The Best Selling Fighting Game of all Time

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="seannn199"] um no? smash dosent have that many moves in it and it just ends up like a fun button masher when friends are overseannn199

smash is not a button masher

you can button mash with ANY fighting game and do OK, but the good players will always win. same case with Smash

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]Like i said, if your so hellbent on disproving that combos exist in brawl as to claim that chaingrabs are comboes, then go ahead, i really dont care either way. Tsug_Ze_Wind

You're acting like it's a stretch or something. It's a series ofmoves where your opponent can't respond in between. How is that not a combo?

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="seannn199"] um no? smash dosent have that many moves in it and it just ends up like a fun button masher when friends are overseannn199

chaingrabs have historically been seen as different from combos in the fighting genre and in professional fighting game communities. but lol, you seem to think i care whether you've "disproved" me or not based on this assertion. Again, if you want to label chaingrabs as combos just so that I can appear to be "wrong" about my original assertion then i dont care lol JPOBS

I'm just wondering why, 'cause that doesn't make any sense. Then again, the pro community usually has no clue what they're talking about.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]chaingrabs have historically been seen as different from combos in the fighting genre and in professional fighting game communities. but lol, you seem to think i care whether you've "disproved" me or not based on this assertion. Again, if you want to label chaingrabs as combos just so that I can appear to be "wrong" about my original assertion then i dont care lol Tsug_Ze_Wind

I'm just wondering why, 'cause that doesn't make any sense. Then again, the pro community usually has no clue what they're talking about.

as for the second statement,...:|

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]chaingrabs have historically been seen as different from combos in the fighting genre and in professional fighting game communities. but lol, you seem to think i care whether you've "disproved" me or not based on this assertion. Again, if you want to label chaingrabs as combos just so that I can appear to be "wrong" about my original assertion then i dont care lol JPOBS

I'm just wondering why, 'cause that doesn't make any sense. Then again, the pro community usually has no clue what they're talking about.

That actually wasn't really a satisfactory answer.

I still bet SF2 is far more played, and deservingly so. No hardcore fighting game fan could "just" play Smash Bros. 110million

That actually wasn't really a satisfactory answer.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

For the first thing, a combo doesnt have anything to do with whether its escapable or not, atleast not in smash since the combos are made up on the fly and are a predetermined sequence of events like in street fighter.

as for the second statement,...:|

JPOBS

If that's true, then what's the complaint with Brawl again? There's plenty of moves that lead into other moves. :?

I should say, the "competitive community." For the most part, they're really whiny and obnoxious. I don't trust much that they say.

can you guess? Super Smash bros. Brawl with 8.5 million sales worldwide. Im glad because it's such a fantastic, balanced, high-action fighter and anyone who says its just a shallow button masher is just sorely mistaken, Its one of the best multiplayer games ever made and you simply haven't played it if you think its anything less

Too bad i haven't played it in ages but mark my words, no one can take me as shiek lol

LastLaugh90

Yeah I love Brawl, but I gotta admit Melee was better. And no, it isn't balanced. I've played SSB since the first one (and gotten pretty amazing at it :P) but SSBB isn't the best fighter of all time to be a complete worthy winner of the 'top selling game' (think more street fighter), still a great agme though.

Yeah I love Brawl, but I gotta admit Melee was better. And no, it isn't balanced. I've played SSB since the first one (and gotten pretty amazing at it :P) but SSBB isn't the best fighter of all time to be a complete worthy winner of the 'top selling game' (think more street fighter), still a great agme though.

alia999

Considering it's a 40-character roster, it's pretty well balanced. There's some exceptions (Like some of Snake's moves, Samus' complete inability to kill, and Toon Link in general), but overall they did a good job. Far more balanced than Melee.

Here comes the generic Melee fanboys to downplay Brawl again. Oh boy, does this gets old fast. Anyway, let me just say that Brawl is not the deepest game you will ever play but it's definitely a better quality game compare to Melee. Brawl is a much more balanced game and has more diverse characters than Melee. A huge amount of contents, amazing soundtracks, etc. Though, I don't really care since I absolutely love playing the three Smash Bros games as a whole and not stick to one, unlike most gamers nowadays.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

For the first thing, a combo doesnt have anything to do with whether its escapable or not, atleast not in smash since the combos are made up on the fly and are a predetermined sequence of events like in street fighter.

as for the second statement,...:|

Tsug_Ze_Wind

If that's true, then what's the complaint with Brawl again? There's plenty of moves that lead into other moves. :?

I should say, the "competitive community." For the most part, they're really whiny and obnoxious. I don't trust much that they say.

But the thing about brawl is that, when combos are "escapable" they flat out cant be continued after the second or so hit. the hit stun is so negligible that your opponent can either airdodge, jump, or attack you almost 100% of the time. there are "plenty' of moves that lead into other moves, but those are 1-3 hitters at best, for example diddy's banana toss, to dash attack, to up smash. Pretty much unbreakable and technically a "combo" but thats about as good as it gets. If you define a combo as just one move leading to another then sure brawl has lots, im wrong, and "kumboz du exits". but typically when people say they dont, they mean they are extremely toned down and not extendable.

and i disagree about what you say about the competitive community, they are the best place to go to find out about how to play better.

It's pretty obvious that combos exist in the game when two characters are completely 100% reliant on them (DDD and Ice Climbers). :lol:

Tsug_Ze_Wind

Lets not forget Pika, Falco, and maybe Lucario and Yoshi can also do grab combos. Oh, and DDD can do an infinite. ; )

[QUOTE="110million"]I still bet SF2 is far more played, and deservingly so. No hardcore fighting game fan could "just" play Smash Bros. JPOBS

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

[QUOTE="110million"]I still bet SF2 is far more played, and deservingly so. No hardcore fighting game fan could "just" play Smash Bros. 110million

I still bet SF2 is far more played, and deservingly so. No hardcore fighting game fan could "just" play Smash Bros. 110million

Brawl is a much more balanced game and has more diverse characters than Melee.Kev_Unreal

[QUOTE="110million"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]then why was smash bros melee a part of both Evolution fighting championship (just like SF) series and MLG circuit (not SF)? boy i guess you look pretty dumb now huh?

JPOBS

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="110million"] Uh, trying to insult me when you misunderstood me is what looks dumb. I never said Smash Bros wasn't hardcore, I said no one who plays fighting games would play just smash bros, when you consider how old SF2 is, and how much people spent in arcades, it was definatly played a lot more, so no, I don't think I look dumb. :|110million

What i mean by that is that in melee, there are lots of combos that technically are escapable based on teching but if your opponent reads you right, they still end up in combo vids. thsoe kinds of combos arent 100% garunteed but they are combos none the less. And then of course there are the unbreakable 0-60, 0-death etc combos that also exist. But being unbrekable isnt the sole determining factor of what is and isnt a combo in smash.

But the thing about brawl is that, when combos are "escapable" they flat out cant be continued after the second or so hit. the hit stun is so negligible that your opponent can either airdodge, jump, or attack you almost 100% of the time. there are "plenty' of moves that lead into other moves, but those are 1-3 hitters at best, for example diddy's banana toss, to dash attack, to up smash. Pretty much unbreakable and technically a "combo" but thats about as good as it gets. If you define a combo as just one move leading to another then sure brawl has lots, im wrong, and "kumboz du exits". but typically when people say they dont, they mean they are extremely toned down and not extendable.

and i disagree about what you say about the competitive community, they are the best place to go to find out about how to play better.

JPOBS

The competitive community can certainly be helpful when you're trying to improve, but when you try to debate with them, they tend to be drones that believe what the actual pros tell them to believe without really knowing why. This is true with the competitive community in pretty much anything, though. A few people that know the game and tons of others that pretend they do. The Smash community is just louder, it seems. There are some cool players, though.

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

It's pretty obvious that combos exist in the game when two characters are completely 100% reliant on them (DDD and Ice Climbers). :lol:

Kev_Unreal

Lets not forget Pika, Falco, and maybe Lucario and Yoshi can also do grab combos. Oh, and DDD can do an infinite. ; )

can you guess? Super Smash bros. Brawl with 8.5 million sales worldwide. Im glad because it's such a fantastic, balanced, high-action fighter and anyone who says its just a shallow button masher is just sorely mistaken, Its one of the best multiplayer games ever made and you simply haven't played it if you think its anything less

Too bad i haven't played it in ages but mark my words, no one can take me as shiek lol

LastLaugh90

Balanced? If you take out the smash-ball, sure..

Melee>Brawl. And yes you can button mash like crazy. SAGE_OF_FIRE

Who are you playing? Your grandmother? :lol:

Melee was betterDr_Snood

can you guess? Super Smash bros. Brawl with 8.5 million sales worldwide. Im glad because it's such a fantastic, balanced, high-action fighter and anyone who says its just a shallow button masher is just sorely mistaken, Its one of the best multiplayer games ever made and you simply haven't played it if you think its anything less

Too bad i haven't played it in ages but mark my words, no one can take me as shiek lol

LastLaugh90

[QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"] Melee>Brawl. And yes you can button mash like crazy. Tsug_Ze_Wind

Who are you playing? Your grandmother? :lol:

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

[QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"] Melee>Brawl. And yes you can button mash like crazy. SAGE_OF_FIRE

Who are you playing? Your grandmother? :lol:

False. Button mashing will just leave you flailing around while your opponent's hitting you with projectiles, or shield-grabbing you. The fact that Smash has almost-universal answers to this blind attacking makes it different from games where you have to high-block or low-block, where button-mashing makes you unpredictable and therefore difficult for the average player to beat you.

[QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

Who are you playing? Your grandmother? :lol:

Tsug_Ze_Wind

False. Button mashing will just leave you flailing around while your opponent's hitting you with projectiles, or shield-grabbing you. The fact that Smash has almost-universal answers to this blind attacking makes it different from games where you have to high-block or low-block, where button-mashing makes you unpredictable and therefore difficult for the average player to beat you.

Very true....

Smash is a game of shielding, rolling, and attacking. You cant just buttonmash your way through a match, atleast not with my friends. You have predict attacks and movements and play accordingly. It has such a crazy simple but deep combat system

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]What i mean by that is that in melee, there are lots of combos that technically are escapable based on teching but if your opponent reads you right, they still end up in combo vids. thsoe kinds of combos arent 100% garunteed but they are combos none the less. And then of course there are the unbreakable 0-60, 0-death etc combos that also exist. But being unbrekable isnt the sole determining factor of what is and isnt a combo in smash.

But the thing about brawl is that, when combos are "escapable" they flat out cant be continued after the second or so hit. the hit stun is so negligible that your opponent can either airdodge, jump, or attack you almost 100% of the time. there are "plenty' of moves that lead into other moves, but those are 1-3 hitters at best, for example diddy's banana toss, to dash attack, to up smash. Pretty much unbreakable and technically a "combo" but thats about as good as it gets. If you define a combo as just one move leading to another then sure brawl has lots, im wrong, and "kumboz du exits". but typically when people say they dont, they mean they are extremely toned down and not extendable.

and i disagree about what you say about the competitive community, they are the best place to go to find out about how to play better.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

The competitive community can certainly be helpful when you're trying to improve, but when you try to debate with them, they tend to be drones that believe what the actual pros tell them to believe without really knowing why. This is true with the competitive community in pretty much anything, though. A few people that know the game and tons of others that pretend they do. The Smash community is just louder, it seems. There are some cool players, though.

I dont understand what you mean by they remove interaction by design?

JPOBS

Simply, they give your opponent less or no options, so having too many of them that are too powerful degenerates a game.

Brawl is a great game. Melee was more fast paced and had a harder learning curve. i don't know i just like brawl more.

Smash Bros. Brawl fantastic fun for local multiplayer (and the online mode isn't that bad either). But you have to be kidding me if you think the game is deep or balanced.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]I dont understand what you mean by they remove interaction by design?

Tsug_Ze_Wind

Simply, they give your opponent less or no options, so having too many of them that are too powerful degenerates a game.

can you guess? Super Smash bros. Brawl with 8.5 million sales worldwide. Im glad because it's such a fantastic, balanced, high-action fighter and anyone who says its just a shallow button masher is just sorely mistaken, Its one of the best multiplayer games ever made and you simply haven't played it if you think its anything less

Too bad i haven't played it in ages but mark my words, no one can take me as shiek lol

LastLaugh90

2. It is one of the most imbalanced Fighting Games of All Time. Metaknight anyone? Snake? Compared to Ganondorf or other Bottom Tiers lol.. Imagine.. there exists a Bottom-Tier in Brawl.. that sais a lot about your so-called "balance" in Brawl

3. Action?? Ok.. if we put Items on (Smashballz).. but Items On = No Competitive Gameplay = Fail

4. yes.. your right about the "Good Multiplayer" thing

5. WiFi Sucks

6. It's the worst of the Smash Series

7. No True Combos... can we still call it a Fighting Game? lolol Don't call Chaingrabs Combos..

8. Brawl may not be a Button Masher.. but it's much much easier to learn than other Traditional Fighters like SF4, Tekken6 or KOFXII

9. It depends heavily on Matchups.. which is very boring..

10. Did I mention Edgehogging already? Or that there is no Execution-Difficulty?

Brawl is a funny Party-Game and is definately one of the best Multiplayer-Games.. but as a Fighting Game.. it sucks.

If people call that "deep"... than I wonder how they would define real fighters like KOF or Tekken x__X"

I mean all those Advanced Techs are learned in no time.. they are easy and require nearly no Execution Skills.

can you guess? Super Smash bros. Brawl with 8.5 million sales worldwide. Im glad because it's such a fantastic, balanced, high-action fighter and anyone who says its just a shallow button masher is just sorely mistaken, Its one of the best multiplayer games ever made and you simply haven't played it if you think its anything less

Too bad i haven't played it in ages but mark my words, no one can take me as shiek lol

LastLaugh90

Kind of disappointing. With the likes of Street Fighter and Tekkenavailable, I would have hope that something else would have won.

conversely, having little of them or so few effective ones gives your opponent so many options to the point where the game is hardly competitive anymore. the thing about it is though that while melee has combos that may be seemingly unfair to the untrained eye, when you know the game inside and out theres actually alot more to the combo than the combo itself. approaching safely is probably one of the most difficult things to do in the game. Once you get in on an opponent sure you can do nasty things given you know what your doing, but given your opponent is good, thats no easy task, if you watch professional matches, much of the game revolves around spacing, and dash dancing, and wavedashing around trying to create and opening to exploit because a bad decision can easily be reversed against you. JPOBS

Smash Bro. is a lie...

Alright, time to break it down. *music*

1. It's not your normal "Fighting Game"... more like.. Multiplayer Jump'n Run with Playerkill enabled

There's no need for genre snobbery. It's a fighting game.

2. It is one of the most imbalanced Fighting Games of All Time. Metaknight anyone? Snake? Compared to Ganondorf or other Bottom Tiers lol.. Imagine.. there exists a Bottom-Tier in Brawl.. that sais a lot about your so-called "balance" in Brawl

Ganondorf actually goes up pretty well against Snake. He's got an easy gimp and a better air game. How can you say that it's the most imbalanced when no characters have been banned and every character has seen at least a bit of tournament play?

3. Action?? Ok.. if we put Items on (Smashballz).. but Items On = No Competitive Gameplay = Fail

Why would you want items on if you plan to play competitively?

4. yes.. your right about the "Good Multiplayer" thing

5. WiFi Sucks

This we can all agree on.

6. It's the worst of the Smash Series

7. No True Combos... can we still call it a Fighting Game? lolol Don't call Chaingrabs Combos.

Reasons plz

8. Brawl may not be a Button Masher.. but it's much much easier to learn than other Traditional Fighters like SF4, Tekken6 or KOFXII

This is bad why? Apparently you don't want a thriving community. :?

9. It depends heavily on Matchups.. which is very boring..

It's also kind of inevitable.

10. Did I mention Edgehogging already? Or that there is no Execution-Difficulty?

What, exactly, is wrong with edge-guarding? Sounds awfully "scrubby" to me, and I hate that word.

Brawl is a funny Party-Game and is definately one of the best Multiplayer-Games.. but as a Fighting Game.. it sucks.

If people call that "deep"... than I wonder how they would define real fighters like KOF or Tekken x__X"

As fun but inferior.

I mean all those Advanced Techs are learned in no time.. they are easy and require nearly no Execution Skills.

No, see, we actually fight opponents and not our own controller. ;)

Shoooryuken

*/music*

1. It's not your normal "Fighting Game"... more like.. Multiplayer Jump'n Run with Playerkill enabled

There's no need for genre snobbery. It's a fighting game.

Just by comparing Smash to all other Fighters should give you a clear opinion on that one.

Smash is w/o a doubt something different.

2. It is one of the most imbalanced Fighting Games of All Time. Metaknight anyone? Snake? Compared to Ganondorf or other Bottom Tiers lol.. Imagine.. there exists a Bottom-Tier in Brawl.. that sais a lot about your so-called "balance" in Brawl

Ganondorf actually goes up pretty well against Snake. He's got an easy gimp and a better air game. How can you say that it's the most imbalanced when no characters have been banned and every character has seen at least a bit of tournament play?

Under no circumstances should a Character be banned lol.. a game can be called Imabalanced if certain Characters clearly dominate the Scene.

I dunno if it the most imbalanced.. but it definately is one of them. Tierlist and Tournament Results proof it.

(btw... there were(maybe still are) heavy discussions on whether MK should be banned or not..)

3. Action?? Ok.. if we put Items on (Smashballz).. but Items On = No Competitive Gameplay = Fail

Why would you want items on if you plan to play competitively?

Because ThreadOpener talked about Action kk

4. yes.. your right about the "Good Multiplayer" thing

5. WiFi Sucks

This we can all agree on.

6. It's the worst of the Smash Series

7. No True Combos... can we still call it a Fighting Game? lolol Don't call Chaingrabs Combos.

Reasons plz

A Combo is a row of attacks - If the first Attack hits, the following one hit 100%. And a Combo works all the time (If the 1st Hit hits)

Besides some "Jab-Combos" (Which is spamming A) there are no real Combos in Brawl. The tiny Hitstun allows Players to Airdodge/Shield/Dodge all the time.

Chaingrab? Well.. those only work under specific conditions: In Smash it'd be the %%% // or if there is a Wall...

8. Brawl may not be a Button Masher.. but it's much much easier to learn than other Traditional Fighters like SF4, Tekken6 or KOFXII

This is bad why? Apparently you don't want a thriving community.

Apparently you don't know that the SF-Community alone is much bigger than Smash?

9. It depends heavily on Matchups.. which is very boring..

It's also kind of inevitable.

Your wrong. It can be avoided. And good Developers will strive for Balance.

10. Did I mention Edgehogging already? Or that there is no Execution-Difficulty?

What, exactly, is wrong with edge-guarding? Sounds awfully "scrubby" to me, and I hate that word.

It's a simple way to kill others. Even more so for chars like Olimar. Which adds to Imbalance and Unfairness towards certain Characters.

Brawl is a funny Party-Game and is definately one of the best Multiplayer-Games.. but as a Fighting Game.. it sucks.

If people call that "deep"... than I wonder how they would define real fighters like KOF or Tekken x__X"

As fun but inferior.

It is incredible how KOF or Tekken are considered inferior to Smash... they are bouth a ton deeper than Brawl and millions will agree to this statement.

I mean all those Advanced Techs are learned in no time.. they are easy and require nearly no Execution Skills.

No, see, we actually fight opponents and not our own controller.

We actually want to compete with our Skills. And this can't be done if a game doesn't depend much on Skill.

I'm not saying that Brawl doesn't depend on Skill... but others just focus much more on Skill...

The Fact that Brawl was designed to be a Party Game and games like SF, KOF or Tekken are pure Fighting Games should be indiputeable.

Developers on Brawl cared much more on Items or SmashBall Animations than on actual Balance or Deep Gameplay.

Brawl was designed to be a simple game where anyone can join. (Hence the Easy Executions like direction+b=specialmove)

People can refer to Brawl as competitive and deep if they want.. but they should think of brawl as a good Fighting Game.

Because it simply isn't.

10. Did I mention Edgehogging already? Shoooryuken

[QUOTE="Shoooryuken"]

10. Did I mention Edgehogging already? JPOBS

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

[QUOTE="Shoooryuken"]

10. Did I mention Edgehogging already? Shoooryuken

so your point is that some chars are better than others?....ok....but i dont really know why you would blame edgehogging for this or list it as a knock against the game because even if ledgehogging was banned, olimar or venasuar wouldnt suddenly become top tier, they owuld still be mid tier chars. dont get me wrong, i odnt even like brawl, im just saying edgehogging is not a reason to bash the game.

Just by comparing Smash to all other Fighters should give you a clear opinion on that one.

Smash is w/o a doubt something different.

There's no room for innovation in the genre? You have to push it out into its own genre? Either way, it's irrelevant.

Under no circumstances should a Character be banned lol.. a game can be called Imabalanced if certain Characters clearly dominate the Scene.

I dunno if it the most imbalanced.. but it definately is one of them. Tierlist and Tournament Results proof it.

(btw... there were(maybe still are) heavy discussions on whether MK should be banned or not..)

And he still hasn't been, and shouldn't be.

There's a top tier in every fighting game I know of.

Because ThreadOpener talked about Action kk

..And why do only items = action? I find items on to be pretty boring.

A Combo is a row of attacks - If the first Attack hits, the following one hit 100%. And a Combo works all the time (If the 1st Hit hits)

Besides some "Jab-Combos" (Which is spamming A) there are no real Combos in Brawl. The tiny Hitstun allows Players to Airdodge/Shield/Dodge all the time.

Chaingrab? Well.. those only work under specific conditions: In Smash it'd be the %%% // or if there is a Wall...

JPOBS disagrees with that definition, and I'm split on it, but using that definition, chaingrabs = combos. You are guaranteed to connect with Dedede's second d-grab after his first, assuming you still have ledge room and you perform the dash-grab correctly.

Aside from chaingrabs, there are a few true combos. My main ROB's glide toss gives him lots of potential combos.

Apparently you don't know that the SF-Community alone is much bigger than Smash?

I do know that.Most of that has to do with the learning curve not being too steep. After all, players do have to get into the game at some point.

Your wrong. It can be avoided. And good Developers will strive for Balance.

Give me an example of a fighting game where there is more than one character and no character has an advantage over another.

It's a simple way to kill others. Even more so for chars like Olimar. Which adds to Imbalance and Unfairness towards certain Characters.

If you couldn't edge-guard Olimar, he'd be completely broken.It isn't just random who is more gimpable. It's part of the balance of the game. Snake is also easily gimped.

It is incredible how KOF or Tekken are considered inferior to Smash... they are bouth a ton deeper than Brawl and millions will agree to this statement.

It's also incredible how many people refuse to acknowledge Smash as a competitive fighter. But to each their own.

We actually want to compete with our Skills. And this can't be done if a game doesn't depend much on Skill.

It's a different kind of skill. To me, complicated inputs just get in the way.

I'm not saying that Brawl doesn't depend on Skill... but others just focus much more on Skill...

The Fact that Brawl was designed to be a Party Game and games like SF, KOF or Tekken are pure Fighting Games should be indiputeable.

Developers on Brawl cared much more on Items or SmashBall Animations than on actual Balance or Deep Gameplay.

Brawl was designed to be a simple game where anyone can join. (Hence the Easy Executions like direction+b=specialmove)

The game can't be designed to be both?

People can refer to Brawl as competitive and deep if they want.. but they should think of brawl as a good Fighting Game.

Because it simply isn't.

Your fighters have competition. Deal with it.
Shoooryuken