SNES is the greatest console of all time.

PC included, it's got a great library regardless. I didn't avoid PC gaming last generation for no reason, but that's a different discussion. This gen i'll be using it more though.

---

I mean yeah, if we're talking about the mainstream people rate 360 highly, but on places like this many people don't give it any credit, I remember before current consoles were out, i'd hear on this site - if you have a PC it's useless and PS3 has way more exclusives yada yada yada....

But I think, 10 years from now, people on boards like this may look back and consider it a great console. Time will tell.

Anywho, I plan to be using mine in 10 years! :P

Agreed on games aging.

Bayonetta, I haven't had much experience with the Wii U version, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was something wrong with it. Only thing I noticed besides worse colors was the gamepad controller interface popping up even if you were using the Pro, but it goes without saying it's better than the Ps3 version by default.

When I play it it's on 360 though, yeah.

Yeah, spread the 7th gen love!

6th gen was fantastic as well though, their problems are more visual than design (and they don't have many problems there), but having the right set up helps a ton.

I disagree. I consider The Last Of Us one of the finest games of last generation, but I won't say it comes close to Super Metroid because a good game is a good game no matter when it's released. And Super Metroid does shit that TLOU doesn't begin to.

In other words, your argument boils down to Seinfeld is Unfunny, e.g. Seinfeld, The Beatles and Star Wars have all aged badly, therefore they must have always sucked. That's an irrational argument. But sure, you're free to hold whatever opinion you wish.

I'm surprised you guys excluded Ocarina of Time though, because that game has aged very well.

Still have my SNES hooked up today! Of course, my PS2 is still hooked up to that same TV. I don't know if I'll ever be able to choose one over the other. They are both fantastic systems.

To me, a game aging bad is for a game that was considered fantastic back in the day, but doesn't hold up to others now. Granted for me, some badly aged ones I can still play (GE, PD, SSB1), others... well (looks at Metroid, Star Fox/Starwing, TR Core, SoulBlade/Edge, Civ I).

Seinfeld has plenty of episodes that are still funny, The Beatles are fantastic music, and Star Wars Episode 4 and 5? Still very entertaining flicks. So that shit argument doesn't fly. It was an entire era of poorly designed games going through the growing pains of 3D sandwiched between the peak of 2D game design and a vastly superior generation for 3D games in gen 6. Was it an exciting time period? Sure, but the way those games have aged vs how the games of gen 3-4, and 6 have aged is not even close.

But sure Ocarina is still mostly fine, I would argue a lot of its praise beyond its landmark status is a bit unwarranted. That combat was pretty unimpressive even for that era, and some of the puzzle designs in that game are straight lazy. Truly excellent work doesn't age, in any medium, including this one.

Even to this date the PS3 is still getting exclusives like Tales of Series, Guilty Gear Xrd, Persona 5, Yakuza 5 while both, the Wii and X360, are long dead. The X360 will be remembered as the multiplat machine with godawful reliability that later on went full Kinect to surprise butteck its entire audience. ;)

2 of those are on Ps4 and tales is shit these days, Vesperia's the best. Yakuza 5, yeah that's great, sucks it's digital only though :/

But if you want to count multiplats, 360 is getting tomb raider while ps3 isn't ever getting it :O

Also, Wii's getting rodea and the sky soldier :)

Yeah, Ocarina is still playable for sure, but like Champ said, a lot of its design is pretty lazy and or just bad like the water temple. Majora is a more polished, interesting game.

But sure we can add Ocarina.

They aren't even the same are they? Isn't Metroid Prime Trilogy a better comparison to Super Metroid?

My point was, one of the best games of gen 7 isn't as clear cut superior to anything prior to it. If a game is good, a game is good. You said that standards keep getting better and that's not true. Games are just bigger now.

Na...the first Xbox or Genesis for me.

Ah, but we're only expressing our opinions. And I said "I think the Xbox 360 and PS3 are the best". There is no factual answer to any of this.

Imo Super Metroid isn't even the best, because there is way too much competition. 2D games don't age. There are NES and GameBoy games I'd personally play over the vast majority of SNES games. I'll still play the Game and Watch Gallery series on the Game Boy and I think Super Mario Bros is a definition of a gaming master piece, because despite the graphics which somehow still work for it and have become so iconic, the gameplay is still perfect on such limited hardware. I still play different variations of Street Fighter 2.

With 3D games, I think what I said was true. For the first time ever, current gen games don't make most last gen games look or feel old. A large proportion of past 3D games show their age in graphics, physics and AI quite soon into a new generation.

With the evidence you gave, its hard to argue against it. The SNES was just pure and utter joy.

You make it sound like most episodes of Seinfeld are indeed unfunny, and that Return of the Jedi isn't entertaining. The Beatles were fantastic for their time, but merely mediocre by today's rock music standards. These classics have all aged, with many of Seinfeld's jokes falling flat, a lot of Star Wars looking cliched and cheesy today (from the special effects, to the "I am your father" plot twist, to the JRPG-style cliches), and The Beatles sounding tame and dated compared to later rock music. Even Citizen Kane, the so-called 'greatest movie of all time', has become dated. And in literature, a lot of Shakespeare's stories have aged pretty badly, especially Romeo & Juliet. Many great classics will always show their age, so it's unrealistic to expect classics not to age. Video games are no exception.

Ocarina's combat was very impressive for its era. Its Z-targeting combat system was very original and added a whole new element to 3D action combat, evident in countless action-adventures, action RPGs and hack & slash brawlers since then. Its puzzle designs range from the lazy to the clever, but even its lazy puzzles provide more challenge than most of today's video games where puzzle designs are almost non-existent. In that sense, Ocarina has aged pretty damn well, since its puzzle designs still beat the crap out of most of today's games.

Snes>360>>>ps2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else

This is a known fact

Easily my favorite RPG franchise.. well, the first 3 at least.. sigh. If an actual sequel to the first 3 ever arises I will be first in line. I would throw down some serious money for a kickstarted reboot as well.

As far as consoles go, you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise. It was an epic console. You didn't even cover the hugely fun sports games available. Madden 94 anyone?

SNES definitely had most of my favorite games. Killer Instinct, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Link to The Past, Shadowrun. the list goes on forever.

of course it's hard now to compare what was available at the time versus what we've seen since.

Yeah 4 was uh... 4.

Sorry, but still having to give it to the PS2, and thats comming from someone that started on the NES.

Well I disagree. Citizen Kane is still a damn good flick because that story, that acting, and that characters development from start to finish is still potent. Likewise modern rock bands might have performers with a more advanced skill set with the instruments hell they may even make more complex music, but the Beattles music is fantastic to this day. It's not only reflective of its era, but legit entertaining on its own right. I don't see how it being tame makes it inferior to anything. Truly great art and entertainment doesn't age. And Star Wars was cliche and cheesy the day it came out (better effects for the time), it wasn't like there weren't well done dramas around its time period. Star Wars is a classic summer blockbuster type flick built on good ol fashioned good vs evil. And yeah Shakespeare aged so poorly they still teach his shit in school, there are still plot lines in the modern era using his stories as their back drop between Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, or Hamlet?

There is a difference between your work being used and abused as a template, and out right not holding up. My disagreement with gen 5, is that a lot of that generations best shit does not hold. It's not that it's good, but no longer great. It's that it is poor. So again your lame attempt to pigeon hole my shit into a tv trope label is fucking stupid.

Ocarina's combat is dull, yes I gave it credit for being ground breaking, z-targeting is basically lock on so I thank the game for that. But that doesn't change the part where the combat is this dull wait and attack thing where all the enemies are built around this consistent solution, don't hit hard enough, aren't aggressive enough, and makes the combat easy. A sentiment I felt when I was a child, much less feeling in March when I replayed the game. And bullshit, it's lazy puzzles don't stack up to Braid, don't stack up World of Goo, don't stack up to Antichmaber. Most is a shitty term, because most video games aren't good, that's the nature of the beast of most. Too many of Ocarina's puzzles are "look we're in 3D now, so go into first person mode and find this random switch on this soulless crevice on the wall" brand of puzzle design that is so beneath Nintendo, that's a shitty Valve move.

And yeah Ocarina is still a good game, but I would still argue it wasn't actually all that great. It was ground breaking for superficial stuff like how it looks and for the things that were new about the gameplay. The actual playing it part experience? Wasn't all that consistent, wouldn't have held strong against the best games of the previous generation, and hasn't held strong all these years later for me.

Regardless you like gen 5's shit, and I'm sure you have a much fonder response to Ocarina than I do. And I absolutely think you are on drugs for pretending Citizen Kane or the Beatles anything short of quality today.

@jg4xchamp- it's the lack of drugs.

but you're both out of touch to think your opinions are the end all of what is quality and what is not.

Well I disagree. Citizen Kane is still a damn good flick because that story, that acting, and that characters development from start to finish is still potent. Likewise modern rock bands might have performers with a more advanced skill set with the instruments hell they may even make more complex music, but the Beattles music is fantastic to this day. It's not only reflective of its era, but legit entertaining on its own right. I don't see how it being tame makes it inferior to anything. Truly great art and entertainment doesn't age. And Star Wars was cliche and cheesy the day it came out (better effects for the time), it wasn't like there weren't well done dramas around its time period. Star Wars is a classic summer blockbuster type flick built on good ol fashioned good vs evil. And yeah Shakespeare aged so poorly they still teach his shit in school, there are still plot lines in the modern era using his stories as their back drop between Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, or Hamlet?

Likewise, I disagree. I found Citizen Kane to have bad pacing issues and some dated acting, despite having a good story and character development. I also find a lot of Beatles music to be uninspired and uninteresting, despite some great classics here and there. The "I am your father" plot twist in The Empire Strikes Back wasn't cliche back then, but it shocked audiences because of its originality, yet the twist has since become so cliche that it's become a joke that can't be taken seriously anymore. Romeo & Juliet was incredible for its time, but by today's standards, it's cliche and unrealistic, with an uninspired shallow story and poor character development. Classics always age.

There is a difference between your work being used and abused as a template, and out right not holding up. My disagreement with gen 5, is that a lot of that generations best shit does not hold. It's not that it's good, but no longer great. It's that it is poor.

Both are directly related. The more your work gets used and abused, the more your work isn't going to hold up. The later works that used and abused your work are going to keep improving on what you've done, making your original work look primitive, pale or terrible in comparison to the later improved works. That's evolution. As far as gaming goes, Gen 5 is by far the most used and abused generation since the '90s, with Gen 6-8 games still ripping-off Gen 5 games to this day. Gen 5 was the trailblazer generation, but because it's been so ripped-off by later generations, of course it's not going to hold up so well compared to later generations.

Ocarina's combat is dull, yes I gave it credit for being ground breaking, z-targeting is basically lock on so I thank the game for that. But that doesn't change the part where the combat is this dull wait and attack thing where all the enemies are built around this consistent solution, don't hit hard enough, aren't aggressive enough, and makes the combat easy. A sentiment I felt when I was a child, much less feeling in March when I replayed the game. And bullshit, it's lazy puzzles don't stack up to Braid, don't stack up World of Goo, don't stack up to Antichmaber. Most is a shitty term, because most video games aren't good, that's the nature of the beast of most. Too many of Ocarina's puzzles are "look we're in 3D now, so go into first person mode and find this random switch on this soulless crevice on the wall" brand of puzzle design that is so beneath Nintendo, that's a shitty Valve move.

I barely even played Ocarina as a child, since I didn't own the N64, but waited until I got a GameCube before I played it properly, and I still enjoyed the hell out of the combat and the puzzles, which held up very well compared to Gen 6 games. Regardless of how challenging the combat is, or isn't, it's still pretty damn entertaining. As for the puzzles, it sounds like 3D puzzles in general just aren't your thing.

And yeah Ocarina is still a good game, but I would still argue it wasn't actually all that great. It was ground breaking for superficial stuff like how it looks and for the things that were new about the gameplay.

So innovative gameplay is what counts as "superficial" these days? Sure, let's just forget about innovation and keep playing the same kinds of games over and over again. Screw innovation.

Regardless you like gen 5's shit, and I'm sure you have a much fonder response to Ocarina than I do. And I absolutely think you are on drugs for pretending Citizen Kane or the Beatles anything short of quality today.

Ironically, you'd need to be on drugs to truly enjoy The Beatles to the fullest... since a lot of their music revolved around the drug-fuelled hippie and psychedelic movements.

Uh, no. The melodies in those songs are timeless. Even with better technology, most rock musicians can't manage that kind of quality.

Sure, the melodies are timeless, but the guitar work has aged pretty badly. The guitar work wasn't even that great for their own time, compared to blues-rock guitarists of the same era, like The Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, etc.

@GreySeal9:

Whoa. Sure my Witcher comments were in ways hyperbole, but also not, this thread? Citizen Kane doesn't hold up? Dated acting? The Beatles? Lol, where to start.

Not saying Citizen Kane and The Beatles are bad, but that they've aged in various ways... But I think I'll just stop there, before derailing the thread any further,

Yes, the Beatles weren't anything special in terms of technical skill but I don't think that really matters all that much in terms of how good songs are. Look at all these shit metal bands who have hugely talented musicians but can't write a good song to save their lives.

I can understand The Beatles comment by ways of them sounding like the era they were prominent in.

Well, that's the case with most legacy acts and even most newer acts with the exception of a few (like Madonna whose appeal depends on a chameleon-like changing of looks and sound and her hunger to remain relevant).

I'm not necessarily disagreeing. Sometimes it is the following acts that do it, other times it is the technology and engineers of the time.

Pink Floyd immediately comes to mind. Radiohead after The Bends. I think it is rather rare when a musical group is somehow able to completely disguise themselves from the surrounding musical scene.

I'm going to excuse this bullshit, because the error is on my part from how that sentence is worded. The superficial stuff was the things about how it looks the other stuff about the things it did new, weren't superficial. But again the bottom line is that games praise comes from at the time it looked pretty and had a sense of atmosphere, plus some of its ideas were new. But the actual execution of those ideas? pretty dull.

"it sounds like 3D puzzles aren't your thing"

No I love Portal, I love Antichamber, I am pretty fucking pumped for The Witness. Boring, simplistic, and dull puzzles aren't my thing. Major difference.

The rest? Like I said is a matter of neither of our two egos willing to agree with each other, all I ask is you cut the bullshit that my opinion fits your silly ass trope, because shit doesn't fly. Because I have no desire to argue this shit in a back and forth affair. Especially when your go to tactic is to make assumptions about what I like and I don't like. I'll take my part of the blame when I wrote something poorly (such as the sentence about something being superficial).

Man I love the SNES, such a great console. I say its the best personally.

@TigerSuperman: LOL.

Dude, you are mistaken. The industry crashed in '83. Look it up.

jg4xchamp:

No I love Portal, I love Antichamber, I am pretty fucking pumped for The Witness. Boring, simplistic, and dull puzzles aren't my thing.

When you compared Ocarina puzzles to "a shitty Valve move", I thought you were dissing Portal there (hence my assumption that you dislike 3D puzzles). If you didn't mean Portal, then what did you mean by that?

FrozenLiquid:

1) Romeo & Juliet does not have a bad story, nor does it have poor characters, nor is it even cliched. Honestly, there really isn't much more to say because that was just objectively wrong. You probably haven't even seen a performance of Romeo & Juliet. Romeo & Juliet cliched? Aww gummon whatta grack up.

Then you went full retard with "Shakespeare's stories have aged badly". What, are you fucking kidding? Titus Andronicus, his first play, has gone back into production at the Globe theatre, precisely because people are still discovering elements of his genius they didn't see before.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say Romeo & Juliet has a bad story. And nowhere did I say all of Shakespeare's stories have aged badly. And just for the record, I have seen a performance of Romeo & Juliet at a theatre.

2) One of Citizen Kane's greatest triumphs is the pacing. It speeds up and slows down depending on what the director wants you to focus on. It's the life of a media mogul in two hours. It's brilliant artistry.

The pacing was great for its time, but it's too slow-paced by today's standards.

3) The Beatles did brilliant with popular music chords. No, modern rock music hasn't surpassed them en masse.

Like I already said, the melodies haven't aged, but the guitar work has definitely aged.

You seem to think that just because I say something has aged, that it's bad. No, my point is that something can still be great even if it has aged, or is cliche, by today's standards. Maybe I should have been clearer about that.

To be fair, it wasn't and was already used, for numerous things before.

You are the one who said 1982, try to keep up with your own posts, and crash was a shrinking not a dismantling the fact you continue to ignore release dates of games and consoles releasing in that very time frame, including the release dates and sales of the very console praising, shows you're not even trying.

People on this board forget what opinions are some times, what is this argument even about outside saying ones view is wrong? Multiple times?

@TigerSuperman: WTF? Sorry, I was off by a year.

You are honestly going to tell me that your diatribe about "there was no video game crash" was because I typed "1982" instead of "1983"?

I never said there wasn't a crash. You're saying crash =destruction, when in reality the crash= slow down in momentum/shrinkage. You're basically saying the crash was 5x more serious then it actually was and ignoring when it started recovering.