so can we agree now the ps3 is more powerful?

ps3 games that are highly physics based cannot be done on the 360, unless the level of physics get toned down.

developers have stated this a few times.

dethroned3

but ps3 beats 360 in graphics....lighting....physics...my point is...its not just one thing......i would say thats more then a little better.....Supa__Mario

[QUOTE="NBSRDan"]The Playstation 3 processor is over 4 times as fast as that of the Wii, and about equal to that of the Xbox 360. Its graphics card is about 10% more powerful than that of the Xbox 360, and a little over twice as powerful as that of the Wii. It has less than half the RAM of either Wii or Xbox 360. And these aren't my experiences, these are facts I just looked up on Wikipedia. ronvalencia

he's literally a little kid who dont know what he's talking about.

no need to quote him.

PS3 has 2.18 teraflops of performance power capable of 100 fps with 4D graphics. Why do lems think the 1.5 xbox is powerful?

PS3 has 2.18 teraflops of performance power capable of 100 fps with 4D graphics. Why do lems think the 1.5 xbox is powerful?

Return-Fire

god of war and uncharted...games i dont find fun to play no matter how they looked... hell i still play some dynasty warriors 4 when i want to have fun

PS3 has 2.18 teraflops of performance power capable of 100 fps with 4D graphics. Why do lems think the 1.5 xbox is powerful?

Return-Fire

2.18 teraflops is kind of **** horrible

[QUOTE="Walker34"]

[QUOTE="Camer999"]

I can see what you mean but what boggles the mind (I am not being a fanboy in this instance I am just pointing something out). Why does the 360 run Red faction better (a little), I mean that is the most physics intense game out there, so this leads me to believe with the level of physics calculating does not seperate the 360 and PS3 performance wise, what will?

ronvalencia

Think about this mathematically. A multi core processor when it comes to games is going to be strong when dealing with 2 larger entities. Take a tornado for example sucking up a couple cars. A quad core or tri core processor with a lot of bandwith and a beefed up graphics card is going to excel at that because of the way it's rendering. A processor with one central processor and 7 synergistic processing units which are basically dumbed down risc processors that cant hold a lot of information but can calculate certain things on the fly before they even pass it to the gpu are going to excel when you are dealing with smaller details like being able to incorporate sound processing, more dynamic lighting, physics on a smaller scale which add up. Ultimately i think we are going to see things go the way of cell and multicore processors because as we know the whole is ultimately greater than the sum of its parts. The better smaller things the better bigger things ultimately. Right now the cell and multicore processors are on the other side of the spectrum from one another.

And your point is what? I love how people throw technical specs out there when they have no idea what they even do. Sound to me dude like someone needs to get a clue. And its not me. I already explained why the ps3 is at an advantage in previous threads but tech geniuses like you are going to disagree regardless when you have no idea what you are talking about. So you are saying i dont realize that gpu's are basically coprocessors? Where did i say anything to the contrary? thanks for that lengthy meaningless bunch of garble that says absolutely nothing though. You and steppy really should take a class on life. Steppy did the same thing and threw out a bunch of crap and ultimately said nothing.. Thanks that's great so what you are saying is gpu's these days are coprocessors and your point is what?

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Walker34"]

Think about this mathematically. A multi core processor when it comes to games is going to be strong when dealing with 2 larger entities. Take a tornado for example sucking up a couple cars. A quad core or tri core processor with a lot of bandwith and a beefed up graphics card is going to excel at that because of the way it's rendering. A processor with one central processor and 7 synergistic processing units which are basically dumbed down risc processors that cant hold a lot of information but can calculate certain things on the fly before they even pass it to the gpu are going to excel when you are dealing with smaller details like being able to incorporate sound processing, more dynamic lighting, physics on a smaller scale which add up. Ultimately i think we are going to see things go the way of cell and multicore processors because as we know the whole is ultimately greater than the sum of its parts. The better smaller things the better bigger things ultimately. Right now the cell and multicore processors are on the other side of the spectrum from one another.

Walker34

And your point is what? I love how people throw technical specs out there when they have no idea what they even do. Sound to me dude like someone needs to get a clue. And its not me. I already explained why the ps3 is at an advantage in previous threads but tech geniuses like you are going to disagree regardless when you have no idea what you are talking about. So you are saying i dont realize that gpu's are basically coprocessors? Where did i say anything to the contrary? thanks for that lengthy meaningless bunch of garble that says absolutely nothing though. You and steppy really should take a class on life. Steppy did the same thing and threw out a bunch of crap and ultimately said nothing.. Thanks that's great so what you are saying is gpu's these days are coprocessors and your point is what?

[QUOTE="Walker34"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] Somebody needs to go Computer Science 101. GPUs these days are RISC co-processors i.e. they process fix length instruction set. Fix length instruction sets simplify pipelining. Actually, some GPUs like ATI Radeon HD 2900 or ATI Xenos employs VLIW designs i.e. ala Intel Itanium. Geforce 8/9/GT2x0 employs SIMT (Single Instruction Multiple Threads) designi.e. like SIMD with "D" being executed as separate thread. Being "RISC" doesn't automatically equal an advantage. Ever since Intel Pentium Pro and AMD K5, modern X86 processors translates CISC operations (variable length) into RISC like operations (length instructions). VitunLehmat

And your point is what? I love how people throw technical specs out there when they have no idea what they even do. Sound to me dude like someone needs to get a clue. And its not me. I already explained why the ps3 is at an advantage in previous threads but tech geniuses like you are going to disagree regardless when you have no idea what you are talking about. So you are saying i dont realize that gpu's are basically coprocessors? Where did i say anything to the contrary? thanks for that lengthy meaningless bunch of garble that says absolutely nothing though. You and steppy really should take a class on life. Steppy did the same thing and threw out a bunch of crap and ultimately said nothing.. Thanks that's great so what you are saying is gpu's these days are coprocessors and your point is what?

I don't care if he does it for a living. The fact is what i said is true. The ps3 is capable of running 9 threads ultimately because of the additional spe's. I don't believe it can run the full 9, so if developers get it running optimally it is running 8. The 360 has 3 cores and is running 2 threads each. Which equals 6 and a beefed up gpu. The 360 is a more traditional design and is more geared to handle high level code. But if you can get the ps3 running optimally it doesn't need to rely as much on the gpu. You can have more threads running doing different things like sound processing, physics etc.... Yes bandwith and the design of the chip also comes into play. Both processors ultimately are running at the same frequency but they are a different design. The spu's are designed to handle specialized tasks.

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"]

[QUOTE="mD-"]

After seeing that gameplay in HD, then you don't even need it to be released. You can see it all going on right infront of you. If I find a video of Gears of War 2 online and then go play it on my TV, it ends up looking similar enough (obviously better on my TV), but my point is that you know Uncharted 2 has going on

djsifer01

power > games!!!! LOL!

Hardware wise the PS3 has more power but it's hard to program for so some of that is wasted and now that most games come out on both the 360 and PS3 it seems sort of pointless arguing as both will get pretty much the same gamesmarkop2003

Hardware wise the PS3 has more power but it's hard to program for so some of that is wasted and now that most games come out on both the 360 and PS3 it seems sort of pointless arguing as both will get pretty much the same gamesmarkop2003

I agree with you. In the real world the ps3 was slow to take off becausae the 360 was easier to develop for. Most people are concerned about what they can do at the drop of a hat and money. The 360 got off to a head start because of that and because it released early. Ultimately both systems are going to be taken full advantage of though. The lifespan of these consoles should allow developers to do that and take full advantage of them. We are pretty much at that point for both consoles. The same things can be said with the ps2 as time went on and develoeprs got their hands around the hardware it showed what it was capable of. The same will happen with the ps3. I agree its not a huge difference. Both systems will have great games and the 360 the games seem to come a bit quicker. I have one for that reason. The ps3 might be slightly more impressive. It has bluray and can do slightly more graphically potentially. But there are also problems with it as well. Ultimately both systems are pretty much the same. They have the same games. The ps3 has some exclusive stuff the 360 doesnt. The 360 has games the ps3 doesn't. The ps3 has bluray. The 360 has offered downloadable hd content to counter. I might have to change discs on the 360 but who cares.

[QUOTE="VitunLehmat"][QUOTE="Walker34"]

And your point is what? I love how people throw technical specs out there when they have no idea what they even do. Sound to me dude like someone needs to get a clue. And its not me. I already explained why the ps3 is at an advantage in previous threads but tech geniuses like you are going to disagree regardless when you have no idea what you are talking about. So you are saying i dont realize that gpu's are basically coprocessors? Where did i say anything to the contrary? thanks for that lengthy meaningless bunch of garble that says absolutely nothing though. You and steppy really should take a class on life. Steppy did the same thing and threw out a bunch of crap and ultimately said nothing.. Thanks that's great so what you are saying is gpu's these days are coprocessors and your point is what?

Walker34

I don't care if he does it for a living. The fact is what i said is true. The ps3 is capable of running 9 threads ultimately because of the additional spe's. I don't believe it can run the full 9, so if developers get it running optimally it is running 8. The 360 has 3 cores and is running 2 threads each. Which equals 6 and a beefed up gpu. The 360 is a more traditional design and is more geared to handle high level code. But if you can get the ps3 running optimally it doesn't need to rely as much on the gpu. You can have more threads running doing different things like sound processing, physics etc.... Yes bandwith and the design of the chip also comes into play. Both processors ultimately are running at the same frequency but they are a different design. The spu's are designed to handle specialized tasks.

[QUOTE="Walker34"]

[QUOTE="VitunLehmat"] lol telling ronvalencia that he doesn't know what he's talking about = fails,the guy does that for a living and knows what he's talking about,too bad you can't prove him wrong lol.-GeordiLaForge-

I don't care if he does it for a living. The fact is what i said is true. The ps3 is capable of running 9 threads ultimately because of the additional spe's. I don't believe it can run the full 9, so if developers get it running optimally it is running 8. The 360 has 3 cores and is running 2 threads each. Which equals 6 and a beefed up gpu. The 360 is a more traditional design and is more geared to handle high level code. But if you can get the ps3 running optimally it doesn't need to rely as much on the gpu. You can have more threads running doing different things like sound processing, physics etc.... Yes bandwith and the design of the chip also comes into play. Both processors ultimately are running at the same frequency but they are a different design. The spu's are designed to handle specialized tasks.

I said bandwith and the design of the chip comes into play. Again you are trying to prove me wrong dude, for no reason. Did I not say the ps3 is at an advantage from a hardware perspective if developers delve into it? I'm not the one saying they are identical like some of you supposed tech geniuses have when you have no idea what these things even do apparently in the real world. I said it is running 8 threads genius. am i wrong? no i'm not. since you are so concerned with symantics. You just disagreed and said one spe is disabled which is what i said. Thanks for agreeing. The 360 has 6 general purpose threads but ultimately they are trying to do the same things.

Errr...NO

Both has equally great looking games: Uncharted2, Killzone2, God of War 3 and GT5 VS Gears2, Forza3, Alan Wake and Splinter Cell Conviction. Also multiplats keep looking better on the 360.

[QUOTE="markop2003"]Hardware wise the PS3 has more power but it's hard to program for so some of that is wasted and now that most games come out on both the 360 and PS3 it seems sort of pointless arguing as both will get pretty much the same gamesSteppy_76

I said it is running 8 threads geniusWalker34

The ps3 is capable of running 9 threads ultimately because of the additional spe's.Walker34

[QUOTE="Walker34"]I said it is running 8 threads genius-GeordiLaForge-

The ps3 is capable of running 9 threads ultimately because of the additional spe's.Walker34

Read what i said again. You took it out of context. So i worded it wrong sorry? I also said right after that that it's only capable of running 8. So what you are saying is you read one line and ignored the sentence right after it. So you can't read apparently. I also said in another post ebfore several pages ago it is running 8.

Slightly more powerful, but not like a huge difference like the cube and xbox were compared to the ps2 and dreamcast.

ive been saying this for years with silly fanboys saying the 360 could do anything the ps3 can and have it look better. I disagree. I dont think the ps3 can do what we've seen from god of war and uncharted 2. I actually have a 360 and dont even have a ps3 and believe this. I think microsoft won e3 and will be better overall with all the games coming that will be great too, and probably a more complete experience since its on its 3rd or 4th generation of games at this point, but from a pure graphics muscle perspective the ps3 is starting to show its more powerful imo.

Walker34

I can believe you people are fighting about which "console" has better graphics... If you want good graphics, then get a PC. Otherwise, have fun on your system.

ive been saying this for years with silly fanboys saying the 360 could do anything the ps3 can and have it look better. I disagree. I dont think the ps3 can do what we've seen from god of war and uncharted 2. I actually have a 360 and dont even have a ps3 and believe this. I think microsoft won e3 and will be better overall with all the games coming that will be great too, and probably a more complete experience since its on its 3rd or 4th generation of games at this point, but from a pure graphics muscle perspective the ps3 is starting to show its more powerful imo.

Walker34

[QUOTE="Supa__Mario"]just look at exclusives....u will see which is more powerful...pyromaniac223

[QUOTE="djsifer01"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]I totally agree it looks beatiful. It just doesn't prove the PS3 does better than the 360...it proves nothing other than what Insomniac is able to get out of the PS3.

Steppy_76

Anyways all i've said in the past is that the cell is capable of processing more because each spe is designed for specialized tasks. Since I was questioned on this. The reason I say this is because they basically can be separated from the ppe and have access to their own dedicated cache. Since someone thinks I don't know this. The cell actually has very high internal bandwith. People talk about the 360's bandwith but internally the cell actually has more I believe. I don't know every detail but i understand enough to know why it is at an advantage and i've been questioned on this when what I'm saying is right. No i havent read every detail and know every transistor that is in the cell. IF I read one article i'd probably know more than most techs here. But i know enought o know why it is at an advantage. what i find interesting is most of these guys know this yet they keep saying it isn't. I'd like to know why. I agree in the real world it doesnt mean a whole lot if developers aren't willing to delve into it and take advantage of it but i have a hard time believing with the lifespan of these consoles and what sony has invested in it that it wont be. I believe the ps3 is more powerful. Is it a huge difference? No it isn't. But if each system is being taken advantage of and running at its highest peak the ps3 is capable of more. But even that can be argued because it depends on what you are trying to do and the designer itself. You take a crappy developer and get the most out of a processor ultiamtely you are still going to have a crappy game.

And your point is what? I love how people throw technical specs out there when they have no idea what they even do. Sound to me dude like someone needs to get a clue. And its not me. I already explained why the ps3 is at an advantage in previous threads but tech geniuses like you are going to disagree regardless when you have no idea what you are talking about. So you are saying i dont realize that gpu's are basically coprocessors? Where did i say anything to the contrary? thanks for that lengthy meaningless bunch of garble that says absolutely nothing though. You and steppy really should take a class on life. Steppy did the same thing and threw out a bunch of crap and ultimately said nothing.. Thanks that's great so what you are saying is gpu's these days are coprocessors and your point is what?Walker34

In relation to "processor with one central processor and 7 synergistic processing units which are basically dumbed down risc processors that cant hold a lot of information but can calculate certain things on the fly before they even pass it to the gpu", there's nothing inherently special about SPE. SPE's being a "dumbed down risc processors" is a "so what" in relation to modern GpGPU i.e.GPUs are also "dump down" RISC processors.

Didn't you know AMD competes against IBM's PowerXCELL 8i with ATI RV770 GPU in HPC market?

Geforce 7 (which is RSX's base) is dead in HPC market e.g. when processingFold at Home it's dead slow.

Refer tohttp://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3904/processing_the_truth_an_interview_.php?page=3

"I'm going to have to answer with an 'it depends,'" laughs Shippy, after a pause. "Again, they're completely different models. So in the PS3, you've got this Cell chip which has massive parallel processing power, the PowerPC core, multiple SPU cores... it's got a GPU that is, in the model here, processing more in the Cell chip and less in the GPU. So that's one processing paradigm -- a heterogeneous paradigm."

"With the Xbox 360, you've got more of a traditional multi-core system, and you've got three PowerPC cores, each of them having dual threads -- so you've got six threads running there, at least in the CPU. Six threads in Xbox 360, and eight or nine threads in the PS3 -- but then you've got to factor in the GPU," Shippy explains. "The GPU is highly sophisticated in the Xbox 360."

He concludes: "At the end of the day, when you put them all together, depending on the software, I think they're pretty equal, even though they're completely different processing models."

One should not compare XBox 360 and PS3 in CPU vs CPU or GPU vs GPU.Your statement runs against the lead designer of both CELL and Xenon processors. Ultimately, both PS3 and Xbox 360 are roughly the same performance. Unlike you, Shippy didn't forget ATI's GpGPU.

[QUOTE="-GeordiLaForge-"][QUOTE="Walker34"]The ps3 is capable of running 9 threads ultimately because of the additional spe's.Walker34

Read what i said again. You took it out of context. So i worded it wrong sorry? I also said right after that that it's only capable of running 8. So what you are saying is you read one line and ignored the sentence right after it. So you can't read apparently. I also said in another post ebfore several pages ago it is running 8.

Anyways all i've said in the past is that the cell is capable of processing more because each spe is designed for specialized tasks. Since I was questioned on this. The reason I say this is because they basically can be separated from the ppe and have access to their own dedicated cache. Since someone thinks I don't know this. The cell actually has very high internal bandwith. People talk about the 360's bandwith but internally the cell actually has more I believe. I don't know every detail but i understand enough to know why it is at an advantage and i've been questioned on this when what I'm saying is right.

Walker34

Let's use NVIDIA G80's example.

http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/luebke-nvidia-gpu-architecture.pdf

For example;

Geforce 8600 GT/Geforce 9650M GT has four of these processing elements i.e. 32 SPs with 32768 32bit registers.

Geforce 9600 GSO has eight of these processing elements i.e. 96 SPs with 98304 registers i.e. these values are stored next to actual execution cores. ...

This is in addition to texture, filtering, AA, Z-Cull, Early-Z-Cull, texture de-compression, ROPs, PureVideo (SIMD) and 'etc' support units. ATI Radeon HDs and Xenos has more support units e.g. tessellation and global illumination. These support units reduces the workload on the stream processors. CELL doesn't have this luxury.

PS3's 7 SPEs only has 896 registers or effectively it has 3584 32bit registers. SPE's programming model is less specialised in array math computation compared to GPUs.

OMG! did you just compare alan wake and splinter cell to uncharted 2 you must be blind.

Why are you guys hyping god of war 3's graphics it looks about the same as ninja gaiden 2 honestly. Uncharted 2 looks really good but splinter cell conviction, alan wake do as well.

Norule04

OMG! did you just compare alan wake and splinter cell to uncharted 2 you must be blind. [QUOTE="Norule04"]

Why are you guys hyping god of war 3's graphics it looks about the same as ninja gaiden 2 honestly. Uncharted 2 looks really good but splinter cell conviction, alan wake do as well.

redskins2156

Uncharted2 probably looks a bit better. Alan Wake has better lightning, phisics and is a sand box game. At the end both may be tecnically very close

Hey Steppy,why dont you just admit they both have there strengths and weeknesses. There both good consoles but Sonys Dervs know who to get more out of there machine. I love my 360 but dont like the games as much and to me the PS3 has better graphics i can see it. I have a Samsung 46inch 1080p 120hz TV and all flaws show up.djsifer01

[QUOTE="Walker34"]

Anyways all i've said in the past is that the cell is capable of processing more because each spe is designed for specialized tasks. Since I was questioned on this. The reason I say this is because they basically can be separated from the ppe and have access to their own dedicated cache. Since someone thinks I don't know this. The cell actually has very high internal bandwith. People talk about the 360's bandwith but internally the cell actually has more I believe. I don't know every detail but i understand enough to know why it is at an advantage and i've been questioned on this when what I'm saying is right.

ronvalencia

Let's use NVIDIA G80's example.

http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/luebke-nvidia-gpu-architecture.pdf

For example;

Geforce 8600 GT/Geforce 9650M GT has four of these processing elements i.e. 32 SPs with 32768 32bit registers.

Geforce 9600 GSO has eight of these processing elements i.e. 96 SPs with 98304 registers i.e. these values are stored next to actual execution cores. ...

This is in addition to texture, filtering, AA, Z-Cull, Early-Z-Cull, texture de-compression, ROPs, PureVideo (SIMD) and 'etc' support units. ATI Radeon HDs and Xenos has more support units e.g. tessellation and global illumination. These support units reduces the workload on the stream processors. CELL doesn't have this luxury.

PS3's 7 SPEs only has 896 registers or effectively it has 3584 32bit registers. SPE's programming model is less specialised in array math computation compared to GPUs.

So the spe's can be used for other things. But the gpu helps more for graphics than the spe's are going to be able to because it has more support units and a lot more registers to work with. Is that what you are saying? The line about their math specialization falling between an intel cpu and radian x1900 gpu is interesting..

[QUOTE="redskins2156"]

OMG! did you just compare alan wake and splinter cell to uncharted 2 you must be blind. [QUOTE="Norule04"]

Why are you guys hyping god of war 3's graphics it looks about the same as ninja gaiden 2 honestly. Uncharted 2 looks really good but splinter cell conviction, alan wake do as well.

Uncharted2 probably looks a bit better. Alan Wake has better lightning, phisics and is a sand box game. At the end both may be tecnically very close

[QUOTE="PAL360"]

[QUOTE="redskins2156"]

Supa__Mario

Uncharted2 probably looks a bit better. Alan Wake has better lightning, phisics and is a sand box game. At the end both may be tecnically very close

Here

enjoy :)

I would say so based off of exclusives and games that aren't available on the other console (360/PC games). Multiplatform games could look better on either console or look the same on both though.

[QUOTE="Supa__Mario"][QUOTE="PAL360"]wow.....the arrogance here is strong! :shock:

Uncharted2 probably looks a bit better. Alan Wake has better lightning, phisics and is a sand box game. At the end both may be tecnically very close

Here

enjoy :)

physics?....lol wen did u play the game.....based on hardware though....ps3 has better physics...Supa__Mario

Here

enjoy :)

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"]

[QUOTE="djsifer01"]Too bad insomniac isnt the developer lol. Now its obvious you dont own a PS3 steppy and your totaly bias. You make your statements on nothing concrete, and no nothing about the PS3 hardware.djsifer01

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="Walker34"]

Anyways all i've said in the past is that the cell is capable of processing more because each spe is designed for specialized tasks. Since I was questioned on this. The reason I say this is because they basically can be separated from the ppe and have access to their own dedicated cache. Since someone thinks I don't know this. The cell actually has very high internal bandwith. People talk about the 360's bandwith but internally the cell actually has more I believe. I don't know every detail but i understand enough to know why it is at an advantage and i've been questioned on this when what I'm saying is right.

Let's use NVIDIA G80's example.

http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/luebke-nvidia-gpu-architecture.pdf

For example;

Geforce 8600 GT/Geforce 9650M GT has four of these processing elements i.e. 32 SPs with 32768 32bit registers.

Geforce 9600 GSO has eight of these processing elements i.e. 96 SPs with 98304 registers i.e. these values are stored next to actual execution cores. ...

This is in addition to texture, filtering, AA, Z-Cull, Early-Z-Cull, texture de-compression, ROPs, PureVideo (SIMD) and 'etc' support units. ATI Radeon HDs and Xenos has more support units e.g. tessellation and global illumination. These support units reduces the workload on the stream processors. CELL doesn't have this luxury.

PS3's 7 SPEs only has 896 registers or effectively it has 3584 32bit registers. SPE's programming model is less specialised in array math computation compared to GPUs.

So the spe's can be used for other things. But the gpu helps more for graphics than the spe's are going to be able to because it has more support units. Is that what you are saying?

I agree with Shippy. I didn't forget the gpu. I just think that granularly thinking the cell is going to be able to overcome that deficit if coded for. I think at it's peak you can do slightly more with it. But yeah the 360's gpu does offset most of it and what you end up with is one big **** I wasn't disagreeing with that. I agree the 360's gpu is better. The fact is has 3 cores also gives it the ability to do other things. Like you said or that article said the spe's fall somewhere in between. My opinion and it is just an opinion is that the ps3 can offset most of that and do more. The only thing i have to support that is games like uncharted 2, god of war, killzone 2 look slightly better imo and appear to be doing slightly more. But that's just me.

One thing I will say though is that it doesn't say much for innovation when you have 2 diffferent archictectures and you end up with the same thing. IBM- "Here you go Sony. Here's yours and here's yours Microsoft. Have fun. We basically put different things in different places. Good luck finding them." They do the same thing.

I agree with Shippy. I didn't forget the gpu. I just think that granularly thinking the cell is going to be able to overcome that deficit if coded for. I think at it's peak you can do slightly more with it. But yeah the 360's gpu does offset most of it and what you end up with is one big **** I wasn't disagreeing with that. I agree the 360's gpu is better. The fact is has 3 cores also gives it the ability to do other things. Like you said or that article said the spe's fall somewhere in between. My opinion and it is just an opinion is that the ps3 can offset most of that and do more. The only thing i have to support that is games like uncharted 2, god of war, killzone 2 look slightly better imo and appear to be doing slightly more. But that's just me.