So now that VR is offically coming to the Wii..IS THIS THE END OF SONY AND MS ??

[QUOTE="Zenfoldor"]

lol, dramage control on this topic has compared head tracking to the power glove and voice recognition.

There is no laughing smiley big enough to demonstrate the laugh that is out loud in my house right now.

Microsoft and Sony can't be in any more trouble then they are right now though, however, this new technology will raise eyebrows for the Wii, as if it needed them raised, its the most sucessful console of all time, and nothing can slow it down.

All I can say is PS3 should consider itself lucky it can play Blu-Ray discs, and Microsoft, get to working on the 720. Sure, both companies will make, or more likely, lose money, till the end of this gen. However, Nintendo laughs at their "sales" from its mountain, at this point. There is no more "war" only a sloppy battle for second place, dominated by a PS3 with some left over brand clout from last gen.

Hey, truth hurts. Maybe MGS can up the PS3 sales in japan for more than a week, and shut me up, but then it can't. In 2010 when FFXIII comes out, the Wii better watch out, cause Sony will gain some ground! lmao.

MasterC5

But it is revolutionary, it is technology that EA has developed for a Wii game, it will be in future games for the Wii, and it does get developers, and gamers interested. I dunno about a lot of people, but I decided for sure to buy Boom Blox because of this.

Acting like its nothing, not cool or interesting, or inherantly flawed like Voice recognition, is just damage control. Sorry.

Your acting like they have created virtual reality on the level of the matrix or som,ething, this is not a huge achievment in Vr get over it!
MasterC5

Why do you hate the Wii? If this was on your system, you would be all over it. Your damage controlling, man, there's not way around that. You just don't like the Wii, so anything it does "isn't that big of a deal."

Head tracking is cool, everyone who sees what it is, agrees, and its a major step in console functionality, as big as motion controls, at least. This is just the first step. Anyone who denies that head-tracking isn't at least interesting from a development standpoint, is a Wii hater Cow or Lemming, jealous of this new Wii advance.

You get over it. There is nothing you can do to stop it, or slow down Wii sales, now is there?

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Zenfoldor"]

lol, dramage control on this topic has compared head tracking to the power glove and voice recognition.

There is no laughing smiley big enough to demonstrate the laugh that is out loud in my house right now.

Microsoft and Sony can't be in any more trouble then they are right now though, however, this new technology will raise eyebrows for the Wii, as if it needed them raised, its the most sucessful console of all time, and nothing can slow it down.

All I can say is PS3 should consider itself lucky it can play Blu-Ray discs, and Microsoft, get to working on the 720. Sure, both companies will make, or more likely, lose money, till the end of this gen. However, Nintendo laughs at their "sales" from its mountain, at this point. There is no more "war" only a sloppy battle for second place, dominated by a PS3 with some left over brand clout from last gen.

Hey, truth hurts. Maybe MGS can up the PS3 sales in japan for more than a week, and shut me up, but then it can't. In 2010 when FFXIII comes out, the Wii better watch out, cause Sony will gain some ground! lmao.

Zenfoldor

But it is revolutionary, it is technology that EA has developed for a Wii game, it will be in future games for the Wii, and it does get developers, and gamers interested. I dunno about a lot of people, but I decided for sure to buy Boom Blox because of this.

Acting like its nothing, not cool or interesting, or inherantly flawed like Voice recognition, is just damage control. Sorry.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]Your acting like they have created virtual reality on the level of the matrix or som,ething, this is not a huge achievment in Vr get over it!
Zenfoldor

Why do you hate the Wii? If this was on your system, you would be all over it. Your damage controlling, man, there's not way around that. You just don't like the Wii, so anything it does "isn't that big of a deal."

Head tracking is cool, everyone who sees what it is, agrees, and its a major step in console functionality, as big as motion controls, at least. This is just the first step. Anyone who denies that head-tracking isn't at least interesting from a development standpoint, is a Wii hater Cow or Lemming, jealous of this new Wii advance.

You get over it. There is nothing you can do to stop it, or slow down Wii sales, now is there?

So head tracking and virtual reality is a fad, and in 20 years, we'll all be back to playing on 2d static images like we should have been from the start, amiright? Kinda like motion controls? Silly. Don't ruin your reputation, trying to damage controls Wii breakthroughs. Just don't let topics like this provoke you. They are meant to make you react like this. Sure, the PS3 and 360 will never sell like the Wii, but that doesn't mean they are "dead" just "not as alive".

Zenfoldor

I still don't think motion controls, at least as the Wii has them designed is a long-term thing. Head tilting does nothing for me as a gamer that I couldn't do before as I see it.

[QUOTE="Aidenfury19"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

a) You'd also need the same sort of peripheral -- an IR emitter -- for the PS3. Which means buying TWO peripherals for the PS3 -- the EyeToy, and the IR emitter -- and only ONE for the Wii.

2) How much does the EyeToy cost?

mjarantilla

1) Which could be included in the same package as the Eye for little additional cost, or possibly eliminated entirely.

2) $70 with a game, which is about the same price as a special edition. This is at full MSRP and I see no reason to believe it'll stay at that price, especially if Sony chose to go ahead with something like this, which I doubt.

Considering that the Eye is already used for gaming (with regular releases) it would have an established base, unlike the potential Wii solution. That doesn't change at all what I said to begin with, this won't be successful wherever it ends up.

1) Exactly. The cost for the IR emitter is virtually negligible. The cost for the Eyetoy, however, is not.

b) Is this the EyeToy or the EyeToy HD? And why would it have an established base for head tracking when no systems other than the Wii currently even employ head tracking?

iii) Self-counter: You should've brought up the fact that the PS3 + EyeToy has face and pattern recognition abilities, unlike the Wiimote which is purely an IR sensor. That would eliminate the need for an IR emitter peripheral entirely. It might eat up some CPU cycles, but not that much. And since I just beat my own argument, I'll leave you alone for now. :)

!) Conceded I suppose, it was mostly irrelevant to my original argument to begin with. That being that they both require peripherals.

b) Considering the EyeToy HD doesn't exist I can't answer that, if you mean the Eye then that. It has an established customer base, something that head tracking on the Wii would not, the Eye is design for motion-tracking games to begin with so it would not be a very large jump.

III) Thats kind of what I meant when I said "or eliminated entirely" I wasn't talking about cost, I was talking about the IR transmitter as a whole.

[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

Capcom sold 2 million copies of DMC4 on 360/PS3.

Eponique

Link?

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/devilmaycry4/news.html?sid=6186309

there u go

I think the primary reason the head tracking is getting dissed is that the TV doesn't move with you. Without that, it's a bit tricky to turn one's head in any significant fashion (say, 90 degrees) and still be able to look at the screen. A full VR experience will require a viewscreen that moves with you (for example, display goggles on your head). However, logistics limitations--not to mention the potential for motion sickness--oh, and the nerd stigma associated with past attempts--make many companies wary of such an implementation.HuusAsking

It can be solved with adjustable sensitivity, where a certain movement can be turned into a bigger one. It's been done with TrackIR supporting games and it's pretty handy in dog fighting sims.

I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeCossackNoodle

VR?

Virtua Boy comes to mind.

Call me crazy, but I don't see a lot of people mistaking Wii's graphics for "reality". Another gimmick, from the sounds of it. The Wii has more silly lightsaber/sword/tennis racket gadgets than it does actual games.

[QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Nintendo tried to do VR long time ago.

They ended up failing. Hard.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeSpider-Jones

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Nintendo tried to do VR long time ago.

They ended up failing. Hard.

SpinoRaptor

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeSpider-Jones

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

please note that Capcom said that Wii can handle RE5 (without HD of course) and factor 5 is creating a Wii engine that can do anything PS3 can do "and then some" so please give Wii more credit.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyenintendo-4life

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

please note that Capcom said that Wii can handle RE5 (without HD of course) and factor 5 is creating a Wii engine that can do anything PS3 can do "and then some" so please give Wii more credit.

[QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

please note that Capcom said that Wii can handle RE5 (without HD of course) and factor 5 is creating a Wii engine that can do anything PS3 can do "and then some" so please give Wii more credit.

and yes capcom did say that the reason wasn't because Wii couldn't handle the graphics, it's that they want top notch graphics THAT'S IT!!!

it seems that i am not the one in or a rude awakening.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyenintendo-4life

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

please note that Capcom said that Wii can handle RE5 (without HD of course) and factor 5 is creating a Wii engine that can do anything PS3 can do "and then some" so please give Wii more credit.

and yes capcom did say that the reason wasn't because Wii couldn't handle the graphics, it's that they want top notch graphics THAT'S IT!!!

it seems that i am not the one in or a rude awakening.

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

[QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

please note that Capcom said that Wii can handle RE5 (without HD of course) and factor 5 is creating a Wii engine that can do anything PS3 can do "and then some" so please give Wii more credit.

and yes capcom did say that the reason wasn't because Wii couldn't handle the graphics, it's that they want top notch graphics THAT'S IT!!!

it seems that i am not the one in or a rude awakening.

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

you are damage controlling, it's very obvious when you start offending the people and not their arguments.

dude lets be serious here this won't kill the other console but it will put the Wii on a higher note than them.

ONLY WITH MODS, OR ACCESSORIES, WII DOESN'T NEED THIS.

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

MasterC5

But are they doing it? No, that's the difference.

Give up dude.. just because your opinion doesn't match other peoples doesn't mean this new feature is nothing interesting and has no potential.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

Erebyssial

But are they doing it? No, that's the difference.

Give up dude.. just because your opinion doesn't match other peoples doesn't mean this new feature is nothing interesting and has no potential.

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

MasterC5

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

HuusAsking

plus its actually coming soon in reality, unlike that vaporware on paper you presented in your post that has nothing to do with either 360 or the PS3.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeSpider-Jones

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

HuusAsking

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

Spider-Jones

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

nintendo-4life

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

nintendo-4life

[QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

MasterC5

Finally found it. It's called the ZCam.

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

[QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

HuusAsking

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeSpider-Jones

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

Wrong you have been talking about how it could be implemented into genres like fps, do you have any idea how much ram would be required to get this to work with a ton of stuff movin on screen like in an FPS this has nothing to do with graphjics but processing power your the one that is looking like a fool here.

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

1.I am not damage controlling merely stating you are overblowing this

2.I own a wii so even if this destroys the other consoles I am set

3.The 360 and ps3 are very capable of head tracking

HuusAsking

Face it... it's over ;)

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

Wrong you have been talking about how it could be implemented into genres like fps, do you have any idea how much ram would be required to get this to work with a ton of stuff movin on screen like in an FPS this has nothing to do with graphjics but processing power your the one that is looking like a fool here.

Wrong you have been talking about how it could be implemented into genres like fps, do you have any idea how much ram would be required to get this to work with a ton of stuff movin on screen like in an FPS this has nothing to do with graphjics but processing power your the one that is looking like a fool here.

poster

FPSs don't need tons of stuff onscreen.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeSpider-Jones

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

Wrong you have been talking about how it could be implemented into genres like fps, do you have any idea how much ram would be required to get this to work with a ton of stuff movin on screen like in an FPS this has nothing to do with graphjics but processing power your the one that is looking like a fool here.

:lol: What would be the use of 3D headtracking if you have to use a traditional 2D analog gamepad? That would give you realistic head movement while your hands would stay stationary. LAME.

Face it... it's over ;)

Spider-Jones

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

:lol: What would be the use of 3D headtracking if you have to use a traditional 2D analog gamepad? That would give you realistic head movement while your hands would stay stationary. LAME.

Face it... it's over ;)

HuusAsking

:lol: What would be the use of 3D headtracking if you have to use a traditional 2D analog gamepad? That would give you realistic head movement while your hands would stay stationary. LAME.

Face it... it's over ;)

poster

Well, it's good for flight sims and is good for stance control in a FPS.

[QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyeMasterC5

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

Any proof to back your speculation up? Didn't think so.

If this is done more simple, it could create some awesome FPS games, aim the gun AND the camera separately. wemhim

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"][QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="Spider-Jones"]

[QUOTE="MasterC5"][QUOTE="CossackNoodle"]I hope some has pointed out PS EYE CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING! there is a vid somewhere showing the exact thing he just clips on a lense and it tracks the two points on his glasses so SONY can do it with pseyePopadophalis

It's really quite amazing. Watch the demo video :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Look at the demo, it only used simply geometry yet still looked awesome as hell, the gameplay possibilities are endless;)

Any proof to back your speculation up? Didn't think so.

[QUOTE="wemhim"]If this is done more simple, it could create some awesome FPS games, aim the gun AND the camera separately. Spider-Jones