift. I can make a telaporting sniper in the game.[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"] That in no way disproves my point. It actually supports it. They complain that the leveling and gear system is flawed. They wouldn't complain if they didn't care about it. ;) MrSelf-Destruct
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]
That's not quite the same. Making a morale decision is a weak form of roleplaying. You basically just called InFamous and GTA4 and Heavy Rain RPGs. The truth is that we play a role in most every game. In some of those games we get slightly deeper interaction than we do in others. The important aspect of an RPG that sets it apart from other genre isn't having control over the way your character behaves in a few choice scenarios; it's controlling who your character is and what they're made of. Its more about the role and less about the play.
Lucianu
Its starting to be really frustrating to try and define the main elements of a RPG, for a average gamer, because fact is developers have diluted the genre over the years to a point were there are over 13 damn defined sub-genres of RPGs.
There are also some gameplay elements that IMO are incorrectly labeled as RPG elements, mainly having an inventory to hold items to use later. I think that should really be an adventure genre element but most people label it under an RPG one. I've been thinking if we should do an official redo of game genre labeling for a while now. :P[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"] Wrong again. In Demon's Souls your stats and character build are vital to the combat and how you fair. The game is so highly praised for the gameplay. I agree. But the stats are an integral part of that gameplay. If you were just given a single character with limited customization options there would be little fun in getting your ass owned until you level up to the point of being a badass and punishing everything you go up against. Demon's Souls is an amazing example of why leveling and character building is so much fun. MrSelf-DestructYou live and die by skill, souls and gear. It's the exploration and combat that keeps you coming back. No one bought DS because it has stats, it because of the combat and challenge. When I recommend the game to friends, It talk about the combat, the world, and the difficulty....Not the stats. *facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that. DS is an action rpg and skill based action games are not boring. And DS is still mostly skill based. Do you have a dodge stat in the game or do you just roll out of the way?
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]*facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that. InconsistancyGonna have to disagree here, stats are in-place of physical ability in the real world, but in a game, there's very little need for what can be manually controlled, like whoever's above you said, passive stats like dodge/parry, being passive is unnecessary since it's a game. I find that it makes the combat dull if you make passive defense stats and hit stats. The stats determine how powerful your character is. If you fight enemies that own you due to your weakness what is more fun then leveling up and becoming strong enough to overpower and own them back? There are other stats besides just health and defense, too. You may fight a dragon that will destroy you with his flames despite how powerful you are. What are you gonna do? You find the equipment combination of armor and accessories that makes you most invulnerable to the flames. Tweaking your stats is a game in itself. If all you had to do in Demon's Souls was run through and kill the bad guys it would not have been nearly as entertaining as it was. Not to me anyway.
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"][QUOTE="dreman999"] The video states that the abilitie choices and gear choices are really mask calculations and you just making the same choice as everyone else for best build......And you say it proves you point that stats are key to all rpgs?.........That is not logical. And they used it as an example. It does not make it the most important part of rpgs. Especially when the most popular rpgs are not heavy stat based. I'm not saying it not important, I'm just saying it not the most important. Anyone with would make a stat, level,gear based rpg will find it that everyone would hate it. We just don't play rpgs for that.People use the best gear they can find. If everyone already gets the best gear then it makes sense that they are all using the same stuff. However, the gear is just a part of the stats. What defines a blood mage or a high elf or what have you? Is their goal still not to level up and become badass enough to compete in PVP and beat all the quests and raids? Without all that stuff everyone would be on a level playing field and you could just run straight through the game. WoW would not be as popular as it is today if that were the case, I promise you. These people want to grind. If they didn't they would probably find better ways to spend their money. I play RPGs for leveling and character building. For epic stories I play... well... pretty much anything else. :P WOW is losing popularity because of this exact case. Many, many people are moving to Rift because of this. Just because you have a different perfect build for different aspect of the game, does not mean that people are not find they are just building the samething. If you want to see diversity in build making....Real diversity, look up rift. I can make a telaporting sniper in the game. So how does this disprove that stats are important? If people are leaving WoW because the stats and gear aren't as diversified and effective as they like then that only proves that stats are very important to people who play these kind of games. :|dreman999
*facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that. DS is an action rpg and skill based action games are not boring. And DS is still mostly skill based. Do you have a dodge stat in the game or do you just roll out of the way? Why is rolling and dodging the example you guys use? I like action RPGs. I prefer them actually. You don't have to have a stat for every little thing. If you can map dodge to a button then that's awesome. But can you map how the weight of your armor effects how well you can dodge to a button? No. You need stats to determine that.[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"][QUOTE="dreman999"] You live and die by skill, souls and gear. It's the exploration and combat that keeps you coming back. No one bought DS because it has stats, it because of the combat and challenge. When I recommend the game to friends, It talk about the combat, the world, and the difficulty....Not the stats.dreman999
The stats determine how powerful your character is. If you fight enemies that own you due to your weakness what is more fun then leveling up and becoming strong enough to overpower and own them back? There are other stats besides just health and defense, too. You may fight a dragon that will destroy you with his flames despite how powerful you are. What are you gonna do? You find the equipment combination of armor and accessories that makes you most invulnerable to the flames. Tweaking your stats is a game in itself. If all you had to do in Demon's Souls was run through and kill the bad guys it would not have been nearly as entertaining as it was. Not to me anyway. MrSelf-DestructWell, if my stats are so low, that I'd usually only do nominal damage, then I should be able to have such solid mechanics, that I can win on skill alone. It's a game, I don't need it to play for me via stats. Leveling up, stacking stats and obtaining gear all = grinding to me, I hate those so much, I quit wow 'cause of the grind, it's just too damn tedious.
Also, edited, apparently while you were commenting "I'm fine with damage related stats, and maybe a passive resistance to something that's unavoidable/extremely hard to avoid(assuming the reason it's hard to avoid isn't the fact that the game's combat is cheap, rather than actually difficult)."
Combat really just suffers too much by stats imo, either it's shallow, or it's imbalanced. And since it's a 'game' I care about the 'gameplay' more than anything.
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]The stats determine how powerful your character is. If you fight enemies that own you due to your weakness what is more fun then leveling up and becoming strong enough to overpower and own them back? There are other stats besides just health and defense, too. You may fight a dragon that will destroy you with his flames despite how powerful you are. What are you gonna do? You find the equipment combination of armor and accessories that makes you most invulnerable to the flames. Tweaking your stats is a game in itself. If all you had to do in Demon's Souls was run through and kill the bad guys it would not have been nearly as entertaining as it was. Not to me anyway. InconsistancyWell, if my stats are so low, that I'd usually only do nominal damage, then I should be able to have such solid mechanics, that I can win on skill alone. It's a game, I don't need it to play for me via stats. Leveling up, stacking stats and obtaining gear all = grinding to me, I hate those so much, I quit wow 'cause of the grind, it's just too damn tedious.
Also, edited, apparently while you were commenting "I'm fine with damage related stats, and maybe a passive resistance to something that's unavoidable/extremely hard to avoid(assuming the reason it's hard to avoid isn't the fact that the game's combat is cheap, rather than actually difficult)."
I totally understand that some people aren't into leveling up, collecting gear, and grinding. That, to me, just says that they aren't really into RPGs all that much. Which is fine. But someone who is really interested in RPGs and enjoys those different elements know how important they are to the genre. You apparently would have liked Demon's Souls just fine without the stats. I wouldn't have liked it nearly as much. That just comes down to what defines us as gamers, not what defines the RPG as a genre.Edit: Replying to your edit. I agree that there are games where combat suffers to imbalanced stats, but I don't think DS was one of them. And I like good gameplay just as much as you do, but I also consider the tweaking stats a major part of the gameplay. In RPGs there's more to gameplay than just swinging swords.
[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"][QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]*facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that. MrSelf-DestructGonna have to disagree here, stats are in-place of physical ability in the real world, but in a game, there's very little need for what can be manually controlled, like whoever's above you said, passive stats like dodge/parry, being passive is unnecessary since it's a game. I find that it makes the combat dull if you make passive defense stats and hit stats. The stats determine how powerful your character is. If you fight enemies that own you due to your weakness what is more fun then leveling up and becoming strong enough to overpower and own them back? There are other stats besides just health and defense, too. You may fight a dragon that will destroy you with his flames despite how powerful you are. What are you gonna do? You find the equipment combination of armor and accessories that makes you most invulnerable to the flames. Tweaking your stats is a game in itself. If all you had to do in Demon's Souls was run through and kill the bad guys it would not have been nearly as entertaining as it was. Not to me anyway. No one is denying that stats are need. (though leveling up is boring.) We are just saying it's not as import as you are stating. Becausefinding a diffent way of beating something at a low level is better than grinding to a level in which you can.
[QUOTE="dreman999"]DS is an action rpg and skill based action games are not boring. And DS is still mostly skill based. Do you have a dodge stat in the game or do you just roll out of the way? Why is rolling and dodging the example you guys use? I like action RPGs. I prefer them actually. You don't have to have a stat for every little thing. If you can map dodge to a button then that's awesome. But can you map how the weight of your armor effects how well you can dodge to a button? No. You need stats to determine that. Because those of are the stats you have to build in tradition stat, gear, level only rpgs. The passive elements are passive for a reason. Sure you need them but they are not mandatory to have for a great rpg.[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"] *facepalm* Yet the game would still not be an RPG without the stats. It would just be an action game..... a rather dull one at that. MrSelf-Destruct
WOW is losing popularity because of this exact case. Many, many people are moving to Rift because of this. Just because you have a different perfect build for different aspect of the game, does not mean that people are not find they are just building the samething. If you want to see diversity in build making....Real diversity, look up rift. I can make a telaporting sniper in the game. So how does this disprove that stats are important? If people are leaving WoW because the stats and gear aren't as diversified and effective as they like then that only proves that stats are very important to people who play these kind of games. :| Because people level up to be able to progress in WOW , not because they like to. Many quest are only available at cretin levels. You have to grind your way to continue. Stat are just their for them to win, if they could have another way to win...they would do it.[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"] People use the best gear they can find. If everyone already gets the best gear then it makes sense that they are all using the same stuff. However, the gear is just a part of the stats. What defines a blood mage or a high elf or what have you? Is their goal still not to level up and become badass enough to compete in PVP and beat all the quests and raids? Without all that stuff everyone would be on a level playing field and you could just run straight through the game. WoW would not be as popular as it is today if that were the case, I promise you. These people want to grind. If they didn't they would probably find better ways to spend their money. I play RPGs for leveling and character building. For epic stories I play... well... pretty much anything else. :P MrSelf-Destruct
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"][QUOTE="dreman999"] DS is an action rpg and skill based action games are not boring. And DS is still mostly skill based. Do you have a dodge stat in the game or do you just roll out of the way?Why is rolling and dodging the example you guys use? I like action RPGs. I prefer them actually. You don't have to have a stat for every little thing. If you can map dodge to a button then that's awesome. But can you map how the weight of your armor effects how well you can dodge to a button? No. You need stats to determine that. Because those of are the stats you have to build in tradition stat, gear, level only rpgs. The passive elements are passive for a reason. Sure you need them but they are not mandatory to have for a great rpg. Correction: They aren't mandatory for a great action game. They ARE mandatory for a great RPG.dreman999
Pencils, character sheets, and a good GM.
[QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"]So how does this disprove that stats are important? If people are leaving WoW because the stats and gear aren't as diversified and effective as they like then that only proves that stats are very important to people who play these kind of games. :| Because people level up to be able to progress in WOW , not because they like to. Many quest are only available at cretin levels. You have to grind your way to continue. Stat are just their for them to win, if they could have another way to win...they would do it. Then WHY ARE THEY PLAYING IT!? You think millions of people pay $15 a month to do something they don't like to do? Once the main story is done people STILL play the game; grinding away to bump their stats or start over from scratch with a fresh build. You obviously aren't into that sort of thing, so I don't expect you to understand it, but people don't just play WoW for the story.[QUOTE="dreman999"] WOW is losing popularity because of this exact case. Many, many people are moving to Rift because of this. Just because you have a different perfect build for different aspect of the game, does not mean that people are not find they are just building the samething. If you want to see diversity in build making....Real diversity, look up rift. I can make a telaporting sniper in the game.dreman999
[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="MrSelf-Destruct"] So how does this disprove that stats are important? If people are leaving WoW because the stats and gear aren't as diversified and effective as they like then that only proves that stats are very important to people who play these kind of games. :|Because people level up to be able to progress in WOW , not because they like to. Many quest are only available at cretin levels. You have to grind your way to continue. Stat are just their for them to win, if they could have another way to win...they would do it. Then WHY ARE THEY PLAYING IT!? You think millions of people pay $15 a month to do something they don't like to do? Once the main story is done people STILL play the game; grinding away to bump their stats or start over from scratch with a fresh build. You obviously aren't into that sort of thing, so I don't expect you to understand it, but people don't just play WoW for the story. People are playing WOW because they like playing with other people. It not just you in a room grinding...... Sure, you have to grind to get to the next level but your grinding with friends.MrSelf-Destruct
Levelling stats, gear collecting and character progression.
The lack of which causes outrages such as Oblivion, Mass Effect 2 and Fallout 3.
Mograine
To be fair, Fallout 3 did have *some* character progression - you weren't much of a match against deathclaws at the start of the gane. And it didn't lack in levelling nor loot.
You are missing his point. The gear may be different but the priorities are the same.
The difference between players in WoW is minimal. Everyone is basicly using same stat priorities, talent specs, gems, enchants and rotations.
This is true for every RPG but in WoW it's extreme compared to most others.rastotm
Difference between players is minimal? Say WHAT?
In what RPG have you ever seen spellcasters go for physical damage boosting items? Why are you saying that as if having the same stat priorities is somehow strange?
Rotations cannot be changed...that goes against maths. Just like a level 20 sorcerer in D&D wouldn't open a fight against a dragon with Light or Acid Splash.
As for talent specs and gems...no, just no. You'll have a hard time finding two characters that are really the same, even players that raid in guilds such as Nihilum do not strictly stick to the same talent specs.
[QUOTE="rastotm"]
You are missing his point. The gear may be different but the priorities are the same.
The difference between players in WoW is minimal. Everyone is basicly using same stat priorities, talent specs, gems, enchants and rotations.
This is true for every RPG but in WoW it's extreme compared to most others.Mograine
Difference between players is minimal? Say WHAT?
In what RPG have you ever seen spellcasters go for physical damage boosting items? Why are you saying that as if having the same stat priorities is somehow strange?
Rotations cannot be changed...that goes against maths. Just like a level 20 sorcerer in D&D wouldn't open a fight against a dragon with Light or Acid Splash.
As for talent specs and gems...no, just no. You'll have a hard time finding two characters that are really the same, even players that raid in guilds such as Nihilum do not strictly stick to the same talent specs.
They(in top guilds) balance their specs with the raid usually... min maxing everything... there's pretty much always a core cookie cutter spec, with only a little variation in non vital areas..[QUOTE="Mograine"]
Levelling stats, gear collecting and character progression.
The lack of which causes outrages such as Oblivion, Mass Effect 2 and Fallout 3.
Planeforger
To be fair, Fallout 3 did have *some* character progression - you weren't much of a match against deathclaws at the start of the gane. And it didn't lack in levelling nor loot.
I know, I also know you realize that if you look at it from a strictly RPG viewpoint it really didn't have that much focus on those aspects tho.
[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]
[QUOTE="Mograine"]
Levelling stats, gear collecting and character progression.
The lack of which causes outrages such as Oblivion, Mass Effect 2 and Fallout 3.
Mograine
What... ?
What "What...?"?
Oblivion strongest aspect of it is Gear. You can make armor that hurt enemies when they attack you. And Fallout 3 has a strong character progression aspect because of the perks. As well as ME. The problem is that with oblivion and FO3, you end up so godly at you can't be killed.
Oblivion strongest aspect of it is Gear. You can make armor that hurt enemies when they attack you. And Fallout 3 has a strong character progression aspect because of the perks. As well as ME. The problem is that with oblivion and FO3, you end up so godly at you can't be killed.dreman999
Oblivion has level scaling, gear is really irrelevant. Its main aspect is exploration. You can just pick non-combat related skills as major, lock yourself up in the IC and level those up, go out and find opponents in daedric armor. Kill one, grats you're top tier geared.
Fallout 3 doesn't really put much emphasis on character progression, although the level scaling isn't as devastating as it is in Oblivion. Its main focus was...well, shoot things.
Don't know what has ME to do with this...as much as I loved both ME and ME2 the character progression was virtually unexistant, especially once you had at least one point in each skill.
I need to step in here and say something. The whole point of doing rolls for checks is determining if what you do is SUCCESSFUL. You check for everything. Your ability to climb a wall, your ability to throw a rope, your ability to roll out of the way of an incoming attack. The statistics in D&D are there to add a sense of realism to the world that wouldn't exist in an action game where you push a button and an action takes place (where the player's reaction time means more than the character's actual ABILITY to do it).Role-playing is about building a character that has the ability to do some things better than others. A fighter in D&D is going to be more able to take damage, deal it, and do strength/endurance/constitution related skills. A thief in D&D is going to be more able to avoid damage (greater agility), sneak around (avoid sight) and do dexterity/charisma/intelligence related skills. They have different ROLES to play in the party, they can't just be successful at everything. If a mage starts trying to be acrobatic, his low dexterity and strength attributes are going to cripple his check rolls, making him fail a lot more than a thief, acrobat or finesse-fighter (like a ranger or pirate rather than a knight or paladin). Just as if someone not skilled in the use of spells starts trying to cast higher level spells, they are going to fail 99 times out of a 100, than if they were skilled with those level of spells.
Dungeons & Dragons exemplifies what "role-playing" actually means. It is about building a character with specific advantages and disadvantages, and having the freedom to play them in whatever manner the person who made them deems fit. They interact with a world that the DM creates and controls through the use of the randomization of dice rolls, making certain actions UNSUCCESSFUL. A video game where all you do is push a button and you complete the desired action, isn't a role-playing game. Period.foxhound_fox
Here we go. Thank you very much.
[QUOTE="dreman999"] But you don't need that to that the extreme of D&D. In a video game, do you need to roll to see the chances of Dodging an attack, or chances of hitting someone......No. You just roll out of the way and if they are in the path of your sword, they get hit. The stats just see how much damage you can take, how much you damage you can give, what type of damage you can give and how long you can attack with that type of damage....... Why have a dodge roll when you can do it your self. I'm not say stats are not important in rpgs, even ME2 has some stats with powers, attack, and defense. It just that it's not as important as it use to be. With D&D everything is stats.foxhound_foxI need to step in here and say something. The whole point of doing rolls for checks is determining if what you do is SUCCESSFUL. You check for everything. Your ability to climb a wall, your ability to throw a rope, your ability to roll out of the way of an incoming attack. The statistics in D&D are there to add a sense of realism to the world that wouldn't exist in an action game where you push a button and an action takes place (where the player's reaction time means more than the character's actual ABILITY to do it). Role-playing is about building a character that has the ability to do some things better than others. A fighter in D&D is going to be more able to take damage, deal it, and do strength/endurance/constitution related skills. A thief in D&D is going to be more able to avoid damage (greater agility), sneak around (avoid sight) and do dexterity/charisma/intelligence related skills. They have different ROLES to play in the party, they can't just be successful at everything. If a mage starts trying to be acrobatic, his low dexterity and strength attributes are going to cripple his check rolls, making him fail a lot more than a thief, acrobat or finesse-fighter (like a ranger or pirate rather than a knight or paladin). Just as if someone not skilled in the use of spells starts trying to cast higher level spells, they are going to fail 99 times out of a 100, than if they were skilled with those level of spells. Dungeons & Dragons exemplifies what "role-playing" actually means. It is about building a character with specific advantages and disadvantages, and having the freedom to play them in whatever manner the person who made them deems fit. They interact with a world that the DM creates and controls through the use of the randomization of dice rolls, making certain actions UNSUCCESSFUL. A video game where all you do is push a button and you complete the desired action, isn't a role-playing game. Period. You don't understand....I'm not saying that the system is flawed. It works for pen and paper because all you have in pen and paper. You in a limited environment and you need a differnet why to play the game then doing rolls in your house. All I'm saying is that video games don't have these limits. Why do a roll check in a video game when yo can allow the player control of the roll. Now other passive stats like attack , defense, and one part of stelth are one thing but action based movement should not be stats in a video game.
Roleplaying is about playing a role and you don't need stats in everything to do that. You be female, a new specis , or in a whole new religion....It's all about changing your perspective. With roleplaying you can think in ways you could never think before, act in a way you never acted before. I'm not angry person, but with rpgs I can play one. I'm not female but with rpgs, I can. I'm not saying d&d is horrible, just that the way it's played should be stuck with pen and paper and video games can add variety to the system so it is not stuck with the same rules and aspects.
[QUOTE="dreman999"]Oblivion strongest aspect of it is Gear. You can make armor that hurt enemies when they attack you. And Fallout 3 has a strong character progression aspect because of the perks. As well as ME. The problem is that with oblivion and FO3, you end up so godly at you can't be killed.Mograine
Oblivion has level scaling, gear is really irrelevant. Its main aspect is exploration. You can just pick non-combat related skills as major, lock yourself up in the IC and level those up, go out and find opponents in daedric armor. Kill one, grats you're top tier geared.
Fallout 3 doesn't really put much emphasis on character progression, although the level scaling isn't as devastating as it is in Oblivion. Its main focus was...well, shoot things.
Don't know what has ME to do with this...as much as I loved both ME and ME2 the character progression was virtually unexistant, especially once you had at least one point in each skill.
Gear not irreverent if I can get 100% damage reflect on my armor. Character progression is the skill you get and my god you have a mountain of skills to choose from on FO3. The skill you get can break the game. ME2 character progression is based on the powers you have. The bonus power greatly change they way you play the game. Are you an adept and having trouble with Ymir mechs. Just get stasis and you can hold them in place and one the power fade you get an attack bonus for extra damage. Can use your powers as much as a biotic, get energydrain and take off the shield and add the power to you own. Can get the final kill after the charge with your vanguard because your target kills you with one shot afterwards, level up cryo ammo and freeze they guy before he gets a shot off.
Oblivion has level scaling, gear is really irrelevant. MograineThis statement confuses me...
Wouldn't this make gear the most important thing about the game? If everything scales to your level then the most important thing in the game will be collecting gear and enchanting it with insane bonuses your foes will not have so you can actually be stronger than them. Does Oblivion has gear scaling as well?
Gear not irreverent if I can get 100% damage reflect on my armor.Character progression is the skill you get and my god you have a mountain of skills to choose from on FO3. The skill you get can break the game.
ME2 character progression is based on the powers you have. The bonus power greatly change they way you play the game. Are you an adept and having trouble with Ymir mechs. Just get stasis and you can hold them in place and one the power fade you get an attack bonus for extra damage. Can use your powers as much as a biotic, get energydrain and take off the shield and add the power to you own. Can get the final kill after the charge with your vanguard because your target kills you with one shot afterwards, level up cryo ammo and freeze they guy before he gets a shot off.dreman999
It has nothing to do with the emphasis on gear Oblivion has...absolutely nothing.
Fallout 3 boils down to very few different skills depending on your playstyle, with a lot of bloated trivial perks that work as a mere background.
And in ME2, as I said there's virtually no difference between a top level character and a character that has got at least one point in every skill. What you just said proves that.
I also have no idea why would anyone pick up Cryo Ammo with a Vanguard, I only played Vanguard in ME2 and never spent a single point on Cryo.
This statement confuses me...Wouldn't this make gear the most important thing about the game? If everything scales to your level then the most important thing in the game will be collecting gear and enchanting it with insane bonuses your foes will not have so you can actually be stronger than them. Does Oblivion has gear scaling as well?
Nerkcon
Yeah, it does. As you level up all items that random spawned NPCs have get upgraded.
Ok..
When Im playing a rpg, I expect to be playing as the character, so there defiinitely needs to be a sense of progression and feeling that I'm getting better as the game progresses, that's what makes me realize the character best, as the character grows in power in accordance to the rise in my expertise with the game.
Second is the story, without which I cannot have a good connection with the character and won't feel the motivation of going through the grind to make him better/ get to the end.
Choices/Consequences, well in this case I prefer subtle choices to an in your face dialogue tree kind of approach. The second kind of approach seems to divide the experience in distinct compartments only some of which can be enjoyed in a playthrough. This always leaves me feeling 'what if I had spoken to that guy kindly' rather than being engrossed in the current events. I prefer a kind of choice system where the choices are present in such a way that I don't consciously feel that I'm making a choice. That way the experience is more personal and your choices are closer to what you feel as a person rather than being based on what you think will get you the best ending or the super duper-est items.
Consequences, again I rather like the butterfly effect kind of approach to consequences, but there should be some sense to it. Whether I ate an old man's lunch or not should not have anything to do with events later on. yeah, Chrono Trigger, I'm calling you out.
Last I feel is the NPCs/Gameworld which is important for the player to get some kind of immersive role playing experience. The gameworld should be an interesting place with various activities going on regardless of the absence/presence of the player. It shouldn't feel as if the gameworld is centered around being a quest hub for you and everything that people do should not have to do just with you. Basically what I'm saying is that the player should not feel as if he is the most important caharacter in the gameworld. NPC's should have good dialogues which make sense, and cut voice acting if you can't make it good.
Reduce the graphics qualty if you must, but don't recycle NPC models like no tomorrow. This statement is especially valid for 3d games, where model repetition is much more conspicuous and irritating.
You don't understand....I'm not saying that the system is flawed. It works for pen and paper because all you have in pen and paper. You in a limited environment and you need a differnet why to play the game then doing rolls in your house. All I'm saying is that video games don't have these limits. Why do a roll check in a video game when yo can allow the player control of the roll. Now other passive stats like attack , defense, and one part of stelth are one thing but action based movement should not be stats in a video game.Roleplaying is about playing a role and you don't need stats in everything to do that. You be female, a new specis , or in a whole new religion....It's all about changing your perspective. With roleplaying you can think in ways you could never think before, act in a way you never acted before. I'm not angry person, but with rpgs I can play one. I'm not female but with rpgs, I can. I'm not saying d&d is horrible, just that the way it's played should be stuck with pen and paper and video games can add variety to the system so it is not stuck with the same rules and aspects.
dreman999
Oh, I understand fully. I also understand that it should be EVEN EASIER to adapt the PnP system (the stats, not the customization of the world) to a computer system. Instead of rolling 25 different dice and taking a couple minutes to count it all up, a computer does it in a few milleseconds and can relate that calculation to the action taking place on-screen. Why do a check when the player does a roll? Well, to determine whether or not rolling out of the way WILL ACTUALLY WORK, or the player will fall flat on his face, and get hit by the incoming fireball.
Role-playing is about building a "person" not a "personality." There are plenty of games that don't even come close to being "RPG's" that allow the player to select race, hair, sex, background, religion, etc. That isn't what makes a RPG a RPG. It is being able to make a person that can do the things YOU want them to do when interacting with a living and changing world. It is about fulfilling a fantasy in a virtual, constructed reality that affords the same possibilities and CONSEQUENCES of reality.
Being an ass isn't role-playing. Being an ass to a halfling barmaid by refusing to tip her whilst giving excellent service, who brings her orc buddies back to your inn-room to beat the snot out of you and steal all your equipment is. I can guarantee you've never even read a D&D rulebook, let alone sat down with some buddies and tried playing. It is why I'm so adamant to kill this whole "RPG's are about playing a role" nonsense I see everywhere. It is geuninely FUN to make a character your own, and interact with a world in a way that the DM can't predict, and then change it up seamlessly so that you never thought it was supposed to turn out another way.
If you want more examples of actual role-playing, I can surely slap some together. Even from my own experiences playing D&D. Which includes such things as a friend of mine rolling triple critical hits on an attack with a greatsword to a monster that was grappled with me... and literally turning me into a cloud of red mist with the amount of damage done to my HP due to him missing the monster and hitting me instead... despite his assuring me "oh, I'll roll good, I guarantee it!"
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