Again, what's "worth it" or not varies from person to person. You can think it's not, as much as we can think it is. So why is live "worth it" then? Put that against the facts we've given that says it's not and see how that fares.Live is worth $50 per year or $4.16 per month to me because in my 36 years of life I've seen stuff that would make anyone sick, scared and cry for momma. And to escape these memories, thoughts, I drank, used narcotics and self destructive behavior. I am in recovery now and attend meeting regularly. I often look back at how much money i spent on this self destruction and i can say easily $100k is a safe bet. And it never made me happy or stress free. I pay for Live and I never stress the $4, and 99% of the time I'm happy to play the game, movie, video, demo I'm playing. Now notice I said this is why it's worth it to me. I accept it's not worth it to you. But saying it should be free is stating your sense of value is the right one and everyone else's that's different is wrong. You really don't see the basic falseness of that?[QUOTE="Verge_6"] If you want to play a 360 game online which is a feature within the game you HAVE to pay for live, even if there is a disclaimer that says you aren't entitled to they get away with it. [QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="Dystopian-X"]Read my and others previous posts where we state why you are paying mostly just because MS wants you to and not because the serive is worth it.Dystopian-X
Should Be Free
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Are you trying to escape the fact that I'm right, I know the truth hurts and all. But you just gotta accept that opinions are just that mere illusions in our minds. There is an invincable hand in the sky telling us what is wrong or right. And my opinion is right.FloWeN-UK"Escape"? You're the one that brought things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant to this discussion :| We were talking of what people finds value in, the products that people think are worth paying for, and about the right companies have to charge for and the right people have to pay for it or not. It has been a ver specific discussion, and you twisted thing beyond any rational perception. So, back on topic, (the products that people think are worth paying for), no, there's no universal description of what's "right" for the people to pay for or not.
Again, what's "worth it" or not varies from person to person. You can think it's not, as much as we can think it is. So why is live "worth it" then? Put that against the facts we've given that says it's not and see how that fares. but if its an optional purchase, and the 360 is, and there are certainly free options available, what is the issue?[QUOTE="Verge_6"] If you want to play a 360 game online which is a feature within the game you HAVE to pay for live, even if there is a disclaimer that says you aren't entitled to they get away with it. [QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="Dystopian-X"]Read my and others previous posts where we state why you are paying mostly just because MS wants you to and not because the serive is worth it.Dystopian-X
That is fact.FloWeN-UKNo, it's not.
Lance_Kalzas forget it it's done. If people want to believe the conclusions they come to in their own heads equate truth fine. I'm open to anyone who can provide facts that state their personal sense of value, right and wrong and overall opinions are facts that we all have to abide by.cainetao11There is such thing as role models. We should all atleast attempt to live up to the standards of the next best person.
[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="FloWeN-UK"]Are you trying to escape the fact that I'm right, I know the truth hurts and all. But you just gotta accept that opinions are just that mere illusions in our minds. There is an invincable hand in the sky telling us what is wrong or right. And my opinion is right.FloWeN-UK"Escape"? You're the one that brought things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant to this discussion :| We were talking of what people finds value in, the products that people think are worth paying for, and about the right companies have to charge for and the right people have to pay for it or not. It has been a ver specific discussion, and you twisted thing beyond any rational perception. So, back on topic, (the products that people think are worth paying for), no, there's no universal description of what's "right" for the people to pay for or not. I didn't twist anything I just told you an example of opinions that differ from normal opinions. Maybe abit extreme but none the less proved that there is such thing as a normal opinion. Now if we bring that back into gaming, the normal opinions have superior taste to those that degraded taste. That is fact.No you didn't prove anything. There is no such thing as a normal opinion. Who laid down the ground rules for this, where is it written, how can a person compare their opinion to a normal one to see if it fits the bill? Facts can provide information for comparison. You just can't get the fact that no opinion is normal or abnormal. That's just a way of saying right or wrong, and opinions can't be either to anyone but the holder of the opinion. Why is this so hard to understand? On matters of personal preference, I can't be wrong about my preferences. Their mine. I'm the only one they need to serve.
There is such thing as role models. We should all atleast attempt to live up to the standards of the next best person. Or have a character strong enought to decide for ourselves.[QUOTE="cainetao11"]Lance_Kalzas forget it it's done. If people want to believe the conclusions they come to in their own heads equate truth fine. I'm open to anyone who can provide facts that state their personal sense of value, right and wrong and overall opinions are facts that we all have to abide by.FloWeN-UK
There is such thing as role models. We should all atleast attempt to live up to the standards of the next best person.Yes, there are role models. And no we shouldn't, but it sounds like you believe you should attempt to live up to those standards. I try to live truthfully. The truth needs no defense because it already is the truth. Nobody can make it false. It does take strength, humility, and great self honesty to always live by it. Good luck finding it for yourself.[QUOTE="cainetao11"]Lance_Kalzas forget it it's done. If people want to believe the conclusions they come to in their own heads equate truth fine. I'm open to anyone who can provide facts that state their personal sense of value, right and wrong and overall opinions are facts that we all have to abide by.FloWeN-UK
[QUOTE="Dystopian-X"][QUOTE="VoodooHak"]We are against you saying "Anyone who agrees to pay is wrong."Verge_6You are not "wrong" because it's your call to pay but are in fact getting milked and won't admit it and as far as I know the TC and some others here are telling me I can't say "It should be free". You don't even know the definition of 'milking'. Milking is defined as being forced, with NO OPTION, to pay for something that is absolutely mandatory to use a game or a system. The N64 expansion pack is a proper example of 'milking'.Even that's debatable. After all, Pokemon Stadium 2 ran fine without it: just at reduced quality. And the first game that needed it came with it. And plenty of games didn't need it at all.
There is such thing as role models. We should all atleast attempt to live up to the standards of the next best person.[QUOTE="cainetao11"]Lance_Kalzas forget it it's done. If people want to believe the conclusions they come to in their own heads equate truth fine. I'm open to anyone who can provide facts that state their personal sense of value, right and wrong and overall opinions are facts that we all have to abide by.FloWeN-UK
I don't rely on others to define what my standards should be. Psychological, emotional and intellectual maturty allow me to define my own standards sans any outside influences.
[QUOTE="FloWeN-UK"]There is such thing as role models. We should all atleast attempt to live up to the standards of the next best person. Or have a character strong enought to decide for ourselves. Living up to your own beliefs may not always be the right thing to do if your trying to better youself and in some cases abit recklass.[QUOTE="cainetao11"]Lance_Kalzas forget it it's done. If people want to believe the conclusions they come to in their own heads equate truth fine. I'm open to anyone who can provide facts that state their personal sense of value, right and wrong and overall opinions are facts that we all have to abide by.IronBass
Firstly, there have been any "facts that says it's not". You have only given your opinion about it, not facts. Secondly, I think Live is worth it (to me) because: 1. It's the only system that let me play both Gears of War 2 and Resident Evil 5, the only two games that I play online. 2. Cross game voice chat. Yes, I've found myself talking a lot with friends even if we were playing different games. 3. The almost standard mic. It's pretty cool that almost everybody talks. It add a lot to the experience. Those are my three reasons. Of course, I know they are completely personal and that a lot fo people don't share them.IronBassIt is a FACT that live uses host-client service and barely any dedis, it's a fact that you can get these for free in other services and it's a fact that you are basically paying to unloock a feature that's included in the game.
It is a FACT that live uses host-client service and barely any dedis, it's a fact that you can get these for free in other services and it's a fact that you are basically paying to unloock a feature that's included in the game.[QUOTE="IronBass"] Firstly, there have been any "facts that says it's not". You have only given your opinion about it, not facts. Secondly, I think Live is worth it (to me) because: 1. It's the only system that let me play both Gears of War 2 and Resident Evil 5, the only two games that I play online. 2. Cross game voice chat. Yes, I've found myself talking a lot with friends even if we were playing different games. 3. The almost standard mic. It's pretty cool that almost everybody talks. It add a lot to the experience. Those are my three reasons. Of course, I know they are completely personal and that a lot fo people don't share them.Dystopian-X
But it's not a fact that dedicated servers are always, 100% of the time better than peer to peer. There are instances where peer to peer is the better option plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Xbox Live have a few games that have dedicated servers? I thought I saw someone say Xbox Live is has 4 games while PSN has 9 games.
The idea behind the fee is that Xbox Live is a better service than PSN. There are several features that illustrate that. Whether that is of value to you is your opinion meaning this is subjective. That's great if you don't find it has value for you but there are 17 million users that find enough value in it to keep paying every month/year.
ILiving up to your own beliefs may not always be the right thing to do if your trying to better youself and in some cases abit recklass.Dystopian-XYou are going off-topic again (I'm not surprised). Again: we are talkin of us, having an opinion of what's worthy and what's not. I have a character strong enough to decide that by myself. If somebody doesn't think a product/service/thing is not worth the money, will not change my opinion, because I judg things by myself. So the argument that "most people, role models etc etc. think this or that" is irrelevant to me.
I fully understand that complainers can be annoying but the truth is they actually IMPROVE our gaming experience. In the business world companies only get away with what WE let them get away with and they sell us goods at prices WE decide are worth purchasing. And if we don't like what we are getting compared to other competition we have every RIGHT to COMPLAIN and speak with our money. So no TC, I strongly disagree with you. Here is a small list of things that improved this gen. because gamers felt they deserved more for their money and complained:
- Virtual Fighter 5 online play for the 360
- Cheaper console models
- Constant firmware updates for PSN
- HDMI, 1080p, Wireless controllers becoming standard on the 360
- Extended Warranty for RROD and E74 error
- Sequals to games being much better and having more features then the original
- And the vast amount of firmware updates that fix bugs on games released too quickly for both 360/PS3 games
So no, don't dis-way people from complaining because they push businesses into action to fix the problems. Obviously we won't always get exactly what we ask for but instead of free, cheaper prices may be the compromise or more features to justify the purchase. So to all you gamers who think those crybaby petition writers are hurting gaming, your wrong, they are VASTLY helping gaming and giving businesses the feedback they need to better appease us as the consumers.That's how it works, businesses try to sell a little for a lot and we try to buy a lot for a little and somewhere along the way businesses find that sweet spot that makes us happyand them a profit if their smart and successful.
It is a FACT that live uses host-client service and barely any dedis, it's a fact that you can get these for free in other services and it's a fact that you are basically paying to unloock a feature that's included in the game.[QUOTE="Dystopian-X"]
[QUOTE="IronBass"] Firstly, there have been any "facts that says it's not". You have only given your opinion about it, not facts. Secondly, I think Live is worth it (to me) because: 1. It's the only system that let me play both Gears of War 2 and Resident Evil 5, the only two games that I play online. 2. Cross game voice chat. Yes, I've found myself talking a lot with friends even if we were playing different games. 3. The almost standard mic. It's pretty cool that almost everybody talks. It add a lot to the experience. Those are my three reasons. Of course, I know they are completely personal and that a lot fo people don't share them.Lance_Kalzas
But it's not a fact that dedicated servers are always, 100% of the time better than peer to peer. There are instances where peer to peer is the better option plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Xbox Live have a few games that have dedicated servers? I thought I saw someone say Xbox Live is has 4 games while PSN has 9 games.
The idea behind the fee is that Xbox Live is a better service than PSN. There are several features that illustrate that. Whether that is of value to you is your opinion meaning this is subjective. That's great if you don't find it has value for you but there are 17 million users that find enough value in it to keep paying every month/year.
It is also NOT a fact that dedicated servers are a major consideration for everyone.
This SHOULD end this thread.I fully understand that complainers can be annoying but the truth is they actually IMPROVE our gaming experience. In the business world companies only get away with what WE let them get away with and they sell us goods at prices WE decide are worth purchasing. And if we don't like what we are getting compared to other competition we have every RIGHT to COMPLAIN and speak with our money. So no TC, I strongly disagree with you. Here is a small list of things that improved this gen. because gamers felt they deserved more for their money and complained:
- Virtual Fighter 5 online play for the 360
- Cheaper console models
- Constant firmware updates for PSN
- HDMI, 1080p, Wireless controllers becoming standard on the 360
- Extended Warranty for RROD and E74 error
- Sequals to games being much better and having more features then the original
- And the vast amount of firmware updates that fix bugs on games released too quickly for both 360/PS3 games
So no, don't dis-way people from complaining because they push businesses into action to fix the problems. Obviously we won't always get exactly what we ask for but instead of free, cheaper prices may be the compromise or more features to justify the purchase. So to all you gamers who think those crybaby petition writers are hurting gaming, your wrong, they are VASTLY helping gaming and giving businesses the feedback they need to better appease us as the consumers.That's how it works, businesses try to sell a little for a lot and we try to buy a lot for a little and somewhere along the way businesses find that sweet spot that makes us happyand them a profit if their smart and successful.
Javy03
[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"]Even that's debatable. After all, Pokemon Stadium 2 ran fine without it: just at reduced quality. And the first game that needed it came with it. And plenty of games didn't need it at all.HuusAskingThen the Donkey Kong game then. Even then, my point still stands.That was that first game that needed it that I mentioned. As I recall, the RAM pak came with it. You're right. Majora's Mask then. It did not come with it included. And once again, my point stands.
What about lag and host advantage, both of which are of concern to gamers (since they don't like cheats nor being cut off), which dedicated servers tend to keep under control?It is also NOT a fact that dedicated servers are a major consideration for everyone.
VoodooHak
Well said my friend. I don't think complainers or whiners are hurting us even when annoying. Afterall, we've all complained about something. If theyare petition writers and actively pushing for change then I commend them, that's a constitutional right. But if your not doing anything but blaming putting down the people who don't stress the fee for live then you just want others to get you what you want. I don't commend that.I fully understand that complainers can be annoying but the truth is they actually IMPROVE our gaming experience. In the business world companies only get away with what WE let them get away with and they sell us goods at prices WE decide are worth purchasing. And if we don't like what we are getting compared to other competition we have every RIGHT to COMPLAIN and speak with our money. So no TC, I strongly disagree with you. Here is a small list of things that improved this gen. because gamers felt they deserved more for their money and complained:
- Virtual Fighter 5 online play for the 360
- Cheaper console models
- Constant firmware updates for PSN
- HDMI, 1080p, Wireless controllers becoming standard on the 360
- Extended Warranty for RROD and E74 error
- Sequals to games being much better and having more features then the original
- And the vast amount of firmware updates that fix bugs on games released too quickly for both 360/PS3 games
So no, don't dis-way people from complaining because they push businesses into action to fix the problems. Obviously we won't always get exactly what we ask for but instead of free, cheaper prices may be the compromise or more features to justify the purchase. So to all you gamers who think those crybaby petition writers are hurting gaming, your wrong, they are VASTLY helping gaming and giving businesses the feedback they need to better appease us as the consumers.That's how it works, businesses try to sell a little for a lot and we try to buy a lot for a little and somewhere along the way businesses find that sweet spot that makes us happyand them a profit if their smart and successful.
Javy03
[QUOTE="Javy03"]This SHOULD end this thread.I fully understand that complainers can be annoying but the truth is they actually IMPROVE our gaming experience. In the business world companies only get away with what WE let them get away with and they sell us goods at prices WE decide are worth purchasing. And if we don't like what we are getting compared to other competition we have every RIGHT to COMPLAIN and speak with our money. So no TC, I strongly disagree with you. Here is a small list of things that improved this gen. because gamers felt they deserved more for their money and complained:
- Virtual Fighter 5 online play for the 360
- Cheaper console models
- Constant firmware updates for PSN
- HDMI, 1080p, Wireless controllers becoming standard on the 360
- Extended Warranty for RROD and E74 error
- Sequals to games being much better and having more features then the original
- And the vast amount of firmware updates that fix bugs on games released too quickly for both 360/PS3 games
So no, don't dis-way people from complaining because they push businesses into action to fix the problems. Obviously we won't always get exactly what we ask for but instead of free, cheaper prices may be the compromise or more features to justify the purchase. So to all you gamers who think those crybaby petition writers are hurting gaming, your wrong, they are VASTLY helping gaming and giving businesses the feedback they need to better appease us as the consumers.That's how it works, businesses try to sell a little for a lot and we try to buy a lot for a little and somewhere along the way businesses find that sweet spot that makes us happyand them a profit if their smart and successful.
VideoGameGuy
No. Because he's missing the point.
People do have a right to complain. They do NOT have a right to tell me that their opinion is more valid than anyone who disagrees.
The gaming world at the moment is seemingly full of whiners complaining that X 'Should Be Free' or this is too expensive and should be cheaper.
If you examine the phrase 'Should Be Free' what are they actually trying to say. 'Should be free' from a moral obligation? Well, I can understand education 'should be free' or healthcare 'should be free'. Fine, you can realistically argue those things should be free from a moral perspective but video game services or add-on game content?! I think not.
What they are actually saying if you expand that sentance is, X should be free because I want it. Hardly a compelling argument is it? In fact, it's very childish. Most people get to an age where they realise many things in life are financially out of their reach or simply too expensive to be a sensible purchase given their means and they accept this and stop whining about it.
Porsche 911s should be cheaper because I want one.
The sole purpose of a business is to make profit, if you understand this what is there to whine about? Sure, it's a fair comment to say, I think X should be cheaper because that would actually end up be beneficial for the company in the long run, I think they would make more profit. I think this about the Video Marketplace, I think dropping the price would actually cause a significant increase in customers. Lets be honest though, Microsoft has more than a few highly paid people to set prices for this type of thing and I'm darn sure they know more than I do on the matter so I probably am wrong on that one.
There are several pieces of DLC for example that while I could afford to pay for them, they're just not money well spent to me. I make financial decisions like this every day of my adult life, I don't feel compelled to whinge every time I come across something I would like but either I flat out cannot afford or don't deem good value.
I'm sure pretty much everyone will reach this point in their life but lets hurry it a long a little shall we, for the sake of internet boards all over the world ;)
What you're entitled to when you purchase software
Some people simple do not understand what they are paying for when they buy software so get angry when they don't get what they think they are entitled to.
You ARE entitled to:
- To play the game as indicated on the packaging
You are NOT entitled to:
- Features/content not part of the original game, be they on the disc or not, created after the release or even before. You do not 'own' all the code on the disc, merely a right to use it in it's described form.
- Play online multiplayer for game without the appropriate service. Just because the content for online play is on the disc, you have NOT paid for the right to use it.
[QUOTE="VoodooHak"]What about lag and host advantage, both of which are of concern to gamers (since they don't like cheats nor being cut off), which dedicated servers tend to keep under control?It is also NOT a fact that dedicated servers are a major consideration for everyone.
HuusAsking
I play co-op mainly with friends, so have very rarely run into lag or host advantage. If I don't experience the problems, why does it matter to me? It doesn't.
So no, dedicated servers are not a major consideration across the board. Sure they'de be nice to have, but are not driving my decision to pay or not pay for XBL.
[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"]That was that first game that needed it that I mentioned. As I recall, the RAM pak came with it.HuusAskingYou're right. Majora's Mask then. It did not come with it included. And once again, my point stands.No, three options: 1) Get DK64, which has the Pak. 2) Get the Pak separately, which became available later. 3) Don't get it. The number of games that required it could be counted on one hand, and one of them came with it. You are entirely missing the point. The expansion pack was MANDATORY in order for some games, entire games, to be played. THAT is milking. The amount of games that required it are entirely inconsequential to the current discussion.
This SHOULD end this thread.[QUOTE="VideoGameGuy"][QUOTE="Javy03"]
I fully understand that complainers can be annoying but the truth is they actually IMPROVE our gaming experience. In the business world companies only get away with what WE let them get away with and they sell us goods at prices WE decide are worth purchasing. And if we don't like what we are getting compared to other competition we have every RIGHT to COMPLAIN and speak with our money. So no TC, I strongly disagree with you. Here is a small list of things that improved this gen. because gamers felt they deserved more for their money and complained:
- Virtual Fighter 5 online play for the 360
- Cheaper console models
- Constant firmware updates for PSN
- HDMI, 1080p, Wireless controllers becoming standard on the 360
- Extended Warranty for RROD and E74 error
- Sequals to games being much better and having more features then the original
- And the vast amount of firmware updates that fix bugs on games released too quickly for both 360/PS3 games
So no, don't dis-way people from complaining because they push businesses into action to fix the problems. Obviously we won't always get exactly what we ask for but instead of free, cheaper prices may be the compromise or more features to justify the purchase. So to all you gamers who think those crybaby petition writers are hurting gaming, your wrong, they are VASTLY helping gaming and giving businesses the feedback they need to better appease us as the consumers.That's how it works, businesses try to sell a little for a lot and we try to buy a lot for a little and somewhere along the way businesses find that sweet spot that makes us happyand them a profit if their smart and successful.
VoodooHak
No. Because he's missing the point.
People do have a right to complain. They do NOT have a right to tell me that their opinion is more valid than anyone who disagrees.
Of course not. This back and forth is nonsense though.[QUOTE="voxware00"][QUOTE="cainetao11"]So how am I keeping your choice at a premium? Make use of freedom and make a choice that fits your needs. And for what sake should I defend freedom, pal. The ones you deem worthy. I believe it all starts with freedom, period. I don't have the right or authority to tell anyone else what they can do with their money or what they can charge for what they provide. I accept this and make my own decisions about the value of my purchases and accept you have the same freedom. I don't blame others when I'm not getting things the way I want them. I deal with it. Whining is another freedom we all share, so let's all keep going. But I also never assumed what you or another would do for the sake of attacking their morals.cainetao11
You think everyone should be able to do with their money as they please, especially for the sake of freedom.. I said does that include people spending money on shaping our government behind closed doors.. you haven't actually answered this
You keep my choice at a premium by paying for live at inflated prices, if it is a success, they see no reason to lower costs or change their business model
No, you didn't "does that include". That implies a question was asked of me. You said something along the lines of "you would pay lobbyists", assuming what I would do. Let's go to political discussion board for that, keep it games related here. I also addressed the next one with :make a free choice that fits your needs. XBL doesn't sound like "the one for you". Sell the box and get a PS3. I also said I don't blame others when I don't get things my way. I deal with it. Petition MS, write your congressman, buy a PS3, Wii, or Gaming PC. All are viable solutions for your problem with the $50 per year Live fee. Sitting back and blaming others for enjoying something completely legal because you want it for free?I'm assuming, based on your belief that freedom is the key issue being defended here, that you would defend freedom even for the corrupt. You had the freedom to choose to disagree.. if you're bringing your service into the subject to justify your views, maybe your views belong more on a political forum as well. It's like letting your morals decide your decesions if you're a doctor or pharmacist.
You felt my assumption was irrelevant, I'm saying if freedom is the core of this arguement, my question is every bit as relevant as your statement. Arguing for freedom just for the sake of freedom isn't always the best option in my illustration. If you don't like people whining about it, don't whine and tell us to accept it compromising our own freedom. Because of supporters choices, the people who disagree with the service have more to lose because they're subjected to inflated prices due to people who believe in a different concept of value. What do you people have to lose, who cares if people claim you're getting milked. Some people clearly disagree with a flat flee business model.. Maybe I'd prefer online if it were a per usage basis.. It's like the reason cable internet is so expensive and alienating lower usage users because they're given a flat fee to make up for the higher bandwidth users
[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"]No, three options: 1) Get DK64, which has the Pak. 2) Get the Pak separately, which became available later. 3) Don't get it. The number of games that required it could be counted on one hand, and one of them came with it.HuusAskingYou are entirely missing the point. The expansion pack was MANDATORY in order for some games, entire games, to be played. THAT is milking. The amount of games that required it are entirely inconsequential to the current discussion.Yes it is relevant, since it's still optional. It's not like you're buying the game at gunpoint, after all. As long as you have the option to not play, you're not required to get it, and that means it isn't milking. To use your definition, all accessory games become examples of milking (Guitar Hero and Rock Band spring to mind, as do microphone games like Konami's Lifeline for the PS2 and all those Karaoke games). You are required to purchase another, separate peripheral other than a game console in order to play aforementioned game. How is this not milking? This isn't about whether you have the bloody game or not, or whether you are forced to purchase it or not. It's about the fact you HAVE to purchase something else other than a game console in order to play a game. That is, by SW definition, milking. You cannot spin that.
[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="Dystopian-X"] to justify why we SHOULD pay.Dystopian-X"We"? "Should"? Wrong. I'm speaking for myself. I've never said anything about other people, nor said that you should pay anything. :| "We" As in everyone one of you who are trying to justify paying including the TC who is against me saying: "I shouldn't pay". People should not have bought PS3s. It showed that a $600-$400 console was acceptable in the industry. People should not have bought Wiis, as that showed that people would fall over themselves for old hardware and waggle. People should not have bought a gaming PC, as it showed the industry that you are willing to upgrade PC parts. See, I can live everyone else's life for them from my pedestal too...Like I said, I find value in the things I buy. If you don't like what I do with my money, stop butting into it. Jeez I swear people spend more time worrying about what others do than they worry about themselves.
People should not have bought PS3s. It showed that a $600-$400 console was acceptable in the industry. People should not have bought Wiis, as that showed that people would fall over themselves for old hardware and waggle. People should not have bought a gaming PC, as it showed the industry that you are willing to upgrade PC parts. See, I can live everyone else's life for them from my pedestal too...Like I said, I find value in the things I buy. If you don't like what I do with my money, stop butting into it. Jeez I swear people spend more time worrying about what others do than they worry about themselves.SpruceCaboose
What you consider of more value is not really my problem and I understand the reasons why you would go and pay for it, I'm just arguing since I disagree with the TC and most of the replies I get from those defending paying for this are basically: "I don't mind paying for live so it's ok to do so" and just ignore the facts of why it's not.
This SHOULD end this thread.[QUOTE="VideoGameGuy"][QUOTE="Javy03"]
I fully understand that complainers can be annoying but the truth is they actually IMPROVE our gaming experience. In the business world companies only get away with what WE let them get away with and they sell us goods at prices WE decide are worth purchasing. And if we don't like what we are getting compared to other competition we have every RIGHT to COMPLAIN and speak with our money. So no TC, I strongly disagree with you. Here is a small list of things that improved this gen. because gamers felt they deserved more for their money and complained:
- Virtual Fighter 5 online play for the 360
- Cheaper console models
- Constant firmware updates for PSN
- HDMI, 1080p, Wireless controllers becoming standard on the 360
- Extended Warranty for RROD and E74 error
- Sequals to games being much better and having more features then the original
- And the vast amount of firmware updates that fix bugs on games released too quickly for both 360/PS3 games
So no, don't dis-way people from complaining because they push businesses into action to fix the problems. Obviously we won't always get exactly what we ask for but instead of free, cheaper prices may be the compromise or more features to justify the purchase. So to all you gamers who think those crybaby petition writers are hurting gaming, your wrong, they are VASTLY helping gaming and giving businesses the feedback they need to better appease us as the consumers.That's how it works, businesses try to sell a little for a lot and we try to buy a lot for a little and somewhere along the way businesses find that sweet spot that makes us happyand them a profit if their smart and successful.
VoodooHak
No. Because he's missing the point.
People do have a right to complain. They do NOT have a right to tell me that their opinion is more valid than anyone who disagrees.
No I think you might be missing the point. No serious poster here is arguing that one person's opinion is more important then anothers but guess what, if someone feels strong enough about their opinion that they want to take action more power to them. And if you disagree then stand up and have your voice heard, but enough complaining about complainers. At the end of the day the majority of the time people who cry for more end up convincing companies to give us more so be thankful.
[QUOTE="VoodooHak"]This SHOULD end this thread.VideoGameGuy
No. Because he's missing the point.
People do have a right to complain. They do NOT have a right to tell me that their opinion is more valid than anyone who disagrees.
Of course not. This back and forth is nonsense though.The only reason this "nonsense" is going back and forth is because there are certain posters that insist their opinion is fact and/or their opinion is more important than everyone else's.
No I think you might be missing the point. No serious poster here is arguing that one person's opinion is more important then anothers but guess what, if someone feels strong enough about their opinion that they want to take action more power to them. And if you disagree then stand up and have your voice heard, but enough complaining about complainers. At the end of the day the majority of the time people who cry for more end up convincing companies to give us more so be thankful.
Javy03
If you read through this thread, not even alot of it, you will definitely see people here arguing that their own opinion is more important than anyone else's.
And if you read through enough of this thread, you should have realized that no one's bemoaning anyone's right to complain. We have always been against people's insistance that their opinion is above anyone else's. We've been articulate on that point multiple times.
[QUOTE="Javy03"]
No I think you might be missing the point. No serious poster here is arguing that one person's opinion is more important then anothers but guess what, if someone feels strong enough about their opinion that they want to take action more power to them. And if you disagree then stand up and have your voice heard, but enough complaining about complainers. At the end of the day the majority of the time people who cry for more end up convincing companies to give us more so be thankful.
VoodooHak
If you read through this thread, not even alot of it, you will definitely see people here arguing that their own opinion is more important than anyone else's.
And if you read through enough of this thread, you should have realized that no one's bemoaning anyone's right to complain. We have always been against people's insistance that their opinion is above anyone else's. We've been articulate on that point multiple times.
Your opinion that no one's opinion should be above anyone else's has been noted... but does this mean that your opinion about opinions is the only correct one? If so is there not a paradox here?[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]People should not have bought PS3s. It showed that a $600-$400 console was acceptable in the industry. People should not have bought Wiis, as that showed that people would fall over themselves for old hardware and waggle. People should not have bought a gaming PC, as it showed the industry that you are willing to upgrade PC parts. See, I can live everyone else's life for them from my pedestal too...
Like I said, I find value in the things I buy. If you don't like what I do with my money, stop butting into it. Jeez I swear people spend more time worrying about what others do than they worry about themselves.Dystopian-X
What you consider of more value is not really my problem and I understand the reasons why you would go and pay for it, I'm just arguing since I disagree with the TC and most of the replies I get from those defending paying for this are basically: "I don't mind paying for live so it's ok to do so" and just ignore the facts of why it's not.
"What you consider of more value is not really my problem and I understand the reasons why you would go and pay for it"
"the facts of why it's not."
Your own words. Do you not see the discrepancy here? What you call facts are not facts. To repeat for the umpteenth time, they're opinions.
You should not have to pay, to access content on a game disk you already paid for.
Especially when the online games are played through other players connections over client hosts.
And it adds to insult that the Live service is free on PC, and only the Xbox 360 has an online fee.
Now YES, MS are free to charge for it. Fine.
However the practice is still ripping off gamers.
Sure enjoy XBL games, as you should - i did, and yes its better than PSN.
However that doesn't stop the service from being a completely ripoff, and poor money making scheme on Microsofts behalf.
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Defending the service for being better is just fine.
Defending the price tag is somewhat ludicrous.
"What you consider of more value is not really my problem and I understand the reasons why you would go and pay for it"What opinion? Yes, It's your opinion that paying for live is worth it to you but it's a fact that you are paying for client-host service, just like it's a fact that you are paying to unlock content that's already inside the game and it's a fact that this service is free in most cases unless you pay for servers, I have said this enough times already."the facts of why it's not."Your own words. Do you not see the discrepancy here? What you call facts are not facts. To repeat for the umpteenth time, they're opinions.
VoodooHak
It is indeed YOUR opinion that paying for this is ok to you but that doesn't change the facts I have stated which point out that when someone pays for live they are getting ripped off and we should be able to have a position against this unlike the TC and others claim.
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