Ninja Gaiden vs. God of war

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Furbyballistik

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#101 Furbyballistik
Member since 2005 • 2056 Posts
you guys need to understand that gameplay doesnt only involve combat, it involves everthing else that you are pretty much controlling and is happening in-game..and GOW offers soo much more.. flipping from wall to wall doesnt make NG better than GOW eitherz(even thou it sure is fun!)
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Sharingan100

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#102 Sharingan100
Member since 2007 • 40 Posts

you guys act like your opinions matter....but truth is going to be told, and the better GAME is God Of War 1+2.....while Ninja Gaiden soley focuses on gameplay, God of War focusing on everything as a whole!! the better GAME involves an engadging story, with great production values, a really badass main character! a good combo system that involves leveling up to your weapons, your magic and even yourself!! it involves good camera control!! ALOT of variety to the gameplay!! (using puzzles to defeat enemies, minigames during boss fights AND to traverse around certain segments of the levels, races against time! and SOO MUCH MORE!) ,its accesible to the hardcore, and casual audience!! and any game that can be EPIC from start to finish is simply THE better "GAME!!" as for combat, we all know that the combat is definatly better than GOW's, but combat alone doesnt make a game better then all the things ive stated above....unless the things i stated above wasnt executed greatly...im not a hater of NG! i infact love the game ALOT!! i play it all the time on my ps3!! its just that i KNOW the better "GAME" is GOW.....i never had an AWSOME experience with a game from start to finish...and GOW was the first game to offer that to me....what parts in NG was able to make you go "HOLY CRAP!!!" unless it was from fusturation???? and for the person that posted the ratings for both games...i just got back from gamerankings, and checked out both scores...and the rating for GOW 1 was 93.2% while Ninja Gaiden was 92.0% ninja gaiden black got a higher score(93.9%) but im not adding that because its a special edition...its obviously gonna get a better score after comming out a while later with alot of extra content...how high do you think GOW's ranking would go up if it was to come out with a special edition, with online leaderboards and other extras that enhance the gameplay??? if you guys feel NG is the better GAME, then please go ahead and explain why..thank youFurbyballistik

*eyes burning*

Please....please use paragraphs...

GOW had great presentation values and good gameplay.

NG had bad presentation values but great gameplay.

btw, has anyone actually finished all the missions/challenges of NGB/NG:S?

omg.....think of the achievements itagaki will make for NG2.....T.T

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Luigi_Vincetana

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#103 Luigi_Vincetana
Member since 2004 • 7389 Posts
Ninja Gaiden, Easily. GoW is fun but Ninja Gaiden definitely has the upper hand. Also I disagree when people say GoW has the better storyline. At least I can laugh at Ninja Gaiden's terrible plot, GoW on the other hand only left me with the urge to Shoot Kratos in the head.
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Kritical_Strike

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#104 Kritical_Strike
Member since 2006 • 4123 Posts

*eyes burning*

Please....please use paragraphs...

GOW had great presentation values and good gameplay.

NG had bad presentation values but great gameplay.

btw, has anyone actually finished all the missions/challenges of NGB/NG:S?

omg.....think of the achievements itagaki will make for NG2.....T.T

Sharingan100

I hope by 'bad presentation values' you mean bad story, because NG's visuals run circles around GoW

And yes I have completed all of the missions on NGB on MN 8)

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Sharingan100

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#105 Sharingan100
Member since 2007 • 40 Posts
[QUOTE="Sharingan100"]

*eyes burning*

Please....please use paragraphs...

GOW had great presentation values and good gameplay.

NG had bad presentation values but great gameplay.

btw, has anyone actually finished all the missions/challenges of NGB/NG:S?

omg.....think of the achievements itagaki will make for NG2.....T.T

Kritical_Strike

I hope by 'bad presentation values' you mean bad story, because NG's visuals run circles around GoW

And yes I have completed all of the missions on NGB on MN 8)

Yea, sorry about that. The cutscenes were damn nice though. And it is hard to believe NG was an xbox game.

Really?...holy ****.....

The thing is that you find NG hell hard at the beginning and even for the rest of the game. But when you go back to the beginning and own the first few enemies, you realize that the whole game was just training your speed, reflexes and combos to make you a ninja. It's then that you really feel like a real badass ninja.

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solidte

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#106 solidte
Member since 2005 • 3616 Posts

Ninja Gaiden, Easily. GoW is fun but Ninja Gaiden definitely has the upper hand. Also I disagree when people say GoW has the better storyline. At least I can laugh at Ninja Gaiden's terrible plot, GoW on the other hand only left me with the urge to Shoot Kratos in the head.Luigi_Vincetana

How come?

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FindRb

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#107 FindRb
Member since 2006 • 111 Posts
God of War for me, well never played Ninja Gaiden (Expect the demo of ps3 version)
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Ryuga_Otoku

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#108 Ryuga_Otoku
Member since 2007 • 25 Posts

Of course God of War is better than NG

Kratos is too bad to be hero :twisted:. That`s why I love it........

NG is good too IMO. But good gameplay with boring storyline:?. Not my cup of tea....

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WeeWeeJumbo

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#109 WeeWeeJumbo
Member since 2005 • 5380 Posts

It's bizarre to me that there are arguments over the gameplay in this comparison; GoW 1 and 2 are obviously button mashers, and the NG games are obviously much more technically demanding. Each series was built from the ground up to appeal to different crowds. To say that GoW isn't a button masher is to say that David Jaffe didn't succeed in building the crowd-pleaser that we all know he built. And we know he built a crowd-pleaser, not a DMC3, not a NGB.

GOD OF WAR IS MUCH EASIER AND MUCH SIMPLER THAN NINJA GAIDEN. So if you want to choose which one you favor, please, do yourself a favor and stop trying to champion the enormous complexity of God of War's fighting engine;that's ridiculous. Yes, there are a lot of dope moves, but you only need to know about two or three of them. That's partly because the enemies are sandbags, and partly becauseyour moves strike in all directions at a high speed and range. Calling a favorite between the two series really indicates what is more important to you: are non-game elements like storyline, music, dialogue and voice acting more important? Or is core gameplay more important? Yes, in a perfect world, every game would have both: God of War would have cunning enemies that force the player to choose his moves carefully, the moves wouldn't reach halfway across the screen in all directions, magic wouldn't be so effective and inexpensive; and Ninja Gaiden would have dialogue, plotline and musical score that we'd remember longer than a few seconds. Alas. Alack.

I do think it's just a cop-out though, to discount superior gameplay (as in Ninja Gaiden) because it isn't backed up by an engaging storyline. Doesn't that disqualify every sports, racing, and fighting game from the 'good games' list, not to mention most multiplayer games in general?Top-quality gameplay is its own justification. Can't we take that for granted by now?

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kevy619

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#110 kevy619
Member since 2004 • 5617 Posts
Ninja Gaiden is by far the better game, and God of War isnt the uber hit that people think it is. I think Ninja Gaiden 2 will outsell God of War 1 or 2 easily. I havent seen God of War 3 yet, so I wont comment on it.
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WeeWeeJumbo

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#111 WeeWeeJumbo
Member since 2005 • 5380 Posts

Ninja Gaiden is by far the better game, and God of War isnt the uber hit that people think it is. I think Ninja Gaiden 2 will outsell God of War 1 or 2 easily. I havent seen God of War 3 yet, so I wont comment on it.kevy619

What do you mean when you say GoW isn't the uber hit that people think it is?

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Yongying

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#112 Yongying
Member since 2007 • 1220 Posts

Gow 1 + 2 were awsome. I never found interest to replay either after i beat them though.

I beat NG black atleast 7 times.

NG > GOW without a doubt.

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kevy619

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#113 kevy619
Member since 2004 • 5617 Posts

[QUOTE="kevy619"]Ninja Gaiden is by far the better game, and God of War isnt the uber hit that people think it is. I think Ninja Gaiden 2 will outsell God of War 1 or 2 easily. I havent seen God of War 3 yet, so I wont comment on it.WeeWeeJumbo

What do you mean when you say GoW isn't the uber hit that people think it is?

Sales wise, by the way people talk about you would think it sells GTA like numbers.

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Luigi_Vincetana

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#114 Luigi_Vincetana
Member since 2004 • 7389 Posts

[QUOTE="Luigi_Vincetana"]Ninja Gaiden, Easily. GoW is fun but Ninja Gaiden definitely has the upper hand. Also I disagree when people say GoW has the better storyline. At least I can laugh at Ninja Gaiden's terrible plot, GoW on the other hand only left me with the urge to Shoot Kratos in the head.solidte

How come?

Because Kratos is, completely and utterly, Mentally retarded. For example take this quote from Kratos "I am trying to make my opponents, and the player, deaf with my annoying retard yell... Grr!" Ok I now that wasn't what he was actually saying but thats what I heard before my ears started bleeding. Lets not even go as far as to mention that Kratos's motives for vengeance are just downright stupid and cowardly.
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kevy619

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#115 kevy619
Member since 2004 • 5617 Posts
[QUOTE="solidte"]

[QUOTE="Luigi_Vincetana"]Ninja Gaiden, Easily. GoW is fun but Ninja Gaiden definitely has the upper hand. Also I disagree when people say GoW has the better storyline. At least I can laugh at Ninja Gaiden's terrible plot, GoW on the other hand only left me with the urge to Shoot Kratos in the head.Luigi_Vincetana

How come?

Because Kratos is, completely and utterly, Mentally retarded. For example take this quote from Kratos "I am trying to make my opponents, and the player, deaf with my annoying retard yell... Grr!" Ok I now that wasn't what he was actually saying but thats what I heard before my ears started bleeding. Lets not even go as far as to mention that Kratos's motives for vengeance are just downright stupid and cowardly.

lol, honestly though i found the story in God of War 2 to be cheese. The acting was just so over the top and the plot was pretty thin.

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Luigi_Vincetana

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#116 Luigi_Vincetana
Member since 2004 • 7389 Posts
[QUOTE="Luigi_Vincetana"][QUOTE="solidte"]

[QUOTE="Luigi_Vincetana"]Ninja Gaiden, Easily. GoW is fun but Ninja Gaiden definitely has the upper hand. Also I disagree when people say GoW has the better storyline. At least I can laugh at Ninja Gaiden's terrible plot, GoW on the other hand only left me with the urge to Shoot Kratos in the head.kevy619

How come?

Because Kratos is, completely and utterly, Mentally retarded. For example take this quote from Kratos "I am trying to make my opponents, and the player, deaf with my annoying retard yell... Grr!" Ok I now that wasn't what he was actually saying but thats what I heard before my ears started bleeding. Lets not even go as far as to mention that Kratos's motives for vengeance are just downright stupid and cowardly.

lol, honestly though i found the story in God of War 2 to be cheese. The acting was just so over the top and the plot was pretty thin.

Thank God someone else agrees. The way people talk about GoW's story and production values on threads like these you'd think it was Peter Jackson's the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Saying GoW's story is better than NG's is like saying urine smells better than feces.
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WeeWeeJumbo

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#117 WeeWeeJumbo
Member since 2005 • 5380 Posts

lol, honestly though i found the story in God of War 2 to be cheese. The acting was just so over the top and the plot was pretty thin.kevy619

Hm, interesting. I have NGB and GoW1 and GoW2 (and DMC3--I don't know, I just think it's necessary to say that), and I definitely think NGB is the cream of last generation's hack and slash crop, but I give full props to GoW's non-game elements. The storyline itself is not that amazing or surprising, but the storytelling is absolutely top-tier, in my opinion. Maybe some people chafe at Kratos' personality; I guess I can understand that. But his badassery is really well-conveyed in GoW; I mean, compare Kratos' badassery to Dante's, from DMC3. Kratos comes across as a living nightmare; Dante comes across as an embarrassing cartoon. Ryu comes across as this... ninja, which is cool, but it's hard to feel like you're actually in his shoes; the gameplay definitely makes the player feel like he is becoming a ninja in real life, but the only things I really remember about Ryu as a character in the Ninja Gaiden story are his name and voice (he's a tenor). What is he fighting for, again? A sword, or something?

The set pieces and boss designs in GoW are also much more interesting than those in NG; GoW feels more like a ****c action-adventure game, which fits, considering that NG is really a fighting game. Also, I think God of War's soundtrack is one of the best I've ever heard in all my years of gaming. I love me some NGB, but I can't remember the soundtrack at all, even when I really try.

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Jenova_Flare

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#118 Jenova_Flare
Member since 2007 • 1364 Posts

I dont care if people call me a noob or whatever, I played the demo of NG and couldn't beat the boss. Presuming this was the first level, I didn't even bother buying the game due to its difficulty. Because they didn't want to appeal to casuals as well as hardcore players, they no doubt lost money on sales.

Its all well and good making a game so hard that only hardcore players can complete it, but where sales are concerned, this seems like a shot in the foot to me.

On the other hand I bought and completed both God of Wars, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Infact due to how impressed I was with them, I may end up forking out for a PS3 when GOW 3 comes out. Unless some tweaks are made to NG2 in terms of easier difficulties and amore forgiving learning curve, I will not be purchasing NG2for my 360.

So Ive gotta go with GOW on this one, even though I enjoyed NG's combat (up until the boss).

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solidte

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#119 solidte
Member since 2005 • 3616 Posts
[QUOTE="solidte"]

[QUOTE="Luigi_Vincetana"]Ninja Gaiden, Easily. GoW is fun but Ninja Gaiden definitely has the upper hand. Also I disagree when people say GoW has the better storyline. At least I can laugh at Ninja Gaiden's terrible plot, GoW on the other hand only left me with the urge to Shoot Kratos in the head.Luigi_Vincetana

How come?

Because Kratos is, completely and utterly, Mentally retarded. For example take this quote from Kratos "I am trying to make my opponents, and the player, deaf with my annoying retard yell... Grr!" Ok I now that wasn't what he was actually saying but thats what I heard before my ears started bleeding. Lets not even go as far as to mention that Kratos's motives for vengeance are just downright stupid and cowardly.

Spoilers

Well i don't see how, he accidentally kills his family because he is blinded by Aries so he gets pissed off like I'm sure many would and puts a sword through his neck. For GOW2, Zues murders him and he get's pissed off and bashes Zues head into a rock a few times, i don't see why his motives are stupid and cowardly, Kratos isn't a optimistic guy, get in the way of his goal and feel the wrath of his chained blades. You don't explain why his motives are stupid and cowardly.

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Bren128

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#120 Bren128
Member since 2003 • 2358 Posts
Well God of war has boobs. Cant forget about that . and its def more popular worldwide.
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Franky-the-bat

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#121 Franky-the-bat
Member since 2006 • 977 Posts

Have both finished both, my opinion means more than probably most of you here.

GoW is noob friendly, you can pull of cool looking combos but it's just a button masher.

NG is a much better game overall.

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ragrdoll21

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#122 ragrdoll21
Member since 2006 • 6048 Posts

Have both finished both, my opinion means more than probably most of you here.

GoW is noob friendly, you can pull of cool looking combos but it's just a button masher.

NG is a much better game overall.

Franky-the-bat
By over all you mean harder right?If so, yes you're right.It's a matter of opinion.GOW has better character development better story and Kratos is a "talking" bad ass.NG is a hardcore masterpiece but a turn off because at times it stops being fun and starts becoming annoying.I'll take a GOW game any day but NG2 looks damn good!
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Hitamaru-homia

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#123 Hitamaru-homia
Member since 2006 • 2046 Posts
David Jaffe>Itagaki
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Hinata237

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#124 Hinata237
Member since 2006 • 9416 Posts
Ninja Gaiden owns God of war.
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Tamarind_Face

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#125 Tamarind_Face
Member since 2007 • 2270 Posts

I bet most of the people who said Ninja Gaiden havent even finished the game. Really typical for a lemming... Im really excited to see these lems who are excited with Ninja Gaiden 2 to play it.

Im gonna LOL so hard when they rant on this website saying "OMG! im fraking frustrated, NG2 is so hard".

I expect Team Ninja to release a Ninja Gaiden 2 with no easy mode then after 6 months rerelease it with easy mode then call it Ninja Gaiden 2 black.

And yes Ninja Gaiden is better as a Game but when it comes to fun God of War destroys Ninja Gaiden.

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zaid55

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#126 zaid55
Member since 2005 • 1132 Posts
NG more tougher, God Of War very nice. Dam can not choose both are soo good.
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DeadMan1290

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#127 DeadMan1290
Member since 2005 • 15754 Posts

Storyline- God of War

Gameplay- Ninja Gaiden

Pope_3000

Agree. Combine those 2 elements and you get Ninja of War:lol:

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ragrdoll21

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#128 ragrdoll21
Member since 2006 • 6048 Posts
Ninja Gaiden owns God of war.Hinata237
Sure.:roll:
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BatmanBegins24

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#129 BatmanBegins24
Member since 2005 • 7520 Posts
As you guys probably know, I'm a lemming.And the sad part is that the first Ninja Gaiden I owned was Sigma for the PS3.And after playing a bit of that (I'm no where near finished so I can't give you a full opinion yet) I think that God of War is better.I loved the story and art design for God of War.But Ninja Gaiden is way more hardcore,fast-paced and just plain bad ass.So God of War for now.Although my opinion can change.
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DeadMan1290

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#130 DeadMan1290
Member since 2005 • 15754 Posts

[QUOTE="Hinata237"]Ninja Gaiden owns God of war.ragrdoll21
Sure.:roll:

But he's right:?

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Blackbond

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#131 Blackbond
Member since 2005 • 24516 Posts
Gameplay > Everything else. You name it good gameplay is better then it.
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BreakingPoint8

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#132 BreakingPoint8
Member since 2007 • 3347 Posts
Gameplay > Everything else. You name it good gameplay is better then it.Blackbond
Ninja Gaiden is the best action game, why is there a debate? Gameplay is king. God of War comes in second, still a must own. Oh, and Heavenly Sword is trash compared to GoW or NG. FACT.
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toxicmog

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#133 toxicmog
Member since 2006 • 6355 Posts

for serious challenge and fun...NG

for accessible and not too challenging fun...GOW

Awinagainov

yep, but some of the puzzels in GOW 2 were like, ARGH!!! Annoying.....

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ragrdoll21

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#134 ragrdoll21
Member since 2006 • 6048 Posts

[QUOTE="ragrdoll21"][QUOTE="Hinata237"]Ninja Gaiden owns God of war.DeadMan1290

Sure.:roll:

But he's right:?

To say either one of these games owns the other is a disservice to BOTH games.You can have your preference but to say that just shows the fanboy inyou. You guys have probably never even played GOW1 or 2. I have NG:Sigma and both games are top notch.NG is hardcore and GOW is very assessible. I prefer GOW to NG but only because NG can get VERY frustrating at times.
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DeadMan1290

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#135 DeadMan1290
Member since 2005 • 15754 Posts
[QUOTE="DeadMan1290"]

[QUOTE="ragrdoll21"][QUOTE="Hinata237"]Ninja Gaiden owns God of war.ragrdoll21

Sure.:roll:

But he's right:?

To say either one of these games owns the other is a disservice to BOTH games.You can have your preference but to say that just shows the fanboy inyou. You guys have probably never even played GOW1 or 2. I have NG:Sigma and both games are top notch.NG is hardcore and GOW is very assessible. I prefer GOW to NG but only because NG can get VERY frustrating at times.

Doesn't anyone like hard games these days??

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ragrdoll21

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#136 ragrdoll21
Member since 2006 • 6048 Posts
[QUOTE="Blackbond"]Gameplay > Everything else. You name it good gameplay is better then it.BreakingPoint8
Ninja Gaiden is the best action game, why is there a debate? Gameplay is king. God of War comes in second, still a must own. Oh, and Heavenly Sword is trash compared to GoW or NG. FACT.

HS is damn good game.It's not a NG or GOW but damn is it close.The story is on par with GOW though.
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ragrdoll21

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#137 ragrdoll21
Member since 2006 • 6048 Posts
[QUOTE="ragrdoll21"][QUOTE="DeadMan1290"]

[QUOTE="ragrdoll21"][QUOTE="Hinata237"]Ninja Gaiden owns God of war.DeadMan1290

Sure.:roll:

But he's right:?

To say either one of these games owns the other is a disservice to BOTH games.You can have your preference but to say that just shows the fanboy inyou. You guys have probably never even played GOW1 or 2. I have NG:Sigma and both games are top notch.NG is hardcore and GOW is very assessible. I prefer GOW to NG but only because NG can get VERY frustrating at times.

Doesn't anyone like hard games these days??

Hard yes, FRUSTRATING no!
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DeadMan1290

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#138 DeadMan1290
Member since 2005 • 15754 Posts

[Hard yes, FRUSTRATING no!ragrdoll21

Agree. I got frustrated in Level 2 fighting the 4 horsemen before the boss. That got on my nerves. But I'm better now:D

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buuzer0

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#139 buuzer0
Member since 2005 • 3792 Posts

Well God of war has boobs. Cant forget about that . and its def more popular worldwide.Bren128

I can't argue with that... but Ninja Gaiden has Boobs too! Large boobs... boobs covered with monster slime... even pink demon boobs if you're into that sort of thing. But, they're never "unleashed/uncovered" like they are in GoW though. :cry:

But anyway, I haven't played through the GoW games, but I have played through Ninja Gaiden, which I found to be one of the most challenging and satisfying action games I've ever played.

So, it gets my biased vote :P.

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turgore

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#140 turgore
Member since 2006 • 7859 Posts

Seriously after playing ninja gaiden for xbox i was...for me it was THE BEST ACTION GAME EVER

untill GOD OF WAR 2

Squall_Griver

Maybe until Ninja Gaiden Sigma. God of War is a button masher for casuals.

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pastro243

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#141 pastro243
Member since 2007 • 647 Posts
Both ninja gaiden sigma and god of war are great, just like DMC an KH2
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sureurmi

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#142 sureurmi
Member since 2009 • 25 Posts

If you think in the gaming manner then-

Story- GoW without thinking....

Gameplay-NG

Character-Draw....

Replay Value-NG

Blood and Gore-Close 1 but GoW wins 'cause of GoW 3's BADA** finishers.... but the obliration tech. in NG rock 2....

Weapons-NG anyday

So in the end it comes down to personal preference....if you like a GREAT story and 9999999999 gallons of blood pick GoW, if u like BADA** obliration, extreme challenge, 9999999998 gallons of blood and 1 of the BEST fighting mechanics, pick NG.....

For me, NG wins...

But when u compare Ryu and Kratos 1v1 soul caliber type fighting-

Speed-Ryu anyday

Power-Kratos

Magic-Draw

Weapons-Ryu

Dodging-Ryu

Ryu would oblirate Kratos....

NG FTW!!!! WOOT!!!! WOOT!!!!

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Bazooka_4ME

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#143 Bazooka_4ME
Member since 2008 • 2540 Posts
Good ol' Fuzzysquash and Blackbond... I still like Devil May Cry better than both.
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NWA90s

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#144 NWA90s
Member since 2010 • 859 Posts
Ninja Gaiden beats God of War by miles and miles...God of War is nothing in comparion.-.-' I was VERY dissapointedwhen I got God of War,was way too easy even on the hardest setting and repetitive...I had no will to beat the game.I guess my standards are too high after playing NGB and DMC.killab2oo5
if say GOW is easy, yet you play DMC, LOL
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NWA90s

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#145 NWA90s
Member since 2010 • 859 Posts

If you think in the gaming manner then-

Story- GoW without thinking....

Gameplay-NG

Character-Draw....

Replay Value-NG

Blood and Gore-Close 1 but GoW wins 'cause of GoW 3's BADA** finishers.... but the obliration tech. in NG rock 2....

Weapons-NG anyday

So in the end it comes down to personal preference....if you like a GREAT story and 9999999999 gallons of blood pick GoW, if u like BADA** obliration, extreme challenge, 9999999998 gallons of blood and 1 of the BEST fighting mechanics, pick NG.....

For me, NG wins...

But when u compare Ryu and Kratos 1v1 soul caliber type fighting-

Speed-Ryu anyday

Power-Kratos

Magic-Draw

Weapons-Ryu

Dodging-Ryu

Ryu would oblirate Kratos....

NG FTW!!!! WOOT!!!! WOOT!!!!

sureurmi
you should added graphics too there, and how arent gow characters better then those in ng? all i can say is that kratos escaped hell 3 times, killed something 1000x his size, and then killed his OWN dad. can ryu do that?
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MobilechicaneX

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#146 MobilechicaneX
Member since 2009 • 2863 Posts

I think you know what i'm going to say going off my avatar.

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TheMoreYouOwn

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#147 TheMoreYouOwn
Member since 2010 • 3927 Posts

Both are great franchises, but prefer Kratos. (anything pertaining to Greek Mythology just holds my interest more)

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konzen29

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#148 konzen29
Member since 2010 • 87 Posts

Cows/manticores should be the only ones allowed to vote, being as we've played both.

God of War by the way, I'm on chapter 9 in Ninja Gaiden Sigma and I'm just not feeling it. :(

Bluestorm-Kalas

because its sigma, its the easiest version of ninja gaiden

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Bazooka_4ME

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#149 Bazooka_4ME
Member since 2008 • 2540 Posts
I'm assuming people haven't realized the date of this thread....:roll: