Sony really dropped the ball with the Pro

All that exists but the software layer that makes something like UWP possible also exists and it has to be dealt with. Games don't optimize themselves on different hardware configurations by magic there needs to be a common abstracted layer than can then make things more and more specific and that's a burden a developer that deals with just one hardware platform doesn't have.

@dakur: Stop being silly for the sake of being silly. API handles this. Games run better on stronger hardware without the need for patching because of the API. That has been proven time and time again with Microsoft, Apple and Google. The Pro, does not follow that ease of transition even when it's sporting the same architecture with more processing and only more processing. Don't pretend that this is a standard problem because Sony botch the Pro by not thinking ahead with the PS4 design.

Out of curiosity, do you have a 4K screen or PS VR??

I would think that's where you'll really get the benefits of a PS4 Pro.

IMO, the biggest mistake Sony made was leaving out the UHD BluRay player.

The console itself is descent enough but for $400 it should also have a UHD player.

You're apparently the one completely ignorant of software development. Yes APIs handle this layer but it highly depends on the quality and capabilities of the API how it is translated into the different hardware architectures. APIs are abstractions of the hardware capabilities and with more hardware configurations APIs have to sacrifice more specific optimizations, this is software development 101. That's the same reason why the more abstracted a programming language is the less efficient it usually is. The abstraction takes a toll on efficiency for particular cases. A dev working with APIs that are more specialized for a specific hardware configuration will have an optimization advantage.

Bloodborne and The Witcher 3 not getting a PS4 Pro update is on the devs, not Sony. It's a bit unfortunate how certain games were updated and some weren't but the devs are the ones that decided not to use their resources to update the game. Ex. CDPR is too busy working on their latest games to update The Witcher on PS4 Pro.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-09-19-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-will-not-support-playstation-4-pro-features

And I wouldn't exactly call the list of supported PS4 Pro games paper thin. A good amount of games that released in the fall received updates in addition to the "launch" list. Either way, most major releases that are releasing in the first 3 months of 2017 are going to be PS4 Pro enhanced like Gravity Rush 2, Resi 7, For Honor, Nioh, Hozion Zero Dawn, Sniper Elite 4, Mass Effect Andromeda, Ghost Recon: Wildlands, Nier etc.

@Pedro: no games to back it up tho.... That's what is going to hurt Ms

LOL another one of cows teh elite First partiezzzzzz bullshit. Funny how Ryse out the gate shat all over Crapzone: Shadow Fail while being on a 50% weaker console and how BF1 is still the best looking game on the platform and performs better as compared to any First Party offering. Also remember how all last gen Crysis 2 and 3 shat all over Sony First Party and that's the reason cows still hate Crytek.

The biggest mistake of these upgrade consoles be it ps4 pro or Scorpio is that they decided to compete with PC in a department(graphics) where they won't ever be able to touch it.

Instead they should have aimed for 60fps to enhance the gaming experience. In my opinion these upgrades are just wasted opportunity and power.

Please tell me that you are kidding... if you think SONY "doesn't know" if there is going to be a PS5 then I have a bridge to sell you. They are in the midst of trying to sell PS4's and the much newer PS4 pro. They wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot and reveal ANYTHING about the PS5 (which would block current sales)... including that there will even be one until the time is right to do so.

There will be a PS5. I know it, you know it, and SONY for damn sure knows it. You can just call me Witstrodamus...

You don't stop making new product at the height of success. The Pro was little more than to try and push that stupid ass VR.. We may or may not see half steps in the future, but there is no way in hell that SONY would mask the PlayStations true identity and stop making full step increments... at least not in the foreseeable future. Believe what you want... hell take a screen shot and quote me. It wouldn't be the first time I served up heaping piles of crow and it wont be the last.

As it stands, It's the biggest flop of the gen (about 10% sold around DEC)

During the holiday season, parents prefered the OG PS4.

my current best buy as of a few days ago has a good 5 or so open box ones (returned of whatever reason)

and the lack of 4k player is actually hurting it, despite what cows said.

basically, TCHBO.

I love the deviation from the point that you are conveniently avoiding. You have indicated in previous posts that your knowledge of this is limited and you lack substantial programming experience and that you would not consider yourself a software programmer. So, with that said I can say that your ignorance is not only genuine but also bias because the reality is not fitting into your weak argument.

There are developers with more abilities than others. Crytek is a very talented dev graphic-wise but so are Guerrilla Games and Naughty Dog. Guerrilla Games and Naughty Dog games win graphic awards all the time. Also Ryse was initially exclusive which, as I said, helps with optimization but MS won't have that luxury with the Scorpio. How linear or open and game is also affects how visually impressive it is. And finally are you comparing Crysis 2 and 3 on PC?? Of course those will look better than any Sony first party since PCs have more resources. Still Sony first party achieves impressive graphical results which works for Sony as advertisement. UC2 and KZ2 made quite an impact last gen when they were released and were generally praised for the graphics. All Sony needs is good publicity with games that look really well to counter Scorpio's publicity on release and there's a big chance they'll have that.

Yup, I remember him stating that too.

He's just a desperate cow who's pretty butthurt about the Scorpios potential to slaughter his beloved PS4POO

At this point I am entirely convinced that Scorpio was on the books before the PlayStation 4 Pro, Sony found out about it, got information from their sources inside Microsoft, and tried to get what they thought was a comparable product out first. At this point I assume that Microsoft found out that Sony knew what they were building so they went back to the drawing board incognito to revise Scorpio's specifications, something Sony didn't find out. Two weeks before Scorpio was announced Sony realized they completely missed their mark when information started to leak, their information about the system was wrong and that is why they didn't announce the Pro at E3, but rather quietly at that disastrous PlayStation Meeting to save themselves the embarrassment.

It's not that the PlayStation 4 Pro is exactly "half-assed", but rather Sony thought it would be enough to combat Microsoft's system and were 100% wrong, that is why Scorpio did not release last year, that is why Microsoft delayed it, they stopped development to revise it and one up Sony.

Its not called PS4Poo for nothing.

at the blu-ray forum i read. there was a mass disappointment for lack of 4k player.

sony made a big sacrifice to make the system 399$

OMG let me put it to you as if I were explaining this to a 4 year old.

You have two situations where you have to create two APIs:

Situation 1: you have two machines, one machine has 4 spaces for storing data and the other only two spaces. You want to describe a protocol (API) that, no matters on which machine it runs, stores 3 units of data on both machines and uses that data to make a sequential task. What do needs to know and how will it function?

Situation 2: you only have one machine with only 2 spaces of data and you need a protocol for this machine that does the the same (store and use 3 units of data) as the one above. What does needs to know and how will it function?

Situation 1: you first need to figure out how much space the machine you're in has (step 1). Once you know that, if you're on the one with 4 spaces you store all 3 units (step 2.1). And then use them (step 3.1). If you're on the one with 2 spaces you need to store only 2 units (step 2.2) use one or two units (step 3.2), delete one or both (step 4.2), copy the missing unit (step 5.2), use it (step 6.2).

So in situation 1 we need a protocol that needs to handle the problem with 8 different steps.

Situation 2: You don't need to figure out how much space the machine you're on has, you already know so you skip this step and go directly to the second branch of the above process. You need to store only 2 units (step 1.2) use one or two units (step 2.2), delete one or both (step 3.2), copy the missing unit (step 4.2), use it (step 5.2).

In situation 2 the protocol described has to handle only 5 steps since it doesn't need additional overhead from deciding on which machine it is and how to best fit resources on it.

This is the difference, in the end the second situation is saving in time resources since it needs an API with less steps (less abstraction). On software any additional steps are important for optimization. Hell even how you arrange a sequence of numbers can make huge differences in time and efficiency for some compilers so everything counts.

And even if I don't consider myself a full fledged software developer I have developed enough to understand this. I have developed applications on C that require you to be very specific and optimize processes as much as possible. In fact when you're dealing with data processing applications like I do cutting corners and doing things faster and more efficiently is important so programming for a specific hardware is normally more efficient than doing a program that works wherever.

What kind of expertise do you even have? because it seems you know nothing about how computers work.

SHUHEI YOSHIDA Said that he wasn't sure if PS5 would happen like last year. Both MS/Sony saw this gen isn't revolutionary like they did for Xbox 260/PS3, this gen is a wrap for any next-gen consoles and the only next-gen were getting is Nintendo Switch. PS4 Pro just came out, Sony be stupid to announce PS5 this year or even next year if there's any shred of evidence PS5 is in development at all.

This is what SHUHEI YOSHIDA said on regarding PS5

WOW, that was a whole lot of nothing. I am sorry you are wasting so much time trying to find reasoning to your nonsensical argument. Lets simplify this so that you don't waste this much time in the future.

A game that was designed for X amount of resources(Storage space, RAM more specifically) would continue to consume the same amount of resources regardless of the availability of more. However, if the system is more powerful then the game should be able to take advantage of the additional processing power without the need for a patch. This has worked on many systems ranging from phones, video cards, tablets and processors. This is a really simple concept that you are avoiding and pretending that is requires deep knowledge of the developer to implement. The way in which Sony is currently handling it is by underclocking the system which is a rather silly approach. The only time this become a problem is if the developer foolish locks their game to the system performance and not have a basic check and balance to insure their game performs consistently regardless of performance. This described problem has not presented itself any of the modern games and it shows with the locked framerates on the PC version. So, that is definitely not a problem.

Can you understand such a simple concept? Jumping into memory allocation is just babbling and pretending to know what the hell you are talking about.

My expertise is that I am game developer and 3d artist. I teach game development and game art at the university level.

That's what you get with a half-assed system.

I like it, others can enjoy their Plebstations and Jaggieboxes lolz.

It's vastly improved visuals in VR games, and a lot of PS4 games I play. Very happy with mine.

I like my pro but **** it opinions n shit.

@Pedro: A 3d artist? Do you actually do any programming at all? Games are not only about fps there's a lot of hidden processes that happen for them to run in such a thing, memory allocation is one such process and one that an API has to handle or do you think it all happens by magic? Do you know how complicated is a GPU memory structure and how different from AMD and Nvidia do memory allocation and resources are used. I had to program in Cuda too so I know things are quite complex. Now an API that has to handle different hardware vendors with different hardware specifications will be much more abstracted than one that has to deal with one. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? is not a complex subject or rocket science. Tell me if the API is all you need to make a game work as efficiently as possible why doesn't Sony use DirectX or OpenGL directly instead of custom API? I mean if their architecture is so traditional wouldn't a regular API work? Well, FYI, Sony is adapting the existing APIs to their architecture and optimizing them. They don't need to use the whole API with all its optimization processes for different architectures and just use a subset and optimize them for their own hardware. You are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about and certainly being a 3d artist doesn't make you understand how software works as is obvious.

You are full on out in left field today.

@flyincloud1116 said:

@dynamitecop said:

At this point I am entirely convinced that Scorpio was on the books before the PlayStation 4 Pro, Sony found out about it, got information from their sources inside Microsoft, and tried to get what they thought was a comparable product out first. At this point I assume that Microsoft found out that Sony knew what they were building so they went back to the drawing board incognito to revise Scorpio's specifications, something Sony didn't find out. Two weeks before Scorpio was announced Sony realized they completely missed their mark when information started to leak, their information about the system was wrong and that is why they didn't announce the Pro at E3, but rather quietly at that disastrous PlayStation Meeting to save themselves the embarrassment.

It's not that the PlayStation 4 Pro is exactly "half-assed", but rather Sony thought it would be enough to combat Microsoft's system and were 100% wrong, that is why Scorpio did not release last year, that is why Microsoft delayed it, they stopped development to revise it and one up Sony.

You are full on out in left field today.

That's every day for him.

The most damning thing is the restriction to prevent non-patched games to benefit from the more powerful hardware. Getting the same framerate issues in games like Bloodborne on a so-called premium PS4 is nothing short of disgusting.

As disgusted as I am, it didn't stop me from buying one since similar to my hardware on PC I expect my console hardware to be top of the line as well, no matter how marginal the benefit. Ultimately the net price for the upgrade was very low (around $140 USD), having sold my old PS4 at a fairly high price before Pro release, and bought a Pro at boxing date discounts.

Let's be honest Sony has the raw talent that can make up for what they don't have. Sony first party games will look just as good if not better than any Scorpio game.

Yep I think Sony knows this and that's why they risked it with the Pro. They basically were focusing on keeping a low price tag and they will probably beat the Scorpio again like the PS4 did with the xbone. Smart strategy from Sony

@dakur: And you'll keep swearing you're a manticore.

@n64dd said:

@flyincloud1116 said:

@dynamitecop said:

At this point I am entirely convinced that Scorpio was on the books before the PlayStation 4 Pro, Sony found out about it, got information from their sources inside Microsoft, and tried to get what they thought was a comparable product out first. At this point I assume that Microsoft found out that Sony knew what they were building so they went back to the drawing board incognito to revise Scorpio's specifications, something Sony didn't find out. Two weeks before Scorpio was announced Sony realized they completely missed their mark when information started to leak, their information about the system was wrong and that is why they didn't announce the Pro at E3, but rather quietly at that disastrous PlayStation Meeting to save themselves the embarrassment.

It's not that the PlayStation 4 Pro is exactly "half-assed", but rather Sony thought it would be enough to combat Microsoft's system and were 100% wrong, that is why Scorpio did not release last year, that is why Microsoft delayed it, they stopped development to revise it and one up Sony.

You are full on out in left field today.

That's every day for him.

Yeah, as if that doesn't seem like a completely plausible and likely situation for what actually took place...

What reason would Sony have to release a revised refresh console if not based upon something reactionary coming out of Microsoft? There is none, they had no reason to release something better than the PlayStation 4, Microsoft did, and Sony couldn't just allow them to do that and leave them behind.

He doesn't even own multiple systems so it's simply not possible, if anyone is up for that position in the real world I would be one of the few.

@dynamitecop said:

@n64dd said:

@flyincloud1116 said:

@dynamitecop said:

At this point I am entirely convinced that Scorpio was on the books before the PlayStation 4 Pro, Sony found out about it, got information from their sources inside Microsoft, and tried to get what they thought was a comparable product out first. At this point I assume that Microsoft found out that Sony knew what they were building so they went back to the drawing board incognito to revise Scorpio's specifications, something Sony didn't find out. Two weeks before Scorpio was announced Sony realized they completely missed their mark when information started to leak, their information about the system was wrong and that is why they didn't announce the Pro at E3, but rather quietly at that disastrous PlayStation Meeting to save themselves the embarrassment.

It's not that the PlayStation 4 Pro is exactly "half-assed", but rather Sony thought it would be enough to combat Microsoft's system and were 100% wrong, that is why Scorpio did not release last year, that is why Microsoft delayed it, they stopped development to revise it and one up Sony.

You are full on out in left field today.

That's every day for him.

Yeah, as if that doesn't seem like a completely plausible and likely situation for what actually took place...

@Juub1990 said:

@dakur: And you'll keep swearing you're a manticore.

He doesn't even own multiple systems so it's simply not possible, if anyone is up for that position in the real world I would be one of the few.

I will give you that. You own more consoles than probably 90 percent of the board. I just question if you would marry your xbox it it was legal :P

I'd say more like 99%, there's only a select few others I know around here who have a comparable amount or in excess.

You forget all too easily that this is a forum, not real life, not the way we actually act, it's internet persona.

Like an undercover cop or fire man?

Like, the way I act here is hyperbolic.

LOL there is no way you can read minds.

@n64dd said:

@dynamitecop said:

@n64dd said:

@flyincloud1116 said:

@dynamitecop said:

At this point I am entirely convinced that Scorpio was on the books before the PlayStation 4 Pro, Sony found out about it, got information from their sources inside Microsoft, and tried to get what they thought was a comparable product out first. At this point I assume that Microsoft found out that Sony knew what they were building so they went back to the drawing board incognito to revise Scorpio's specifications, something Sony didn't find out. Two weeks before Scorpio was announced Sony realized they completely missed their mark when information started to leak, their information about the system was wrong and that is why they didn't announce the Pro at E3, but rather quietly at that disastrous PlayStation Meeting to save themselves the embarrassment.

It's not that the PlayStation 4 Pro is exactly "half-assed", but rather Sony thought it would be enough to combat Microsoft's system and were 100% wrong, that is why Scorpio did not release last year, that is why Microsoft delayed it, they stopped development to revise it and one up Sony.

You are full on out in left field today.

That's every day for him.

Yeah, as if that doesn't seem like a completely plausible and likely situation for what actually took place...

@Juub1990 said:

@dakur: And you'll keep swearing you're a manticore.

He doesn't even own multiple systems so it's simply not possible, if anyone is up for that position in the real world I would be one of the few.

I will give you that. You own more consoles than probably 90 percent of the board. I just question if you would marry your xbox it it was legal :P

HAHAHA! Too late! :)

Dropped the ball and 50 million + don't go together hmmm

Ah well, love my Pro!

$100 premium over the base PS4 really isn't that much when you consider the better resolution, frame rates and bigger HDD. Games like Tomb Raider and Hitman are a much better experience on the Pro.

Relative to the PlayStation 4 it's not bad, relative to everything around it and what is coming, it's a shortsighted beta state product.

Scorpio isn't that much better. 42% better GPU is basically XB1 - PS4 gap.

Not if it continues to be the cheapest alternative to 4k which I assume Sony is aiming at this year. By the time Scorpio releases they will be in the position to drop the price of the Pro and market it as a cheap alternative with similar results. Sony made a smart strategic move with the Pro since the bulk of console gamers care more about price than power.

Exactly, people will see a possible $50 - $100 price gap and choose the Pro.

That's just the GPU, that doesn't account for 50% more RAM, 102 Gbps higher memory bandwidth, and the high likelihood of a much better CPU etc.

Also, while it's still in the same ballpark 40-42% difference in GPU gap, it's elevated in terms of compute difference.

PlayStation 4 > Xbox One = 530 Gigaflops (440 Gigaflops Xbox One S)

Xbox Scorpio > PlayStation 4 Pro = 1.8 Teraflops

The price gap doesn't matter if the system which costs $50-$100 more is a considerably better product. You're not paying $50-$100 less for an identical piece of machinery, you're paying less for something inferior.

That's like saying a Camaro Z28 is a better deal and costs less than a Mustang GT500, of course it costs less, it's an inferior car.

I am programmer and I have programmed for games and I have done shader programming for these games. Your focus on memory allocation is a deviation from the point because its convenient and also irrelevant. The fact that you CANNOT dispute; regardless of how much your try, is that a developer does not need to customize or curtail their game to take advantage of more processing power if they are writing directly to the graphics API or in general for the CPU. Its the reason Opengl and DirectX exist, to alleviate the stresses of lower level programming.

So, back to the point is that the Pro would NOT have an advantage over Scorpio due to it being released a year earlier and developers having a better understanding of the hardware. The fact is the hardware is common and well documented. Its simply a faster version of the PS4 ONLY. There is no additional RAM to the system. There is no new process to the system its simply an upgrade with underclocking for games that are not "patched".

Making random shit up does not make it true NOR does it validate your asinine point. Try again. This time a bit harder.

yeah, a 4K gamig machine without native 4K abilities or a 4K Blu-ray player

still, I wish I waited a year and got a Pro instead of a vanilla PS4

I am well aware of this outdated post by a person that had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain by keeping the PS5 under wraps both then and now. Why in the hell would he talk about the PS5 when the PS4 was just starting to gain a lot of traction and pull away from the X1? Refer to my former post. It's all about the bottom line.. and the bottom line is money. The PS4 is killing it and the pro is a HALF STEP (as stated in about a million different cover stories). The next "half step" is a new console generation. Sony itself has stated that they plan to continue on in a regular fashion as they always have following the PS4 pro, without technically saying a PS5 is coming... however, they said everything BUT those exact words.

There WILL be a PS5 unless something drastic happens between now and the next year or two (which is entirely possible in theory)((Obviously this is just my thoughts on the subject, but it's a reasonably informed assumption)). If you are a betting man then lets put something on the line... hell, I'll give you 3:1 odds. What are you saying the chances of it NOT happening are? Like 10, 20 30%?

Do you truly believe there wont be a PS5? Like seriously... there is no way you can truly believe that. Now... if the Scorpio tanks and someone said MS might pull out of the race then I would say there is a good chance, but I still wouldn't bet the house on it.

Whatever though... perhaps you will be right.

Either way until they officially announce that there wont be one, I'm on the "there is no way in hell there wont be a PS5" side of the fence. I guess only time will tell, but I would be MORE than shocked to say the least.