Non-gamers and Casuals harming Gaming?
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Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring. Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it our ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
[QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="coolguy1111"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="coolguy1111"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"]They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.coolguy1111Wrong. Yea because nintendogs and cooking mama and brain age is good fro video games?? Yea, sure.
Can you tell us why? Or are they just not good for YOU because you too much of a coolguy?
Those games don't deliver awesome gaming experiences like a deep game like RE, or FF can, that's a fact.
And they sell more, take away hype from games like that, and overshadow it alot of times. Hurray big Brain for wii announced!! Its the same thing as the one for ds!! Hurray!! We get to play a trivia game which you can get for free online. Yes, you like opimion always equal fact. Oh because I like RE or FF so much that someone can have an "awesome experience" with a game like Nintendogs. So you like the fact nintendogs sold 6-8x more then UT04?
Keep in mind he's probably a Nintendo fanboy. I'm a Nintendo fan, but I'm not delusional, I see the error of their ways, but the fanboys want to believe Nintendo can never do any wrong.
[QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Your also assuming that game developers get into their job for the money. Which is laughable since game developers tend to make next to nothing. Your assuming that everyone will sell-out and that no developer is making games because it's their passion.The world runs on money. What makes you think the gaming industry is any different? If money wasn't a concern why would they make multiplat games? Sure there will be a few developers that will still make games because they have a passion for it. But the majority.........
If developers just wanted to make a quick buck, they would have gotten into insurence.
goblaa
You have absaluotly nothing to base that off of. You're just assuming.
The word is "absolutely". And yes the world does run on money. And the gaming Industry is apart of the world is it not? You also never answered my questions. You never answered why developers make multiplat games. You basically said nu-uh. I'm sorry but you need a reality check.
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"]They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.goblaaWrong.
Miyamoto basically confirmed it in his speech and Nintendo has basically been saying it for the past year. Nintendo does not want epic games, they want simple, pick up and play trashy mini-game compilations. They don't want games like GTA to exist, instead they're hope is that everybody plays something like Mario Party.
What confrence were you watching? I hate to break it to you, but those 'trashy' mini games are a blast to play. Some people may not like the same kind of games you do (shocker). The problem is that there is a big market of people for those games and NO ONE was making them for consoles. So the vast majority of the world was pretty much being told by game developers "screw you".
Nintendo is expanding, sure....but you act as if metroid, zelda, and mario will cese to exist. Or that every dev in the world will stop making the games they love.
And there lies the problem. Nintendo may keep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid around, but if you look at their new franchises, it's casual crap, they're not trying to make new epic adventures, instead they're giving us mini-games. Now yes, they can be fun when playing games with friends, but sometimes I like to play single player games as well, and I don't see Nintendo pushing for great RPGs or Adventures. They'll give us the standard fare to keep fanboys happy, but when it comes to original content, don't look for a new platformer. And yes, if the Wii takes off, developers will start avoiding the gamers too in favor of following the dollar. Don't give me this "game developers don't get paid a lot, so they're just in it for what they love" garbage either. Everybody in any industry tries to make as much money as possible. Once the market for stuff like MGS, FF, and Gears of War dries up because the overwhelming majority of people buying games are buying crap like Cooking Mama, you will see much more simplistic games. There is no middle ground. Cooking Mama, Wario Ware and the like can not co-exist with FPS or RPGs.
Why would the millions of people buying games like GeoW simply stop buying those kinds of games?
Because developers will stop making them. Simple logic really.
Wow, you might as just well said "Because I said so".
You're the head of a big company, you make a game like Gears of War, it sells two million copies, you feel great. Then you see a simple game like Nintendogs sell more than double what you're game did and it took less time and money for the competing development house to create this. Which direction are you going to go in next time? It won't happen right away, but over time, the market for the more epic games will dry up.
[QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Your also assuming that game developers get into their job for the money. Which is laughable since game developers tend to make next to nothing. Your assuming that everyone will sell-out and that no developer is making games because it's their passion.The world runs on money. What makes you think the gaming industry is any different? If money wasn't a concern why would they make multiplat games? Sure there will be a few developers that will still make games because they have a passion for it. But the majority.........
If developers just wanted to make a quick buck, they would have gotten into insurence.
redCloudJ7
You have absaluotly nothing to base that off of. You're just assuming.
The word is "absolutely". And yes the world does run on money. And the gaming Industry is apart of the world is it not? You also never answered my questions. You never answered why developers make multiplat games. You basically said nu-uh. I'm sorry but you need a reality check.
Developer smake maulti-plats to break even usually. and of course the world runs on money. It always has and always will. Notihng has changed here so I don't see why or how gamming will 'die'. I don't see why game developers making cash off of today's top of the line epic games would simply stop making them. I don't see why people who buy epic hardcore games would stop buying them.
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring. Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it our ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.Blackbond
Give me an example of how Nintendo is trying to reach out to gamers? They don't want games like GTA or RE or MGS to exist, they want stuff like Cooking Mama instead. Doesn't seem to me like they're reaching out to gamers. So no they are in fact not trying to appeal to everybody. And again, the games people say on PS2 that were casual are more than hardcore in comparison to what Nintendo is pushing.
[QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"]They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.Gamer46Wrong.
Miyamoto basically confirmed it in his speech and Nintendo has basically been saying it for the past year. Nintendo does not want epic games, they want simple, pick up and play trashy mini-game compilations. They don't want games like GTA to exist, instead they're hope is that everybody plays something like Mario Party.
What confrence were you watching? I hate to break it to you, but those 'trashy' mini games are a blast to play. Some people may not like the same kind of games you do (shocker). The problem is that there is a big market of people for those games and NO ONE was making them for consoles. So the vast majority of the world was pretty much being told by game developers "screw you".
Nintendo is expanding, sure....but you act as if metroid, zelda, and mario will cese to exist. Or that every dev in the world will stop making the games they love.
And there lies the problem. Nintendo may keep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid around, but if you look at their new franchises, it's casual crap, they're not trying to make new epic adventures, instead they're giving us mini-games. Now yes, they can be fun when playing games with friends, but sometimes I like to play single player games as well, and I don't see Nintendo pushing for great RPGs or Adventures. They'll give us the standard fare to keep fanboys happy, but when it comes to original content, don't look for a new platformer. And yes, if the Wii takes off, developers will start avoiding the gamers too in favor of following the dollar. Don't give me this "game developers don't get paid a lot, so they're just in it for what they love" garbage either. Everybody in any industry tries to make as much money as possible. Once the market for stuff like MGS, FF, and Gears of War dries up because the overwhelming majority of people buying games are buying crap like Cooking Mama, you will see much more simplistic games. There is no middle ground. Cooking Mama, Wario Ware and the like can not co-exist with FPS or RPGs.
Why would the millions of people buying games like GeoW simply stop buying those kinds of games?
Because developers will stop making them. Simple logic really.
Wow, you might as just well said "Because I said so".
You're the head of a big company, you make a game like Gears of War, it sells two million copies, you feel great. Then you see a simple game like Nintendogs sell more than double what you're game did and it took less time and money for the competing development house to create this. Which direction are you going to go in next time? It won't happen right away, but over time, the market for the more epic games will dry up.
Are you hoently going to sit there and tell me that Epic or CliffyB will make a game like Nintendogs or warioware?
[QUOTE="shaggymcp"][QUOTE="redCloudJ7"]Has this been brought up at all?
I have heard people claim that too many non-gamer and casual consumers can actually harm the industry. By causing more developers to make games that appeal to these groups. Instead of focusing and creating new original properties for the hardcore groups. Causing the majority of developers to focus on the non-gamer and casual consumers. The major franchises (that sell very well) for the hardcore would be intact. However the majority of games would be "dumbed" down making them more accessible to non-gamers and casuals. And developers would neglect the hardcore groups in order a to secure greater profit.
What do think about this?
Is this true?
poopinloop32
I agree 100%, Look @ what casual's have done to Nintendo.... The wii will be the first Nintendo system I am going to skip, thx to casual's and lame controls. Could you imagine if they dumbed down a game like Ninja Gaiden for ps3...... or Halo 3 for the Xbox 360 to "make it more appealing" to casuals..... I would quit console gaming.
thats what i promised long ago..if all consoles focus on casuals..im going back to PC gaming Look at Oblivion, they dumbed it down since Morrowind and such, and thats PC and 360. PC has quite load of casual stuff. One quick example is Diner Dashers. You act like all of a sudden bam, all game with be dumbed down and blah blah. Whether or not casuals are larger, hardcores still give a good percent of cash into pockets. Why can't there be all kinds of games, for anyone, not just casuals, nongamers or hardcores, but all?[QUOTE="Blackbond"]
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring. Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it our ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.Gamer46
Give me an example of how Nintendo is trying to reach out to gamers? They don't want games like GTA or RE or MGS to exist, they want stuff like Cooking Mama instead. Doesn't seem to me like they're reaching out to gamers. So no they are in fact not trying to appeal to everybody. And again, the games people say on PS2 that were casual are more than hardcore in comparison to what Nintendo is pushing.
What? Give me a link where that was ever said. Hell, there is a RE and Man-hunt comming out for the Wii, and the GC had RE and MGS.
[QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Your also assuming that game developers get into their job for the money. Which is laughable since game developers tend to make next to nothing. Your assuming that everyone will sell-out and that no developer is making games because it's their passion.The world runs on money. What makes you think the gaming industry is any different? If money wasn't a concern why would they make multiplat games? Sure there will be a few developers that will still make games because they have a passion for it. But the majority.........
If developers just wanted to make a quick buck, they would have gotten into insurence.
goblaa
You have absaluotly nothing to base that off of. You're just assuming.
The word is "absolutely". And yes the world does run on money. And the gaming Industry is apart of the world is it not? You also never answered my questions. You never answered why developers make multiplat games. You basically said nu-uh. I'm sorry but you need a reality check.
Developer smake maulti-plats to break even usually. and of course the world runs on money. It always has and always will. Notihng has changed here so I don't see why or how gamming will 'die'. I don't see why game developers making cash off of today's top of the line epic games would simply stop making them. I don't see why people who buy epic hardcore games would stop buying them.
Because there will be very few games like this on the market and the ones that are there will likely not be worth buying. Not hard to get really.
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="Blackbond"]
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring. Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it our ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.goblaa
Give me an example of how Nintendo is trying to reach out to gamers? They don't want games like GTA or RE or MGS to exist, they want stuff like Cooking Mama instead. Doesn't seem to me like they're reaching out to gamers. So no they are in fact not trying to appeal to everybody. And again, the games people say on PS2 that were casual are more than hardcore in comparison to what Nintendo is pushing.
What? Give me a link where that was ever said. Hell, there is a RE and Man-hunt comming out for the Wii, and the GC had RE and MGS.
Miyamoto basically said in his speech he hates games like GTA.
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"]They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.goblaaWrong.
Miyamoto basically confirmed it in his speech and Nintendo has basically been saying it for the past year. Nintendo does not want epic games, they want simple, pick up and play trashy mini-game compilations. They don't want games like GTA to exist, instead they're hope is that everybody plays something like Mario Party.
What confrence were you watching? I hate to break it to you, but those 'trashy' mini games are a blast to play. Some people may not like the same kind of games you do (shocker). The problem is that there is a big market of people for those games and NO ONE was making them for consoles. So the vast majority of the world was pretty much being told by game developers "screw you".
Nintendo is expanding, sure....but you act as if metroid, zelda, and mario will cese to exist. Or that every dev in the world will stop making the games they love.
And there lies the problem. Nintendo may keep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid around, but if you look at their new franchises, it's casual crap, they're not trying to make new epic adventures, instead they're giving us mini-games. Now yes, they can be fun when playing games with friends, but sometimes I like to play single player games as well, and I don't see Nintendo pushing for great RPGs or Adventures. They'll give us the standard fare to keep fanboys happy, but when it comes to original content, don't look for a new platformer. And yes, if the Wii takes off, developers will start avoiding the gamers too in favor of following the dollar. Don't give me this "game developers don't get paid a lot, so they're just in it for what they love" garbage either. Everybody in any industry tries to make as much money as possible. Once the market for stuff like MGS, FF, and Gears of War dries up because the overwhelming majority of people buying games are buying crap like Cooking Mama, you will see much more simplistic games. There is no middle ground. Cooking Mama, Wario Ware and the like can not co-exist with FPS or RPGs.
Why would the millions of people buying games like GeoW simply stop buying those kinds of games?
Because developers will stop making them. Simple logic really.
Wow, you might as just well said "Because I said so".
You're the head of a big company, you make a game like Gears of War, it sells two million copies, you feel great. Then you see a simple game like Nintendogs sell more than double what you're game did and it took less time and money for the competing development house to create this. Which direction are you going to go in next time? It won't happen right away, but over time, the market for the more epic games will dry up.
Are you hoently going to sit there and tell me that Epic or CliffyB will make a game like Nintendogs or warioware?
Not right away, but if the Wii is the most successful console, all developers will change focus and start making more simplistic games to appeal to the Wii's target audience.
[QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"]They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.Gamer46Wrong.
Miyamoto basically confirmed it in his speech and Nintendo has basically been saying it for the past year. Nintendo does not want epic games, they want simple, pick up and play trashy mini-game compilations. They don't want games like GTA to exist, instead they're hope is that everybody plays something like Mario Party.
What confrence were you watching? I hate to break it to you, but those 'trashy' mini games are a blast to play. Some people may not like the same kind of games you do (shocker). The problem is that there is a big market of people for those games and NO ONE was making them for consoles. So the vast majority of the world was pretty much being told by game developers "screw you".
Nintendo is expanding, sure....but you act as if metroid, zelda, and mario will cese to exist. Or that every dev in the world will stop making the games they love.
And there lies the problem. Nintendo may keep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid around, but if you look at their new franchises, it's casual crap, they're not trying to make new epic adventures, instead they're giving us mini-games. Now yes, they can be fun when playing games with friends, but sometimes I like to play single player games as well, and I don't see Nintendo pushing for great RPGs or Adventures. They'll give us the standard fare to keep fanboys happy, but when it comes to original content, don't look for a new platformer. And yes, if the Wii takes off, developers will start avoiding the gamers too in favor of following the dollar. Don't give me this "game developers don't get paid a lot, so they're just in it for what they love" garbage either. Everybody in any industry tries to make as much money as possible. Once the market for stuff like MGS, FF, and Gears of War dries up because the overwhelming majority of people buying games are buying crap like Cooking Mama, you will see much more simplistic games. There is no middle ground. Cooking Mama, Wario Ware and the like can not co-exist with FPS or RPGs.
Why would the millions of people buying games like GeoW simply stop buying those kinds of games?
Because developers will stop making them. Simple logic really.
Wow, you might as just well said "Because I said so".
You're the head of a big company, you make a game like Gears of War, it sells two million copies, you feel great. Then you see a simple game like Nintendogs sell more than double what you're game did and it took less time and money for the competing development house to create this. Which direction are you going to go in next time? It won't happen right away, but over time, the market for the more epic games will dry up.
Are you hoently going to sit there and tell me that Epic or CliffyB will make a game like Nintendogs or warioware?
Not right away, but if the Wii is the most successful console, they will change focus and start making more simplistic games to appeal to the Wii's target audience.
Who feeds you this?
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"]They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.ArisShadowsWrong.
Miyamoto basically confirmed it in his speech and Nintendo has basically been saying it for the past year. Nintendo does not want epic games, they want simple, pick up and play trashy mini-game compilations. They don't want games like GTA to exist, instead they're hope is that everybody plays something like Mario Party.
What confrence were you watching? I hate to break it to you, but those 'trashy' mini games are a blast to play. Some people may not like the same kind of games you do (shocker). The problem is that there is a big market of people for those games and NO ONE was making them for consoles. So the vast majority of the world was pretty much being told by game developers "screw you".
Nintendo is expanding, sure....but you act as if metroid, zelda, and mario will cese to exist. Or that every dev in the world will stop making the games they love.
And there lies the problem. Nintendo may keep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid around, but if you look at their new franchises, it's casual crap, they're not trying to make new epic adventures, instead they're giving us mini-games. Now yes, they can be fun when playing games with friends, but sometimes I like to play single player games as well, and I don't see Nintendo pushing for great RPGs or Adventures. They'll give us the standard fare to keep fanboys happy, but when it comes to original content, don't look for a new platformer. And yes, if the Wii takes off, developers will start avoiding the gamers too in favor of following the dollar. Don't give me this "game developers don't get paid a lot, so they're just in it for what they love" garbage either. Everybody in any industry tries to make as much money as possible. Once the market for stuff like MGS, FF, and Gears of War dries up because the overwhelming majority of people buying games are buying crap like Cooking Mama, you will see much more simplistic games. There is no middle ground. Cooking Mama, Wario Ware and the like can not co-exist with FPS or RPGs.
Why would the millions of people buying games like GeoW simply stop buying those kinds of games?
Because developers will stop making them. Simple logic really.
Wow, you might as just well said "Because I said so".
You're the head of a big company, you make a game like Gears of War, it sells two million copies, you feel great. Then you see a simple game like Nintendogs sell more than double what you're game did and it took less time and money for the competing development house to create this. Which direction are you going to go in next time? It won't happen right away, but over time, the market for the more epic games will dry up.
Are you hoently going to sit there and tell me that Epic or CliffyB will make a game like Nintendogs or warioware?
Not right away, but if the Wii is the most successful console, they will change focus and start making more simplistic games to appeal to the Wii's target audience.
Who feeds you this?
I'm just calling it as I see it. There can be no more middle ground in today's industry, games cost too much. If developers can make a quick buck, that's the way they'll go.
And to clear up any confusion, no I don't see Epic making a game like Nintendogs, but I could see them making a very simple light gun type game or something.
All sides of this argument need to read this post....
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring? Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it are ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
If anybody were to destroy gaming it would be these elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what you are implying. Who are you guys to say that only you guys should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? That's just wrong....You aren't better then them you shouldn't be the only one to have games made for you, there should be games readily available for all ages, demographics, genres, and genders not just for hardcore gamers. The industry "limiting" itself to only catoring to one demographic is far more probable for the death of video gaming rather then the expansion of it through casuals and non-gamers.
[QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Your also assuming that game developers get into their job for the money. Which is laughable since game developers tend to make next to nothing. Your assuming that everyone will sell-out and that no developer is making games because it's their passion.The world runs on money. What makes you think the gaming industry is any different? If money wasn't a concern why would they make multiplat games? Sure there will be a few developers that will still make games because they have a passion for it. But the majority.........
If developers just wanted to make a quick buck, they would have gotten into insurence.
goblaa
You have absaluotly nothing to base that off of. You're just assuming.
The word is "absolutely". And yes the world does run on money. And the gaming Industry is apart of the world is it not? You also never answered my questions. You never answered why developers make multiplat games. You basically said nu-uh. I'm sorry but you need a reality check.
Developer smake maulti-plats to break even usually. and of course the world runs on money. It always has and always will. Notihng has changed here so I don't see why or how gamming will 'die'. I don't see why game developers making cash off of today's top of the line epic games would simply stop making them. I don't see why people who buy epic hardcore games would stop buying them.
If one demographic has a large enough control over the market things will change. And the games being designed will change. Especially if the games are making a even larger profit. The industry is runned by the market. Whoever has control of the market shapes the industry.
All sides of this argument need to read this post....
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring? Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it are ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
If anybody were to destroy gaming it would be these elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what you are implying. Who are you guys to say that only you guys should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? That's just wrong....You aren't better then them you shouldn't be the only one to have games made for you, there should be games readily available for all ages, demographics, genres, and genders not just for hardcore gamers. The industry "limiting" itself to only catoring to one demographic is far more probable for the death of video gaming rather then the expansion of it through casuals and non-gamers.
Blackbond
So hardcore gamers should be avoided, great logic. I don't care if there are games for casuals, or non-gamers, what I do care about is that the games for non-gamers will likely be the focus going forward, which means much less games for people like me who have been gaming for years.
[QUOTE="Blackbond"]
All sides of this argument need to read this post....
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring? Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it are ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
If anybody were to destroy gaming it would be these elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what you are implying. Who are you guys to say that only you guys should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? That's just wrong....You aren't better then them you shouldn't be the only one to have games made for you, there should be games readily available for all ages, demographics, genres, and genders not just for hardcore gamers. The industry "limiting" itself to only catoring to one demographic is far more probable for the death of video gaming rather then the expansion of it through casuals and non-gamers.
Gamer46
So hardcore gamers should be avoided, great logic. I don't care if there are games for casuals, or non-gamers, what I do care about is that the games for non-gamers will likely be the focus going forward, which means much less games for people like me who have been gaming for years.
You obviously didn't read anything did you. I said all people which includes gamers, non-gamers, casuals, and hardcore deserve to have games created for them, not just Hardcore and hardcore only.
All sides of this argument need to read this post....
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring? Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it are ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
If anybody were to destroy gaming it would be these elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what you are implying. Who are you guys to say that only you guys should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? That's just wrong....You aren't better then them you shouldn't be the only one to have games made for you, there should be games readily available for all ages, demographics, genres, and genders not just for hardcore gamers. The industry "limiting" itself to only catoring to one demographic is far more probable for the death of video gaming rather then the expansion of it through casuals and non-gamers.
Blackbond
I agree that any extreme is not good for gaming. redCloudJ7I never implied this. You just lied. By applying your non-cognitive generalization to everyone who opposed your opinion. And it is complete and utter garbage. If you actually read the topic it says if TOO many non-gamer and casual consumers. I recommend actually reading the topic.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
Has this been brought up at all?
I have heard people claim that too many non-gamer and casual consumers can actually harm the industry. By causing more developers to make games that appeal to these groups. Instead of focusing and creating new original properties for the hardcore groups. Causing the majority of developers to focus on the non-gamer and casual consumers. The major franchises (that sell very well) for the hardcore would be intact. However the majority of games would be "dumbed" down making them more accessible to non-gamers and casuals. And developers would neglect the hardcore groups in order a to secure greater profit.
What do think about this?
Is this true?
redCloudJ7
Well thats pretty much how i feel about the subject, i think casuals are harming the industry in a sort of way, but still there are alot of hardcore gamers out there to simply neglect. What i'm afraid of is that non-gamers will out number hardcore gamers and then the developers will start to focus on developing games fr them.
[QUOTE="Blackbond"]
All sides of this argument need to read this post....
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring? Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it are ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
If anybody were to destroy gaming it would be these elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what you are implying. Who are you guys to say that only you guys should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? That's just wrong....You aren't better then them you shouldn't be the only one to have games made for you, there should be games readily available for all ages, demographics, genres, and genders not just for hardcore gamers. The industry "limiting" itself to only catoring to one demographic is far more probable for the death of video gaming rather then the expansion of it through casuals and non-gamers.
redCloudJ7
I agree that any extreme is not good for gaming. redCloudJ7I never implied this. You just lied. By applying your non-cognitive generalization to everyone who opposed your opinion. And it is complete and utter garbage. If you actually read the topic it says if TOO many non-gamer and casual consumers. I recommend actually reading the topic.
Yeah I'm going to have to put a big "?" Mark after your post. I never said you implied anything. How did I lie I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. I'm not generalizing anyone you people who think that casuals and non-gamers destroying the market are generalizing. Everyone who opposed my opinion? I just stated my opinion on like the second to the last page of this thread. Again I am confused as to what you are getting at.
that seems to happen a lot. especially in the music industry. anyways.....In that sense, yes, casuals would be harming the industry. Whenever you sacrifice quality in order to make a profit, you completely betray your niche userbase, which is ultimatley detrimental.
Basinboy
Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
goblaa
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
[QUOTE="goblaa"]Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
Gamer46
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
As much as quick fun games are, devs like to make long, detailed games for hardcores. They won't stop, because thats both their passion and carear in life. The only aim Nintendo is trying to do to allowed a long range of games for everyone, not making it only good for a select group.
what hurts gaming is all the sh###y Movie License games like Batman Begins and The Matrix that sell a billion copies, while games like Beyond Good and Evil rot on the shelf.Nuck81I could agree with that, not saying you getting your golden movie egg once in a while.
Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.I was never talking about one company and everyone else following suit. I was talking about the overall industry being controlled by a demographic. I didn't say devs should ignore non-gamers and casual gamers for hardcore gamers. Not all devs make games out of "passion" or because it appeals to them. People have different motivations. And if making a certain niche of games yeilded practically nothing or pushed a dev into debt they will definitely change or at least try to make a profit to fund their next concept. The market controls the industry.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
goblaa
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
ArisShadows
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
As much as quick fun games are, devs like to make long, detailed games for hardcores. They won't stop, because thats both their passion and carear in life. The only aim Nintendo is trying to do to allowed a long range of games for everyone, not making it only good for a select group.
If that statement wasn't utterly false than how come Nintendo's release list is filled with mini-games and cooking and pet simulations and not games that would appeal to gamers? For every game like Mario Galaxy there are 8-10 mini-game compilations.
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
ArisShadows
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
As much as quick fun games are, devs like to make long, detailed games for hardcores. They won't stop, because thats both their passion and carear in life. The only aim Nintendo is trying to do to allowed a long range of games for everyone, not making it only good for a select group.
And there you have it. What is wrong with a company reaching out to all demographics instead of only just a select few?
[QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
Gamer46
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
As much as quick fun games are, devs like to make long, detailed games for hardcores. They won't stop, because thats both their passion and carear in life. The only aim Nintendo is trying to do to allowed a long range of games for everyone, not making it only good for a select group.
If that statement wasn't utterly false than how come Nintendo's release list is filled with mini-games and cooking and pet simulations and not games that would appeal to gamers? For every game like Mario Galaxy there are 8-10 mini-game compilations.
Metroid Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, Super Smash Brother Brawl, and Super Mario Galaxy. Okay now name me 8-10 mini-games compilations for each of the above games. In fact why don't you name me all of the mini games that are coming out because I am damn curious to know exactly how many of these industry threatening games are coming out to take over and destroy gaming as we know it.
[QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
Gamer46
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
As much as quick fun games are, devs like to make long, detailed games for hardcores. They won't stop, because thats both their passion and carear in life. The only aim Nintendo is trying to do to allowed a long range of games for everyone, not making it only good for a select group.
If that statement wasn't utterly false than how come Nintendo's release list is filled with mini-games and cooking and pet simulations and not games that would appeal to gamers? For every game like Mario Galaxy there are 8-10 mini-game compilations.
I only counted about 3 at the moment; WarioWar, Rayman, Super Monkey Balls? You know when you trying to get a certian demographic, you won't go far trying to say "oh hey we got a single game for you nongamers to play, jump aboard the 250 dollar train". You need to have bit out there to bring them in, which means pumping out games for nongamers and such. But this doesn't mean the stopping of "hardcore" games.
[QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="ArisShadows"][QUOTE="Gamer46"][QUOTE="goblaa"]Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.
I'm a warhammer fan. A few years back gamesworkshop got the rights to Lord of the rings and made a game for it. The games was much much simpler than the two warhammers and their sales exploded. LotR was out selling warhammer by vast amounts with less than half the budjet. Since the profit on lotr was so high, but the cost was so low, the extra money went into warhammer and supporting the company.
Still, every hardcore grizzeled warhammer player became a doomsayer. They preached about GW selling out to make a licensed game would kill warhammer. That LotR was diverting attention away from warhammer. They all acted like warhammer is some how 'more worthy' thant LotR.
So what ended up happening? Nothing. Life went on.
The same thing will happen here. What makes people think that they're preference in gaming is somehow superior to everyone elses? What makes people think that just because many people who never bought GeoW to begin with will somehow kill any game of it's calibur? The people who buy casual games will and never were going to buy a hardcore game. So why would their market affect hardcore games. The hardcore game market is still there.
If casula games take only a month to make (a gross underestimate) and make tons of cash, where do you think the extra money will go? do you really think it will just sit in the company coffers? Or will it get used to fund more ambitous projects? Or maybe it will be used to keep the devs from going belly up as is so common these days.
For two decades there has a been a vast market for casual games. But never has a console game developer made games for them. It's as if the market said "We are not intrested in your games." And the devs replyed, "Well, screw you." Why should devs ignore the casual gamer for the hardcore gamer or vice versa? Why would devs who obviously got into games becasue they enjoy it stop making games that appeal to them?
Blackbond
Once again, if you can make a quick dollar, you do that, period. Eventually people will see games that appeal to non-gamers sell more and therefore start focusing on that, meaning less and less games for gamers (hardcore or otherwise) will be released. The quality of those games will drop and so will sales over time, meaning the market for these games will essentially dry up. This is what Nintendo seems to be aiming for.
As much as quick fun games are, devs like to make long, detailed games for hardcores. They won't stop, because thats both their passion and carear in life. The only aim Nintendo is trying to do to allowed a long range of games for everyone, not making it only good for a select group.
If that statement wasn't utterly false than how come Nintendo's release list is filled with mini-games and cooking and pet simulations and not games that would appeal to gamers? For every game like Mario Galaxy there are 8-10 mini-game compilations.
Metroid Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, Super Smash Brother Brawl, and Super Mario Galaxy. Okay now name me 8-10 mini-games compilations for each of the above games. In fact why don't you name me all of the mini games that are coming out because I am damn curious to know exactly how many of these industry threatening games are coming out to take over and destroy gaming as we know it.
WarioWare Rayman Raving Rabbitz Super Monkey Balls (the 3rd of it branch) Mario Party (Like they weren't going to make this)
Unfortunately yes... it's what essentially happened to the PC platform a while ago. The problem of continuing to create games for experienced gamers, while still having a path of entry for inexperienced gamers was huge. Rapid advances in graphics hardware then split the market. A combination of factors has left PC gaming essentially harshly divided between hardcore gamer and casual. The hardcore gamers have now been pushing the hardware market, unfortunately internet piracy has now made it so developers struggle to make money on hardcore games made exclusively for the PC - we're starting to see a flight of previously PC-confined titles to consoles intact - aka Quake 4, Battlefield 2142, Fear, Quake Wars, Crysis, Half-Life Episode 2, Portal, Bioshock, Crysis, et cetera... Casuals are bad for the market in a lot of ways because they buy up bad games. Inexperienced gamers, non-gamers, whatever - they tend to buy into games because it's something new. What unfortunately happens is that the producers of games now are reading in the market "hardcore gamers don't buy games until they're proven good- casuals will buy a bad game with a good ad" - then they wind up not polishing the game, simplifying the story, et cetera. For example, Jaws Unleashed (or whatever it's called) last year was a terrible game that sold well. Why? People wanted to play as the shark. "Cool - you can play as the shark!" Was it a gad awful game? Yes! Did it get terrible reviews? Yes! Did it take dollars from the market that, if everyone were hardcore instead of casual, would have gone to games like Okami? Certainly did - but that's the market that's being created. On consoles the market is a bit more correcting though - when you have 100 million people buying a PS2, niche games can sell because at that point you have to target a niche just to sell - your game is one of two hundred published in a month you'll do something to find an audience.Has this been brought up at all?
I have heard people claim that too many non-gamer and casual consumers can actually harm the industry. By causing more developers to make games that appeal to these groups. Instead of focusing and creating new original properties for the hardcore groups. Causing the majority of developers to focus on the non-gamer and casual consumers. The major franchises (that sell very well) for the hardcore would be intact. However the majority of games would be "dumbed" down making them more accessible to non-gamers and casuals. And developers would neglect the hardcore groups in order a to secure greater profit.
What do think about this?
Is this true?
redCloudJ7
[QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="Blackbond"]
All sides of this argument need to read this post....
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring? Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it are ridiculous and scared.
You are so scared that the Wii will win. What you fail to realize is that even if Wii wins that doesn't mean that Playstation and Xbox will cease to exist. Nintendo 64 and Gamecube didn't win yet Nintendo is still around. There will always be a place for all gamers in the industry period. I mean were people crying when Sony casualized the market? No, so shut up and get over it nobody is going to destroy gaming.
If anybody were to destroy gaming it would be these elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what you are implying. Who are you guys to say that only you guys should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? That's just wrong....You aren't better then them you shouldn't be the only one to have games made for you, there should be games readily available for all ages, demographics, genres, and genders not just for hardcore gamers. The industry "limiting" itself to only catoring to one demographic is far more probable for the death of video gaming rather then the expansion of it through casuals and non-gamers.
Blackbond
I agree that any extreme is not good for gaming. redCloudJ7I never implied this. You just lied. By applying your non-cognitive generalization to everyone who opposed your opinion. And it is complete and utter garbage. If you actually read the topic it says if TOO many non-gamer and casual consumers. I recommend actually reading the topic.
Yeah I'm going to have to put a big "?" Mark after your post. I never said you implied anything. How did I lie I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. I'm not generalizing anyone you people who think that casuals and non-gamers destroying the market are generalizing. Everyone who opposed my opinion? I just stated my opinion on like the second to the last page of this thread. Again I am confused as to what you are getting at.
It was a generalization. Hence you used the word "THESE elitist that think that non-gamers and casuals shouldn't be allowed to game. That is basically what YOU are IMPLYING. Who are YOU GUYS to say that only YOU GUYS should be able to enjoy games and that casuals and non-gamers shouldn't have games made for them also? You never specified who you talking to. It was plural. And it was a generilization. And you just lied by saying it was not a generalization. "Again I am confused as to what you are getting at." That's why you should actually READ the topic. It was about if TOO many non-gamers and casuals consumers controlled the market. What does the zero in your sig stand for? Zero reading comprehension.
Uh, Casuals are a much more vast market than so called "hardcore gamers". $$$ makes the world go round.Cpt_MehDoes that change the fact that tons of casuals don't have any comparison to see whether a game is good or not and buy accordingly, encouraging publishers to put out crap that satisfies their ignorant idea of "quality"?
I'm sure most game company's have some kind of quality control and would not allow hordes of crap to be released.Random__GuyActivision, EA, Ubisoft...coincidentally among the biggest companies on the market are all guilty of releasing "hordes of crap" as you put it. From experience I just can't be as optimistic about them as you are.
They are harming gaming, especially the non-gamers. If the Wii continues it's current run of success games like Cooking Mama, and Nintendogs become the main focus of developers, killing off stuff like MGS, God of War, FF, GTA, RE, etc. It's said, but this is where Nintendo wants to take the market.Gamer46Exactly, when Miyamoto says that his measure of success is the "wife-meter" we have a serious problem. We've already seen so many cash-outs do huge sales (50 Cent: Bulletproof, Madden, all sorts of licensed movie-crap) and Nintendo wants to take the industry further down that path in the name of inclusion and their bottom-line as they aren't successful anymore within the traditional mold. [QUOTE="ArisShadows"] Wrong. Right, what worthwhile, SHMUPs, Fighters, FPSes, non-Mario-kartesque Racing, and non-rehashed RPGs are there on the DS? Take a moment to answer that for me. The biggest games on the system are casual crap...Nintendogs, Brainage, Pokemon.
Because they tell developers and publishers that games should not be deep and/or lengthy for them to profit. What third-party is actually very successful on the DS that makes deep games? Square, Capcom, Konami, Namco...thats about it.
Can you tell us why? Or are they just not good for YOU because you too much of a coolguy?
goblaa
Metroid no longer exists so far as I'm concerned (Prime does not compare to Super Metroid), the latest Zelda is essentially the same game as has been released for the last 20 years (Zelda II & Windwaker not-withstanding), and Mario has increasingly become a cashout character to slap into whatever game needs a player character. Where is Pikmin? Gone, where is Rare? Sold off. Where is Nintendo development headed to? Nintendogs, Pokemon cashouts, Cooking Mama, Warioware, and Brainage. [QUOTE="ArisShadows"] Yes, you like opimion always equal fact. Oh because I like RE or FF so much that someone can have an "awesome experience" with a game like Nintendogs. Nintendogs is Tamagochi on the Gameboy re-envisioned..Brainage is the Edutainment titles of the 90s revised. These games were rightfully destroyed by critics and the sales chart when they came out, since then Nintendo has increasingly pandered towards the non-gamer demographic to such a degree that these very same ideas are smashing successes.
Nintendo is expanding, sure....but you act as if metroid, zelda, and mario will cese to exist. Or that every dev in the world will stop making the games they love.
goblaa
BECAUSE THEY LOSE MONEY. If FPSes, traditional racers, SHMUPS, 2D Fighters, traditional JRPGs, and other genres that exist today become SO UNPROFITABLE that they are actually losing money they won't be made. What happened to Demon's Crest? By all accounts it was a great game that should have had a sequel but it received negative sales and we haven't seen Firebrand outside of GnG (which has only received one, likewise poorly selling game) since.
But how is that any diffirent hen the way things have been for the last 10 years? more people play the sims, 50cent bullet proof, true crimes and other crap like that. Still, whay stop making epic games that sell millions of copies?
goblaa
Its not ridiculous to think that, even with you moaning that Playstation casualized the market it had tons of the deepest original experiences around..Wii has no indication of following in that path. Wing Island was the closest thing to a traditional SHMUP and it is crap, SSBM is going to be another edition to an (admittedly fun) party-fighter. What is there within the traditional gaming mold on the system worth playing? Take a moment to answer me that. Even Dragon Quest Swords is simplified for the casual market.
Nintendo doesn't care about gamers yet it is targeting more demographics then the PS3 and the 360. If the Wii appeals to more people then how is it not caring. Its trying to reach out to everyone. You guys that complain about how Wii will destroy gaming by casualizing it our ridiculous and scared.
Blackbond
Because they would become disgusted by the direction of the market and go elsewhere. Thats what happened to Atari and it can happen again. One deciding factor for me to buy PSP over DS was the decided lack of many games that looked deep and traditional on the system aside from old S-E RPGs. If Wii wins I guarantee you I'm going full retro-gamer.
Developer smake maulti-plats to break even usually. and of course the world runs on money. It always has and always will. Notihng has changed here so I don't see why or how gamming will 'die'. I don't see why game developers making cash off of today's top of the line epic games would simply stop making them. I don't see why people who buy epic hardcore games would stop buying them.
goblaa
Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me they would develop such a game for the Wii? No, they would develop it exclusively for PC if the other consoles fared poorly against it. Wii is all about simplified experiences that can appeal to casuals and non-gamers. You see it in the control method, the lineup, the console interface, the talking points of the company itself. [QUOTE="ArisShadows"] Look at Oblivion, they dumbed it down since Morrowind and such, and thats PC and 360. PC has quite load of casual stuff. One quick example is Diner Dashers. You act like all of a sudden bam, all game with be dumbed down and blah blah. Whether or not casuals are larger, hardcores still give a good percent of cash into pockets. Why can't there be all kinds of games, for anyone, not just casuals, nongamers or hardcores, but all? PC developers often operate on much lower budgets than console devs (yes, even Wii devs) and the number of people who own PCs absolutely eclipses the number who own consoles. Console gaming is non-existant in many smaller European countries, its smaller than PC gaming in numerous Asian countries, tons more people own PCs in North America than consoles (piracy is about the way people play console-gaming in Brazil). PC developers can AFFORD to pander to a very niche audience, console devs don't have that luxury.
Are you hoently going to sit there and tell me that Epic or CliffyB will make a game like Nintendogs or warioware?
goblaa
Well, this is getting kinda silly and I'm sleepy. People here are acting as if the only game of value is one that takes lot of work and tells a story. People act as if non-gamers are going to breaking to hardcore gamer's houses at night and kill them. Why do people think that because one company is expanding into the casual market (expanding, not replacing) that all companies must follow suit? It's all silly really.Yes they would in fact replace hardcore gamers. People buy based upon numerous things and one of those is their personal tastes, if they feel those aren't being served as I feel towards the DS they will go elsewhere or just leave the market entirely. Its that simple. Where do you think the innovation in one of the most influential old genres, SHMUPs is going on? Not on consoles..I guarantee you that. No SHMUP has done well since Ikaruga and even it just did okay. All the innovation is taking part on PC. Its not absurd to think that if the market shifts drastically the fanbase for the old standard will dry up and those types of games will essentially go extinct, it has happened before and it can most certainly happen again.
goblaa
I don't see casuals as a directly harmful force in gaming. Casuals become hardcore given time, the core franchises will continue to sell well enough for devs to make them. No reason to fear.MetrovaniaCasuals become hardcore if the environment is correct, if all they know are casual games they will never become hardcore.
Err isn't gaming supposed to be a casual thing in the first place? "Hardcore" gamers are the ones that make XBL matches from a fun multiplayer game into a trash-talk slogging fest....not to mention that casual gamers are the ones who need to ask "spawn camping? stat boosting? what's that?" so yeah I'd say its the other way round.RebornInFlamesNo...gaming from its inception has been a competitive activity. You've got it ***-backwards there. The wholes who do the trash-talking aren't hardcore, they are casuals who want to sound hardcore. The truly hardcore are confident enough in their skills to not talk trash throughout those kinds of things. Your second point supports the idea that casuals harm gaming. Do you have any idea how darn annoying it is for people to always come up to you or whisper to you online all these questions that anybody should know? Its detrimental to the gaming experience.
Question: Do you play MMOs at all? If yes, which do you enjoy more A) walking around in public areas and dealing with ignoramuses who have no business playing and often are there just to be pains of ***** themselves out for ingame money or B) Playing with your group of friends/guild and beating out other competitive groups of a near-equal skill level. Somehow I doubt your answer is A.
And there you have it. What is wrong with a company reaching out to all demographics instead of only just a select few?Blackbond
No
its threads like these that are harming gaming
midnite_toker22
Just explain how that could be.
You are probably a Nintendo fan, but don't come telling that brain training is the future of gaming.
It won't last anyway, casual gamers will get the Wii (which is why this console was profitable since day one: uncle Raggie knows much better than you think) and a bunch of games... but I don't think it's going to last more than a year from now.
Exactly, when Miyamoto says that his measure of success is the "wife-meter" we have a serious problem. We've already seen so many cash-outs do huge sales (50 Cent: Bulletproof, Madden, all sorts of licensed movie-crap) and Nintendo wants to take the industry further down that path in the name of inclusion and their bottom-line as they aren't successful anymore within the traditional mold. [JRPGs, and other genres that exist today become SO UNPROFITABLE that they are actually losing money they won't be made. What happened to Demon's Crest? By all accounts it was a great game that should have had a sequel but it received negative sales and we haven't seen Firebrand outside of GnG (which has only received one, likewise poorly selling game) since.Runningflame570
I find this very wrong!!! Miyamoto bought in the Wife-O-Meter to show how non-gamers can become gamers themselves by taking small steps!!! Miyamoto doesn't want the industry to move towards making GTA rip-offs, floods of FPS, and lots of casual sports titles!!! Instead he wanted convert non-gamers to tryout all kinds of games and so that is the creation of games like Nintendogs and Brain Age. Once his wife got into Wii Sports, she started to get into games herself when she got familiar with the control she will be familiar playing something more hardcore like Zelda:TP!!! Thats something Miyamoto wants to do.
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