PC has Piracy, Consoles have piracy, and used game market

No one talks about it because the whole thing is insignificant. Developers and publishers are talking about PC piracy because sales are suffering and the volume of pirated games are growing. Epic said there were 40 million attempts to play UT with a pirated key. They are about 500 people usually playing that game.
Deihmos

$1 billion is insignificant? really?

the volume of the used game market is growing too, just wait untill the console devs start complaining.

why do you think the consoles are so much now?

why do you think the games are so much now?

they uped the price to get the profit back

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]

Its going to be a **** storm when DD does become the norm though - If I remember correctly Penny Arcade did a comic on GameSpots practices v DD.

shadow_hosi

dont the companies still make profit from DD?

[QUOTE="Deihmos"]No one talks about it because the whole thing is insignificant. Developers and publishers are talking about PC piracy because sales are suffering and the volume of pirated games are growing. Epic said there were 40 million attempts to play UT with a pirated key. They are about 500 people usually playing that game.
shadow_hosi

$1 billion is insignificant? really?

the volume of the used game market is growing too, just wait untill the console devs start complaining.

why do you think the consoles are so much now?

why do you think the games are so much now?

they uped the price to get the profit back

So you are saying if I don't want the game anymore I shouldn't be able to sell it on Gamestop or even on eBay because i am costing the industry? I will never sell another used item ever again because of this.

It doesn't matter if theres' used copies of new games the same day it releases, those were still legit copies that someone did buy.KingCotton462

Or someone who trades in 3 games to buy a new copy of 1 game. ect. ect. ect.

Its not the people that is the problem. People selling used games over ebay is a tiny percentage.

Its the way these retailers go about it.

Its going to be a **** storm when DD does become the norm though - If I remember correctly Penny Arcade did a comic on GameSpots practices v DD.

skrat_01

Are u just saying retailers should stop buying and selling games? If so I agree because they will buy a game for 24bucks and sell it for 55. How bout I just sell my game directly to somone for 40 bucks then we both win. Its worth it to pay for p2p in this case:P.

Maybe they should just host actutions at there own store. They can make profit by charging a small entry fee each time u enter in a game and giving the option for buying more future spots for less. Like $5 bucks per game or $15 for 5 games and only $3 for addition games until say 10. But if u say sell three games and buy 5 spots u can use those spots later.

[QUOTE="KingCotton462"]It doesn't matter if theres' used copies of new games the same day it releases, those were still legit copies that someone did buy.skrat_01

Or someone who trades in 3 games to buy a new copy of 1 game. ect. ect. ect.

Its much better than an unlimited amout of copies floating around on the internet.

Maybe we should ban people selling anything used. i shouldn't be able to sell my preowened DVDs. i think eBay needs to be shutdown or we should ban anything used from being sold. :? Deihmos

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]

[QUOTE="KingCotton462"]It doesn't matter if theres' used copies of new games the same day it releases, those were still legit copies that someone did buy.KingCotton462

Or someone who trades in 3 games to buy a new copy of 1 game. ect. ect. ect.

Its much better than an unlimited amout of copies floating around on the internet.

[QUOTE="Deihmos"]Maybe we should ban people selling anything used. i shouldn't be able to sell my preowened DVDs. i think eBay needs to be shutdown or we should ban anything used from being sold. :? foxhound_fox

I would rather pay full price than saving $5.00 on a used copy. They are not always in the best condition either. the used games catalog for new games are always very small.

This is a stupid thread.

Piracy is stealing because the merchandise was never purchased from its original owner so ownership rights were never transfered to the Pirate.

A used game was purchased from its original owner therefore the ownership was transfered to the buyer giving that person the ownership and the right to resell it if that person wants to. In case you didn't notice ownership is being passed to the next buyer each time there is a sale. Sure it hurts purchases of new games but the new owner has rights also. It works just like the auto industry. Buy a new car and ownership is transfered to you giving you the right to resell it anytime you want.

This is a stupid thread.

Piracy is stealing because the merchandise was never purchased from its original owner so ownership rights were never transfered to the Pirate.

A used game was purchased from its original owner therefore the ownership was transfered to the buyer giving that person the ownership and the right to resell it if that person wants to. In case you didn't notice ownership is being passed to the next buyer each time there is a sale. Sure it hurts purchases of new games but the new owner has rights also. It works just like the auto industry. Buy a new car and ownership is transfered to you giving you the right to resell it anytime you want.

EG101

I agree with everything you just said. Selling used items has existed forever.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]

Its not the people that is the problem. People selling used games over ebay is a tiny percentage.

Its the way these retailers go about it.

Its going to be a **** storm when DD does become the norm though - If I remember correctly Penny Arcade did a comic on GameSpots practices v DD.

the1stfandb

Are u just saying retailers should stop buying and selling games? If so I agree because they will buy a game for 24bucks and sell it for 55. How bout I just sell my game directly to somone for 40 bucks then we both win. Its worth it to pay for p2p in this case:P.

Maybe they should just host actutions at there own store. They can make profit by charging a small entry fee each time u enter in a game and giving the option for buying more future spots for less. Like $5 bucks per game or $15 for 5 games and only $3 for addition games until say 10. But if u say sell three games and buy 5 spots u can use those spots later.

As for in store auctions, it would be a great idea, but I could see it going the way of Ebay, where there are barstards who try to exploit the system and rob you, and I guess retailers already want to stick to their current max profit system.

However there are independant game stores that do have a great buisness model. One in particular, that is fairly local (named Dungeon Crawl) has a fully fleged Ebay store (that is very well priced), and sells at retail - at much cheaper prices than franchise stores e.g. EB. The store is practically running two shop fronts off one set of stock - brilliant idea (not to mention the store itself is great, and the range is the most extensive i have ever seen - PC wise).

! billion a year in north america alone...... Console kids are killing there own industry..... the shame the shame

In the first of a weekly opinion column Next-Gen.Biz editor-in-chief Colin Campbell takes a look at the trade that's costing this business over $1 billion a year.

Last week GameStop announced Holiday sales up 45%. Games retailers en masse are whoopin' it up, selling heaps of games. Which is wonderful for them, because, due to the lucrative used-games business they get to sell those little boxes of joy all over again.

The silent fury of publishers toward their retail "partners" is a palpable force in game industry politics. Retailers such as GameStop, with its powerful network of 5,000 frontline stores, are coining up to $1 billion a year in used game revenues in North America alone. Add Europe and you've got to think about almost doubling that number.

Publishers don't see a dime, nor even a eurocent of the money.

And they're not happy. Especially because there isn't a darned thing they can do. Both the law and the balance of power within the game industry presently favor the sell-it-again retailers.

[QUOTE="EG101"]

This is a stupid thread.

Piracy is stealing because the merchandise was never purchased from its original owner so ownership rights were never transfered to the Pirate.

A used game was purchased from its original owner therefore the ownership was transfered to the buyer giving that person the ownership and the right to resell it if that person wants to. In case you didn't notice ownership is being passed to the next buyer each time there is a sale. Sure it hurts purchases of new games but the new owner has rights also. It works just like the auto industry. Buy a new car and ownership is transfered to you giving you the right to resell it anytime you want.

Deihmos

I agree with everything you just said. Selling used items has existed forever.

I agree....Piracy and used game aren't even close to being the same thing....I guess I'm hurting the lawnmower business when I sold my used lawnmower last week.....jeez

I would rather pay full price than saving $5.00 on a used copy. They are not always in the best condition either. the used games catalog for new games are always very small.Deihmos

Used pre-owned games killing the industry!!!

Is GameStop killing the video game industry?

January 15, 2008

The other day I ran into an article on next-gen.biz titled: EDITOR'S VIEW: Used Games are Damaging. This article was also linked to via Kotaku with much commenting. The premise of the article is that a game store that sells used game is killing the industry by depriving the developer of sales. There are numerous problems with this premise and I will endeavor to point them out in the following article.

I agree....Piracy and used game aren't even close to being the same thing....I guess I'm hurting the lawnmower business when I sold my used lawnmower last week.....jeez

robflores370

This is a stupid thread.

Piracy is stealing because the merchandise was never purchased from its original owner so ownership rights were never transfered to the Pirate.

A used game was purchased from its original owner therefore the ownership was transfered to the buyer giving that person the ownership and the right to resell it if that person wants to. In case you didn't notice ownership is being passed to the next buyer each time there is a sale. Sure it hurts purchases of new games but the new owner has rights also. It works just like the auto industry. Buy a new car and ownership is transfered to you giving you the right to resell it anytime you want.

EG101

[QUOTE="robflores370"]

I agree....Piracy and used game aren't even close to being the same thing....I guess I'm hurting the lawnmower business when I sold my used lawnmower last week.....jeez

skrat_01

lawnmowers was an extreme example....I play guitar...let's talk guitars then....Guitar Center sell both used and new guitars and also has trade ins and are a national chain....OMG!!....the guitar business is going down the tubes!!! Not even close sorry

lawnmowers was an extreme example....I play guitar...let's talk guitars then....Guitar Center sell both used and new guitars and also has trade ins and are a national chain....OMG!!....the guitar business is going down the tubes!!! Not even close sorryrobflores370

[QUOTE="robflores370"]lawnmowers was an extreme example....I play guitar...let's talk guitars then....Guitar Center sell both used and new guitars and also has trade ins and are a national chain....OMG!!....the guitar business is going down the tubes!!! Not even close sorryfoxhound_fox

not necessarily....there are many chinese made replicas, and knockoffs that people sell on ebay etc...and brings some prices down....its just one example...you can go on and on like appliances, cds, dvds, used books, used magazines, used guns, used stereos, used computers, used comics etc. etc. etc.......

[QUOTE="Deihmos"]I would rather pay full price than saving $5.00 on a used copy. They are not always in the best condition either. the used games catalog for new games are always very small.foxhound_fox

AFAIK console video games sales continues to increase. From What I read GTA did a few million in the first week and many other developers are rolling in cash like Activision, Ubisoft, EA, Epic, Microsoft etc. None have come out crying about used games hurting their sales while crytek, EA, Epic etc have something to say about PC piracy.

As for the rise of the used game market, its a good reasoning. Spending $54.99 on a used copy of a new game is a ripoff, i'll admit that. The fact is also that someone did but the game new before, so the Developers/Publishers did make a sale.

Taking a quick look at GameStop:

New: $59.99

Used: $29.99

New: $59.99

Used: $49.99

Which versions of these games would I rather buy? Same exact game with minor scratches, at a noticeably better value.

I used to be aganist buying games used, but I have had it with the Current-Gen. $100 bucks these days can't even get a gamer two new-release games, im not putting up with that. If developers want to start seeing people like me buying new games, they better start dropping the New-Releases to $50 like they had been for the past decade before they really start feeling the pain.

OK, so let me get this straight, the video game market is breaking records in sales and profits, and you're trying to tell me they are hurting, because of used games sales. First off, you can't tell people they can't sell something they own. It's like saying that the car manufacturers are hurting because of used car sales, or that the housing market suffers because because people buy and sell used houses instead of always buying new ones. It is impractical and impossible to prevent people from buying and selling used things. Now, houses and cars are more expensive than video games but a video game is a huge purchase for some people, so buying used may be the only way they can play.

It is a little different for software on the pc. Because it is so easy to transfer and copy software, the software needs codes linked to individuals to prevent the illegal transfer and use. But since games run off the disks, and you have to have the disks to play them, they don't need that heavy protection. The important thing is that a used game is bought from the publishers, they make their money on that copy, they don't care what happens to it afterwards. And the used game market will never overshadow the new games market, because in order to have used games, you have to sell new games, so if everyone only bought used games, there wouldn't be any around, and they would have to buy new copies of games to play them.

Besides if a game is not good enough for someone to hang onto, the publisher doesn't deserve support anyway.

Use your brain please:

PC Piracy - 1 person can put it on the net so thousands can download it

USed game market -1 guy has to buy it, and sells it, and someone else buys it. When a brand new game is launched, they wont be second hand copies of the game. You wont find a 2nd hand GTA IV copy in CEX or game station guaranteed

Console Piracy - Not every console can be modded to play copied game. Ps3 cant be modded, 360 can be modded, but at a price (RROD risk, Xbox Live Ban), and wii...well... Ninty are soo behind in technology that its just laughable that they dont do anything about it.

Gamestop turned a profit of 7 billion last year. Only 10% of that profit comes from the sale of new games. Over 50% of that profit is from the purchase of used games.

Anyone that doesn't think used games hurts the industry you must not have read anything by developers or publishers in the last 10 years when they complain about used game sales.

There are some people that never buy a game new and that is taking money away from the publisher/developer.

Used games hurt the industry and I don't see how some people can't see that.

Lets say a company sells 200,000 copies of a game new at $49.99. Another 200,000 copies are sold as a used game. The company won't see a penny from those other 200,000 other people.

People ignore the fact that the majority of the market which is casual does not have to have a game right away to enjoy it. There are tons of people out there that are convinced to just buy used games and a lot of that has to do with Gamestop selling discount cards for used games and encouraging customers to buy used.

When I buy an uncertified used car, I hurt the automobile industry. It would be better for the industry if I just stole that car.

Flawless logic.

[QUOTE="shadow_hosi"]

All systems are hurt by people getting games in these ways.

and the used game market does a hell of alot more damage than piracy, imagine, if everyone that buys games at EB games, went out and got the retail version(new), the companies lose far more money to that than PC market does to piracy

robflores370

link?

here is your link

imho the used games market is a completly different kettle of fish to piracy.

piracy=bad. no ifs or buts here. ure getting something for nothing and are not entitled to it.

but the second hand market is more a demonstration of the industry just dragging its heels imho. the movie industry has fully embraced renting and has no problems with ppl selling their stuff on (because thats what it is...ure stuff. they own the content but the licence is yours, as are the discs. ure perfectly entitled to sell that on). the games industry, meanwhile, has done nothing to make a deal with retail about second hand games. we know theres a massive demand for them and we know ppl are happy with second hand games. but this industry has completly failed to take a slice of that pie.

the second hand market and renting are under the same roof. if i rent something...im not a pirate. if i buy a second hand game...im no pirate either. i have paid good money for the product. if publishers are too sloppy to have provisions in place to support and benefit from the second hand market and renting then thats their problem.

Give me the extra $10 - $30, and i'll happily spend the extra money towards a new copy of a game rather than a used one.

Paying $65 after tax for a new release, plus money for microtransactions, is outrageous to me, and will not stand for that garbage. The companies can continue to suffer from the used game market until they get the sense to drop the price of their games and include those downloads that used to be considered "bonus content" back in the Mega-PlayStation days, I don't care.

Gamestop turned a profit of 7 billion last year. Only 10% of that profit comes from the sale of new games. Over 50% of that profit is from the purchase of used games.

Anyone that doesn't think used games hurts the industry you must not have read anything by developers or publishers in the last 10 years when they complain about used game sales.

There are some people that never buy a game new and that is taking money away from the publisher/developer.

Used games hurt the industry and I don't see how some people can't see that.

Lets say a company sells 200,000 copies of a game new at $49.99. Another 200,000 copies are sold as a used game. The company won't see a penny from those other 200,000 other people.

People ignore the fact that the majority of the market which is casual does not have to have a game right away to enjoy it. There are tons of people out there that are convinced to just buy used games and a lot of that has to do with Gamestop selling discount cards for used games and encouraging customers to buy used.

CajunShooter

Do you have a link? I find it very hard to believe gamestop made 7 billion in profits. What is the difference if I sell that same game on eBay? Gamespot makes money on it because the credit is low and they sell it for a lot more. It's the customer's choice and used games has existed since the Atari.

according to this the profit is 288 million in 2007 - 2008. 7 billion in sales does not equal profit.

[QUOTE="CajunShooter"]

Gamestop turned a profit of 7 billion last year. Only 10% of that profit comes from the sale of new games. Over 50% of that profit is from the purchase of used games.

Anyone that doesn't think used games hurts the industry you must not have read anything by developers or publishers in the last 10 years when they complain about used game sales.

There are some people that never buy a game new and that is taking money away from the publisher/developer.

Used games hurt the industry and I don't see how some people can't see that.

Lets say a company sells 200,000 copies of a game new at $49.99. Another 200,000 copies are sold as a used game. The company won't see a penny from those other 200,000 other people.

People ignore the fact that the majority of the market which is casual does not have to have a game right away to enjoy it. There are tons of people out there that are convinced to just buy used games and a lot of that has to do with Gamestop selling discount cards for used games and encouraging customers to buy used.

Deihmos

Do you have a link? I find it very hard to believe gamestop made 7 billion. They give you $5.00 for a used game and sell it for a lot more and with the store credit you buy another game. What is the difference if I sell that same game on eBay?

according to this the profit is 288 million in 2007. 7 billion in sales don't equal profit.

My bad i didn't mean a 7 billion profit, but a 7 billion revenue.

"Resident numbers guy Matt Matthews digs deeper to find out exactly how much GameStop is making from the used games business. Short answer? Piles...."

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8697&Itemid=2

" This looks great for new software (the orange bar): it's the biggest segment and it has grown by 384% in these five years. On the other hand, used products (which I figure is mostly software) is usually the second largest segment and has grown by 444%. Note that discrepancy – 384% compared to 444% – which says that the used product segment has grown faster than the new software segment."

"Put it this way: For every 100 games that GameStop sells, 47 of them will be new games and 53 of them will be used games."

Yeah I can't see how that is hurting the industry :roll:

AFAIK console video games sales continues to increase. From What I read GTA did a few million in the first week and many other developers are rolling in cash like Activision, Ubisoft, EA, Epic, Microsoft etc. None have come out crying about used games hurting their sales while crytek, EA, Epic etc have something to say about PC piracy. Deihmos

[QUOTE="Deihmos"]AFAIK console video games sales continues to increase. From What I read GTA did a few million in the first week and many other developers are rolling in cash like Activision, Ubisoft, EA, Epic, Microsoft etc. None have come out crying about used games hurting their sales while crytek, EA, Epic etc have something to say about PC piracy. foxhound_fox

You can't stop PC piracy because the platform is too open. Whatever method they employ pirates will find a way around it. Steam seems to be the only method that works but to force everyone to use it and stop selling games through retail would be terrible. Maybe they should do like the MPAA and go after these sites. I see one site that was once popular got shutdown and fined 110 million. It's no surprise that these sites are among the most visited sites on the internet. Maybe they should try getting a cut of the revenue.

And no one comments on renting games.

Piracy is worse than used games. In used games, someone bought the game, and then its ownership trades hands among a few people over the years. Piracy, one person buys the game and places an ISO on the internet. Now hundreds of people can play the same game at the price of one purchase.

Basically, used games share the price of one game among 5 to 10 people while piracy shares that price by 30 to 100 for 1. And think about renting, about 10 games swap hands every week. Does the rental company have to pay the publishers? It does not matter because the publisher may not know.

Now if you were a pirate, you are saving $50, now $60, per game downloaded. In a year of downloading 20 games, you saved $1000 to $1200. That is enough to keep your computer upgraded to the high standards every year.

Overall, I blame the gaming companies on piracy. If a game like Halo 3, GTA IV, or Crysis started out at $35 a game, would you take the time to download a pirated copy, work around the copy protection, and spend time working againt malicious programs over going to the store and buying the game? When it can come down to over $1000, I am very tempted, but I don't because it hurts the companies.

All systems are hurt by people getting games in these ways.

and the used game market does a hell of alot more damage than piracy, imagine, if everyone that buys games at EB games, went out and got the retail version(new), the companies lose far more money to that than PC market does to piracy

shadow_hosi

Somone bought that game at full price and then sold it back to Eb or traded it in for another game. The publisher already got their money from the first sell so how are they losing money? Also most people aren't going to buy a used game for $5 less then they can get a new one for. Piracy the game publisher doesn't get any money not one cent.

All systems are hurt by people getting games in these ways.

and the used game market does a hell of alot more damage than piracy, imagine, if everyone that buys games at EB games, went out and got the retail version(new), the companies lose far more money to that than PC market does to piracy

shadow_hosi

I don't know how you can say that and think you are anywhere close to right. Look at Grand Theft Auto IV vs Crysis for an example. GTA IV was available to pirate for 360 users. The game still sold 500 million dollars in the first week alone! (60% of that being 360 versions). Now look at Crysis, Crysis has not even been able to sell 1 million copies since the time it was out. The reason for this is simply because of piracy on PCs.

Now as for used games sales, if you look at the way Gamestop works they give you store credit for your used games. With that credit yo purchase other new or used games. Its not like everyone is going to Gamestop and buying used copies of GTA IV because the game needs to sell in the first place before it ends up on gamestop shelves. On top of that as I mentioned the money just cycles right back into gaming with the store credit you obtain for trading your used games.

Look at movies, do rentals hurt movie sales? No piracy does, and there is no use trying to downplay how bad PC piracy is. It is killing PC gaming and hurting developer studios who once only made games for PC are walking away cause they just can't make any money.

Don't downplay the facts please, piracy is wrong and must stop.

[QUOTE="hellhund"]I think people underestimate the used games market. I've had a PS2 for years and never bought a "new" game. It was always a used or second-hand "new" game from half.com.skrat_01

Its just the same as piracy, and just as bad

Not a cent is going to the publisher or developer.

Used sales technically rob them of any profit.

Each time you buy a used game they lose a sale.

Not true. Somebody else already bought the game and gave money to the publisher. There is no guarantee that the person who bought the used game would buy a new one.

Overall, I blame the gaming companies on piracy. If a game like Halo 3, GTA IV, or Crysis started out at $35 a game, would you take the time to download a pirated copy, work around the copy protection, and spend time working againt malicious programs over going to the store and buying the game? When it can come down to over $1000, I am very tempted, but I don't because it hurts the companies.

I don't think that is entirely the case, yes games cost quite a bit, but to a pirater free is free and that's the bottom line:(

The Used Games Market is nothing like piracy. :| If it was even remotely close it would be stopped in the great bastion of capitalism; the west.

The fact is buying a used game adds to the economy and GDP of a nation. It is a fair and legal transaction. Not only this but it also upholds the legal matter of "property ownership", you "own" the physical copy of the game.

i agree, used games ARE just as bad as piracy

and i'm guilty of it myself, though when a game comes out that I know won't do very well in sales I make sure to purchase a new copy, like no more heroes, sotc, ico and okami

i think people are desperate to hate on the fact that they don't have the cash or knowledge to own a gaming pc so they overplay piracy issues

if you look at pc communities, despite what they lose from piracy, they also help support future developers with mods.. and those people don't care who downloads their game for free

whatever happened to this...

piracy requires a high speed internet connection and some computer savvy knowledge.. not your average consumer

a used game purchase requires a trip to your local retailer, and you KNOW they push it

if you want to downplay used game sales, look at gamespots profit records

I don't think that is entirely the case, yes games cost quite a bit, but to a pirater free is free and that's the bottom line:(

APOLLOCJD

How do you think a person that makes a living working at McDonalds can afford an high-end computer and play Crysis? Free may be free, but that is how some people can fit gaming into the annual budget.

Crysis, for example, is only partially a victim of piracy. It is also a victim of high priced requirements. The average PC gamer has a boxed computer bought from a store, not an overclocked monster built in the secret basement laboratory.

Why do we discuss piracy so much? every industry suffers from it, what the hell is the point?Meu2k7

Before the internet has widespread, pirates had to buy cassette tapes and burnable discs to transport the videos, music, and software. Thanks to the abilities of the internet, a pirate can reduce the cost of mass production to zero by uploading the data to P2P networks. It only takes communication bandwidth to spread the media today, so the only physical storage device needed is the end user to have enough hard drive space, which increases by buying another 500 GB external harddrive.

Basically before the internet, it cost the pirates to duplicate videos and music. With the internet, all the pirates have to do is post it and let file sharing duplicate the media.

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]Why do we discuss piracy so much? every industry suffers from it, what the hell is the point?lightningbugx

Before the internet has widespread, pirates had to buy cassette tapes and burnable discs to transport the videos, music, and software. Thanks to the abilities of the internet, a pirate can reduce the cost of mass production to zero by uploading the data to P2P networks. It only takes communication bandwidth to spread the media today, so the only physical storage device needed is the end user to have enough hard drive space, which increases by buying another 500 GB external harddrive.

Basically before the internet, it cost the pirates to duplicate videos and music. With the internet, all the pirates have to do is post it and let file sharing duplicate the media.

Yes I know this, but how is it still relevant to anything in system wars? (that would go for all sales) , discussing it again and again like if something will happen is just pointless.

Games and Features is what its about, if Piracy does end up killing the PC platform, then fine, so be it. But all this piracy crystal balling is ridiculous.