Super Smash Bros. Brawl can't be classified as a competitive fighting game

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princeofshapeir

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#1 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

...I don't think Brawl can be classified as a fighting game. Note that this doesn't mean that Brawl is a "fun" game - it is. But when someone claims that it's a competitive fighting game, they're completely, totally wrong.

Here's why: lack of character balance, signature advanced/competitive techniques from previous games have been either removed or dumbed down, combos are nearly impossible, and the game doesn't really reward true skill.

As far as character balancing goes, there are certain characters which are almost guaranteed to win against other characters. For example, Meta Knight vs. Captain Falcon: Meta Knight has extremely high priority, numerous air recovery moves, hits fast, and has several easily spammable moves. Captain Falcon, on the other hand, suffered from the physics change in Brawl and has very slow moves with lots of startup and finishing lag, terribly low priority, and a lack of combo-starting moves. Even if the Captain Falcon player is very skilled, and the Meta Knight player knows what he's doing or has some level of skill, it's almost guaranteed that the MK will win. In Melee or Smash 64, it was possible for two players of equal skill levels to play characters that had opposite positions on tier lists and still fight a very even match. There's no questioning that several characters in Brawl are definitely broken - Meta Knight, Snake - or nearly unplayable for competitive play - Link, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon. In Melee, however, there isn't really a broken, win-all character. Sure, Marth and Fox are at the top of the tier list, but a highly skilled Falcon or Link can still go toe-to-toe with a highly skilled Marth. Isai mained Falcon in Melee, and Ken mained Marth. The two were considered to be the best competitive Melee players, and they were evenly matched, even if Ken was a little better. The point is that skill isn't what determines most matches in Brawl - the character you choose does. For once in Smash games, the Tier list actually has a more prominent role in deciding which character to main.

Brawl also lacks the advanced techniques prominent in SSB64 and most importantly Melee. Wavedashing, moonwalking, l-canceling (Brawl autocancels for you), dashdancing (dashdancing can still be performed in Brawl, but there are less frames to do it in and tripping basically kills the point of doing it), hitstun (lack of hitstun = lack of combos in Brawl, unless you consider chaingrabbing to be comboing), and numerous other character-specific advanced techniques are stripped from Brawl. Why does this matter? Well, hitstun allowed for true comboing in Melee, and wavedashing, l-canceling/SHFFL, and moonwalking constituted skill in Melee. It took very fast reflexes to be able to pull off perfect combos while using these techniques, and thus requires a lot of skill from the player. In Brawl, the game takes out all of these features, mostly due to the new physics change, and the game cancels some of your aerials (but usually not f-airs) for you. And before you say, "But those advanced moves were just physics glitches/exploits that made the game uneven and unfair!" keep in mind that other fighting games also have advanced techniques and exploits that are featured in the competitive scene of the game. Besides, I'd consider a true "glitch" to be Snakedashing in Brawl (using Snake's dash attack, and immediately after it connects with another character, canceling it into upsmash and sliding across the platform), or Meta Knight's infinity cloak, not wavedashing and moonwalking.

I don't think Brawl really rewards people attempting to play with true skill. Classic example: you can have a very good Fox player going against an Ike, but since Ike is known for his hard-hitting Smash moves, you're going to see some epic C-stick spamming. Thus, the game as I mentioned before is much more character-oriented, and you're pretty much determined the outcome of a match based on which character you choose to play as. If you're in a tournament (do they even do Brawl tournaments anymore?) and you're a really good Falco player, but someone else chooses Meta Knight and is also really good, you'd be really lucky to win.

Again, just because Brawl can't be classified as a fighting game doesn't mean it's not fun. It is. But when the game lacks all of the competitive techniques and lacks the character balance from its predecessors, its competitive gameplay is severely broken. Melee and Smash64 can be considered true competitive Smash games - not Brawl.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#2 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

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Ribnarak

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#3 Ribnarak
Member since 2008 • 2299 Posts

whether or not you think the game "rewards" you if you have skill does not determine its genre.

IF my freind and Ichoose two characters, and are supposed to hit each other in anyway for the sole purpose of winning. It is a fighting game.

This Thread fails TC, sorry to break it to you and ure wall of text.

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princeofshapeir

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#4 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

LegatoSkyheart
There are still glitches and exploits in Brawl that are far more cheap and broken than simple wavedashing and moonwalking in Melee.
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princeofshapeir

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#5 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

whether or not you think the game "rewards" you if you have skill does not determine its genre.

IF me and my freind choose two characters, and are supposed to hit each other in anyway for the sole purpose of winning. It is a fighting game.

This Thread fails TC, sorry to break it to you and ure wall of text.

Ribnarak

I didn't say it wasn't a fighting game. The key word here is "competitive". Perhaps if you read my entire post, you'd realize that I'm trying to say that Brawl is still a fighting game, but that it doesn't have the same level of competitive play that Smash 64 and Melee do.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#6 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

princeofshapeir

There are still glitches and exploits in Brawl that are far more cheap and broken than simple wavedashing and moonwalking in Melee.

point one out for me.

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Infinite_Access

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#7 Infinite_Access
Member since 2007 • 2483 Posts

It would have been great to play online. If their servers weren't ******* broken!

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yoshi_64

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#8 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts
Look at the competitive brawl community and say otherwise. There is some skill to be had in playing brawl, and even if you choose a character with the best matchup, if you don't know how to use that character, you won't win. I main Yoshi in lots of my battles, and I have no trouble playing against other people, and winning against bad matchups even, but hey... it can't be because I just happen to know how to protect Yoshi's weaknesses. There are lots of fighting games I play where people just use some of the cheapest/best/popular characters. Whether it's Ken in SF IV, or Ryu in DoA 4, or Nu in BlazBlue, there's bound to be some imbalances. SSBB is no exception, but it still has a very deep competitive edge. It's not about flash super combos like in TvC or MvC, it's not about deep technical mechanics a la Virtua Fighter. It's a simple and intuitive design combat system layered with extra depth for those willing to play to that level. Just because it's accessible, doesnt make it not deep. You want a fighter with easily exploitable people and bad matchups, play Dissidia on PSP. Brawl has balance still, tiers like other fighters, and advance techniques (even to individual characters) that other fighters do too.
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princeofshapeir

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#9 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"][QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

LegatoSkyheart

There are still glitches and exploits in Brawl that are far more cheap and broken than simple wavedashing and moonwalking in Melee.

point one out for me.

I did in my post. Meta Knight's infinity cloak (banned by SBR), Snakedashing, and dash up-smash canceling in general.
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Legendaryscmt

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#10 Legendaryscmt
Member since 2005 • 12532 Posts

Any game could be considered competitive. Brawl might not be as competitive as Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat for example, but I have seen competitive matches before in Brawl.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#11 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"][QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

LegatoSkyheart

There are still glitches and exploits in Brawl that are far more cheap and broken than simple wavedashing and moonwalking in Melee.

point one out for me.

never mind my post I just remembered that everyone has a "Forever" Move (hold A and you'll get a turbo jab.)

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princeofshapeir

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#12 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts
Look at the competitive brawl community and say otherwise. There is some skill to be had in playing brawl, and even if you choose a character with the best matchup, if you don't know how to use that character, you won't win. I main Yoshi in lots of my battles, and I have no trouble playing against other people, and winning against bad matchups even, but hey... it can't be because I just happen to know how to protect Yoshi's weaknesses. There are lots of fighting games I play where people just use some of the cheapest/best/popular characters. Whether it's Ken in SF IV, or Ryu in DoA 4, or Nu in BlazBlue, there's bound to be some imbalances. SSBB is no exception, but it still has a very deep competitive edge. It's not about flash super combos like in TvC or MvC, it's not about deep technical mechanics a la Virtua Fighter. It's a simple and intuitive design combat system layered with extra depth for those willing to play to that level. Just because it's accessible, doesnt make it not deep. You want a fighter with easily exploitable people and bad matchups, play Dissidia on PSP. Brawl has balance still, tiers like other fighters, and advance techniques (even to individual characters) that other fighters do too. yoshi_64
I truly think that as Brawl+ nears its final release, it will get a larger tournament scene than Brawl. And I see nothing deep about Brawl's gameplay. It's just intentionally dumbed down. If you want a Smash game with deep gameplay, Melee says hi.
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Ribnarak

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#13 Ribnarak
Member since 2008 • 2299 Posts

[QUOTE="Ribnarak"]

whether or not you think the game "rewards" you if you have skill does not determine its genre.

IF me and my freind choose two characters, and are supposed to hit each other in anyway for the sole purpose of winning. It is a fighting game.

This Thread fails TC, sorry to break it to you and ure wall of text.

princeofshapeir

I didn't say it wasn't a fighting game. The key word here is "competitive". Perhaps if you read my entire post, you'd realize that I'm trying to say that Brawl is still a fighting game, but that it doesn't have the same level of competitive play that Smash 64 and Melee do.

Maybe you should rethink about making this thread.Whats teh difference between competitive fighting and non competitive fighting

WHen my friend and i play, we play in competition. i dont get ure thread.

OH and if you want some advice, maybe you should make the title: A comparison of the Super smash bros.

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VendettaRed07

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#14 VendettaRed07
Member since 2007 • 14012 Posts

Melee most definately was... but brawl is ridiculous. They took soo much of the skillful/hardcore techniques out in favour of overpowered cheap spamming moves. like 90% of the characters suck, metaknight is one of the most broken characters in fighting game history.

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princeofshapeir

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#15 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts
And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.
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Scythes777

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#16 Scythes777
Member since 2006 • 2796 Posts

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

LegatoSkyheart
This. First, almost every fighting game is unbalanced, and with a character roster of over 40, its hard to balance. Second, most of what made Melee more competitive were glitches that were removed from Brawl.
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LegatoSkyheart

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#17 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

I truly think that as Brawl+ princeofshapeir

That's a Hack. Level up by getting good at the actual game.

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yoshi_64

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#18 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"] There are still glitches and exploits in Brawl that are far more cheap and broken than simple wavedashing and moonwalking in Melee. LegatoSkyheart

point one out for me.

never mind my post I just remembered that everyone has a "Forever" Move (hold A and you'll get a turbo jab.)

Holding A merely does the repeated A mash attacks for people like Kirby or Fox, and just does the triple hit attack for those like Mario, Squirtle, and everyone else. It doesn't make the game any easier. You can hold A or just mash it, what difference does it change though? He seems to think the matchups means your character has no chance to win now, because somehow the level of skill won't matter. I think this person considers individual skill to be ineffective in any matchup. One example he gave was a user can C-stick spam Ike to victory. Thing is, Ike is easy to beat, predictable, has some bad recovery, and isn't the omni-god people think he is, if you know him. I used to main Ike, but I could beat any good Ike player I'd say with someone like Yoshi or Ice Climbers.
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LegatoSkyheart

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#19 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.princeofshapeir

And we're saying that Brawl is just as Competitive as those games.

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princeofshapeir

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#20 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]

[QUOTE="Ribnarak"]

whether or not you think the game "rewards" you if you have skill does not determine its genre.

IF me and my freind choose two characters, and are supposed to hit each other in anyway for the sole purpose of winning. It is a fighting game.

This Thread fails TC, sorry to break it to you and ure wall of text.

Ribnarak

I didn't say it wasn't a fighting game. The key word here is "competitive". Perhaps if you read my entire post, you'd realize that I'm trying to say that Brawl is still a fighting game, but that it doesn't have the same level of competitive play that Smash 64 and Melee do.

Maybe you should rethink about making this thread.Whats teh difference between competitive fighting and non competitive fighting

WHen my friend and i play, we play in competition. i dont get ure thread.

OH and if you want some advice, maybe you should make the title: A comparison of the Super smash bros.

1. I don't care what you and your friend do when playing Brawl. When I talk about competitive play, I'm talking about the tournament scene in which professional players compete based on skill.

2. Perhaps you should try reading entire original posts more often. Just reading the title and coming here to bash me doesn't quite cut it.

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Ribnarak

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#21 Ribnarak
Member since 2008 • 2299 Posts

And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.princeofshapeir

read your post carefully,

mind changing the title to:

SSBB isnt as competitive to the other Smash Bros.

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VendettaRed07

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#22 VendettaRed07
Member since 2007 • 14012 Posts

Like look how awesome this looks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-kPc0EL9sU&feature=related

If you really look at this closely there is a ton of strategy going on, and its being played at like 1000 mph.

Then there is this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YYyxnYVe_4&feature=related

This is slow, and its just a bunch of slamming back and forth.. Totally lame in comparison

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deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a

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#23 deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a
Member since 2008 • 26108 Posts
Ah but it doesn't matter what you say. It's played competitively, and therefore is a competitive fighting game.
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princeofshapeir

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#24 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.LegatoSkyheart

And we're saying that Brawl is just as Competitive as those games.

If that's really the case, Brawl should have a tournament scene that was just as big or bigger than Melee's, right? But it doesn't. Isai and numerous other Smashers don't play Brawl competitively, and while Ken sort of does, he prefers Melee much more when playing professionally. There are still Melee tournaments going on. If Brawl was truly as competitive as Melee, you would think that it would be featured far more often in tournaments.
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Sky-

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#25 Sky-
Member since 2010 • 4682 Posts

Agreed, I can't help but lol when someone tries to prove to me that Brawl is a competitive fighter when clearly it is not...If it really was, then there would be no reason why Brawl+ would be as popular as it is.

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yoshi_64

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#26 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts
[QUOTE="yoshi_64"]Look at the competitive brawl community and say otherwise. There is some skill to be had in playing brawl, and even if you choose a character with the best matchup, if you don't know how to use that character, you won't win. I main Yoshi in lots of my battles, and I have no trouble playing against other people, and winning against bad matchups even, but hey... it can't be because I just happen to know how to protect Yoshi's weaknesses. There are lots of fighting games I play where people just use some of the cheapest/best/popular characters. Whether it's Ken in SF IV, or Ryu in DoA 4, or Nu in BlazBlue, there's bound to be some imbalances. SSBB is no exception, but it still has a very deep competitive edge. It's not about flash super combos like in TvC or MvC, it's not about deep technical mechanics a la Virtua Fighter. It's a simple and intuitive design combat system layered with extra depth for those willing to play to that level. Just because it's accessible, doesnt make it not deep. You want a fighter with easily exploitable people and bad matchups, play Dissidia on PSP. Brawl has balance still, tiers like other fighters, and advance techniques (even to individual characters) that other fighters do too. princeofshapeir
I truly think that as Brawl+ nears its final release, it will get a larger tournament scene than Brawl. And I see nothing deep about Brawl's gameplay. It's just intentionally dumbed down. If you want a Smash game with deep gameplay, Melee says hi.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Melee. I played that game till practically Brawl came out, and even I hate some things about Brawl too like tripping and slower paced combat. However, I frankly feel the same reward of "satisfaction" from winning a competitive match as I would from Melee or SSBB. It is no different. Some people here just don't like the changes more, that's all I see. People complain about the differences because they were used to the other ways of play. Brawl to me doesn't ruin competition, it just changed how you should play compared to Melee or SSB. Who cares if you can't wave dance or do the other Melee techniques? Most fighting games that have continuous series tend to tweak their gameplay and remove exploits/techniques from their past games and do something else. Point in case, SF II to SF III. You know how much different the two play? It was still competitive, but it was played with some new techs, new rules, and new characters. Brawl is similar in that you don't use the same techs (Like SF II to SF III) but you have to come up with new techs and new ways to play. There's nothing wrong with the competitive aspect of Brawl, and I think these are just the words of people who really complain more than embrace the change.
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#27 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.Ribnarak

read your post carefully,

mind changing the title to:

SSBB isnt as competitive to the other Smash Bros.

No. "Competitive fighting game" is different from "fighting game". I'm still getting the same point across with either title.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#28 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

If that's really the case, Brawl should have a tournament scene that was just as big or bigger than Melee's, right? But it doesn't. Isai and numerous other Smashers don't play Brawl competitively, and while Ken sort of does, he prefers Melee much more when playing professionally. There are still Melee tournaments going on. If Brawl was truly as competitive as Melee, you would think that it would be featured far more often in tournaments.princeofshapeir

Dude Now you're just sounding like a kid that got his butt handed in a game and now he hates the game purely because he lost.

Brawl CAN be competitive. You're just not playing it competitively.

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yoshi_64

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#29 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts

Like look how awesome this looks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-kPc0EL9sU&feature=related

If you really look at this closely there is a ton of strategy going on, and its being played at like 1000 mph.

Then there is this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YYyxnYVe_4&feature=related

This is slow, and its just a bunch of slamming back and forth.. Totally lame in comparison

VendettaRed07
Meh both look lame in all honesty. I'm not one who gets excited watching others play. The thrill of fighting games for me is being in the moment, planning my attacks, watching my strategy unfold and hoping to best my opponent. When I watch other people play, it doesn't do anything for me, because it's the rush, the thrill of the moment, that gets me in fighting games, and to get that, I have to be in it.
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#30 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.princeofshapeir

:lol: I truly doubt you've even been to Brawl tournament.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#31 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

[QUOTE="Ribnarak"]

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]And really, everyone's missing the point here. Brawl is a fighting game, but it's not competitive compared to Melee and Smash 64. I'm not talking about other fighters here - specifically, the discussion is about the Smash games. The common conception held by most of the hardcore Smash community is that Brawl is the easier, more accessible, and dumbed-down game that doesn't reward skill as much as SSB64 or Melee do.princeofshapeir

read your post carefully,

mind changing the title to:

SSBB isnt as competitive to the other Smash Bros.

No. "Competitive fighting game" is different from "fighting game". I'm still getting the same point across with either title.

Dude what? Every Fighting game is competitive!

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princeofshapeir

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#32 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts
[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"][QUOTE="yoshi_64"]Look at the competitive brawl community and say otherwise. There is some skill to be had in playing brawl, and even if you choose a character with the best matchup, if you don't know how to use that character, you won't win. I main Yoshi in lots of my battles, and I have no trouble playing against other people, and winning against bad matchups even, but hey... it can't be because I just happen to know how to protect Yoshi's weaknesses. There are lots of fighting games I play where people just use some of the cheapest/best/popular characters. Whether it's Ken in SF IV, or Ryu in DoA 4, or Nu in BlazBlue, there's bound to be some imbalances. SSBB is no exception, but it still has a very deep competitive edge. It's not about flash super combos like in TvC or MvC, it's not about deep technical mechanics a la Virtua Fighter. It's a simple and intuitive design combat system layered with extra depth for those willing to play to that level. Just because it's accessible, doesnt make it not deep. You want a fighter with easily exploitable people and bad matchups, play Dissidia on PSP. Brawl has balance still, tiers like other fighters, and advance techniques (even to individual characters) that other fighters do too. yoshi_64
I truly think that as Brawl+ nears its final release, it will get a larger tournament scene than Brawl. And I see nothing deep about Brawl's gameplay. It's just intentionally dumbed down. If you want a Smash game with deep gameplay, Melee says hi.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Melee. I played that game till practically Brawl came out, and even I hate some things about Brawl too like tripping and slower paced combat. However, I frankly feel the same reward of "satisfaction" from winning a competitive match as I would from Melee or SSBB. It is no different. Some people here just don't like the changes more, that's all I see. People complain about the differences because they were used to the other ways of play. Brawl to me doesn't ruin competition, it just changed how you should play compared to Melee or SSB. Who cares if you can't wave dance or do the other Melee techniques? Most fighting games that have continuous series tend to tweak their gameplay and remove exploits/techniques from their past games and do something else. Point in case, SF II to SF III. You know how much different the two play? It was still competitive, but it was played with some new techs, new rules, and new characters. Brawl is similar in that you don't use the same techs (Like SF II to SF III) but you have to come up with new techs and new ways to play. There's nothing wrong with the competitive aspect of Brawl, and I think these are just the words of people who really complain more than embrace the change.

The point is that there aren't new techs in Brawl that all competitive players, no matter what character they main, use. There are just character-specific exploits that give an unfair advantage over other players that main different characters. And I played the crap out of Brawl when I bought it on March 13th, 2008. But since then, I've realized that it's not as competitive nor balanced as Melee. Combos are nearly impossible, and the general imbalance is astounding. Thus, when Brawl+ started rolling around, I switched to that. There isn't L-canceling, nor wavedashing, but the addition of hitstun and the speed increase alter gameplay dramatically to make it more fun and allow for true competitive play that is easily accessible. Brawl+ actually is Brawl done right, atleast if you want a true competitive experience.
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ShuichiChamp24

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#33 ShuichiChamp24
Member since 2009 • 5014 Posts

Agreed, I can't help but lol when someone tries to prove to me that Brawl is a competitive fighter when clearly it is not...If it really was, then there would be no reason why Brawl+ would be as popular as it is.

Sky-

Brawl+ why only came out cause people wanted their wavedash and unintentional glitches from Melee.

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Sky-

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#34 Sky-
Member since 2010 • 4682 Posts

Dude Now you're just sounding like a kid that got his butt handed in a game and now he hates the game purely because he lost.

Brawl CAN be competitive. You're just not playing it competitively.

LegatoSkyheart

It can be played competitively, but that competition is complete crap compared to other fighters because the outcome of the victory in Brawl depends heavily on what character you use and the stage you play on. A good competitive fighter will rely on the skill of the player more so than any other factor.

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yoshi_64

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#35 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts

1. I don't care what you and your friend do when playing Brawl. When I talk about competitive play, I'm talking about the tournament scene in which professional players compete based on skill.

2. Perhaps you should try reading entire original posts more often. Just reading the title and coming here to bash me doesn't quite cut it.

princeofshapeir

That doesn't matter to you, but to them, the competitive play is how they play. The tournament scene is just a scene for people fancying to play a certain way. People in the "professional" field prefer nothing but the same tedious rules that begin to wear the game down. Final destination, no items, and the same top tier characters that people exploit and spam. Skill will vary based on each individual, but if two people with the same skill collide and play their game at their best, it's STILL a competitive field, still a game of competition. If he and his friend get competitive in these games, you have no say in saying what's competitive or not. You are just saddened because you cannot enjoy the game to the level they do, because you lust for the same broken techniques and characters of Melee.

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randomwiiplayer

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#36 randomwiiplayer
Member since 2009 • 1804 Posts

[QUOTE="Ribnarak"]

whether or not you think the game "rewards" you if you have skill does not determine its genre.

IF me and my freind choose two characters, and are supposed to hit each other in anyway for the sole purpose of winning. It is a fighting game.

This Thread fails TC, sorry to break it to you and ure wall of text.

princeofshapeir

I didn't say it wasn't a fighting game. The key word here is "competitive". Perhaps if you read my entire post, you'd realize that I'm trying to say that Brawl is still a fighting game, but that it doesn't have the same level of competitive play that Smash 64 and Melee do.

Really? Lets read the first line of your post again.....

...I don't think Brawl can be ****fied as a fighting game.

princeofshapeir

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princeofshapeir

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#37 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]If that's really the case, Brawl should have a tournament scene that was just as big or bigger than Melee's, right? But it doesn't. Isai and numerous other Smashers don't play Brawl competitively, and while Ken sort of does, he prefers Melee much more when playing professionally. There are still Melee tournaments going on. If Brawl was truly as competitive as Melee, you would think that it would be featured far more often in tournaments.LegatoSkyheart

Dude Now you're just sounding like a kid that got his butt handed in a game and now he hates the game purely because he lost.

Brawl CAN be competitive. You're just not playing it competitively.

Look at matchups for bottom-tier characters in Brawl, and compare them to match-ups for top-tier characters. Then compare those to the matchups in Melee. General imbalance hampers competitive play in Brawl. Sure, there is a competitive scene. But if Brawl was the first game in the Smash series, I highly doubt it would actually have a competitive scene worth mentioning.
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LegatoSkyheart

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#38 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

It can be played competitively, but that competition is complete crap compared to other fighters because the outcome of the victory in Brawl depends heavily on what character you use and the stage you play on. A good competitive fighter will rely on the skill of the player more so than any other factor.

Sky-

How can it be a crap competition?

A Competition is a Competition! The Goal is to WIN!

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VendettaRed07

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#39 VendettaRed07
Member since 2007 • 14012 Posts

[QUOTE="VendettaRed07"]

Like look how awesome this looks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-kPc0EL9sU&feature=related

If you really look at this closely there is a ton of strategy going on, and its being played at like 1000 mph.

Then there is this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YYyxnYVe_4&feature=related

This is slow, and its just a bunch of slamming back and forth.. Totally lame in comparison

yoshi_64

Meh both look lame in all honesty. I'm not one who gets excited watching others play. The thrill of fighting games for me is being in the moment, planning my attacks, watching my strategy unfold and hoping to best my opponent. When I watch other people play, it doesn't do anything for me, because it's the rush, the thrill of the moment, that gets me in fighting games, and to get that, I have to be in it.

Well The first vid is what me and my friends looked like while playing. I was just saying It was insane, it was fast furious, and it demanded you to have strategy while playing. In brawl I could just be diddy kong and spam bananas and everyone would be destroyed.

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Ribnarak

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#40 Ribnarak
Member since 2008 • 2299 Posts

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

Dude Now you're just sounding like a kid that got his butt handed in a game and now he hates the game purely because he lost.

Brawl CAN be competitive. You're just not playing it competitively.

Sky-

It can be played competitively, but that competition is complete crap compared to other fighters because the outcome of the victory in Brawl depends heavily on what character you use and the stage you play on. A good competitive fighter will rely on the skill of the player more so than any other factor.

and this is the thing the TC doesnt quite understand.

I PLAY competitively with my friend.
HOwever i agree that it isnt as competitive as other smash bros.

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Sky-

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#41 Sky-
Member since 2010 • 4682 Posts

How can it be a crap competition?

A Competition is a Competition! The Goal is to WIN!

LegatoSkyheart

Winning in Brawl leans heavily on what stage you use and what characters you use...the player's skill level isn't anywhere near as big of a factor in Brawl as it is in other fighters.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#42 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

Look at matchups for bottom-tier characters in Brawl, and compare them to match-ups for top-tier characters. Then compare those to the matchups in Melee. General imbalance hampers competitive play in Brawl. Sure, there is a competitive scene.But if Brawl was the first game in the Smash series, I highly doubt it would actually have a competitive scene worth mentioning.princeofshapeir

lol Tiers.

and in the bold, underlined and in red you admited DEFEAT!

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yoshi_64

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#43 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

Dude Now you're just sounding like a kid that got his butt handed in a game and now he hates the game purely because he lost.

Brawl CAN be competitive. You're just not playing it competitively.

Sky-

It can be played competitively, but that competition is complete crap compared to other fighters because the outcome of the victory in Brawl depends heavily on what character you use and the stage you play on. A good competitive fighter will rely on the skill of the player more so than any other factor.

Most people who play fighting games online, tend to use an exploitable character. It happens, play more fighting games than Brawl, and you'll see. I'll play BlazBlue online, and someone who prefers Nu (one of the most broken characters I know in the game) and it becomes the same thing (spam those swords). Play any SF IV match, people play as Ken quite a lot. Play just about any game online, regardless if it's a fighter or not and people like to try and break the rules, break the game, and play the most "cheapest" way possible. Now, you can complain about how characters in brawl are cheap, or you can actually improve your skills and work at it. There is no "cheap player" excuse, just the excuse of players not willing to adapt and change their strategy. I know the tiers, but I still play as my favorites, and I still win lots of my matches. Whether it's a competitive play at school, home, or a local tourny by me and some friends. You don't play fighters right if you just expect to win through sheer numbers and luck.
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princeofshapeir

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#44 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"] That doesn't matter to you, but to them, the competitive play is how they play. The tournament scene is just a scene for people fancying to play a certain way. People in the "professional" field prefer nothing but the same tedious rules that begin to wear the game down. Final destination, no items, and the same top tier characters that people exploit and spam. Skill will vary based on each individual, but if two people with the same skill collide and play their game at their best, it's STILL a competitive field, still a game of competition. If he and his friend get competitive in these games, you have no say in saying what's competitive or not. You are just saddened because you cannot enjoy the game to the level they do, because you lust for the same broken techniques and characters of Melee.

yoshi_64

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]

1. I don't care what you and your friend do when playing Brawl. When I talk about competitive play, I'm talking about the tournament scene in which professional players compete based on skill.

2. Perhaps you should try reading entire original posts more often. Just reading the title and coming here to bash me doesn't quite cut it.

yoshi_64

That doesn't matter to you, but to them, the competitive play is how they play. The tournament scene is just a scene for people fancying to play a certain way. People in the "professional" field prefer nothing but the same tedious rules that begin to wear the game down. Final destination, no items, and the same top tier characters that people exploit and spam. Skill will vary based on each individual, but if two people with the same skill collide and play their game at their best, it's STILL a competitive field, still a game of competition. If he and his friend get competitive in these games, you have no say in saying what's competitive or not. You are just saddened because you cannot enjoy the game to the level they do, because you lust for the same broken techniques and characters of Melee.

It's laughable to consider Marth and wavedashing/moonwalking broken, when compared to Meta Knight and Infinity Dimensional Cape. Again, I actually have played Brawl for a long time. I still consider it fun. Competitive meant for tournament play? No. It's clear that Sakurai intended for Brawl to be a different kind of game. Most of the people giving Brawl a competitive tournament scene are just the stalwart fans unwilling to accept the fact that it's not a game meant for hardcore play. And from the way you describe professional play in Melee, you're beginning to sound like the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Sky-

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#45 Sky-
Member since 2010 • 4682 Posts

and this is the thing the TC doesnt quite understand.

I PLAY competitively with my friend.
HOwever i agree that it isnt as competitive as other smash bros.

Ribnarak

My main issue is with the people who play in Brawl tournaments...the game has ridiculous balance problems and you don't stand a chance if you use some of the low tier characters like Link or Captain Falcoln.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#46 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

How can it be a crap competition?

A Competition is a Competition! The Goal is to WIN!

Sky-

Winning in Brawl leans heavily on what stage you use and what characters you use...the player's skill level isn't anywhere near as big of a factor in Brawl as it is in other fighters.

Dude that adds to the CHALLENGE! Repeat CHALLENGE!

I'm sorry that you couldn't avoid the challenges but if you don't want to go for those, then there is always Final Destination and Battle Field.

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yoshi_64

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#47 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

How can it be a crap competition?

A Competition is a Competition! The Goal is to WIN!

Sky-

Winning in Brawl leans heavily on what stage you use and what characters you use...the player's skill level isn't anywhere near as big of a factor in Brawl as it is in other fighters.

Care to prove this? In Brawl, it relies more on the players familiarity with the levels, the willingness to conform themselves to these changes, and to be one step ahead of their opponent. Maybe you people are just unwilling to play though because all the "competitive players" love nothing but the simple linear stage of Final Destination. You can admit that one's skill in Brawl no longer resolves to just how they play with one character, but how well they adapt to the changing situations in the stages. I play the Pokemon Diamond/Pearl level, and I know many hate it, but I win most often and hear groans from players, because most do not like the change up int he level. Who's really wrong here? The game or the players for not willing to learn how to play it?
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princeofshapeir

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#48 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"] Look at matchups for bottom-tier characters in Brawl, and compare them to match-ups for top-tier characters. Then compare those to the matchups in Melee. General imbalance hampers competitive play in Brawl. Sure, there is a competitive scene.But if Brawl was the first game in the Smash series, I highly doubt it would actually have a competitive scene worth mentioning.LegatoSkyheart

lol Tiers.

and in the bold, underlined and in red you admited DEFEAT!

Tiers didn't influence character mains in Melee or Smash 64 as much as they do now in Brawl. There are more Meta Knights and Snakes than there are Marths and Foxes from Melee. The competitive scene in Brawl is negligible. The big name Smashers from previous games aren't making return appearances in Brawl, and even if they are they still prefer Melee.
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ActicEdge

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#49 ActicEdge
Member since 2008 • 24492 Posts

Deep discussion. My 2 cents is that if its not competitive, I'll play it for silly fun. I'm sure what you have said has undoubtibly offended people (all your threads do) but if you can't classify it as such a game, then obviously its not meant to be treated as such. No big deal if you were indeed correct.

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yoshi_64

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#50 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts

[QUOTE="Ribnarak"]

and this is the thing the TC doesnt quite understand.

I PLAY competitively with my friend.
HOwever i agree that it isnt as competitive as other smash bros.

Sky-

My main issue is with the people who play in Brawl tournaments...the game has ridiculous balance problems and you don't stand a chance if you use some of the low tier characters like Link or Captain Falcoln.

You sound like the guy who'd love something like Dissidia: Final Fantasy. That game has more broken characters and item sets than any other fighter. It probably doesn't have tournament plays, but someone like I who plays competitively with friends loves the game still despite it's obviously broken setup system. You speak with numbers on the brain, you don't speak with the heart in the game. You don't willingly adapt, you just play by these mathematical situations and numbers.