So the XIM3 is geting closer production, do you consider it Cheating?

What is up with everyone having these James Van Der Beek signatures?

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

I love KB/M and it is annoying that I cannot play Killzone 3 with a KB/M because they just don't allow it. It would be so easy for them to do, yet they don't, maybe because console users have this phobia of the superior control scheme, IDK.

lowe0

Just get a PC, if you buy this item for gaming you clearly wanted to get a PC but got a poor man's pc instead (xbox 360).
And yes it's cheating because games are designed with controllers in mind and difficulty of shooters is lower on consoles than on PC.
And it's clearly cheating if you use it for competitive online gameplay.

Locutus_Picard

Are people really that bad that they need to use a converter and play against console gamers using controllers to be good...if you want to use kb/m so much why not stick with PC gaming?

Are people really that bad that they need to use a converter and play against console gamers using controllers to be good...if you want to use kb/m so much why not stick with PC gaming?

Gxgear

Why can't we have the choice?

[QUOTE="Gxgear"]

Are people really that bad that they need to use a converter and play against console gamers using controllers to be good...if you want to use kb/m so much why not stick with PC gaming?

KG86

Why can't we have the choice?

You can choose to stick with playing on the PC, but I don't believe for a second that people will be getting this just so they can play Halo and Gears with kb/m.

to say that its cheating would then be to say headsets are cheating as they give the users an advantage over those w/out a good sound system. Or it would call those who use racing wheels cheaters as it gives them a advantage as well over controller users. Or those who play fighter games with a fight stick vs those who just use regular controller. These are all options gamers can choose, and if we are to call this cheating, then everything else is cheating.

That'd be cheating imo, just like it would be cheating for someone to enable autoaim on PC in a game that don't support it. I wouldn't mind one for singleplayer though, but not sure if I'd be comfortable using KB/M from the couch anyway.ManicAce

mike_on_mic

I suppose Microsoft better start pushing out PC versions of their 360 exclusives, then.

Are people really that bad that they need to use a converter and play against console gamers using controllers to be good...if you want to use kb/m so much why not stick with PC gaming?

Gxgear

Yes, I can't play shooters with a gamepad. Rather than give people who grew up with that particular scheme a handicap, I'll chance an evening of the odds by removing the issue of peripheral incompatibility from my end. If both me and the other person have no issues with using our chosen inputs, then won't strategy and playstyle be the true decider of who is victorious? Go ahead and prove that you actually have no clue as to how the XIM works by spouting one of those old favorites I see so often in these types of threads. "The mouse is faster," "the mouse is more accurate." Uh-huh. That's perfectly true—with driver-assisted mouselook. With analog emulation, the mouse is essentially transformed in to a very large, auto re-centering joystick. Think FPS Freeks, but to an extent that requires the user to use their wrist and arm instead of a single thumb. Not a complete comparison, but close enough to give one an idea of how a mouse connected through the XIM behaves.

Why can't we have the choice?KG86

That's really it. The consumer should have greater choice in choosing peripherals for any piece of hardware they happen to own. Then again, we do. It's just not one given to us by Microsoft.

You can choose to stick with playing on the PC, but I don't believe for a second that people will be getting this just so they can play Halo and Gears with kb/m.

Gxgear

Think again. As long as I have a PC version with LAN and dedicated server support, all is well. Such a pity that isn't always the case.

[QUOTE="locopatho"]It's like a guy on a motorbike entering a bicycle race, and saying "What's the problem?" :Prallaz

:lol:

Lol'd in real life :P

----

I say this is cheating. It's an unfair advantage, but still awesome.

meh, it's probably not gonna work all that well anyway.. so ppl playing with this super intelligent hardware could be ripping them selves off.. or it could work well and they could dominate.. anyway it rolls, it's more important to know map control than it is to win one on one gunfights..

It isn't cheating as anyone can own one, if you prefer to use the gamepad then go ahead. Why should I be limited though?

You know, I reread the entire thread, and I still don't see an answer to one question: if you insist on choosing your own input device instead of using the one the developer balanced the game on, then why not play it on a platform that natively permits that?

The weapon damage and accuracy on a console FPS is balanced for all players to be using the same input device, whether that device is a gamepad or a motion controller. If you're not willing to play by the rules, then why play at all?

It is undeniable that some persons will buy a XIM3 due only to what they perceive as an expected advantage, but this is not a universal characteristic of XIMers. I'm perfectly content to remain on PC so long as developers get me decent ports in an acceptable amount of time. Alas, there is no Halo 3 or Reach on PC (although I am currently burnt out on both, and am not likely to play either even after acquiring a XIM3), there is no Bad Company on PC (remedied with Bad Company 2, and only applicable with my previous use of the XIM2). Modern Warfare 2 was severely gimped by the combination of VAC-only anti-cheat, and peer-to-peer matchmaking. I use aIWnet now, since even with the recent breakdown of AC over there, dedicated server admins can still run a very tight operation, but before aIW, I would have instead opted for LIVE.

Slow or terrible ports and certain exclusives are my only reason to play on my 360. When I do, I fully intend to use a control scheme that I am more comfortable with. I won't bend to limits put in place for the sake of Microsoft's profits alone, especially when they harm the consumer. There's your answer.

It is undeniable that some persons will buy a XIM3 due only to what they perceive as an expected advantage, but this is not a universal characteristic of XIMers. I'm perfectly content to remain on PC so long as developers get me decent ports in an acceptable amount of time. Alas, there is no Halo 3 or Reach on PC (although I am currently burnt out on both, and am not likely to play either even after acquiring a XIM3), there is no Bad Company on PC (remedied with Bad Company 2, and only applicable with my previous use of the XIM2). Modern Warfare 2 was severely gimped by the combination of VAC-only anti-cheat, and peer-to-peer matchmaking. I use aIWnet now, since even with the recent breakdown of AC over there, dedicated server admins can still run a very tight operation, but before aIW, I would have instead opted for LIVE.

Slow or terrible ports and certain exclusives are my only reason to play on my 360. When I do, I fully intend to use a control scheme that I am more comfortable with. I won't bend to limits put in place for the sake of Microsoft's profits alone, especially when they harm the consumer. There's your answer.

CEOrko

I don´t see it as cheating at all,though it´s not very fair to use a clearly superior input device against people that are using controllers.

[QUOTE="SilverChimera"]If it's just mouse support, it's not cheating. PC games have support for mice and gamepads. Consoles should too. Robbazking

I don´t see it as cheating at all,though it´s not very fair to use a clearly superior input device against people that are using controllers.

Arach666

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

I don´t see it as cheating at all,though it´s not very fair to use a clearly superior input device against people that are using controllers.

lowe0

[QUOTE="mike_on_mic"]CEOrko

I suppose Microsoft better start pushing out PC versions of their 360 exclusives, then.

Are people really that bad that they need to use a converter and play against console gamers using controllers to be good...if you want to use kb/m so much why not stick with PC gaming?

Gxgear

Yes, I can't play shooters with a gamepad. Rather than give people who grew up with that particular scheme a handicap, I'll chance an evening of the odds by removing the issue of peripheral incompatibility from my end. If both me and the other person have no issues with using our chosen inputs, then won't strategy and playstyle be the true decider of who is victorious? Go ahead and prove that you actually have no clue as to how the XIM works by spouting one of those old favorites I see so often in these types of threads. "The mouse is faster," "the mouse is more accurate." Uh-huh. That's perfectly true—with driver-assisted mouselook. With analog emulation, the mouse is essentially transformed in to a very large, auto re-centering joystick. Think FPS Freeks, but to an extent that requires the user to use their wrist and arm instead of a single thumb. Not a complete comparison, but close enough to give one an idea of how a mouse connected through the XIM behaves.

You can choose to stick with playing on the PC, but I don't believe for a second that people will be getting this just so they can play Halo and Gears with kb/m.

Gxgear

Think again. As long as I have a PC version with LAN and dedicated server support, all is well. Such a pity that isn't always the case.

All I'm hearing is a bunch of excuses. You can't play with a controller yet you bought a console anyways? :?

You can explain the specifics of how this device works all your want, but at the end of the day you're still giving yourself an advantage over others. The fact that you're terrible to begin with (as admitted by yourself) doesn't even come close to a justification, not that there's any to begin with.

If the motivation for disallowing keyboards and mice on consoles were Microsoft's profit margins, here's a crazy idea - they would start selling you mice themselves. I know, crazy, right - Microsoft selling keyboards and mice? That's unheard of! Look, the fact that you don't get ports that cater to your system of choice doesn't give you the right to use a device that upsets the balance of the game. If you want to use it in single-player, be my guest, but if you want to use it in multiplayer, you're no better than a Javelin glitcher in MW2 or a U-boater in BC2. As I said before, if you don't want to play fairly, what's the point in playing at all?lowe0

Why would I want to play a game when the more abundant controller type makes that impossible?There is no clause in any of LIVE's user agreements that states one can not use unlicensed, third-party peripherals to interact with the console. Your comparison is a fair one, however, if such glitches are not subject to official opposition in that everyone has the option of using a XIM without breaking any actual rules, provided they aren't foolish enough to insist on using them in events whose guidelines specifically label such devices as illegal, much like the situation surrounding Razer's Onza and MLG use.

Fairness is quite the odd concept. What if I were to play on a CRT versus others using PVA/MVA panels with 30ms-120ms more input lag than myself? Or perhaps I happen to live next to one of LIVE's matchmaking servers, and always receive host as a result. Maybe I have a 5.1 surround sound system, and can accurately track players through audio alone. Or suppose I was missing one or both of my thumbs and could not properly manipulate the standard dual-analog joystick gamepad. Even more obscure, what ifI was partially paralyzed or born with some defect that hindered my ability to use my hands? What if I were born with vastly superior genetics when compared to most, that I possessed what bordered on being an inhuman reaction speed?Would it be fair that circumstance had placed me at an advantage or disadvantage in these situations? The answer is the same when asking if using the XIM is fair to use against players using controllers.

The idea of a level playing field even existing is a bad joke. Limiting any one variable merely presents a different set of problems also based on circumstance. When you allow people to choose what works best for them, you will always end up with a greater percentage of individuals hitting their respective peaks.

All I'm hearing is a bunch of excuses. You can't play with a controller yet you bought a console anyways? :?

You can explain the specifics of how this device works all your want, but at the end of the day you're still giving yourself an advantage over others. The fact that you're terrible to begin with (as admitted by yourself) doesn't even come close to a justification, not that there's any to begin with.

Gxgear

I did not buy a console with the intent of using the included gamepad. Indeed, I purchased a XFPS 3.0 Sniper before I did my 360. How unfortunate it is for you, then, that I have no intention of playing games to which own paid licenses with a peripheral not of my own choosing. You can research how these adapters work on your own if you wish to be educated, but I've no complaints should you prefer to spout inaccuracies based on ignorance, as it does not harm the legitimacy of my own argument. Granted you've so far avoided doing this, something I respect, even if it is only by blind chance. Still, there is no justification needed past individual choice, considering the opinion that use of the XIM3 and similar adapters is just that: opinion. An opinion without any official backing and no more clout than those of opposing viewpoints. You believe it to be cheating due to the advantage yielded by an increased area over which the normal range of the joystick is spread (I'm putting words in your mouth, but this is an actual advantage to using the XIM, though it is not unique to the device—elongated joysticks offer a similar effect). Fair enough. I believe it is a necessity that Microsoft should have had the foresight to provide themselves in the form of a console open to peripherals of all forms, and that this would better suit the player than attempting to force them all in to using a single control scheme.

I did not buy a console with the intent of using the included gamepad. Indeed, I purchased a XFPS 3.0 Sniper before I did my 360. How unfortunate it is for you, then, that I have no intention of playing games to which own paid licenses with a peripheral not of my own choosing. You can research how these adapters work on your own if you wish to be educated, but I've no complaints should you prefer to spout inaccuracies based on ignorance, as it does not harm the legitimacy of my own argument. Granted you've so far avoided doing this, something I respect, even if it is only by blind chance. Still, there is no justification needed past individual choice, considering the opinion that use of the XIM3 and similar adapters is just that: opinion. An opinion without any official backing and no more clout than those of opposing viewpoints. You believe it to be cheating due to the advantage yielded by an increased area over which the normal range of the joystick is spread (I'm putting words in your mouth, but this is an actual advantage to using the XIM, though it is not unique to the device—elongated joysticks offer a similar effect). Fair enough. I believe it is a necessity that Microsoft should have had the foresight to provide themselves in the form of a console open to peripherals of all forms, and that this would better suit the player than attempting to force them all in to using a single control scheme.

CEOrko

So many big words, when you could have just skipped to the end and agreed that my point is valid.

One can butter up the truth all he likes, but at the end of the day you're still using a 3rd party device to assist you. You may be correcting for lack of profiency with a controller (still taking that explanation with a grain of salt), but even then it'll still be a case in the minority.

If a console intends you to use kb/m, then it would have provided kb/m support. If not, then it's not different than using a rapidfire mod or outright hacking. Now you may argue that it's "not as bad" as hacking, but the intent is the same.

Just get a PC, if you buy this item for gaming you clearly wanted to get a PC but got a poor man's pc instead (xbox 360).
And yes it's cheating because games are designed with controllers in mind and difficulty of shooters is lower on consoles than on PC.
And it's clearly cheating if you use it for competitive online gameplay.

Locutus_Picard

I consider it as using a tactical nuclear strike against a bunch of stick wielding chimps.

[QUOTE="lowe0"]If the motivation for disallowing keyboards and mice on consoles were Microsoft's profit margins, here's a crazy idea - they would start selling you mice themselves. I know, crazy, right - Microsoft selling keyboards and mice? That's unheard of! Look, the fact that you don't get ports that cater to your system of choice doesn't give you the right to use a device that upsets the balance of the game. If you want to use it in single-player, be my guest, but if you want to use it in multiplayer, you're no better than a Javelin glitcher in MW2 or a U-boater in BC2. As I said before, if you don't want to play fairly, what's the point in playing at all?CEOrko

Why would I want to play a game when the more abundant controller type makes that impossible?There is no clause in any of LIVE's user agreements that states one can not use unlicensed, third-party peripherals to interact with the console. Your comparison is a fair one, however, if such glitches are not subject to official opposition in that everyone has the option of using a XIM without breaking any actual rules, provided they aren't foolish enough to insist on using them in events whose guidelines specifically label such devices as illegal, much like the situation surrounding Razer's Onza and MLG use.

Fairness is quite the odd concept. What if I were to play on a CRT versus others using PVA/MVA panels with 30ms-120ms more input lag than myself? Or perhaps I happen to live next to one of LIVE's matchmaking servers, and always receive host as a result. Maybe I have a 5.1 surround sound system, and can accurately track players through audio alone. Or suppose I was missing one or both of my thumbs and could not properly manipulate the standard dual-analog joystick gamepad. Even more obscure, what ifI was partially paralyzed or born with some defect that hindered my ability to use my hands? What if I were born with vastly superior genetics when compared to most, that I possessed what bordered on being an inhuman reaction speed?Would it be fair that circumstance had placed me at an advantage or disadvantage in these situations? The answer is the same when asking if using the XIM is fair to use against players using controllers.

The idea of a level playing field even existing is a bad joke. Limiting any one variable merely presents a different set of problems also based on circumstance. When you allow people to choose what works best for them, you will always end up with a greater percentage of individuals hitting their respective peaks.

So many big words, when you could have just skipped to the end and agreed that my point is valid.

One can butter up the truth all he likes, but at the end of the day you're still using a 3rd party device to assist you. You may be correcting for lack of profiency with a controller (still taking that explanation with a grain of salt), but even then it'll still be a case in the minority.

If a console intends you to use kb/m, then it would have provided kb/m support. If not, then it's not different than using a rapidfire mod or outright hacking. Now you may argue that it's "not as bad" as hacking, but the intent is the same.

Gxgear

Really? They all seemed so short to me. Overly-long sentences, I can agree to, but I don't think I ever broke five syllables in that post.

I agreed only to the XIM providing the same advantage one gets from joystick modifications, considering that is all that is happening, albeit at an electronic level. I wonder if you are as adamantly opposed to the use of Duke sticks or FPS Freeks. The advantage either offers is, to a lesser extent, the same that is allowed by a XIM. And of course I'm being assisted—It is rather hard to play without an input device. Mine just happens to be different from your own in shape and physical function. The truth of the matter is I'm still using a joystick. It is simply one that slides over available flat surface area while constantly trying to re-center itself. Oh, how I do wish I had actual mouse support, but then that would be undeniably broken. As it stands, I'm still limited to what the gamepad is already capable of doing. That the majority of users don't quite mesh well enough with it to reach that peak of performance sounds more like a design flaw on Microsoft's part than reason for anyone to force such inadequacies upon themselves.

I'm not in the habit of letting my hardware make decisions for me, but concerning your final point: Unlike the XIMs, the macros used in your mentioned "rapidfire mod" are specifically labeled as a breach of LIVE's Terms of Use, as are the console hardware modifications required to enable wallhacks on the system. They clearly aren't the same thing, if the reasoning of the company you seem to trust so much is to be held true. According to Microsoft, I'm well within my rights as a user. Surely they would have opposed such adapters if they did not wish for them to be used with their console.

False equivalence. We're not talking about network latency, which will impact everyone at some point. We're not talking about host advantage, which while unpleasant, is a necessary evil of peer-to-peer gaming. When you can show me that display latency or surround sound have the same effect on game outcome as a mouse-and-keyboard vs. a gamepad, then we'll talk. And you still haven't satisfactorily answered the question: why not just play on a PC where this is welcomed? It's like bringing a crate of paint grenades to a Saturday afternoon at the paintball field: sure, it's not against the rules, but after using a couple, you'll be asked to leave them off the field or not come back in the future. When I'm playing, I don't open up my full-auto on people, because they're playing on rental guns and it'd be unsportsmanlike to sit there and hose them with paint until one round gets through. I simply don't see the entertainment value in attempting to make the game unbalanced in your favor.lowe0

The nonexistence of a level playing field was merely an enjoyable aside meant to dissuade posts from revisiting that flawed concept. We're talking about advantages based on allowed hardware available to any user. Displays and speaker systems fit nicely in to this category and your request of both is unrealistic, given the advantage either can offer is too different in application to be directly measured against that of varying control schemes. A mouse does not allow me to count and track the movement of terrorist players along mid and long-A from dust2's CT-spawn as a good soundcard and headphones can. Nor will it keep me from rounding a corner and dying before the image has even been displayed on my monitor when dealing with high LCD input lag. I use a mouse emulating the joystick because it allows me to play a game instead of fumbling with the controls. Others have the option to do the same. That paintball field you imagine isn't asking anything besides that you continue to follow the rules and keep paying the price of admission.

To answer your question, although I feel I made it fairly obvious before, I have no intention of playing the console version of a game over the PC counterpart when doing so is what I consider to be reasonably worth the avoidance. Keep in mind that not every game is released in a timely manner to my preferred platform, and some not at all. If I wish to play these games, be they an Armored Core with my flight sim gear, or a Halo with a mouse and keypad, I'll not let the complaints of a few players—against a perfectly legitimate control scheme, no less—stop me from doing so. As I've stated before, though not here, I'd willingly remain in the mouse section of a split matchmaking list if actual support were enabled. I don't care about the competition, all I want is to not have to think about where I'm putting my fingers when playing. I find the standard gamepad layout to be unintuitive and impractical when used in the FPS genre, and the serenity granted me by a more familiar control scheme far outweighs any negative impact a lessening of competition might have.

Tempting, but it is pretty much cheating. Although, Killzone would be much less of a clustery mess of random shooting at times with a mouse.

You know, I reread the entire thread, and I still don't see an answer to one question: if you insist on choosing your own input device instead of using the one the developer balanced the game on, then why not play it on a platform that natively permits that?

The weapon damage and accuracy on a console FPS is balanced for all players to be using the same input device, whether that device is a gamepad or a motion controller. If you're not willing to play by the rules, then why play at all?

lowe0

Yeah I'd consider it cheating. We all know controllers are gimp compared to M+KB in terms of FPS.

[QUOTE="lowe0"]

You know, I reread the entire thread, and I still don't see an answer to one question: if you insist on choosing your own input device instead of using the one the developer balanced the game on, then why not play it on a platform that natively permits that?

The weapon damage and accuracy on a console FPS is balanced for all players to be using the same input device, whether that device is a gamepad or a motion controller. If you're not willing to play by the rules, then why play at all?

KHAndAnime

I believe it qualifies as an unfair advantage in regards to the platform. ferret-gamer

Definitely, the vids the TC put in his OP just shows how much of an advantage it is.

Lots of first time posters in the thread. How odd.

Hate it, do consider it cheating.locopatho

How is this cheating?

Control pads are much more accurate than mouses anyways...

DerpyMcDerp

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. I have heard it all.

Unless you're trolling ;).

[QUOTE="Gxgear"]

So many big words, when you could have just skipped to the end and agreed that my point is valid.

One can butter up the truth all he likes, but at the end of the day you're still using a 3rd party device to assist you. You may be correcting for lack of profiency with a controller (still taking that explanation with a grain of salt), but even then it'll still be a case in the minority.

If a console intends you to use kb/m, then it would have provided kb/m support. If not, then it's not different than using a rapidfire mod or outright hacking. Now you may argue that it's "not as bad" as hacking, but the intent is the same.

CEOrko

Really? They all seemed so short to me. Overly-long sentences, I can agree to, but I don't think I ever broke five syllables in that post.

I agreed only to the XIM providing the same advantage one gets from joystick modifications, considering that is all that is happening, albeit at an electronic level. I wonder if you are as adamantly opposed to the use of Duke sticks or FPS Freeks. The advantage either offers is, to a lesser extent, the same that is allowed by a XIM. And of course I'm being assisted—It is rather hard to play without an input device. Mine just happens to be different from your own in shape and physical function. The truth of the matter is I'm still using a joystick. It is simply one that slides over available flat surface area while constantly trying to re-center itself. Oh, how I do wish I had actual mouse support, but then that would be undeniably broken. As it stands, I'm still limited to what the gamepad is already capable of doing. That the majority of users don't quite mesh well enough with it to reach that peak of performance sounds more like a design flaw on Microsoft's part than reason for anyone to force such inadequacies upon themselves.

I'm not in the habit of letting my hardware make decisions for me, but concerning your final point: Unlike the XIMs, the macros used in your mentioned "rapidfire mod" are specifically labeled as a breach of LIVE's Terms of Use, as are the console hardware modifications required to enable wallhacks on the system. They clearly aren't the same thing, if the reasoning of the company you seem to trust so much is to be held true. According to Microsoft, I'm well within my rights as a user. Surely they would have opposed such adapters if they did not wish for them to be used with their console.

Hold up a minute. So until someone in a position of power draws a specific line you're unable (or don't care) to tell right from wrong? Amazing, that type of thinking is almost...sociopathic. :?

You're really reaching there by trying to relate grip-its accessories with a 3rd party input device. I don't know why you spend so much time trying to explain how the XIM3 works, when it's completely irrelevant - the bottom line is you're still giving yourself an advatange. Trying to argue how much of an advantage it actually gives you is moot, because it's purely justification from that point and on.

Still seeing you admitting to XIM3 giving the user an advantage, so until you can prove it doesn't (which you can't, and have already surrendered that part of the argument) then there's not much else to talk about.

Hey folks, have you heard of a little thing called "Capitalism"? The guy with the money is ALWAYS going to have better stuff than you, and this will, in turn, improve his way of (Life, Gaming, Relaxing, you name it. Insert topic). It's just beyond me how you Anti-M/KBists think your arguments are so solid, and how you really think this is so horrible. Is this about winning? Can you not just enjoy the game as it is, without Raging when you don't do well? If you are so concerned with winning, clearly, the only option is for you to step-up and "Git-Them-Sum", or become a better gamepad user. Become a better player, or become a better consumerist =D That's all this comes down to. Don't hate on a fella for having more money/sense than you!MooJuicer_

Just get a PC, if you buy this item for gaming you clearly wanted to get a PC but got a poor man's pc instead (xbox 360).
And yes it's cheating because games are designed with controllers in mind and difficulty of shooters is lower on consoles than on PC.
And it's clearly cheating if you use it for competitive online gameplay.

Locutus_Picard