SW, do sales really matter?

God, the way you people talk it's like you're totally dead inside.

Vitro-Vivo

I am sorry you don't understand how capitalism works. I truly am.

Yes, developers make games because that's what they want to do. However, no developer can stay in business if their games fail to turn a profit.

It's like the Engineering Firm I currently work for. We're all Engineers because we like designing & installing systems for universities, condos, industrial complexes, public schools, etc., but if we don't turn a profit on our projects, then the firm will be shut down.

You need money to achieve anything in life. I don't see why you're so adamant about stating the obvious.

But see the difference is HOW you make your money. Do you think that a dev is a dev even though he doesn't want to be? Do you think becoming a dev is something that just falls onto your lap? You become a dev because you want to make games.
Vitro-Vivo

And I'd argue that you're doing nothing but stating the obvious too. :)

People like to bring up the multiplats that the Wii still isn't getting as proof that sales aren't important. The problem with that is that sales don't exist in a vacumn. Dead Rising 2 is being developed on the HD consoles. As sales have proven in the past, most games that are released on all 3 systems sell better on the PS3 and 360, particularly games of that type. However, wht is Dead Rising being released on the Wii? Could it be because the Wii has sold so much, they figure there might be a market for them to try. Afterall, it would be much easier to release a PS3 version, but maybe the userbase isn't there?

As the Wii has shown time and again this gen, you have to throw traditional thinking out the window. The difference in technology between it and the other systems makes it had to make coorelations between this gen and previous ones. Do you think the Wii would be getting nearly as many exclusives without the sales success it has had? Deadly Creatures, FFCC, NMH, Bikini Zombies, RE:UC, HotD, these are all games that the Wii is getting, in part due in part to sales.

[QUOTE="Vitro-Vivo"]

God, the way you people talk it's like you're totally dead inside.

LosDaddie

I am sorry you don't understand how capitalism works. I truly am.

Yes, developers make games because that's what they want to do. However, no developer can stay in business if their games fail to turn a profit.

It's like the Engineering Firm I currently work for. We're all Engineers because we like designing & installing systems for universities, condos, industrial complexes, public schools, etc., but if we don't turn a profit on our projects, then the firm will be shut down.

So then by your own sayings, your #1 priority is money. It's not actual, good, smart engineering. It's money.

[QUOTE="LosDaddie"][QUOTE="Vitro-Vivo"]

God, the way you people talk it's like you're totally dead inside.

Vitro-Vivo

I am sorry you don't understand how capitalism works. I truly am.

Yes, developers make games because that's what they want to do. However, no developer can stay in business if their games fail to turn a profit.

It's like the Engineering Firm I currently work for. We're all Engineers because we like designing & installing systems for universities, condos, industrial complexes, public schools, etc., but if we don't turn a profit on our projects, then the firm will be shut down.

So then by your own sayings, your #1 priority is money. It's not actual, good, smart engineering. It's money.

:lol: Both are intrinsically related to one another. Stop acting as if they are not.

I earn more money by performing great on the projects I help manage. If the project I'm on turns a profit, then I get a nice bonus check (based on the percentage of the profit) at the end of the project. If the project busts the budget, then no bonus check for me. This doesn't apply to our field workers though. They get paid an hourly rate and receieve the (small) standard Christmas bonus check that everyone gets at the end of the year.

To apply this to a game developer; The average programmer on the team might not be concerned about sales/profit, but rather making a great game. But I can assure you the management/owners of the developers are VERY concerned about sales/profit and it is their #1 priority. :)

That's just how The Business World functions.

Everyone who voted no misunderstood the question. The question is not "do you personally care about sales"; it's "do sales matter?"

Yes, they matter. A lot. Like, a FRIGGIN' lot. More than anything else in the industry.

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]How do gamers get games if those corporations and businesses can't make games if they go out of business? Gamers should care about games or else those corporations and businesses go bankrupt and there are no more games.foxhound_fox

And then you have those companies that are closing down studios and laying off people. How does that increase your enjoyment of games? It doesn't cause it means fewer and fewer games to play. So once again, how does a gamer benefit from fewer and fewer devs?

The economy is only a part of the problem. Another part of the problem is the costs associated with HD development. This means that they need to sell even more bucketloads of games on the HD platforms than what they have been selling and this has not been happening. Of course, this is another argument for another day.

Sales don't need to effect personal opinion, that much is true. However, saying they are completely useless, or only "fanboys" care about this subject is hilarious! Sales were the reason people thought of the N64 as the "downfall" of Nintendo, and also the reason why Wii is considered the "comback" of the same company as well. Moreover, Third party developers always look for the highest selling console to support. While this case may not be reflected in this generation, it's simply because of Wii's vibrant approach, or better yet, Wii's "new" generation" in comparison to the competition. Everything will come in place once "new" generation exhibits a wider audience than "next" generation. Fanboys can run on their dreams by neglecting the power of sales. But inevitably , They will realize it one day.nintendo-4life

And then you have those companies that are closing down studios and laying off people. How does that increase your enjoyment of games? It doesn't cause it means fewer and fewer games to play. So once again, how does a gamer benefit from fewer and fewer devs?

The economy is only a part of the problem. Another part of the problem is the costs associated with HD development. This means that they need to sell even more bucketloads of games on the HD platforms than what they have been selling and this has not been happening. Of course, this is another argument for another day.

Zhengi

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]To gamers who like to play good games? No.colecoavenger

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]And then you have those companies that are closing down studios and laying off people. How does that increase your enjoyment of games? It doesn't cause it means fewer and fewer games to play. So once again, how does a gamer benefit from fewer and fewer devs?

The economy is only a part of the problem. Another part of the problem is the costs associated with HD development. This means that they need to sell even more bucketloads of games on the HD platforms than what they have been selling and this has not been happening. Of course, this is another argument for another day.

foxhound_fox

Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. So devs like Free Radical Designs, Ensemble, and Silicon Knights (questionable) aren't good devs that make great games? In fact, devs will be doing the opposite of what you are talking about. They will start to make more low budget games because in this environment of tight credit, devs can't afford to finance big projects and hope to survive. As a matter of fact, what caused the problem that most of these companies are in is trying to develop all these high budget, high quality games you are talking about. So basically you're advocating companies to do the same exact thing that has been losing them money. Good thing companies like EA have already proven your argument flawed by putting more support on the Wii.

And of course, if you can't come up with a good argument for the HD consoles, people like you always fall back on the PC, when this platform has been immensely affected by the HD consoles by having companies concentrate less games on it or having games dumbed down for consoles.

[QUOTE="colecoavenger"][QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]To gamers who like to play good games? No.kage_53

SW is a war against which is the best console. If this was based off sales then the Nintendo DS is #1. Now I'm not saying they aren't important. If Halo suddenly becomes the most profitable game ever then it a neat thing to see but they don't decide a winner.gamefan274

[QUOTE="LosDaddie"][QUOTE="Vitro-Vivo"]

God, the way you people talk it's like you're totally dead inside.

Vitro-Vivo

I am sorry you don't understand how capitalism works. I truly am.

Yes, developers make games because that's what they want to do. However, no developer can stay in business if their games fail to turn a profit.

It's like the Engineering Firm I currently work for. We're all Engineers because we like designing & installing systems for universities, condos, industrial complexes, public schools, etc., but if we don't turn a profit on our projects, then the firm will be shut down.

So then by your own sayings, your #1 priority is money. It's not actual, good, smart engineering. It's money.

I think your reading comprehension needs a healthy dose of aim-assist.

[QUOTE="Vitro-Vivo"][QUOTE="LosDaddie"]

I am sorry you don't understand how capitalism works. I truly am.

Yes, developers make games because that's what they want to do. However, no developer can stay in business if their games fail to turn a profit.

It's like the Engineering Firm I currently work for. We're all Engineers because we like designing & installing systems for universities, condos, industrial complexes, public schools, etc., but if we don't turn a profit on our projects, then the firm will be shut down.

Dingerious

So then by your own sayings, your #1 priority is money. It's not actual, good, smart engineering. It's money.

I think your reading comprehension needs a healthy dose of aim-assist.

Ah the reading comprehension bit.

I actually had typed something but you know what, nevermind. You're not even worth the discussion.

[QUOTE="Dingerious"][QUOTE="Vitro-Vivo"]

So then by your own sayings, your #1 priority is money. It's not actual, good, smart engineering. It's money.

Vitro-Vivo

I think your reading comprehension needs a healthy dose of aim-assist.

Ah the reading comprehension bit.

I actually had typed something but you know what, nevermind. You're not even worth the discussion.

You're right, I'm probably worth more than your one and only discussion point: "I lol'd".

Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. So devs like Free Radical Designs, Ensemble, and Silicon Knights (questionable) aren't good devs that make great games? In fact, devs will be doing the opposite of what you are talking about. They will start to make more low budget games because in this environment of tight credit, devs can't afford to finance big projects and hope to survive. As a matter of fact, what caused the problem that most of these companies are in is trying to develop all these high budget, high quality games you are talking about. So basically you're advocating companies to do the same exact thing that has been losing them money. Good thing companies like EA have already proven your argument flawed by putting more support on the Wii.

And of course, if you can't come up with a good argument for the HD consoles, people like you always fall back on the PC, when this platform has been immensely affected by the HD consoles by having companies concentrate less games on it or having games dumbed down for consoles.

Zhengi

Sales matter. It's one way for developers and game companies to have an indication if there's a fanbase and if it's worth it to continue to support the product. Why would these game companies support a product if gamers aren't supporting their product by not buying it.

Sales matter to gamers because you go to the store and buy games. If sales didn't matter then you would get these games for free. But that's not the case, you support the game and gaming products by buying it, you can't support it just by playing it.

One more thing, if sales didn't matter, then the PS2 being the best selling console doesn't mean anything then.

obviously not. look at Wiis libraryHeydanbud92

Or you could look at the libraries of the NES, SNES, PS1 and PS2. ;)

They do if:

You want a sequel to a game
You want more exclusives on your console.

Shy_Guy_Red

has gamers we dont care about sales we care about games

Who ever has the most AAA exclusives at the end WInz IMO

and i think 360 has the lead so far but PS3 is putiing up a fight and wii is in 3rd i think

All I have to do is state two words in this thread to automatically win.

Okami

Dreamcast

And that is why sales matter.Hexagon_777

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]All I have to do is state two words in this thread to automatically win.

Okami

Dreamcast

And that is why sales matter.foxhound_fox

not sure how you missed his point but:

there wont be an okami sequel because Capcom closed the dev studio cause of much lower than expected sales

Dreamcast didnt even last a whole generation and sega went out of the hardware business because.... wait for it..... low sales

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]All I have to do is state two words in this thread to automatically win.

Okami

Dreamcast

And that is why sales matter.ogvampire

not sure how you missed his point but:

there wont be an okami sequel because Capcom closed the dev studio cause of much lower than expected sales

Dreamcast didnt even last a whole generation and sega went out of the hardware business because.... wait for it..... low sales

You would hope that would've been obvious

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]All I have to do is state two words in this thread to automatically win.

Okami

Dreamcast

And that is why sales matter.foxhound_fox

I understand your posotion

What's fun to me is knowing that the things I like keep being made

If there's a great game but no one buys it I don't like it as much as I want to because I know it's dead in the water

If there's a game I like AND it's selling well I feel even better playing it because I know more is coming after this.

Jaysonguy

...That makes absolutely no sense.:| Your enjoyment on a game is partially dependent on the possibility of its sequel?I can understand one being happy that a certain game one likes is selling more,so that more people can experience it,but this is not the same situation.

Killer7.Did it sell well?No.Is there a chance of a sequel coming out?No,or at least a very slim chance.Did that prevent it from becoming one of my favorite games ever?No.

not sure how you missed his point but:

there wont be an okami sequel because Capcom closed the dev studio cause of much lower than expected sales

Dreamcast didnt even last a whole generation and sega went out of the hardware business because.... wait for it..... low sales

ogvampire

Okami sold terrible and Clover shut down. Dreamcast yeah it was a bad example because Sales didn't kill the Dreamcast the Saturn being a failure on the market and not making money was what killed the Dreamcast because when SEGA Discontinued the Dreamcast it was at 10 Million sold that is pretty good for two years.Nintendo_Ownes7

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]All I have to do is state two words in this thread to automatically win.

Okami

Dreamcast

And that is why sales matter.ogvampire

not sure how you missed his point but:

there wont be an okami sequel because Capcom closed the dev studio cause of much lower than expected sales

Dreamcast didnt even last a whole generation and sega went out of the hardware business because.... wait for it..... low sales

Oggy, you came to my rescue! :cry:

[QUOTE="ogvampire"]not sure how you missed his point but:

there wont be an okami sequel because Capcom closed the dev studio cause of much lower than expected sales

Dreamcast didnt even last a whole generation and sega went out of the hardware business because.... wait for it..... low sales

foxhound_fox

Why do I need an Okami sequel? I don't remember there being any setup at the end of the game for more. I enjoyed the first very much... how does it not getting a sequel make me enjoy it any less or make it any less of a quality game?

lol. you are just thinking about yourself, meanwhile in the real world im sure there are alot of people out there that would love a sequel.... good sales would have guaranteed that.

I'm surprised the poll is even. :shock:

Usually there's much more whiny cows and lemmings in these threads. ;) Perhaps some people are coming to their senses? :o

Sales: The real System Wars.

[QUOTE="ogvampire"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
Okami was a fantastic game and the Dreamcast got an amazing selection of fantastic games over its couple years on the market. Way more than most consoles do in 5-6 year life-times. I don't see how those things make sales matter.Hexagon_777

not sure how you missed his point but:

there wont be an okami sequel because Capcom closed the dev studio cause of much lower than expected sales

Dreamcast didnt even last a whole generation and sega went out of the hardware business because.... wait for it..... low sales

Oggy, you came to my rescue! :cry:

lol! no problem

we seem to agree on quite a few issues

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]All I have to do is state two words in this thread to automatically win.

Okami

Dreamcast

And that is why sales matter.Nintendo_Ownes7

So it was the Saturn that failed due to sales?

lol. you are just thinking about yourself, meanwhile in the real world im sure there are alot of people out there that would love a sequel.... good sales would have guaranteed that. ogvampire

we are NOT saying that it was a bad console because it sold poorly. we are just basically saying that if it sold better it would have had a longer life, which in turn would have had even more games in its library, and maybe a Dreamcast 2. its simple logic...ogvampire

sorry, i cant help you with that... ogvampire

[QUOTE="ogvampire"]lol. you are just thinking about yourself, meanwhile in the real world im sure there are alot of people out there that would love a sequel.... good sales would have guaranteed that. foxhound_fox

we are NOT saying that it was a bad console because it sold poorly. we are just basically saying that if it sold better it would have had a longer life, which in turn would have had even more games in its library, and maybe a Dreamcast 2. its simple logic...ogvampire

sorry, i cant help you with that... ogvampire

i cant be any clearer. its a simple point and i have no idea how you are missing it

anyway. sorry man, i cant help you figure things out...

i cant be any clearer. its a simple point and i have no idea how you are missing it

anyway. sorry man, i cant help you figure things out...

ogvampire

[QUOTE="ogvampire"]i cant be any clearer. its a simple point and i have no idea how you are missing it

anyway. sorry man, i cant help you figure things out...

foxhound_fox

His point was clear to me. :)

As with every market, if you follow the money, you will always end up with the market leader. Sales matter people, it shows where future resources will go.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="ogvampire"]i cant be any clearer. its a simple point and i have no idea how you are missing it

anyway. sorry man, i cant help you figure things out...

LosDaddie

His point was clear to me. :)

As well as to me. I have a slight feeling that foxhound_fox is being pretentious i.e. feigning that he's missing it. It would be foolish from a micro-economic perspective to deny that sales lead to sequels and what not yet he's trying to argue against that by directing attention towards a search for effects on games that are apparently inherent.

Perhaps it is he who should make his point clearer.

[QUOTE="ogvampire"]i cant be any clearer. its a simple point and i have no idea how you are missing it

anyway. sorry man, i cant help you figure things out...

foxhound_fox

lol! now you are just making things up... your statement doesnt make any sense

its not that im not clear enough, its that you are just NOT getting it... :roll:

look to yourself for the problem, not me

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. So devs like Free Radical Designs, Ensemble, and Silicon Knights (questionable) aren't good devs that make great games? In fact, devs will be doing the opposite of what you are talking about. They will start to make more low budget games because in this environment of tight credit, devs can't afford to finance big projects and hope to survive. As a matter of fact, what caused the problem that most of these companies are in is trying to develop all these high budget, high quality games you are talking about. So basically you're advocating companies to do the same exact thing that has been losing them money. Good thing companies like EA have already proven your argument flawed by putting more support on the Wii.

And of course, if you can't come up with a good argument for the HD consoles, people like you always fall back on the PC, when this platform has been immensely affected by the HD consoles by having companies concentrate less games on it or having games dumbed down for consoles.

foxhound_fox

hat about Dead Space? What about Mirror's Edge? What about the new Prince of Persia? These are great games that didn't sell that lost their publisher great amounts of money. Do you really think EA would be that excited to go back to developing more of these games since they lost so much money? Did you expect these to do poorly? All these games did everything you're asking them to do and yet they didn't sell well.

GTAIV did not sell as much as GTAIII, Vice City, and San Andreas. And just reaching the same numbers is not good considering it cost more to make GTAIV than the other previous versions. Also, this just continues to prove how much you don't know about companies and their sales. If you knew anything, you would know that Take Two reported losses in their next fiscal quarter after GTAIV released. This is a company that is literally bleeding money. If they go out of business, good bye to the GTA series. So are you still thinking that sales aren't important?

And yes, EA shifting to Wii is a good thing. Your argument is that the Wii sells so much and there is no support. This is proof that since the Wii is selling so much, it is in fact getting more support. Just because it breaks your argument into pieces does not make it an irrelevant fact. Just admit your ownage and stop pretending like it's not a big deal.

And millions of people own more Wiis than the 360 and they put in more play time on their Wiis than any other console. I don't understand what your circumstantial argument is trying to prove. I have a Wii, a 360, a PS3, and a gaming PC. I play my Wii more than the other systems because the games on the other systems don't appeal to me as much as those on the Wii. What are you trying to prove with your circumstantial evidence?