My issues with Rise of the Tomb Raider

@AzatiS: So the word masterpiece here has interesting connotations. Resident Evil 4 for all intents and purposes is a masterpiece to many people such as Champ and Mark Brown. They feel this way because of how it is designed and how its gameplay plays out. Let's remember we are talking about video games and the sub-category of survival horror action games.

Separately, we can look at Uncharted 4. I don't want to make any remarks about Uncharted 4 personally because I haven't played it to any capacity. What I understand from the discussion is that Champ feels RE4 is a masterpiece because it succeeds at what makes a meaningful gameplay experience in a survival horror action title to great effect. Unlike Uncharted 4, he feels this did not succeed at being an exciting action-adventure game for him.

Flaws appear in almost every game (I mean Tetris is pretty much flawless) but like I said before flawlessness is not a synonym of a masterpiece. A masterpiece to me is something of an outstanding work of art and in the realm of video games, this is going to drill down to what the game sets out to achieve.

How comes when you cant hide behind games design excuse for flaws like story/voice acting / glitches etc saying it doesnt matter or i dont care or who cares every game has glitches etc , then for everything else = you dont understand design , you lack comprehensive and analytical skills etc ..

I cant take you seriously sorry.

And no fundamental flaws are not appearing in every game. period. Because you trying to make it sound like RE4 had a flaw or two and thats it.

You cant hide all that behind design , period. Because if you do , the same can be said for UC4. You see how easily can work both ways ?

Just learn from RE7 what is good design with shooting elements that work , enemies that can be scary , how anxiety works even if you move while shooting , how ammo finding should be working , how horror should be working , how atmosphere should be , how backtracking should , how story is better than ever willing to see wtf is going on etc and move on with this design nonsense. You cant excuse RE4s flaws because of its design.

You dont want to take RE7 as an example , take something else then and compare it with , the shooting elements or story or voice acting or AI or gltiches or whatever and come tell me again RE4 is a masterpiece.

Having a fundamental flaw in core shooting mechanic of a shooter while hiding that behind games overall good design wont work. Specially from guys that supposed are all about game design i was waiting to hear something else !! Not excuses!

Go to your college and make a project. And say " guys , i have an idea. Ill make a third person shooter that you wont be able to do shit if you aiming and no strafe allowed , and ill have a great design around that " . Do that and let me know what your teachers and everyone had to say. Lets do this experiment

Also for the record

Masterpiece : a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship.

@AzatiS:

I dunno, man. I feel that despite what anyone thinks about Uncharted 4 being a great or bad game in itself. One of the biggest takeaways you can't deny is that it is extremely structurally sound in execution. It is undeniably well made and put together.

In the case of Resident Evil 4, I never really felt anything wrong with it either. Even going back, it aged really well for a game of its gen.

@AzatiS: Well firstly, voice acting and story aren't game design issues. Those attributes do not pertain to game design.

Secondly, like Champ mentioned, it's about weight.

The story and voice acting of Mario are inconsequential at best, right? So we examine Resident Evil 4. There is more story than the former game but it is still a significantly smaller portion of the experience or play-time in RE4 to something like, say Uncharted 2. Thus, it's about intentions. Does Resident Evil intend to have a great story? Not really. It never really did and the game doesn't spend all that much time indulging in its narrative other than to contextualize the gameplay. Does Uncharted?... Does it succeed when compared to the stories it is aiming to reach for? Keep in mind that a Youtube search of RE4 cutscene length vs. Uncharted 4 shows the length of RE4 cut-scenes is about 1hr and 30 minuts vs. Uncharted 4's 4 hour cut-scenes (not including the walk and talk and driving downtime)

I still hold that the control scheme of RE4 is absolutely not a design flaw. This is simply your opinion and I disagree with it. I would agree with you if RE4 was designed around moving and shooting but failed to have this mechanic but that's not the case. Enemies, level design and challenges are design with this limitation in mind which is why I thought it was a good choice to make every encounter feel tense in past RE games too.

But it can't work both ways because there is a jarring inconsistency between the intent and the flaws that Champ is presenting here. Let's examine this again and conclude how this is not double standards.

Resident Evil 4 has three puzzles that make up a small portion of play time during its 15 hour run time. They aren't very good but this is inconsequential when you consider how little you are spending your time doing this. It shines at what it sets out to do in survival horror action which takes up a bulk of the experience so no harm done, for me. Same way springs in Super Mario Bros. stink but very, very few levels ever actually use them.

On the other hand, from what I understand, Uncharted 4's play time is dominated by platforming and puzzles. Like RE4, the puzzle elements aren't good nor is the platforming (I can at least use U2 as a reference that the platforming is quite dull...). So the problem here is that this is the dominant portion of the game.

It would be double standards if the bulk of RE4 was playing these puzzles like Uncharted 4 and holding no complaints about it but that's not what is happening here. The weighing is important because if the designer is asking the player to spend a whole lot of time during the 15 hour game climbing surfaces then that gameplay probably needs to be very compelling.

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Breath of the Wild is a new game that I think is really great. It has a pretty rubbish narrative and really bad voice acting but fortunately these elements are extremely scarce in the actual play time. I'm also spending the majority of my time inside the excellent exploration game-loop. It's not as bad than if, say a game like The Wolf Among Us had a bad narrative or voice acting because that is the game. Do you see how weight is important to the capital or impact of a potential flaw in a game?

This isnt if UC4 is a masterpiece or not , i never denied some of its mediocre elements even if as a whole i think game delivers for what it is big time when Re4 felt like a bad shooter with little horror in there.

All im trying to say here is if people that calling RE4 a masterpiece with it having noticeable wrong , totally wrong if you ask me gaming attributes in its core from myriad glitches to stupid AI to tragic story/voice acting , backtracking , gameplay issues and we gonna excuse everything then how comes we taking UC4s flaws like its the end of the world and be so harsh ? It doesnt make sense at all to me.

Something doesnt fit here imho.

Also , nothing wrong if you never felt anything wrong with RE4 , i felt alot of wrongs DAY 1 as many other gamers around if you search google , since mid 2000s.

Dont take my posts as RE4 vs UC4 , who is better , my argument is peoples double standards more than anything.

@AzatiS: Let's say a person is served two plates of food.

Plate A. has a banana and a single grape.

Plate B. has a full bunch of grapes and a single banana wedge.

The person doesn't like banana and so they prefer Plate B. This makes sense, right? He can forget about the banana wedge and focus on those lovely bunches of grapes. He still may not like banana but hey, no harm done. It's a tiny amount. But by your application of the phrase double standards here, the person should complain in equal measures about both plates. That's why there isn't double standards in Champ's opinions. :P

Having a small inconsequential measure of something you don't like isn't the same as having a dominant measure of something you don't like. The opinions on the object remain the same but the feelings in the grand scheme of things will differ depending on their quantity in the experience.

Omg again the same shit over and over.

First of all , you jumped in this and you have not a single CLUE wtf i talked about with Champ in the past. So please when you try to defend someone so hard and jump into others arguments , KNOW your shit please before you do so or dont jump in there at all.

Now as i said before , stop comparing apples with dinosaurs and keep it to RE4 or similar game to it that are TPS or Shooters in general. You sound stupid this very moment.

RE4s gameplay decision of not be able to strafe or move while shooting is the weakest shit i ever saw in any shooter game EVER. period. This is my opinion ofc , as everything you saying to excuse this crap of mechanic is your opinion. What do you think exchanging all this time ? Opinions , that is . LOL !

Now , before you do this RE4 vs UC4 , i never denied UC4s weak points when you fanboys , denying everything. Even for obvious things that you cant excuse behind " the design" motto , like story/glitches/voice acting / backtracking etc you dont agree ... you just saying it doesnt matter or who cares or i didnt play RE4 for its story and all those craps...

That EGO bro...

So , as i said to end this crap you started for no reason or for a reason , keep your opinion please and if you want to prove me wrong , do what i asked you in your college and let me know what your game designer teachers told you about.

@AzatiS:

You never did explain what you didn't like about the backtracking by the way...

I still think the control scheme was a good idea to de-emphasize that combat. Sure, it's a TPS but it's also a survival horror and one attribute of survival horror not just in theme but in actual mechanics too. That's just my take. I maintain it isn't a flaw. :P

Also relax man. Take a few breaths. There's no need for the heat. I used the analogy to help you understand a phrase you clearly can't use correctly. :P

@jumpaction: I haven't played RE4, or anything after the PSX games actually, but I'm curious about something.

How do you and champ actually KNOW the story was intended to be bad from the beginning?

RE1 and RE2 struck me as trying to have an epic story like a movie, but ending up being a really cringe worthy B movie.

Just not sure how one can definitively speak to the developers intentions.

@appariti0n: It's not that the developers intended to make a bad story. It's that I feel they aimed to make something a bit cheesy and trashy which, you know typically is just fun and light-hearted and that's what I think they achieved (whether intentional or not). I mean you have characters doing slo mo jump shots in cut scenes, wrestling moves on bad guys and villains that flail out their arms while opera music plays and leaches rush out of them like they're some sort of anime character. It's clearly not reaching for the same tone or consistency as something like The Shining or The Exorcist. It's cheesy, very flamboyant and more reminiscent of horror B Movies. Whether or not this is truly what they intended for is different from what is actually there, which is still fun and cheesy if not clearly missing the mark of being epic, which I doubt they were aiming to do when they had Leon suplex a guy.

>Paragraphs that are actually structured and properly spaced
>Wall of text

lol

@kvally said:

@Vatusus

FWIW, here is my stats for the game. Sure, I didn't dump 100 hours in UC4 (because I thought it was boring), but 20 hours isn't "rushing".

Uncharted 4 certainly isn't even in my top 50 games of this generation but neither is rottr, it's really a battle of two special needs kids if you ask me.

Uncharted games are pretty easy platinums apparently due to reasonable trophies and cheats being usable.

Reading isn't popular anymore. :(

I enjoyed RoTR much more than with "Uncharted 4," but I think that's mostly due to my preferring the metroidvania structure than straight linearity.

I dont care what you comparing here. The thing is you think A game has 1-2-3-4-5 flaws and plays shit and this and that and you think B game is a masterpiece while clearly you defending its flaws either by "it doesnt matter / who cares " excuse or " its part of the design " or even worse " glitches are minor even if are many ".

All the links and videos i provided seems it doesnt convince you so , whatever , i dont care.

We dont have anything else to discuss , i beg to differ big time. I just proved to you , the gurus of gaming design , that opinions are just opinions and double standards are real. Nothing more , nothing less.

The fact that you feeling to defend for a whole day , a guy or a game proves my point further. Keep bashing games but care what you calling masterpiece , specially if this "masterpiece" of yours has too many flaws to mention.

Now , you cant prove an elephant is an airplane. What im talking about are FACTS . Story/voice acting / glitches / backtracking / QTes / bad gameplay mechanic etc. Keep defending all those things , i dont mind , everyone can have his opinion. So let me have mine for RE4 , as you have yours for UC4 or any other game you feel like is shit. Simple as that.

The bottom line is , the more you calling RE4 a masterpiece or you defending it , the more you proving my original point of your double standards. Bypassing all flaws of the game you like , pointing out all the flaws for a game you dont like that much. Fanboystic behavor at its finnest if you ask me and thats what im trying to say here since post 1.

Keep doing it , i dont mind. My opinion wont change at all. And let me know when you suggest to design a 3D game based on shooting mechanics that you wont be able to move or strafe and the outcome of it. Im really curious about it.

@AzatiS: Okay Az. I'm not sure these two posts even relate... But okay.

Everything is related to my original point. I dont want you to defend RE4 or Champ nor i care what you have to say about both. My point is entirely different than that and has to do with Champ himself.

If you like him that much speak to him , not to me , and be friends. You dont have to become so obsessed with me to defend him nor to lecture me about design in games when all im doing is pointing out undeniable flaws of a game that many gamers pointed out too thru the years. Google if you dont beleive and you think im just generalize things.

Every single one of those gamers are stupid and lack comprehesive and analytical skills and pointing out / making videos / talking negatively about some RE4s aspects out of hate alone ? I dont think so , there is some truth in there , you like it or not.

Same for UC4. But to call RE4 a masterpiece and UC4 bad over and over .. Nah , tell that to someone else.

@AzatiS: I am pretty sure I explicitly said that I won't pass comment aboit Uncharted 4 because I haven't played it and I believe I didn't make any judgements. :P

There are some comments here where you are assuming I said everything Champ has said which isn't true but yes, Champ is my honey bunny sugar lump.

You do but you keep defending RE4 flaws , either by "doesnt matter" or " its how game designed so what if AI is stupid , glitches happening , ammo drops from zombies etc etc " . I mean , there is an excuse for EVERY SINGLE thing i mentioned as a negative.

Imagine now Champ behavor to a guy that does the very same things for UC4. Defend every single flaw or weak point and question his comprehensive and analytical skills .. Oh boy !! I would love to see that.

So , having a defending stance for every single RE4 flaw other players mentioned as well thru the years it cant be happening , specially from people that supposed having analytical skills above average. Therefore im talking about double standards.

But i can understand why this is happening , either youre a RE4 big fan like Champ is and you think RE4 has zero flaws or you defending your friend wholeheartly.

Whatever the case , i dont mind. Do as you like , nothing wrong to have your opinion for your own reasons , same with me. Seems you wont accept any flaw i mentioned and instead of say YES , the X thing happening or Z thing is a problem .. you go like " you dont get design , its your fault you see flaws in RE4 , RE4 has no flaws "

Whatever !

We cant further debate when there isnt mutual understanding when one disagrees in every single point the other is making. So i told you before , lets keep our opinions and thats it. We agree to disagree on this. Its all good.

@AzatiS: Isn't that what having a different perspective is about? Because you saying ammo drops, backtracking, decidedly simplistic AI and divisive control schemes are flaws doesn't make them universally flaws for everyone and offering a returning argument or perspective is what conversing is about. Please note that I never made any relation to the flaws Champ had with Uncharted 4. I never stated that either RE4 or Uncharted 4 were flawed, flawless or used these terms as descriptions for those games. Flawless is Tetris as far as I am concerned.

Glitches and bugs, of course are things to be taken as objective flaws but they don't have to be a deciding factor of a game's permanence - at least not to me. I don't believe flawlessness is a synonym of a masterpiece and many of the games I believe are masterpieces (Games like Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Bros., Pandemic or what have you) have either some divisive mechanic, glitch or rule that some people like or dislike.

And I'm not arguing about taste here or discussing some thought toward game design as a means of stating the validity of one person's opinion over another because I don't think that's cool and I don't want to do that. :(

What I do think is important to remember though is that there is a difference between disagreeing with a perspective and stating something as an objective flaw, and that typically when one views a design decision with some background in game design, they can unearth some hows and whys that denote why these decisions were made (whether one agrees with them or not).

Personally, while I hold mad love for my Scampy sugar lump Champ and I want Mark Brown to marry me, I don't really hold any affinity toward RE4. Actually, my reasoning for this conversation being something so personal for me is that I am not of the opinion that it's healthy to call design decision that may be divisive but still clearly well thought out a 'flaw' simply because you disagree with them because doing so suggests that the person holds some kind of authority whereby then I would need to see a level of nuance in this rebuttal.

... That and Champ is just a dote. <3

You jumped in bro , and you keep going , that shows something dont you think ?

Keep defending , i dont mind . My opinions and facts are up there already , nothing more to add or talk about. You dont agree , fine. But i wont take back a single word nor ill excuse every single BS RE4 did in the name of design ! Specially for things that have nothing to do with design and i linked videos and forum posts about.

You wanna keep going ? Do so , i dont mind. But we spamming for nothing and youre not even the guy i was debated with in the first place. So i dont think i have something more to say at this point.

Jump, ya fucked up. What a terrible argument to jump into lol.

I have only played UC4 and have yet to play RotTR ( but plan to play at some point), but from what I have seen, Rise's combat seems more varied but I doubt the story and dialogue are as good as UC4 which is a great game. I enjoyed it very much, especially the conversations and the beautiful and diverse scenery.

UC always has likable characters, which I feel helps the story plod along. UC4 had shat pacing, which was sad, because the gameplay is actually pretty damn good. I preferred RotTR but I honestly think they're pretty even in terms of quality.

Ever watched Commando? It's like that. Obviously self indulgent, self aware, over the top cheese fest nonsense lol. There's no dimension in which the people making that movie actually thought they were crafting something serious.

And it's from one of the dudes behind stuff like Vanquish, Devil May Cry, God Hand, etc. it's certainly not an accident at this point, it's just dudes style, and it's great. Bad ass 80s/90s style action movie cheese.

Trust me, if you played it, you'd get it. It's not some awkward, lost in translation weird shit (like the shit that happens when MGS tries taking itself too seriously). It's very clear what they were going for in RE4.

---

Stuff like this doesn't happen by mistake lol. "No thanks... bro."

@NathanDrakeSwag:"A few thousand hours into MGS4 MP? Holy shit lol. I thought I had too much time into Overwatch and GTAO but damns ."

He's lying.

Nope. Roughly 2500 on my main and just under 1000 on my alt. That's not even too crazy for an online game brehs. Most of that time was spent with DDC, the rest with RB. And a lot of those dudes had way more hours than I did.

@ConanTheStoner:

I was talking about jg4xchamp.

Jump got Jumped!

Soooo you quoted NathanDrakeSwags statement to me in order to say champ is lying?

Ok.

What an idiot.

@jg4xchamp: @ConanTheStoner:

At conan. What? I only replied to nathanswag.

At jg4. Nope you are.

@PSP107:

Bruh.

You quoted NathanDrakeSwag saying this:

A few thousand hours into MGS4 MP? Holy shit lol. I thought I had too much time into Overwatch and GTAO but damns .

Which was a statement he made in direct response to me talking about my time with MGO.

Then you said this:

He's lying.

Insinuating that I was lying. When I called you on it, you said:

I was talking about jg4xchamp.

Which makes no sense lol.

And in turn makes this:

An apt response.

@ConanTheStoner:

Gotcha, will trust you then.

No plans to play any RE between 4-6 anyhow lol. I'm definitely onboard to try out RE7.

I played through Tomb Raider, and got a bit into ROTR before I got distracted with Nioh. Now, I haven't played UC4 yet, so I can't make that comparison. But while I like the new Tomb Raider games, I do find the side missions to indeed be "filler," as TC stated.

@davillain- said:

@lundy86_4 said:

Jump, ya fucked up. What a terrible argument to jump into lol.

Jump got Jumped!

One day I will be sitting on my death bed thinking "Remember that time I had that conversation that led to absolutely nothing. Man, I really wish I had that time ba-bleeeeegh" And then I'll be gone, and I'll never have gotten to see my Grandson's new magic trick. :(

RE4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UC4.

That is all.

"And I wasn't able to dress up Nathan in a cute Baba Yaga outfit. Major disappointment."

So if you could would it be GOAT?

I guess my argument about OP is point 1 - side quests. There are really just the two main types of quests, main quests and side quests. Both are usually similar in task being get to x point, or collect x items, or destroy x things, but the main difference between them is that the main quests progress the games storyline where as side quests don't, but sometimes yield benefits like special loot. Saying that you don't like side quests because they are trivial really only means you don't like completing the tasks and having nothing major to show for it such as progressing the storyline. For many people however, it's these side tasks that give the actual enjoyment for the game (when they are crafted properly - see Witcher 3 for good examples).

With that in mind, I enjoyed both games but had more fun in RoTTR with the combat and different side quests than the large parts of Uncharted 4 where you only had to get from point A to B by land traversal mechanics.