News: European Commission to investigate Xbox360 problems

Yes, because after all, your estimation there were only 100k or less xbox 360's with this error is to me somewhat daring. I was going for that number there if you don't remember. With these statistics, the deviation can still be 500k or some more, but 100k failures is highly unlikely. This is all granted of course they've made no mistakes in calculation.

I was just saying that the estimation was a good thing to go by until we get some better statistics. Also that your 100k number was a little rediculous.  

11Marcel

There is a difference between realistic and unrealistic.

100,000 is realistic. That is 1% of 360's. Or would you rather the 20% just for the drives?

What a convenient answer.

:roll:

isDoooomed

I'm sorry. I can't make you believe me. Thats the wonderful thing about people.

[QUOTE="isDoooomed"]

What a convenient answer.

:roll:

Truth_Hurts_U

I'm sorry. I can't make you believe me. Thats the wonderful thing about people.

I actually had several good answers in mind that would've made me believe you, but you opted for one that surely won't.

I actually had several good answers in mind that would've made me believe you, but you opted for one that surely won't.

isDoooomed

I can't read minds you know. ;)

I don't feel like begging someone to believe me either.

[QUOTE="isDoooomed"]

I actually had several good answers in mind that would've made me believe you, but you opted for one that surely won't.

Truth_Hurts_U

I can't read minds you know. ;)

I don't feel like begging someone to believe me either.

you can make someone believe you. you just have to convince them.

and for so, you have to give reasons. i've successfully done it several times. ;) 

you can make someone believe you. you just have to convince them.

and for so, you have to give reasons. i've successfully done it several times. ;) 

SambaLele

Some people arn't reasonable and are immune to reasoning. How can you persuade someone like that?

Some people arn't reasonable and are immune to reasoning. How can you persuade someone like that?Truth_Hurts_U

[QUOTE="Truth_Hurts_U"]Some people arn't reasonable and are immune to reasoning. How can you persuade someone like that?Jandurin

And if said person is a woman (or otherwise on a diet) or diabetic?HuusAsking

I don't talk to diabetic folk.  (kidding)

I have an Xbox360.  I like it.  I have never had a problem other than occassional freezing.  I have had it since shortly after launch.

Nevertheless, I accept that there are manufacturing issues, especially around the 3 rings/heat/solder issue.

There may very well be another issue on DVD drives and scratching; it is possible.

I have watched the video & read the thread.  I note:

The theory of vibration and the lens and disc coming into contact is interesting and sounds plausible.

The difference in the existence/non-existence of the 4 rubber protection pieces is fairly compelling.

However, the video clearly shows the expert moving the unit from horizontal to vertical position whilst the unit is playing and this occurs at 2:40 of the video as noted by a previous poster.

This calls into question the entire issue.  The video traced black ink which led to the lens and therefore the rubber protection pieces.  However, the black ink transfer came about by deliberately miss treating the DVD by applying tape (to ensure contact), and then turning the whole unit over.

Therefore, we don't know whether the black ink transfer was due to the tape, due to turning over the unit while in play, due to both, or due to none of the above.

We absolutely do not know (from the video) what happens if the unit and DVD are handled correctly.  

Neverthless, it is an interesting hypothesis that needs further examination....I would modify the hypothesis.

Most likely, manufacturing without the rubber safeguards has opened a potential problem...where,

If you aren't careful and turn over the unit you risk disc problems. (user error)

Or the possibility of heat and humidity might slightly warp/change drive/disc configuration such that the a very small margin/room for error is wiped out..and a problem occurs. (manufacturing error)

Or the manufacturing tolerances as a whole are such that some degree of vibration and/or heat/warpage/expansion other than the drive/disc configuration has a cascade effect on the drive/disc configuration, as above, and exceeds the manufacturing tolerance. (manufacturing error)

In any case, while it is potentially a problem it looks like it is readily solved.  I don't view this as particularly material to the core issue of whether the 360 is a good product.  Lots of products have problems in early release.

This is really a customer satisfaction issue, and MS is doing a poor job of managing overall satisfaction issues.  Get to the root and stamp it out.  In the mean time, treat your existing customers like gold...there is no excuse for not treating them well.

And yes, I am very happy with my XBox360 and my game selection

Cheers 

Here is some candy...

No hard feelings.

If we ever get the cold hard facts of what the real numbers are on defective consoles and is more then what MS states. I will be right with you all.

Until then, we can only speculate.

[QUOTE="lusitanogamer"]

That's no excuse. There are people that got their discs scratched without ever moving the console when it was on.

Truth_Hurts_U

Any proof of this? Like a famous YouTube video? I have never see one. Only the people moving there 360's and listening to the disc's turn into mulch.

How many people will film their console the whole time it is in to prove it scratches the disc? 

How many people will film their console the whole time it is in to prove it scratches the disc? readingfc_1

"How long will YOUR console last?"

I have an Xbox360. I like it. I have never had a problem other than occassional freezing. I have had it since shortly after launch.

Nevertheless, I accept that there are manufacturing issues, especially around the 3 rings/heat/solder issue.

There may very well be another issue on DVD drives and scratching; it is possible.

I have watched the video & read the thread. I note:

The theory of vibration and the lens and disc coming into contact is interesting and sounds plausible.

The difference in the existence/non-existence of the 4 rubber protection pieces is fairly compelling.

However, the video clearly shows the expert moving the unit from horizontal to vertical position whilst the unit is playing and this occurs at 2:40 of the video as noted by a previous poster.

This calls into question the entire issue. The video traced black ink which led to the lens and therefore the rubber protection pieces. However, the black ink transfer came about by deliberately miss treating the DVD by applying tape (to ensure contact), and then turning the whole unit over.

Therefore, we don't know whether the black ink transfer was due to the tape, due to turning over the unit while in play, due to both, or due to none of the above.

We absolutely do not know (from the video) what happens if the unit and DVD are handled correctly.

Neverthless, it is an interesting hypothesis that needs further examination....I would modify the hypothesis.

Most likely, manufacturing without the rubber safeguards has opened a potential problem...where,

If you aren't careful and turn over the unit you risk disc problems. (user error)

Or the possibility of heat and humidity might slightly warp/change drive/disc configuration such that the a very small margin/room for error is wiped out..and a problem occurs. (manufacturing error)

Or the manufacturing tolerances as a whole are such that some degree of vibration and/or heat/warpage/expansion other than the drive/disc configuration has a cascade effect on the drive/disc configuration, as above, and exceeds the manufacturing tolerance. (manufacturing error)

In any case, while it is potentially a problem it looks like it is readily solved. I don't view this as particularly material to the core issue of whether the 360 is a good product. Lots of products have problems in early release.

This is really a customer satisfaction issue, and MS is doing a poor job of managing overall satisfaction issues. Get to the root and stamp it out. In the mean time, treat your existing customers like gold...there is no excuse for not treating them well.

And yes, I am very happy with my XBox360 and my game selection

Cheers

SUD123456

That's true. However, the 'I'm turning the 360 while running' manoeuver was just to show the difference in noise levels due to vibration. It is not by any means part of the tests. Kassa (that's the tv show) also did some extra research due to Microsoft claiming: 'we can't see what you've done'.

They had new consoles with new games in different positions and in different environments (completely concrete, living room environment etc.) and filming the test from a lot of camera angles. So everything happened in a controlled environment. After a couple of hours of gaming almost all new games were scratched.

[edit]

I'm talking about this one: part 1

and this one: part 2

[/edit] 

Yup, you can't really argue about the tests. They were handled very good.

I'm just glad mine doesn't seem to be of that batch (its of the lockup when pushing the guide button while loading a game batch though). MS is replacing the consoles, but not the scratched games in the netherlands.

I just wish they'd take responsibility and quit denying it and making it out to like its just consumer error (and yes i know sony was just as arogant with the ps2). 

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

you can make someone believe you. you just have to convince them.

and for so, you have to give reasons. i've successfully done it several times. ;)

Truth_Hurts_U

Some people arn't reasonable and are immune to reasoning. How can you persuade someone like that?

I can only assume you mean me as it was our "discussion" that lead SambaLele to write that post, so what exactly gave you the idea I belong to these people?

The first time I hinted at the fact that I can think of reasons why some of those things happened to you, or the second time? Actually, I believe you that things like these could happen, just not countless times like you described and I would've liked to know how you managed to get hit across a room by a disc.

Oh, right, you don't feel like it, ok.

(Hehe, don't take this post, including this footnote, too serious. It's probably better if I'm out of this thread at this point as it seems like there's no point in discussing with you. Maybe I'll meet your imho lost credibility somewhere out there, wish me luck. ;) )

Edited because I'm stupid 

[QUOTE="SUD123456"]

I have an Xbox360. I like it. I have never had a problem other than occassional freezing. I have had it since shortly after launch.

Nevertheless, I accept that there are manufacturing issues, especially around the 3 rings/heat/solder issue.

There may very well be another issue on DVD drives and scratching; it is possible.

I have watched the video & read the thread. I note:

The theory of vibration and the lens and disc coming into contact is interesting and sounds plausible.

The difference in the existence/non-existence of the 4 rubber protection pieces is fairly compelling.

However, the video clearly shows the expert moving the unit from horizontal to vertical position whilst the unit is playing and this occurs at 2:40 of the video as noted by a previous poster.

This calls into question the entire issue. The video traced black ink which led to the lens and therefore the rubber protection pieces. However, the black ink transfer came about by deliberately miss treating the DVD by applying tape (to ensure contact), and then turning the whole unit over.

Therefore, we don't know whether the black ink transfer was due to the tape, due to turning over the unit while in play, due to both, or due to none of the above.

We absolutely do not know (from the video) what happens if the unit and DVD are handled correctly.

Neverthless, it is an interesting hypothesis that needs further examination....I would modify the hypothesis.

Most likely, manufacturing without the rubber safeguards has opened a potential problem...where,

If you aren't careful and turn over the unit you risk disc problems. (user error)

Or the possibility of heat and humidity might slightly warp/change drive/disc configuration such that the a very small margin/room for error is wiped out..and a problem occurs. (manufacturing error)

Or the manufacturing tolerances as a whole are such that some degree of vibration and/or heat/warpage/expansion other than the drive/disc configuration has a cascade effect on the drive/disc configuration, as above, and exceeds the manufacturing tolerance. (manufacturing error)

In any case, while it is potentially a problem it looks like it is readily solved. I don't view this as particularly material to the core issue of whether the 360 is a good product. Lots of products have problems in early release.

This is really a customer satisfaction issue, and MS is doing a poor job of managing overall satisfaction issues. Get to the root and stamp it out. In the mean time, treat your existing customers like gold...there is no excuse for not treating them well.

And yes, I am very happy with my XBox360 and my game selection

Cheers

dirktu

That's true. However, the 'I'm turning the 360 while running' manoeuver was just to show the difference in noise levels due to vibration. It is not by any means part of the tests. Kassa (that's the tv show) also did some extra research due to Microsoft claiming: 'we can't see what you've done'.

They had new consoles with new games in different positions and in different environments (completely concrete, living room environment etc.) and filming the test from a lot of camera angles. So everything happened in a controlled environment. After a couple of hours of gaming almost all new games were scratched.

[edit]

I'm talking about this one: part 1

and this one: part 2

[/edit] 

Thanks for the extra links...they were very helpful.

It looks certain that there is a problem with the Toshiba/Samsung drive.

I will check what kind of drive I have when I get home.

Thanks for bringing this topic up.  I love my XBox360 but can acknowledge legitimate customer complaints.  MS better be careful to handle this well or it will cost them...which would be a shame because overall the 'system' and its games is excellent IMO.

Thanks again

Update:

First international source that touches the subject:

Meglena Kuneva's official EC webpage

"During her visit to the Netherlands Commissioner Kuneva spoke with the Dutch Radio Consumer Programme "KASSA". Following concerns raised by the KASSA programme in relation to the use of the Microsoft X-Box by Dutch consumers, Commissioner Kuneva confirmed that she had written to Microsoft to ask for more information concerning:

(1) details of the actions Microsoft has taken in The Netherlands to resolve the problems relating to the use of the X-Box there;

(2) details of whether the same problem has occurred on other markets."

First spoken words directly from the horse's mouth:

Dutch radio interview excerpt wait approx. 30 second, you'll hear her speak English.

I will try to put all this stuff in my first post in this thread.

[Edit] DONE :) [/Edit] 

[QUOTE="lusitanogamer"]

That's no excuse. There are people that got their discs scratched without ever moving the console when it was on.

Truth_Hurts_U

Any proof of this? Like a famous YouTube video? I have never see one. Only the people moving there 360's and listening to the disc's turn into mulch.

Yeah.
Like my Xbox, which I'm getting back today, which I had to send in because of intense disc drive errors that crashed my Oblivion disc and put a massive scratch around it, even though I never moved the system from it's position,  where it was on a flat, even surface, where it was above the ground, so it wasn't carpet.

I'm surprised Consumer Reports hasn't gone into the subject...or the CPSC (because there's a safety lawsuit filed against Microsoft at present).HuusAsking

yes but that lawsuit is regarding the power adapter for the xbox 1 which ms sent replacement units to every xbox 1 owner. they actually sent me 2 of them a few years ago. 

It's definitely a good thing that they're going after Microsoft for their crap hardware. But I'm a bit upset that they're apparently completely ignoring the larger issue, the 3RLOD. Hopefully that's next on their to do list.

Reportedly a firm is preparing a clas action lawsuit for the same thing in the US. The ****ty hardware and attitude is starting to bite Microsoft in the ass. Finally.

It's definitely a good thing that they're going after Microsoft for their crap hardware. But I'm a bit upset that they're apparently completely ignoring the larger issue, the 3RLOD. Hopefully that's next on their to do list.InsaneBasura

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]I'm surprised Consumer Reports hasn't gone into the subject...or the CPSC (because there's a safety lawsuit filed against Microsoft at present).latinrage69

yes but that lawsuit is regarding the power adapter for the xbox 1 which ms sent replacement units to every xbox 1 owner. they actually sent me 2 of them a few years ago.

[QUOTE="latinrage69"]

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]I'm surprised Consumer Reports hasn't gone into the subject...or the CPSC (because there's a safety lawsuit filed against Microsoft at present).HuusAsking

yes but that lawsuit is regarding the power adapter for the xbox 1 which ms sent replacement units to every xbox 1 owner. they actually sent me 2 of them a few years ago.

No System is Perfect!

I love my 360 no matter what. Might get a Wii soon.... 

[QUOTE="dirktu"]A lot of proof, try googling Kassa (that's the Dutch TV show that did the tests).Truth_Hurts_U

I don't want tests. I want a real world environment.

There is gotta be a video somewhere if this is "so big".

I went over to my XBL addicted friend's house, who has already had a 360 die on him, and he said his new one is scratching his discs and now barely reads Gears (he is WELL aware of it scratching from tilting after an incident when he got it). Sadly his solution is probably going to be buying an Elite instead of giving up on M$ crap hardware.... he's way too addicted to XBL. There's some real world environment testing for you.

No System is Perfect!

I love my 360 no matter what. Might get a Wii soon....

Hermitkermit

I don't see how protecting consumer interests should get in the way of 'loving one's system' :| 

HUMP DA BUMP :)

Please forgive me for the double post and bump and all, but seeing other threads being created on the same subject and beginning the discussion all over again I wanted to bump this thread.

Please refer to the first post in this thread for all the videos. ;)

I would have got a 360 months ago if not for the potential problems, but its worth the risk with some warranty. According to people in places like this the PS2 is a time bomb, but I've had mine for 4 years and its in perfect working order (even better condition than my Cube).tomarlyn

That's exactly the issue. This is not a "I hate the 360" or "down with M$" thread, the whole EC thing is about consumer protection; according to Microsoft the disc scratching problem isn't covered by warranty as "it's not their fault". The only place they did help their customers a little is in the Netherlands, but only after several airings of Kassa. 

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]I would have got a 360 months ago if not for the potential problems, but its worth the risk with some warranty. According to people in places like this the PS2 is a time bomb, but I've had mine for 4 years and its in perfect working order (even better condition than my Cube).dirktu

That's exactly the issue. This is not a "I hate the 360" or "down with M$" thread, the whole EC thing is about consumer protection; according to Microsoft the disc scratching problem isn't covered by warranty as "it's not their fault". The only place they did help their customers a little is in the Netherlands, but only after several airings of Kassa.

Are the systems available now exactly how they were at launch? Has there been like any revisions whatsoever? 

[QUOTE="dirktu"]

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]I would have got a 360 months ago if not for the potential problems, but its worth the risk with some warranty. According to people in places like this the PS2 is a time bomb, but I've had mine for 4 years and its in perfect working order (even better condition than my Cube).tomarlyn

That's exactly the issue. This is not a "I hate the 360" or "down with M$" thread, the whole EC thing is about consumer protection; according to Microsoft the disc scratching problem isn't covered by warranty as "it's not their fault". The only place they did help their customers a little is in the Netherlands, but only after several airings of Kassa.

Are the systems available now exactly how they were at launch? Has there been like any revisions whatsoever?

I'm no 360 expert whatsoever, but the disc scratching problem seems to be retraced largely to the disc drives put in the consoles by the end of 2006 (see the videos & rest of thread for more details). So technically I wouldn't call it a revision, but the production line seems to have changed a little. The 'cushions' around the lens that prevent it from touching the disc aren't there.

I don't think the removal of the digital out from the gamecube was considered to be revision either, but that's really a definition thing ;) (like everyone can state their products are 'fresh' when e.g. 'fresh' fish is being transported for about 14 days)

Although I don't doubt many of the complains are probably the users fault, it's no excuse to sugar-coat the fact that the 360 hardware can be problematic.

My 360 has scratched my Oblivion disc 2 times, and I had to take the disc for polishing to make it work again. I treat my systems and games with utmost care, I certainly never moved my system while playing the game.

The 360 hardware is faulty, the level of fault rate can indeed get exaggerated by certain people, but it's faulty nonetheless, and it should be adressed, the sooner the better. 

From http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25672605

No real issue here, the laser scratches the disc not the centrifugal force. The vibrations come from the motor in the drive ansd presumably from the coolers inside the xbox360. The funny part tho is that my DVD-RW drives rotate the discs faster (24,000 RPM 48x write speed)  as the Xbox360 drive yet as said I can throw them in the air, turn them around anything I like, while operational - they will halt the disc stop it's spinning "reading/writing" until it's safe and stable again and then continue whatever it was doing.

On a side note, the DVDs are not perfectly ballanced to start with, but they are no way so heavily out of ballance that the spinning could cause such enormous vibrations.

F-Minus

 You do realize that the impact force is far greater @8000 rpm (12x DVD) then @500 rpm (audio-CD)? Even if the lens of your car CD-player touches the disc it doesn't necessarily scratch it. 48x CD = 10800 rpm btw, same as 16x DVD. You can't throw around your DVD-RW-drive unless it's a laptop drive made for moving, that securely holds the disc in place. The 360s DVD is basically a standard PC DVD-ROM-drive with a fancier front, you shouldn't move it while operating.

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="latinrage69"]

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]I'm surprised Consumer Reports hasn't gone into the subject...or the CPSC (because there's a safety lawsuit filed against Microsoft at present).11Marcel

yes but that lawsuit is regarding the power adapter for the xbox 1 which ms sent replacement units to every xbox 1 owner. they actually sent me 2 of them a few years ago.

though the lawsuit was filed in december 2006 and states the xbox 360 as the cause of the fire, the lawsuit is actually towards the xbox 1 because the fire took place in december 2004, 1 year before the xbox 360 launched. the suit also contends to the power adapter, as of now, there is nothing wrong with the power adapter in the 360, just the over-heating of the console itself.

I would have got a 360 months ago if not for the potential problems, but its worth the risk with some warranty. According to people in places like this the PS2 is a time bomb, but I've had mine for 4 years and its in perfect working order (even better condition than my Cube).tomarlyn

I have this huge board on my Gamecube to keep the cover closed....Never had a problem with my PS2 I did have a PS1 go on me....But that was after I got it wet 

true that i went through 2 360's becuse of the Red rings of deathEubanks360

the problem they're investigating is the the disk scratching, not the ring of death.

No System is Perfect!

I love my 360 no matter what. Might get a Wii soon....

Hermitkermit

Of course no console is perfect but having that many bugs in a system is insane..Microsoft needs to be put in its place..And you supportin them is just goin to make things much worster. Stop degrading yourself by letting them rip you guys off..How many more xbox360 need to die before anything seriously happens?