PC has Piracy, Consoles have piracy, and used game market

Pre owned games are here to stay, deal with it, its not like VHS, DVD, and Books are all sold as new, they have/had thriving new and pre-owned markets

Practically every single product with the exception of foodstuffs has a resale market, used cars, property, musical instruments, Once a product is in the market, the original producer of the product doesnt see any returns.

Saying used sales damage the industry sounds absolutely crazy, its as if you guys are making out that nobody buys any game new.

I mean maybe i dont get it, do you guys earn half a million a year or something? do you buy everything new?

Moaning about pre owned sales damaging the industry is just hypocritical when id bet 95% of gamespots forum users have something that was pre-owned, be it a car, a tv, ect.

I would be inclined to agree with people if they made the statement that Pre-Owned sales dont benefit the games industry, at least not in a financial sense.

But Damaging the Industry? come on!

I would be inclined to agree with people if they made the statement that Pre-Owned sales dont benefit the games industry, at least not in a financial sense.

But Damaging the Industry? come on!

iamsickofspam

It does hurt the industry. Send an email to any publisher or developer and ask them if they love the fact that people can pick up used games.

The fact is they only make money on new games. When people buy the game used the developer and publisher is not getting that money.

Used games take away from potential new game sales which in turn take away from money going to those that made the game.

Let's say you had a chance to make $100,000 this year if everyone bought something from you new. Let's say you would only get $60,000 if you had a decent number of new games but some were also used. Your potential for sales was $100,000 but you only got $60,000. Would you not feel cheated out of $40,000 of money.

For smaller developers that $40,000 (on a bigger scale of course) could mean the difference between working on your next project, having to let go of staff, or simply going bankrupt altogether.

[QUOTE="hellhund"]I think people underestimate the used games market. I've had a PS2 for years and never bought a "new" game. It was always a used or second-hand "new" game from half.com.skrat_01

Its just the same as piracy, and just as bad

Not a cent is going to the publisher or developer.

Used sales technically rob them of any profit.

Each time you buy a used game they lose a sale.

Well, at least the CD/DVD producer gets something...

[QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="robflores370"]

I agree....Piracy and used game aren't even close to being the same thing....I guess I'm hurting the lawnmower business when I sold my used lawnmower last week.....jeez

robflores370

lawnmowers was an extreme example....I play guitar...let's talk guitars then....Guitar Center sell both used and new guitars and also has trade ins and are a national chain....OMG!!....the guitar business is going down the tubes!!! Not even close sorry

So buy that locical selling guitars = the pre owned games industry.

Bravo your logic continues to astound me.

The Used Games Market is nothing like piracy. :| If it was even remotely close it would be stopped in the great bastion of capitalism; the west.

The fact is buying a used game adds to the economy and GDP of a nation. It is a fair and legal transaction. Not only this but it also upholds the legal matter of "property ownership", you "own" the physical copy of the game.

Hoobinator

It might be a legal practice but it doesent make it good.

Not true. Somebody else already bought the game and gave money to the publisher. There is no guarantee that the person who bought the used game would buy a new one.

cfamgcn

Somone bought that game at full price and then sold it back to Eb or traded it in for another game. The publisher already got their money from the first sell so how are they losing money? Also most people aren't going to buy a used game for $5 less then they can get a new one for. Piracy the game publisher doesn't get any money not one cent.

PS3_3DO

Think.

I trade in 3 games for a new release, 3 people buy those traded in new releases, play them and trade them back with other titles, I then trade in the 'new' title i bought for another title.

ect. ect.

Its a very vicious cycle, and if 1 billion dollars doesent speak volumes about the situation i dont know what does.

[QUOTE="robflores370"][QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="robflores370"]

I agree....Piracy and used game aren't even close to being the same thing....I guess I'm hurting the lawnmower business when I sold my used lawnmower last week.....jeez

skrat_01

lawnmowers was an extreme example....I play guitar...let's talk guitars then....Guitar Center sell both used and new guitars and also has trade ins and are a national chain....OMG!!....the guitar business is going down the tubes!!! Not even close sorry

So buy that locical selling guitars = the pre owned games industry.

Bravo your logic continues to astound me.

And your ignorance astounds me.....read the rest of the posts in this thread.....you are one of the very few that are in denial.....might as well complain about used dvds, used cds, half price book stores, used appliances, used homes, used cars etc..etc...etc.....sure used games hurt the industry but doesnt any used product?.....shouldn't people have the right to sell what is rightfully theirs?......think man....jeez

I'm a consumer. I care whats good for the consumer, and used games is good for the consumer. I don't really care if the used game market is damaging the gaming industry as a whole, the industtry is in excellent shape and any "damage" just equal to slightly less profit.

You guys make it sound like the gaming industry is in the red because of the used game sales, the fact is the gaming industry is extremely profitable and theres absolutely no benefit to us consumers if their gross revenue increased due to a stoppage of used game sales.

And your ignorance astounds me.....read the rest of the posts in this thread.....you are one of the very few that are in denial.....might as well complain about used dvds, used cds, half price book stores, used appliances, used homes, used cars etc..etc...etc.....sure used games hurt the industry but doesnt any used product?.....shouldn't people have the right to sell what is rightfully theirs?......think man....jeez

robflores370

Denail? Im sorry please think for a second. Every major game store franchise promotes pre owned games. Pawn shops are small and uncommon, let alone auctioning your stuff off to ebay, or selling to a person first hand.

Great comparison.

I never said it was wrong for you to sell pre owned games as its so uncommon, I think the retailers practices are whats causing the damage, and hurting the industry.... The statistics speak for themselves.

Just read the article within the link that was posted at the start of the thread.

Piracy is waaaay different to used games, with used games somebody already bought the game, sure it's 1 less person buying it new but there is still one copy being bought for about 2-3 people playing the game. With piracy it's like 1 copy being bought and thousands of people playing that one copy.bobbetybob

true but the thing is one game can be sold 10s or even hundreds of times. that's $600-$6000 they devs don't get. Devs have said the preowned game market is like pirating the game.

[QUOTE="hellhund"]I think people underestimate the used games market. I've had a PS2 for years and never bought a "new" game. It was always a used or second-hand "new" game from half.com.skrat_01

Its just the same as piracy, and just as bad

Not a cent is going to the publisher or developer.

Used sales technically rob them of any profit.

Each time you buy a used game they lose a sale.

exactly, all it does is gives eb trunk loads of money selling preowed for 75% of the new game while they olny give the seller 40%-50%

[QUOTE="omgimba"]

[QUOTE="bobbetybob"]Piracy is waaaay different to used games, with used games somebody already bought the game, sure it's 1 less person buying it new but there is still one copy being bought for about 2-3 people playing the game. With piracy it's like 1 copy being bought and thousands of people playing that one copy.Innovazero2000

Only that the used game market is about 1000 times bigger... Equalling a bigger loss..

perhaps, but the console market ever since the newer gen consoles have come out in 05/06, have consistantly recorded record numbers every quarter, so it can't be all that bad.

Meanwhile I keep hearing PC developers complain more and more about piracy, leading me to believe it's doing more damage.

when did valve complain about piracy? devs that have gone to digital distrubutin aren't complaning

Don't people sell used PC games on eBay, Amazon and various web sites? Deihmos

of course they do, buy you can't sell dd games

[QUOTE="Deihmos"]Don't people sell used PC games on eBay, Amazon and various web sites? smokeydabear076

lol amagine buying cod4 only not to be able to play cod4 sometimes since they key is already in use

On new release day can I go buy that game used?....NO!....but one can sure go pirate it on the internet.....that is the BIG difference in usesd games and piracy. You can pirate a game from day one or before.....and you usually have to wait a while before it is available used. So does this make them equal....NO!....its fairly obvious that piracy does much more damage

robflores370

exdept on release day the ins't usally a crack, sure go download it only to wait a week for a crack, its the same thing

[QUOTE="t3hTwinky"][QUOTE="robflores370"]

Sorry but you are wrong, it is not the same as piracy....when people trade in games at gamestop, guess what they do with their trade ins?...BUY more games

robflores370

Yes, they use their ill-gotten money from trading in used games that publishers don't get any money from to buy MORE used games, which then keeps this process in a vicious cycle from which there is no return, thus causing the death of gaming as we know it. Thanks consoles.

;)

I meant trading in New games...sorry i will edit.....but funny post nonetheless

with my ps2 I basicly didn't buy new games unless they were platnium. wait a week and your wanted game is in the used section

It does hurt the industry. Send an email to any publisher or developer and ask them if they love the fact that people can pick up used games.

The fact is they only make money on new games. When people buy the game used the developer and publisher is not getting that money.

Used games take away from potential new game sales which in turn take away from money going to those that made the game.

Let's say you had a chance to make $100,000 this year if everyone bought something from you new. Let's say you would only get $60,000 if you had a decent number of new games but some were also used. Your potential for sales was $100,000 but you only got $60,000. Would you not feel cheated out of $40,000 of money.

For smaller developers that $40,000 (on a bigger scale of course) could mean the difference between working on your next project, having to let go of staff, or simply going bankrupt altogether.

CajunShooter

I wouldn't say "Hey I shouldve made $100,000, I would say, "Hey I made $60,000. Now how can I improve my next product so that I can make even more on it." No matter what product you make, it will always be sold used. Like I said before, to become a used product someone had to buy it new first.

Someone earlier mentioned that car dealerships that sell used cars have relationships with the manufacturers that makes it different than videos games. But places like gamestop have relationships with game publishers. Why do you think people always go there to reserve games? It is exactly the same as any other industry, there is always going to be a used market and no company has ever hurt from someone selling their product used.

Whereas, with piracy, it highly likely that the person distibuting, did not ever buy an original copy, and they can potentially distribute to thousands, and those thousands can give it to thousands, leading to thousands of people having a copy, with the developers seeing the profit from maybe one copy of the game.

All systems are hurt by people getting games in these ways.

and the used game market does a hell of alot more damage than piracy, imagine, if everyone that buys games at EB games, went out and got the retail version(new), the companies lose far more money to that than PC market does to piracy

shadow_hosi

just fyi ps3 still resisiting piracy!!! but it cant last too long but its lucky to hold it till now because 360 and wii have fallen already to piracy!

[QUOTE="robflores370"]

And your ignorance astounds me.....read the rest of the posts in this thread.....you are one of the very few that are in denial.....might as well complain about used dvds, used cds, half price book stores, used appliances, used homes, used cars etc..etc...etc.....sure used games hurt the industry but doesnt any used product?.....shouldn't people have the right to sell what is rightfully theirs?......think man....jeez

skrat_01

Denail? Im sorry please think for a second. Every major game store franchise promotes pre owned games. Pawn shops are small and uncommon, let alone auctioning your stuff off to ebay, or selling to a person first hand.

Great comparison.

I never said it was wrong for you to sell pre owned games as its so uncommon, I think the retailers practices are whats causing the damage, and hurting the industry.... The statistics speak for themselves.

Just read the article within the link that was posted at the start of the thread.

wow....I don't know what corner of the world you live in, but in every major city in the U.S. there are pawnshops everywhere, hell even chains of them such as cash america pawn, first cash pawn, etc look it up just google pawnshops... and ebay not being common? wow, yes you are in denial. As far as your statistics, I've already shown that it isn't even close to the same thing ...you go back and read the articles... I never said it wasnt damaging, but no more damaging than used books, dvds, guitars, cars, cell phones, guns, stereos, comics, magazines, etc...etc..you are right the numbers do speak for themselves that's why record sales from video games were made last year....

All systems are hurt by people getting games in these ways.

and the used game market does a hell of alot more damage than piracy, imagine, if everyone that buys games at EB games, went out and got the retail version(new), the companies lose far more money to that than PC market does to piracy

shadow_hosi

Pirating is a lot worse than used games, and especially on PC.

Wow people are actually trying to compare second hand sales with piracy. Enough with the numbers. Think morality. Think fundamentals. One is legal. The other one isn't. Get over it. Jeez some of you guys are amazing pieces of work.FrozenLiquid

Yes it is hurting the industry, yes the statistics prove it, yes even though you are legally buying the game, not a cent is going to the publisher or developer, so in that respect its just as bad.

However Piracy is doing more damange nonetheless. Problem is this is a legal practice that is hurting the industry not an illegal one.

wow....I don't know what corner of the world you live in, but in every major city in the U.S. there are pawnshops everywhere, hell even chains of them such as cash america pawn, first cash pawn, etc look it up just google pawnshops... and ebay not being common? wow, yes you are in denial. As far as your statistics, I've already shown that it isn't even close to the same thing ...you go back and read the articles... I never said it wasnt damaging, but no more damaging than used books, dvds, guitars, cars, cell phones, guns, stereos, comics, magazines, etc...etc..you are right the numbers do speak for themselves that's why record sales from video games were made last year....

robflores370

The guys who are not interested in shelling out the full retail price for the game were never going to buy it new anyway, and they don't mind getting the game after its sales have gone stale..hamidious

[QUOTE="robflores370"]

wow....I don't know what corner of the world you live in, but in every major city in the U.S. there are pawnshops everywhere, hell even chains of them such as cash america pawn, first cash pawn, etc look it up just google pawnshops... and ebay not being common? wow, yes you are in denial. As far as your statistics, I've already shown that it isn't even close to the same thing ...you go back and read the articles... I never said it wasnt damaging, but no more damaging than used books, dvds, guitars, cars, cell phones, guns, stereos, comics, magazines, etc...etc..you are right the numbers do speak for themselves that's why record sales from video games were made last year....

skrat_01

oh really?....here's an interesting article about used dvds....."Those used DVD sales at the Blockbuster and Hollywood chains are more than just a way of clearing inventory: they contributed to the rental market's bottom line in 2005 by nearly $1 billion, according to an industry tracker. "

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SALES+BOOST+RENTAL+CHAINS+USED+DVDS+ADD+$1+BILLION+IN+2005-a0141304178

There are more articls about the same thing with cd sales and dvds...

Case in point, people want to get stuff for free. Period. So I say the publishers give the people what they want, and pay for development with ingame advertising sponsorships. I wouldn't have a problem watching a commercial every time I start up a game, as long as it was free.

[QUOTE="robflores370"]

wow....I don't know what corner of the world you live in, but in every major city in the U.S. there are pawnshops everywhere, hell even chains of them such as cash america pawn, first cash pawn, etc look it up just google pawnshops... and ebay not being common? wow, yes you are in denial. As far as your statistics, I've already shown that it isn't even close to the same thing ...you go back and read the articles... I never said it wasnt damaging, but no more damaging than used books, dvds, guitars, cars, cell phones, guns, stereos, comics, magazines, etc...etc..you are right the numbers do speak for themselves that's why record sales from video games were made last year....

skrat_01

here's one on used books.....you are right its not costing 1 billion dollars a year it costs the book industry 2.2 billion a year..."

Over all, used-book purchases accounted for $2.2 billion, or 8 percent, of the $26.3 billion that American consumers spent in 2004 on books of all types. That total was up 11 percent from the previous year, the study found."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/29/books/29book.html

Sorry you are wrong again.....good day

Wow people are actually trying to compare second hand sales with piracy. Enough with the numbers. Think morality. Think fundamentals. One is legal. The other one isn't. Get over it. Jeez some of you guys are amazing pieces of work.FrozenLiquid

You need a wake up call son. This is a brave capitalist world and this is its only morality:

oh really?....here's an interesting article about used dvds....."Those used DVD sales at the Blockbuster and Hollywood chains are more than just a way of clearing inventory: they contributed to the rental market's bottom line in 2005 by nearly $1 billion, according to an industry tracker. "

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SALES+BOOST+RENTAL+CHAINS+USED+DVDS+ADD+$1+BILLION+IN+2005-a0141304178

There are more articls about the same thing with cd sales and dvds...
robflores370

here's one on used books.....you are right its not costing 1 billion dollars a year it costs the book industry 2.2 billion a year..."

Over all, used-book purchases accounted for $2.2 billion, or 8 percent, of the $26.3 billion that American consumers spent in 2004 on books of all types. That total was up 11 percent from the previous year, the study found."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/29/books/29book.html

Sorry you are wrong again.....good day
robflores370

So? Congradulations both industries are being harmed by used sales.

Wrong again? Wrong once because of my own self confessed specualtion. Fair enough, I was incorrect.

Not wrong in basing an argument on a misread comment, ignorantly rambling a point that never existed wrong - like yourself. At least im mature enough to admit being incorrect.

Goodo.

360 piracy is TINY compared to PC piracy in the USA.angelkimne

fixed

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Wow people are actually trying to compare second hand sales with piracy. Enough with the numbers. Think morality. Think fundamentals. One is legal. The other one isn't. Get over it. Jeez some of you guys are amazing pieces of work.skrat_01

Yes it is hurting the industry, yes the statistics prove it, yes even though you are legally buying the game, not a cent is going to the publisher or developer, so in that respect its just as bad.

However Piracy is doing more damange nonetheless. Problem is this is a legal practice that is hurting the industry not an illegal one.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Wow people are actually trying to compare second hand sales with piracy. Enough with the numbers. Think morality. Think fundamentals. One is legal. The other one isn't. Get over it. Jeez some of you guys are amazing pieces of work.True_Gamer_

You need a wake up call son. This is a brave capitalist world and this is its only morality:

[QUOTE="LordMontezuma"]

When I buy an uncertified used car, I hurt the automobile industry. It would be better for the industry if I just stole that car.

Flawless logic.

AmyMizuno

"Generally." When the dealership is certified, yes. When I buy my neighbor's pickup, no. What this topic is telling me is that it'd be less harmful to the industry if I stole that car from my neighbor than if I bought it from him. That's what makes no sense.

its really gamestop that killing the industryMad_Rhetoric

[QUOTE="angelkimne"]360 piracy is TINY compared to PC piracy in the USA.True_Gamer_

fixed

The rest of the world doesn't pirate PC games? This thread is just full of win.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]

[QUOTE="angelkimne"]360 piracy is TINY compared to PC piracy in the USA.LordMontezuma

fixed

The rest of the world doesn't pirate PC games? This thread is just full of win.

No but console piracy is just as bad as PC piracy in other countries.. such as mine.. it's actually harder to get an original game than a pirated one down here..

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"] It is causing a lose of revenue for the industry. That is a corrosive business practice no matter how you spin it. Just because society legitimizes something doesn't make it any less corrosive. You can tie a pretty pink bow on a serial killer, he is still a serial killer. No matter what you say second hand sales negatively impact the original owner. Vandalvideo

Can I get a "pwnd" for this statement? Economics isn't my thing but Vandal just put it in layman's terms for me :D

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"] It is causing a lose of revenue for the industry. That is a corrosive business practice no matter how you spin it. Just because society legitimizes something doesn't make it any less corrosive. You can tie a pretty pink bow on a serial killer, he is still a serial killer. No matter what you say second hand sales negatively impact the original owner. Vandalvideo

that's funny this quote is taken from the first link you posted...."

"It is 100% legal to re-sell videogames. The publishers have no leg to stand on," explains Jason Schultz, staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Because of the First Sale doctrine, publishers have no legal right to get paid for used games, anymore than book publishers get paid from secondhand bookstores, or music companies from used record sales. This won't stop them fromfinding another way to strike back at GameStop, however.

Even as the publishers make war-plans, Best Buy and Blockbuster have joined the fray. Most Blockbuster stores now not only rent videogames, they buy and sell used games, too, usually offering significantly better trade-in values and charging less. Blockbuster is largely ignored in discussion of game retail, but it needs to find a new business as TV on-demand catches on, and looks willing to fight hard for games revenues.

Best Buy is still testing a pilot program for used games, but industry insiders seem to expect it to go forward. As a big box retailer, Best Buy isn't suffering from the tiered pricing model the way GameStop is, and it can accept lower margins on used games. And if Best Buy succeeds with used games, Target, Wal-Mart and the rest might follow."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_26/159-A-Marginal-Business.3

And the other links you posted do not mention video games whatsoever......the music and movie business are reeling...the video game business is not.....sorry this argument fails