Poll Should MK have sexualized/skimpy females (costumes)? (105 votes)
Yes 71%
No 29%
Thanks to all that respond :)
Should MK have sexualized/skimpy females (costumes)?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
I say give the fans what they want. If they want oversexualized females in the game go for it. Lowering it to please people who are not really gonna buy the game anyway seems pointless. This kind of reminds me how Nintendo made Solid Snakes ass smaller in the new Smash brothers game. Almost ruined the entire game for me. Unacceptable. Snake in Brawl did squats, snake in Ultimate......THAT IS NOT SNAKE!!!
@fedor: I had to look him up. He's a chunky guy but does he have a likeable personality
@NoodleFighter said:
@Jag85 said:
2017 was a statistical aberration. Every year between 2012 and 2016 showed continuous growth. And during that period, there was a big diversity push in comics, indicating that the diversity strategy was working in bringing in new audiences to the comic industry. And then there was a slight dip in 2017 (back down to 2015 levels), followed by a return to growth in 2018. Diversity, or lack thereof, had nothing to do with the dip in 2017. It had more to do with the comic industry's transition away from traditional comic book stores:
Comic sales are down as readers abandon print
There has been a gradual decline in traditional comic stores over the last several years, but a gradual growth in alternative distribution channels such as bookstores and digital downloads. In other words, the comic book industry is no longer being dominated by traditional comic stores like it used to, but it's bookstores and digital downloads that are becoming the new driving force behind the industry. Incidentally, it's the bookstores and digital downloads where "diversity" sells very well:
Comic Sales Figures Prove To Marvel: Diversity Isn't The Problem
In other words, there is no real statistical evidence that "diversity" is hurting the comic book industry in any way, but on the contrary the statistical evidence suggests that diversity has only helped drive growth for the comic industry. Diversity simply means having different comics catering to different market demographics. This is something that the Japanese manga industry had already been doing for many decades to great success: shonen for boys, shojo for girls, seinen for adult men, josei for adult women, and kodomo for children. Whereas the US comic industry had previously catered almost exclusively to boys and men (especially white boys and men), before they started diversifying and creating comics catering to girls, women and minorities over the past decade or so. And there has been continuous year-on-year growth ever since (with the sole exception of 2017).
That's interesting, guess I was wrong about comic books being on a decline. I mostly got the idea that it was declining due to comic shops closing down and store owners saying that comic book companies are publishing things no one wants to read. One of the things you left out about manga is that isn't just diverse in age groups and gender. It is highly diverse in genres while the comic book industry is heavily dominated by the superhero genre. Star Wars, Conan and The Walking Dead are pretty much the only popular non superhero comic book series. Even with all the different demographics shonen still remains the most successful/dominate because even though the demographic is for boys a lot of shonen series can easily appeal to other ages and the opposite sex. For example Dragon Ball and Gintama are both shonen but they're hardly anything a like. Some girls may not like fighting series but they may appreciate a pop culture comedy series like Gintama. Some adults may want to look at a more mature series but don't want to look at something very dark and graphic like Berserk but can appreciate Death Note which is dark and mature but not to extreme levels. One Piece is the biggest cultural phenomenon despite being shonen because it has a balance of things that appeal to almost every demographic on top of a good story. Kochikame which is like The Simpsons of Japan due to how popular and long running is also shonen.
I do give the Japanese credit for being diverse even though don't have to be since Japan is a 98.5% Japanese place and manga and anime are made with the Japanese audience in mind first with some exceptions. Tons of animes and mangas have non Japanese characters in them even as main characters and there is also some LGBT representation. They even make characters that are racially ambiguous so they can be interpreted as almost anything.
Actually, you might be partially right. I just remembered something that I overlooked in my previous post:
Manga is a major factor in the US comic market's growth. Back in 2017, manga distributor Viz Media overtook Marvel and DC as the largest US comic publisher:
Viz Manga Sales are Destroying DC, Marvel in Comic Market
And just yesterday, NPD mentioned that manga is a rapidly growing market in the US:
Sales of Manga Books are On the Rise in the United States, The NPD Group Says
So it could very well be that Marvel and DC are actually stagnating, but that it's manga which is driving growth in the US comic market.
As far as diversity is concerned, the NPD report above mentions that US manga readers are generally younger and more diverse than US comic book readers. So this shows that diversity does sell. But in this case, the diversity seems to be helping manga more than Marvel or DC. So it could very well be that manga is "stealing" the younger and more diverse audiences away from Marvel and DC.
@Litchie: it depends on how daring the devs are for some they tend to keep male characters stoic and their butts flat. Kinda unrealistic if a guy is beefy why neglect the butt. You saw how Nintendo nerfed Snake's butt in smash maybe? And now they don't gotta crawl just stop being an unfeeling rock. Every aspect of the body helps bring out certain demeanor when posing that includes facial expression And attitude.
@mkxchrome said:
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome: Well then why do you care how fictional women dress?
Coz I can suspend disbelief.
But you're here on a forum lamenting the fact fictional girls are wearing more clothes than they used to. Clearly this matters to you on some level. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
@NoodleFighter said:
@calvincfb said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Jag85 said:
@NoodleFighter said:
"Wokeness" destroyed the comic book industry. The wokeness in Captain Marvel was so bad that Disney had to bribe movie theaters into showing nothing but it during its opening week and bought tickets to inflate the box office of the movie to make it look like it is doing better than it really is.
US comic book sales have actually been increasing, from $805 million in 2012 to $1.095 billion in 2018:
Comics and graphic novel sales hit new high in 2018
As for Captain Marvel, that beat box office projections and went on to have the biggest opening of any non-Avengers MCU movie.
In both cases, "wokeness" and diversity have been financially lucrative.
And films with less diversity tend to do OKAY to average. Shazam, Alita, Solo.
I mean if you want your movie to perform in the average realm...make it less diverse. It's almost like the world is a beautiful mix of so many cultulres and all those people love to see themselves in the movies they watch. Weird.
LMAO, @NoodleFighter is completely out of touch with reality. Black Panther, Coco, Moana, all with a cast of NON WHITE people were successful. If anything, "wokeness" made things more accessible. Diversity sells. Go back to your chans, you belong there.
Overwatch embraced "wokeness" and was successful.
Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey had a diverse, non white, non straight cast.
All successful.
It should be, get woke go rich, because it's the truth. You chan dwellers are a relic from the past.
The problem within MKXI lies in the excessive MTX, nothing else. Actually, it's kinda ridiculous that the female designs worry you people more than abusive MTX.
What a minute here do you people think that "wokeness" to me is anything that isn't White and hetereosexual? I have nothing against representation and diversity. It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. There is a reason why people like Miles Morales but hate Riri Williams even though they're both Black people taking the mantle of their previously White predecessors. Speaking of comics @Jag85: do you know what comics are driving the growth of the industry to go back up after it's 10% drop from last year? Because I'm seeing "woke" comics being discontinued and having low sales. The closest thing to a "woke" comic being in top 10/20 sales that I'm aware of is The Walking Dead series.
Overwatch got so "woke" that the LGBT community is pissed at how they made Soldier 76 gay. The okay hand gesture is now seen as a White supremacist symbol and is banned from the Overwatch League even though the okay hand symbol is in the game. 4Chan was able to successfully troll far leftist into believing crap like that so mocking them as a relic from the past that was still able to successfully trick them on such a large scale says more about the left than them. (Before you misinterpret this I have no problem at all with the diversity from Overwatch).
Crap like this is "wokeness" to me
"It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. "
So who gets to decide what is and isn't just being done to sell to consumers? To one person, Black Panther is a genuine work that includes diversity. To some angry incel it's created just to make money.
Then again, what's wrong with it being both?
It's almost like we can't win. We get diversity and you claim its fake or forced. So then we should get nothing? Or worse, we can only get WHITE APPROVED diversity? It's no surprise to me that in a desperate final grasp at power they now want to control the very thing they lost control of.
Why is bat woman crap? She's in the comics, that is the way she is. What about it to you makes it crap? Is it not white approved? Too bold? Needs more token characters to make you comfortable?
@mojito1988 said:
I say give the fans what they want. If they want oversexualized females in the game go for it. Lowering it to please people who are not really gonna buy the game anyway seems pointless. This kind of reminds me how Nintendo made Solid Snakes ass smaller in the new Smash brothers game. Almost ruined the entire game for me. Unacceptable. Snake in Brawl did squats, snake in Ultimate......THAT IS NOT SNAKE!!!
Almost ruined the entire game for you? You must be just making funnies on the internet.
Also, MK11 is selling great so I don't think the new designs are hurting them at all.
@Jag85 said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@fedor said:
@Bread_or_Decide: A pansexual black dude is not old school hollywood. The large majority of people knew Rock is Samoan (and black) from his wwe days. They made it pretty clear for everyone. I also fail to see how CM is considered a diverse film with a blonde caucasian woman as its lead yet Alita with a poc lead is not even if it's "coded" caucasian.
I never said Captain Marvel was a diverse film.
But it did appeal to women with its message of female empowerment.
Alita was a movie aimed at the absolute worst box office audience (money wise) boys. It starred a girl but only appealed to boys, thus the tepid box office performance. It's almost a fake out, a movie pretending to appeal to girls that really only appeals to boys. And if you don't think it's a boy movie in disguise, see also how the film treats the romance. (Girls worships boys, literally gives him her robotic heart, and then the ending which i won't spoil here)
A token black guy is not diversity. And they always sold Rock as white, nobody even knew his heritage until he made it known, esp for the actual characters he plays now. Diversity is giving a diverse person an actual role in the film, not just being the side kick of the white guy. Here's a good litmus test, if you don't find yourself getting upset over the character, chances are it's a typical hollywood token use of people of other cultures.
Meanwhile, if a black storm trooper upsets you, then it's good diversity. Because it's not a role that makes people comfortable or that they're use to. Real diversity breaks down those barriers. It's purpose is to push hard against norms so that one day the norm will be diversity and nobody will even notice anymore.
So much wrong with this post...
Firstly, let's compare the cast and crew of Alita and Captain Marvel:
- Captain Marvel - White male/female directors, white male/female writers, white female lead, black male sidekick
- Alita - Latino director, white male/female writers, Asian author, Latina female lead, Latino male sidekick, badass black antagonist
Clearly, Alita completely annihilates Captain Marvel in the diversity department.
And since you made an unsubstantiated claim about the target audiences, let's actually compare their actual opening audience demographics:
- Captain Marvel - 55% male, 45% female, 47% White, 21% Hispanic, 16% African-American, 12% Asian
- Alita - 60% male, 40% female, 44% White, 21% Hispanic, 15% Asian American, 14% African-American
There's barely much difference between the two. The audiences for Alita were just as diverse as Captain Marvel's audiences.
However you spin it, Alita is a far more diverse movie than Captain Marvel. The fact that so many white liberals hype-up Captain Marvel while putting-down Alita just reeks of oblivious white privilege, ironically. Latinas get far less representation than white women, yet white liberals are too busy hyping-up yet another movie about a white woman while trying to tear down a rare big-budget flick featuring a kickass Latina lead.
As for The Rock, I'm not sure where you were in his WWF days (which is what made him famous in the first place), but most of the world knew he was black and/or Samoan. When I was growing up, I never knew a single kid who thought The Rock was white. You'd have to be colour-blind to think he "looks" white. It's also worth noting that, for many of the non-white kids watching WWF, The Rock was a hero to them. Up until The Rock came along, WWF was dominated by white guys. And then The Rock came along, and opened doors for non-white WWF superstars.
EDIT:
I actually agree with your general point that diversity sells. But some of the arguments you're using to try make this point (e.g. by downplaying Alita's diversity, and claiming that The Rock somehow looks "white") only hurts your argument rather than helping it. You'd have a more effective argument if you did the opposite, using Alita and The Rock as examples of why diversity sells, not the other way around.
Well to be fair I did start out by saying CM is not a diverse film.
And Alita is more diverse, but suffers from the "default white" syndrome. If it looks white we just assume its white. So it doesn't get any initial credit for its diversity. And being a Latinx I'm all for seeing us dominate a film like Alita both in front of and behind the camera. But Alita is a very flawed and frustrating film experience for me so I don't care about the diversity when the film itself is subpar and below average. Captain Marvel is a far more well rounded film than Alita.
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome said:
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome: Well then why do you care how fictional women dress?
Coz I can suspend disbelief.
But you're here on a forum lamenting the fact fictional girls are wearing more clothes than they used to. Clearly this matters to you on some level. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
U didn't get my point. I can suspend disbelief that what's happening on screen is unrealistic coz it's Fiction.
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@NoodleFighter said:
@calvincfb said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
And films with less diversity tend to do OKAY to average. Shazam, Alita, Solo.
I mean if you want your movie to perform in the average realm...make it less diverse. It's almost like the world is a beautiful mix of so many cultulres and all those people love to see themselves in the movies they watch. Weird.
LMAO, @NoodleFighter is completely out of touch with reality. Black Panther, Coco, Moana, all with a cast of NON WHITE people were successful. If anything, "wokeness" made things more accessible. Diversity sells. Go back to your chans, you belong there.
Overwatch embraced "wokeness" and was successful.
Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey had a diverse, non white, non straight cast.
All successful.
It should be, get woke go rich, because it's the truth. You chan dwellers are a relic from the past.
The problem within MKXI lies in the excessive MTX, nothing else. Actually, it's kinda ridiculous that the female designs worry you people more than abusive MTX.
What a minute here do you people think that "wokeness" to me is anything that isn't White and hetereosexual? I have nothing against representation and diversity. It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. There is a reason why people like Miles Morales but hate Riri Williams even though they're both Black people taking the mantle of their previously White predecessors. Speaking of comics @Jag85: do you know what comics are driving the growth of the industry to go back up after it's 10% drop from last year? Because I'm seeing "woke" comics being discontinued and having low sales. The closest thing to a "woke" comic being in top 10/20 sales that I'm aware of is The Walking Dead series.
Overwatch got so "woke" that the LGBT community is pissed at how they made Soldier 76 gay. The okay hand gesture is now seen as a White supremacist symbol and is banned from the Overwatch League even though the okay hand symbol is in the game. 4Chan was able to successfully troll far leftist into believing crap like that so mocking them as a relic from the past that was still able to successfully trick them on such a large scale says more about the left than them. (Before you misinterpret this I have no problem at all with the diversity from Overwatch).
Crap like this is "wokeness" to me
"It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. "
So who gets to decide what is and isn't just being done to sell to consumers? To one person, Black Panther is a genuine work that includes diversity. To some angry incel it's created just to make money.
Then again, what's wrong with it being both?
It's almost like we can't win. We get diversity and you claim its fake or forced. So then we should get nothing? Or worse, we can only get WHITE APPROVED diversity? It's no surprise to me that in a desperate final grasp at power they now want to control the very thing they lost control of.
Why is bat woman crap? She's in the comics, that is the way she is. What about it to you makes it crap? Is it not white approved? Too bold? Needs more token characters to make you comfortable?
He's spinning this hard to prove a point and it ultimately failed. He should stay to his chans.
And that part about Soldier 76 is a blatantly lie, LGBT aren't angry about that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2019/01/08/yes-overwatch-making-both-soldier-76-and-tracer-gay-is-a-big-deal/#41c4ac2b7008
https://www.businessinsider.com/soldier-76-gay-queer-overwatch-2019-1
Completely false allegation by @NoodleFighter.
You know what actually feels forced? Putting women half naked to fight to death. This feels forced and it's pandering. They can keep this crap out of my games.
@calvincfb said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@NoodleFighter said:
@calvincfb said:
LMAO, @NoodleFighter is completely out of touch with reality. Black Panther, Coco, Moana, all with a cast of NON WHITE people were successful. If anything, "wokeness" made things more accessible. Diversity sells. Go back to your chans, you belong there.
Overwatch embraced "wokeness" and was successful.
Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey had a diverse, non white, non straight cast.
All successful.
It should be, get woke go rich, because it's the truth. You chan dwellers are a relic from the past.
The problem within MKXI lies in the excessive MTX, nothing else. Actually, it's kinda ridiculous that the female designs worry you people more than abusive MTX.
What a minute here do you people think that "wokeness" to me is anything that isn't White and hetereosexual? I have nothing against representation and diversity. It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. There is a reason why people like Miles Morales but hate Riri Williams even though they're both Black people taking the mantle of their previously White predecessors. Speaking of comics @Jag85: do you know what comics are driving the growth of the industry to go back up after it's 10% drop from last year? Because I'm seeing "woke" comics being discontinued and having low sales. The closest thing to a "woke" comic being in top 10/20 sales that I'm aware of is The Walking Dead series.
Overwatch got so "woke" that the LGBT community is pissed at how they made Soldier 76 gay. The okay hand gesture is now seen as a White supremacist symbol and is banned from the Overwatch League even though the okay hand symbol is in the game. 4Chan was able to successfully troll far leftist into believing crap like that so mocking them as a relic from the past that was still able to successfully trick them on such a large scale says more about the left than them. (Before you misinterpret this I have no problem at all with the diversity from Overwatch).
Crap like this is "wokeness" to me
"It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. "
So who gets to decide what is and isn't just being done to sell to consumers? To one person, Black Panther is a genuine work that includes diversity. To some angry incel it's created just to make money.
Then again, what's wrong with it being both?
It's almost like we can't win. We get diversity and you claim its fake or forced. So then we should get nothing? Or worse, we can only get WHITE APPROVED diversity? It's no surprise to me that in a desperate final grasp at power they now want to control the very thing they lost control of.
Why is bat woman crap? She's in the comics, that is the way she is. What about it to you makes it crap? Is it not white approved? Too bold? Needs more token characters to make you comfortable?
He's spinning this hard to prove a point and it ultimately failed. He should stay to his chans.
And that part about Soldier 76 is a blatantly lie, LGBT aren't angry about that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2019/01/08/yes-overwatch-making-both-soldier-76-and-tracer-gay-is-a-big-deal/#41c4ac2b7008
https://www.businessinsider.com/soldier-76-gay-queer-overwatch-2019-1
Completely false allegation by @NoodleFighter.
You know what actually feels forced? Putting women half naked to fight to death. This feels forced and it's pandering. They can keep this crap out of my games.
It appears you're the minority.
U are putting Fiction with Realism and they don't go together coz Fiction is unrealistic so what's happening on screen can be unrealistic.
@calvincfb said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@NoodleFighter said:
@calvincfb said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
And films with less diversity tend to do OKAY to average. Shazam, Alita, Solo.
I mean if you want your movie to perform in the average realm...make it less diverse. It's almost like the world is a beautiful mix of so many cultulres and all those people love to see themselves in the movies they watch. Weird.
LMAO, @NoodleFighter is completely out of touch with reality. Black Panther, Coco, Moana, all with a cast of NON WHITE people were successful. If anything, "wokeness" made things more accessible. Diversity sells. Go back to your chans, you belong there.
Overwatch embraced "wokeness" and was successful.
Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey had a diverse, non white, non straight cast.
All successful.
It should be, get woke go rich, because it's the truth. You chan dwellers are a relic from the past.
The problem within MKXI lies in the excessive MTX, nothing else. Actually, it's kinda ridiculous that the female designs worry you people more than abusive MTX.
What a minute here do you people think that "wokeness" to me is anything that isn't White and hetereosexual? I have nothing against representation and diversity. It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. There is a reason why people like Miles Morales but hate Riri Williams even though they're both Black people taking the mantle of their previously White predecessors. Speaking of comics @Jag85: do you know what comics are driving the growth of the industry to go back up after it's 10% drop from last year? Because I'm seeing "woke" comics being discontinued and having low sales. The closest thing to a "woke" comic being in top 10/20 sales that I'm aware of is The Walking Dead series.
Overwatch got so "woke" that the LGBT community is pissed at how they made Soldier 76 gay. The okay hand gesture is now seen as a White supremacist symbol and is banned from the Overwatch League even though the okay hand symbol is in the game. 4Chan was able to successfully troll far leftist into believing crap like that so mocking them as a relic from the past that was still able to successfully trick them on such a large scale says more about the left than them. (Before you misinterpret this I have no problem at all with the diversity from Overwatch).
Crap like this is "wokeness" to me
"It is when companies use it as a commodity to win brownie points which as result you get half assed content because they think just being diverse is good enough to sell. "
So who gets to decide what is and isn't just being done to sell to consumers? To one person, Black Panther is a genuine work that includes diversity. To some angry incel it's created just to make money.
Then again, what's wrong with it being both?
It's almost like we can't win. We get diversity and you claim its fake or forced. So then we should get nothing? Or worse, we can only get WHITE APPROVED diversity? It's no surprise to me that in a desperate final grasp at power they now want to control the very thing they lost control of.
Why is bat woman crap? She's in the comics, that is the way she is. What about it to you makes it crap? Is it not white approved? Too bold? Needs more token characters to make you comfortable?
He's spinning this hard to prove a point and it ultimately failed. He should stay to his chans.
And that part about Soldier 76 is a blatantly lie, LGBT aren't angry about that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2019/01/08/yes-overwatch-making-both-soldier-76-and-tracer-gay-is-a-big-deal/#41c4ac2b7008
https://www.businessinsider.com/soldier-76-gay-queer-overwatch-2019-1
Completely false allegation by @NoodleFighter.
You know what actually feels forced? Putting women half naked to fight to death. This feels forced and it's pandering. They can keep this crap out of my games.
If the decision comes from the creatives then I have no complaints. I love how gamers BEGGED to be taken seriously all these years. For people to see it as an art form.
Well, this is what being taken seriously looks and feels like. It means the boys club is over.
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: it seems you're actually a vocal minority. Most people don't care about this since the real problem is the mtx.
The majority of ppl that care about female costumes agrees this is an issue.
We won on the polls HERE and on Gamefaqs.
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Jag85 said:
So much wrong with this post...
Firstly, let's compare the cast and crew of Alita and Captain Marvel:
- Captain Marvel - White male/female directors, white male/female writers, white female lead, black male sidekick
- Alita - Latino director, white male/female writers, Asian author, Latina female lead, Latino male sidekick, badass black antagonist
Clearly, Alita completely annihilates Captain Marvel in the diversity department.
And since you made an unsubstantiated claim about the target audiences, let's actually compare their actual opening audience demographics:
- Captain Marvel - 55% male, 45% female, 47% White, 21% Hispanic, 16% African-American, 12% Asian
- Alita - 60% male, 40% female, 44% White, 21% Hispanic, 15% Asian American, 14% African-American
There's barely much difference between the two. The audiences for Alita were just as diverse as Captain Marvel's audiences.
However you spin it, Alita is a far more diverse movie than Captain Marvel. The fact that so many white liberals hype-up Captain Marvel while putting-down Alita just reeks of oblivious white privilege, ironically. Latinas get far less representation than white women, yet white liberals are too busy hyping-up yet another movie about a white woman while trying to tear down a rare big-budget flick featuring a kickass Latina lead.
As for The Rock, I'm not sure where you were in his WWF days (which is what made him famous in the first place), but most of the world knew he was black and/or Samoan. When I was growing up, I never knew a single kid who thought The Rock was white. You'd have to be colour-blind to think he "looks" white. It's also worth noting that, for many of the non-white kids watching WWF, The Rock was a hero to them. Up until The Rock came along, WWF was dominated by white guys. And then The Rock came along, and opened doors for non-white WWF superstars.
EDIT:
I actually agree with your general point that diversity sells. But some of the arguments you're using to try make this point (e.g. by downplaying Alita's diversity, and claiming that The Rock somehow looks "white") only hurts your argument rather than helping it. You'd have a more effective argument if you did the opposite, using Alita and The Rock as examples of why diversity sells, not the other way around.
Well to be fair I did start out by saying CM is not a diverse film.
And Alita is more diverse, but suffers from the "default white" syndrome. If it looks white we just assume its white. So it doesn't get any initial credit for its diversity. And being a Latinx I'm all for seeing us dominate a film like Alita both in front of and behind the camera. But Alita is a very flawed and frustrating film experience for me so I don't care about the diversity when the film itself is subpar and below average. Captain Marvel is a far more well rounded film than Alita.
Alita is not at all "default white" in any way. The fact that Alita had a lower % white turnout than Captain Marvel clearly shows that Captain Marvel appealed more to white audiences (especially white female audiences) than Alita did. However, in terms of Hispanic audiences, Alita had a similar % Hispanic turnout as Captain Marvel, indicating that Alita didn't appeal any more to Hispanic audiences than Captain Marvel did. So Alita isn't a "default white" or "default Hispanic" movie.
The audiences that Alita did appeal most to are Asians. Alita drew a higher % Asian turnout than Captain Marvel in the US. And over in China, Alita got much better reviews than Captain Marvel (e.g. on Chinese review sites like Douban and Maoyan), and Alita had better legs than Captain Marvel at the Chinese box office despite not being part of an established franchise. The audiences that Alita resonated most with weren't whites or Hispanics, but it's Asians, despite the movie having a mostly non-Asian cast... in contrast to Crazy Rich Asians, which had a mostly Asian cast yet flopped in most of Asia.
If anything, Alita is a "default Asian" film, based on Japanese source material and with heavily manga-inspired character design. That's why it didn't do so well in America (where Asian cinema has always struggled at the box office), yet did great box office in Asia... except for Japan, but that's a whole other story (Hollywood movies based on Japanese IPs almost always flop in Japan).
@mkxchrome said:
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: it seems you're actually a vocal minority. Most people don't care about this since the real problem is the mtx.
The majority of ppl that care about female costumes agrees this is an issue.
We won on the polls HERE and on Gamefaqs.
Majority of people who care about this are a vocal minority. Forum dwellers are the minority of those games userbase.
Give up, it's not going to happen.
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome said:
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: it seems you're actually a vocal minority. Most people don't care about this since the real problem is the mtx.
The majority of ppl that care about female costumes agrees this is an issue.
We won on the polls HERE and on Gamefaqs.
Majority of people who care about this are a vocal minority. Forum dwellers are the minority of those games userbase.
Give up, it's not going to happen.
@kali-b1rd said:
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: it seems you're actually a vocal minority. Most people don't care about this since the real problem is the mtx.
How can you even evidence that they are the vocal minority?
You're the minority HERE and on Gamefaqs based on Polls, I wasn't speaking on entire fanbase.
It should be the developer and publishers decision solely with their creative direction. I daresay, the reaction to MK11 not having skimpy outfits is equally bad to the censorship for scanty gear in other games.
This is the direction they took with their game, and if censorship is the real issue, then that decision should be supported just as much as any other game.
@mkxchrome said:
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome said:
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome: Well then why do you care how fictional women dress?
Coz I can suspend disbelief.
But you're here on a forum lamenting the fact fictional girls are wearing more clothes than they used to. Clearly this matters to you on some level. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
U didn't get my point. I can suspend disbelief that what's happening on screen is unrealistic coz it's Fiction.
I think anyone who enjoys a game about a scrappy band of heroes saving the Nine Realms from evil demons by competing in a martial arts tournament, is pretty good at suspending disbelief. But hey, you think that already outlandish concept is improved if the women involved have their tits out, so I guess you are better at it than I am. Congrats.
But if you are going to mock people for being upset about women dressed in provocative attire, you can't get upset about women dressed in conservative (relatively anyway) attire. It's the same thing, just from another angle.
And before this context gets lost in the shuffle here, let me reiterate that I would be playing Mortal Kombat no matter how the characters where dressed because I think the games are fun.
@Shewgenja: Agreed. Regardless of how much or how little clothing, that's up to the developers to decide. A bunch of people complaining on forums (whether it's SJWs or alt-right) shouldn't influence their decisions, but what should influence them is how much it sells.
@mkxchrome said:
U are putting Fiction with Realism and they don't go together coz Fiction is unrealistic so what's happening on screen can be unrealistic.
Could you please stop that nonsense? It's pretty obvious that you don't even understand what fiction is. Or realism. Or both. The claim that fiction can't be realistic is beyond stupid. Let's take uh... I don't know... John Wick. Probably not the best example but it's the last thing I've seen and I can't think of anything else right now. Maybe you're not too stupid to get the point.
When you shoot John Wick he bleeds. Because that's what people do. It's realistic. It's not a true story. It never really happened. It's fiction. Realistic fiction.
Why doesn't John Wick shoot laser beams out of his ass? Because that would be unrealistc.
Like I said, John Wick is probably not the best example because not everything is super realistic but I couldn't think of a political thriller or something. One that is a work of fiction but still realistic because nothing physically impossible happens.
@nethernova said:
@mkxchrome said:
U are putting Fiction with Realism and they don't go together coz Fiction is unrealistic so what's happening on screen can be unrealistic.
Could you please stop that nonsense? It's pretty obvious that you don't even understand what fiction is. Or realism. Or both. The claim that fiction can't be realistic is beyond stupid. Let's take uh... I don't know... John Wick. Probably not the best example but it's the last thing I've seen and I can't think of anything else right now. Maybe you're not too stupid to get the point.
When you shoot John Wick he bleeds. Because that's what people do. It's realistic. It's not a true story. It never really happened. It's fiction. Realistic fiction.
Why doesn't John Wick shoot laser beams out of his ass? Because that would be unrealistc.
Like I said, John Wick is probably not the best example because not everything is super realistic but I couldn't think of a political thriller or something. One that is a work of fiction but still realistic because nothing physically impossible happens.
MK's story is Sci-Fi, it's not realistic. They go back in time lol.
@Pedro said:
@AdobeArtist: I don't see how this topic is about "free expression in games" when the game developer has already created their expression to which a select few don't like because it doesn't reflect their expression.
Also why is personal attacks acceptable for everyone else except mods? Shouldn't it be a rule across the board? I say this because its absolutely rampant in this forum and can be found in almost every thread. Its odd that its now a problem.
Gamespot was moderated better back in day (Generation 7). Some of the mods were very aggressive & overzealous about modding, flagging and banning users. Always look at the MEMBER SINCE dates of the current trouble makers. Chances are they are using an alt account or a new one after being banned.
@mkxchrome said:
@nethernova said:
Could you please stop that nonsense? It's pretty obvious that you don't even understand what fiction is. Or realism. Or both. The claim that fiction can't be realistic is beyond stupid. Let's take uh... I don't know... John Wick. Probably not the best example but it's the last thing I've seen and I can't think of anything else right now. Maybe you're not too stupid to get the point.
When you shoot John Wick he bleeds. Because that's what people do. It's realistic. It's not a true story. It never really happened. It's fiction. Realistic fiction.
Why doesn't John Wick shoot laser beams out of his ass? Because that would be unrealistc.
Like I said, John Wick is probably not the best example because not everything is super realistic but I couldn't think of a political thriller or something. One that is a work of fiction but still realistic because nothing physically impossible happens.
MK's story is Sci-Fi, it's not realistic. They go back in time lol.
I hate to be one of THOSE people, but I think MK is more "Science-Fantasy". Like OTHER fighting games (Street Fighter, Tekken) and fighting anime (Dragon Ball).
@nintendoboy16 said:
@mkxchrome said:
@nethernova said:
Could you please stop that nonsense? It's pretty obvious that you don't even understand what fiction is. Or realism. Or both. The claim that fiction can't be realistic is beyond stupid. Let's take uh... I don't know... John Wick. Probably not the best example but it's the last thing I've seen and I can't think of anything else right now. Maybe you're not too stupid to get the point.
When you shoot John Wick he bleeds. Because that's what people do. It's realistic. It's not a true story. It never really happened. It's fiction. Realistic fiction.
Why doesn't John Wick shoot laser beams out of his ass? Because that would be unrealistc.
Like I said, John Wick is probably not the best example because not everything is super realistic but I couldn't think of a political thriller or something. One that is a work of fiction but still realistic because nothing physically impossible happens.
MK's story is Sci-Fi, it's not realistic. They go back in time lol.
I hate to be one of THOSE people, but I think MK is more "Science-Fantasy". Like OTHER fighting games (Street Fighter, Tekken) and fighting anime (Dragon Ball).
You're right, it's Fantasy (Wikipedia says it's horror-fantasy). Either way, it's got nothing to do with Realism and they couldn't be further apart from one another.
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: and the creators of that fictional world chose to make women fight with adequate garments.
You should stop imposing your will on the developers.
Grow up.
Tell that to the ppl who were complaining about NRS white-washing Tanya in MKX. Tell that to the ppl who were demanding Tremor in MKX which led to him getting in.
NRS is a Business, they are making products to sell to the consumer (us), I am not a sheeple like u who would accept whatever a company does, take it or leave it and not question it is not how I roll.
@fedor said:
@Coolyfett: Only unattractive people are complaining about sexualized characters in media.
Not sure i'd agree with that.
I do think the women should be respectable as base characters, so that competitions can just have the base outfits to keep things classy. But the devs should still allow you to unlock clothes and/or buy them via DLC, that put them in classic outfits and more skimpy outfits.
It's like I say about Tomb Raider, I love all her tactical gear but I also hate they basically tossed out a lifetime of standards to be woke. On a 2nd playthrough, I rather run around in a wedding dress or 2B's outfit, you know the type of stuff you use to unlock from beating a game (Capcom knows), and not just be the Season Pass clothes set, which in SotTR's case, were weak sauce. Rather than put new Lara in her old outfit, they put the PS1 version of Lara in the game, which I thought was really lame.
@fedor: Went abit overboard with the smudge tool on the bottom lip.
Gotta love the "Fiction can be realistic too guys!" crowd in defence of de-sexualisation.
You were the same people shouting SEXIST/RACIST to the people that thought realism was important in a WW2 shooter (BF5) when they raised the issue that it wasn't realistic to have half your army in D-Day as woman.
Hey-ho , the far-left hypocrits are out again.
Don't forget to collect your virtue-signalling badges kids, if you get enough "nice guy points" a woman may sleep with you.
@Jag85 said:
@Shewgenja: Agreed. Regardless of how much or how little clothing, that's up to the developers to decide. A bunch of people complaining on forums (whether it's SJWs or alt-right) shouldn't influence their decisions, but what should influence them is how much it sells.
But their perception of sales factors in political issues very often.
@kali-b1rd: Something people don't consider. Mortal Kombat made a name for itself on the merit of the over-the-top violence. Why would they want to fight on two fronts? Mortal Kombat isnt even known for being sexy. That's DOAs wheelhouse entirely.
It's an entirely rational and understandable position for Netherealm to take when it comes to pulling the dials on their franchise. They did keep it violent, right?
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: I'm not having a conversation with those people, but with you, stop deflecting. You're trying to impose your will like a dictator.
It's not happening.
I'm not a sheeple like u in that whatever NRS does, I should accept like a 'Yes man'. NRS are making a product (MK) to sell to consumer (us), we get to demand about what we want to see, that's our rights. Same way ppl demand to see certain Characters. I am not saying for NRS to change their work. I am saying give us revealing and skimpy alternate costumes. That way both sides win coz there'll be VARIETY. Revealing and skimpy costumes as well as covered up costumes.
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome said:
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome said:
@judaspete said:
@mkxchrome: Well then why do you care how fictional women dress?
Coz I can suspend disbelief.
But you're here on a forum lamenting the fact fictional girls are wearing more clothes than they used to. Clearly this matters to you on some level. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
U didn't get my point. I can suspend disbelief that what's happening on screen is unrealistic coz it's Fiction.
I think anyone who enjoys a game about a scrappy band of heroes saving the Nine Realms from evil demons by competing in a martial arts tournament, is pretty good at suspending disbelief. But hey, you think that already outlandish concept is improved if the women involved have their tits out, so I guess you are better at it than I am. Congrats.
But if you are going to mock people for being upset about women dressed in provocative attire, you can't get upset about women dressed in conservative (relatively anyway) attire. It's the same thing, just from another angle.
And before this context gets lost in the shuffle here, let me reiterate that I would be playing Mortal Kombat no matter how the characters where dressed because I think the games are fun.
Hey again, I was just reading back over our conversation and wanted to clarify something. In my first post I said Jade with battle damage was a bit to close to snuff, and I realize that came off a bit insulting. I didn't mean to insinuate that anyone who prefers the MK9 outfits is some kind of perv that I look down on. Hopefully you didn't take it that way. I try to keep my comments short because people tend to stop reading if you write too much, but sometimes paring down my thoughts like this causes them to loose context and come out different than I intended.
Anyhow, I'm sorry Mortal Kombat visually is going in a direction that you don't like, but hope you are still having fun with the games despite the change.
@Shewgenja said:
@kali-b1rd: Something people don't consider. Mortal Kombat made a name for itself on the merit of the over-the-top violence. Why would they want to fight on two fronts? Mortal Kombat isnt even known for being sexy. That's DOAs wheelhouse entirely.
It's an entirely rational and understandable position for Netherealm to take when it comes to pulling the dials on their franchise. They did keep it violent, right?
I don't see why they need to be conservative in any direction. Its a common phase at the moment.
I'd be happier if they sexualised both sexes and gave it as optional armour. Hell, add a setting where people who dont like it won't see that skin....
give options, don't censor.
Resi Evil 2 did it right.
I don't care if the outfits are skimpy the design just has to make sense. With every street fighter release there is always a mod for bikini or nude Chun Li and Cammy skins so knock yourselves out I guess. I just don't see the appeal in it, we have access to a barns worth of porn at the moments notice, do I really need to see nude Chun Li? What would you think of your friend if they booted up Street Fighter and started playing with nude Chun? My opinion of them would drop drastically
@saltslasher said:
I do think the women should be respectable as base characters, so that competitions can just have the base outfits to keep things classy. But the devs should still allow you to unlock clothes and/or buy them via DLC, that put them in classic outfits and more skimpy outfits.
It's like I say about Tomb Raider, I love all her tactical gear but I also hate they basically tossed out a lifetime of standards to be woke. On a 2nd playthrough, I rather run around in a wedding dress or 2B's outfit, you know the type of stuff you use to unlock from beating a game (Capcom knows), and not just be the Season Pass clothes set, which in SotTR's case, were weak sauce. Rather than put new Lara in her old outfit, they put the PS1 version of Lara in the game, which I thought was really lame.
Tomb Raider looked stupid as hell for years and its not some badge of honor to NOT change her; the devs then were likely all white males. The more diversity on staff the more dumb stuff like that gets axed and adjusted, Laura Croft looks way better today.
The question in the poll is here SHOULD MK11 have skimpy outfits?
The answer is No.
In reality it really doesn't matter, but the definitive statement that it SHOULD have them comes across and creepy and desperate.
@mkxchrome said:
@calvincfb said:
@mkxchrome: I'm not having a conversation with those people, but with you, stop deflecting. You're trying to impose your will like a dictator.
It's not happening.
I'm not a sheeple like u in that whatever NRS does, I should accept like a 'Yes man'. NRS are making a product (MK) to sell to consumer (us), we get to demand about what we want to see, that's our rights. Same way ppl demand to see certain Characters. I am not saying for NRS to change their work. I am saying give us revealing and skimpy alternate costumes. That way both sides win coz there'll be VARIETY. Revealing and skimpy costumes as well as covered up costumes.
Yes, you should, you either buy it and accept it or you shut up.
Stop acting like the entitled whiny kid you are.
Stop trying to impose your will on other's products.
This is not going to change.
Grow up.
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