The Death of disk formats, the return of Cartridges

With all the topics bouncing around about blu-ray winning and HD-DVD losing I have not sen anyone talk about what really matters in Disk formats.....

LOADING....

So fr the bigger disk storage we have the longer loading time. and I hear people speaking about the END OF BLU-RAY being ANOTHER DISK FORMAT.

The solid state cartridges will return, I have seen 8gb flash drives going for $29, and I can see 100gb drives for low cost not to far off.

Seeing how solid state drives have no loading time, I believe cartridges will return to be the main format of storing games (supposing they aren't down-loadable content)

Even if they are, a HDD will also have loading time, and I believe Hard drives will become SSD

The Disk era is coming to an end.

Yeah, I mean what if you walk in the shop and instead of buying an actual disc you get a USB stick, or the game is on a flash card like those DS games.

Its possible, and you don't have to worry about the 360 scratching your discs.

Wont happen. Piracy would become far too easy.Shazenab

I thought disk formats were easier to pirate. Thats why Nintendo changed their minds about using disks during the 64 era and used smaller discs rather than DVD-ROMS for the GC, isnt it?

[QUOTE="Shazenab"]Wont happen. Piracy would become far too easy.Quofan

I thought disk formats were easier to pirate. Thats why Nintendo changed their minds about using disks during the 64 era and used smaller discs rather than DVD-ROMS for the GC, isnt it?

Yup... Though when the Snes was out i had something called a Wild Card which allowed me to copy games which was easy!!

[QUOTE="Shazenab"]Wont happen. Piracy would become far too easy.Quofan

I thought disk formats were easier to pirate. Thats why Nintendo changed their minds about using disks during the 64 era and used smaller discs rather than DVD-ROMS for the GC, isnt it?

They are, the only thing keeping bluray unhacked its the extensive copy protection being implimented in them, which will be bypassed soon enough, there is no such thing as a perfect defense they could easily add in extra protection into these....cartridge type formats or hdd disc or something but it would be bypassed eventually.

[QUOTE="Shazenab"]Wont happen. Piracy would become far too easy.Quofan

I thought disk formats were easier to pirate. Thats why Nintendo changed their minds about using disks during the 64 era and used smaller discs rather than DVD-ROMS for the GC, isnt it?

Well custom carts are harder to pirate than discs, but flash drives can have anything installed on them, which is an advantage to debelopment but also to piracy.

DS carts are basically flash carts and they have been easily hijacked for the wrong reasons, as has the PSPs memory sticks.

The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.xscrapzx

Where did that come from though? because I have always found disk drives burn out eventually but never had any problem with cartridges with the exception of having to blow the actually Nes cartridges, but to be fair they were over 10 years old. I would have thought laser diodes have a lower life expectancy.

Read speeds increase. Loading not as big of an issue.

/thread

ow yeah i love to go back to the 80 to 100 dallar zelda or final fantasie days. if they did this then sony's and micosoft would not be a entertainment systems because no movie watching on them. na i love watching my dvd and blu-ray on my ps 3 no need to waste more money on stand alone systems.GARRYTH

Since MS are aiming for a DD service I doubt they'll be supporting disc formats much longer.

Read speeds increase. Loading not as big of an issue.

/thread

StringGuard

The device is still interfacing with the media via optical technology, this will not reach the speeds of a direct connection for some time.

[QUOTE="GARRYTH"]ow yeah i love to go back to the 80 to 100 dallar zelda or final fantasie days. if they did this then sony's and micosoft would not be a entertainment systems because no movie watching on them. na i love watching my dvd and blu-ray on my ps 3 no need to waste more money on stand alone systems.Shazenab

Since MS are aiming for a DD service I doubt they'll be supporting disc formats much longer.

nah microsoft likes to talk about DD but they aren't stupid enough to totally cut out an actual media format no one would buy they're system if they did.

The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.xscrapzx

Doesn't this depend on the times there's data written to the disc?

Since these would only be used to read from I would expect them to last a very long time.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.csliney

Where did that come from though? because I have always found disk drives burn out eventually but never had any problem with cartridges with the exception of having to blow the actually Nes cartridges, but to be fair they were over 10 years old. I would have thought laser diodes have a lower life expectancy.

I'm not specifically talking about cd-roms or catridges. In general solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of let say a hard disk drive. That is why you will see disk format for a long long time before solid state will start to show up as a big media contender. I dont know the life expectancy of a laser diodes or actually game cartridges, but I do know that thumb drives, or even the newer solid state drives, do not have the life expetancy that of a regular hard disk drive.

[QUOTE="GARRYTH"]ow yeah i love to go back to the 80 to 100 dallar zelda or final fantasie days. if they did this then sony's and micosoft would not be a entertainment systems because no movie watching on them. na i love watching my dvd and blu-ray on my ps 3 no need to waste more money on stand alone systems.Shazenab

Since MS are aiming for a DD service I doubt they'll be supporting disc formats much longer.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.50u1r34v3r

Doesn't this depend on the times there's data written to the disc?

Since these would only be used to read from I would expect them to last a very long time.

You probably have a point there, but the post creator is talking about disk drives disappearing all together, and I simply stated that, that wont happen because of the life expectancy.

[QUOTE="csliney"]

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.xscrapzx

Where did that come from though? because I have always found disk drives burn out eventually but never had any problem with cartridges with the exception of having to blow the actually Nes cartridges, but to be fair they were over 10 years old. I would have thought laser diodes have a lower life expectancy.

I'm not specifically talking about cd-roms or catridges. In general solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of let say a hard disk drive. That is why you will see disk format for a long long time before solid state will start to show up as a big media contender. I dont know the life expectancy of a laser diodes or actually game cartridges, but I do know that thumb drives, or even the newer solid state drives, do not have the life expetancy that of a regular hard disk drive.

What?? So static state drives have a shorter life expectancy than mechanical ones? That's just untrue.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="csliney"]

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.householdman

Where did that come from though? because I have always found disk drives burn out eventually but never had any problem with cartridges with the exception of having to blow the actually Nes cartridges, but to be fair they were over 10 years old. I would have thought laser diodes have a lower life expectancy.

I'm not specifically talking about cd-roms or catridges. In general solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of let say a hard disk drive. That is why you will see disk format for a long long time before solid state will start to show up as a big media contender. I dont know the life expectancy of a laser diodes or actually game cartridges, but I do know that thumb drives, or even the newer solid state drives, do not have the life expetancy that of a regular hard disk drive.

What?? So static state drives have a shorter life expectancy than mechanical ones? That's just untrue.

Um ya it is true, look it up. They HAVE gotten better, but they still dont have the life expectancy that of a hard disk drive. A lot of the older solid state drives such as thumb drives used to rely on a battery for the memory to be available when there was no power via the usb. That has now sense changed, which means they are lasting longer. They still are not as reliable as hard disk drives, and not only that they are very very expensive, for a 30gig solid hard drive its like 3, 400 bucks.

[QUOTE="Shazenab"]

[QUOTE="GARRYTH"]ow yeah i love to go back to the 80 to 100 dallar zelda or final fantasie days. if they did this then sony's and micosoft would not be a entertainment systems because no movie watching on them. na i love watching my dvd and blu-ray on my ps 3 no need to waste more money on stand alone systems.GARRYTH

Since MS are aiming for a DD service I doubt they'll be supporting disc formats much longer.

I didn't mean MS will switch to DD with their new console, or anything like that. But in time it WILL happen. Microsoft even went on the record to say Blu-Ray is only bridging the gap so that download speeds can increase and become more stable.

[QUOTE="50u1r34v3r"]

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.xscrapzx

Doesn't this depend on the times there's data written to the disc?

Since these would only be used to read from I would expect them to last a very long time.

You probably have a point there, but the post creator is talking about disk drives disappearing all together, and I simply stated that, that wont happen because of the life expectancy.

I could see HDDs moving over for their solid state counter parts (in a foreseeable future), but I think optical drives like Blu Ray, CD and DVD and their successors will be here for quite a while.

That is the best idea i have ever seen on these forums :P

Game systems would be smaller too, although i dont know about the bandwidth etc of flashcards but it could work!

I honestly thought the actual physical size (as in what you hold in your hands, not the space on the disc) of discs would get smaller in the future. But they are just stuck at one size.

[QUOTE="householdman"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="csliney"]

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.xscrapzx

Where did that come from though? because I have always found disk drives burn out eventually but never had any problem with cartridges with the exception of having to blow the actually Nes cartridges, but to be fair they were over 10 years old. I would have thought laser diodes have a lower life expectancy.

I'm not specifically talking about cd-roms or catridges. In general solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of let say a hard disk drive. That is why you will see disk format for a long long time before solid state will start to show up as a big media contender. I dont know the life expectancy of a laser diodes or actually game cartridges, but I do know that thumb drives, or even the newer solid state drives, do not have the life expetancy that of a regular hard disk drive.

What?? So static state drives have a shorter life expectancy than mechanical ones? That's just untrue.

Um ya it is true, look it up. They HAVE gotten better, but they still dont have the life expectancy that of a hard disk drive. A lot of the older solid state drives such as thumb drives used to rely on a battery for the memory to be available when there was no power via the usb. That has now sense changed, which means they are lasting longer. They still are not as reliable as hard disk drives, and not only that they are very very expensive, for a 30gig solid hard drive its like 3, 400 bucks.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

I will condeed the price as a problem for solid state drives, however, HDD's have the highest failure rate of any internal componant of a PC, save optical drives/disk drives. Flash drives are pretty much just more advanced variations of the rom chips on your mobo.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

householdman

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="householdman"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="csliney"]

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]The only problem with your theory is the fact that solid state drives don't have the life expectancy that of a disk drive. They have gotten better than in the past but they are still not as reliable as a disk drive.householdman

Where did that come from though? because I have always found disk drives burn out eventually but never had any problem with cartridges with the exception of having to blow the actually Nes cartridges, but to be fair they were over 10 years old. I would have thought laser diodes have a lower life expectancy.

Um ya it is true, look it up. They HAVE gotten better, but they still dont have the life expectancy that of a hard disk drive. A lot of the older solid state drives such as thumb drives used to rely on a battery for the memory to be available when there was no power via the usb. That has now sense changed, which means they are lasting longer. They still are not as reliable as hard disk drives, and not only that they are very very expensive, for a 30gig solid hard drive its like 3, 400 bucks.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

Look I know it doesn't sound right to you but it is a fact, and I'll say it again they have gotten better, but please check this out and it will explain it a lot better for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive.

[QUOTE="householdman"]

I will condeed the price as a problem for solid state drives, however, HDD's have the highest failure rate of any internal componant of a PC, save optical drives/disk drives. Flash drives are pretty much just more advanced variations of the rom chips on your mobo.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

HuusAsking

Yea, but were talking about hundreds of thousands of write cycles, and that's for those cheap POS you buy from electronic stores. As I said, price is an issue, but it is more than possible to create a drive that will withstand more write cycles than you could possibly do in the space of a normal HDDs life cycle. There is also optimization techniques that would be implemented, such as putting more emphasis in running core software directly from RAM banks, as opposed from the main storage facility of the computer.

Electrical interference, psychical knocks, power failures, over use, intense heat...all these things can cause head crashes or worse in an HDD, a lot of the time rendering the device useless and the data unsalvagable.

When it comes down to it, static hardware is simply more reliable than mechanical. The cost is really the only major barrier. How many thousands of times do you rewrite data onto RAM? Yet it doesn't fail as often as HDDs do.

I'm not trying to claim that HDDs are less reliable than the flash drives you will buy from Radio shack or whatever, simply that given the reasources, flash drives could be manufactored that would far outlast a traditional HDD.

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="householdman"]

I will condeed the price as a problem for solid state drives, however, HDD's have the highest failure rate of any internal componant of a PC, save optical drives/disk drives. Flash drives are pretty much just more advanced variations of the rom chips on your mobo.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

householdman

Yea, but were talking about hundreds of thousands of write cycles, and that's for those cheap POS you buy from electronic stores. As I said, price is an issue, but it is more than possible to create a drive that will withstand more write cycles than you could possibly do in the space of a normal HDDs life cycle. There is also optimization techniques that would be implemented, such as putting more emphasis in running core software directly from RAM banks, as opposed from the main storage facility of the computer.

Electrical interference, psychical knocks, power failures, over use, intense heat...all these things can cause head crashes or worse in an HDD, a lot of the time rendering the device useless and the data unsalvagable.

Im sorry your write and we are all wrong, and basically what you are saying in order to make those awesome solid state drives last long is by implementing something that doesn't even exsist right now! So you are agreeing with the rest of us, whats your point?

It's too damn expensive, that's all there is to it.elektrixxx

Its hard to beat the one or two cents it costs to make a disc versus...how much for those cartridges? Maybe a dollar or more?

Does no one remember Mario 64 costing 80 dollars versus 50 dollar PS games?

[QUOTE="householdman"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="householdman"]

I will condeed the price as a problem for solid state drives, however, HDD's have the highest failure rate of any internal componant of a PC, save optical drives/disk drives. Flash drives are pretty much just more advanced variations of the rom chips on your mobo.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

xscrapzx

Yea, but were talking about hundreds of thousands of write cycles, and that's for those cheap POS you buy from electronic stores. As I said, price is an issue, but it is more than possible to create a drive that will withstand more write cycles than you could possibly do in the space of a normal HDDs life cycle. There is also optimization techniques that would be implemented, such as putting more emphasis in running core software directly from RAM banks, as opposed from the main storage facility of the computer.

Electrical interference, psychical knocks, power failures, over use, intense heat...all these things can cause head crashes or worse in an HDD, a lot of the time rendering the device useless and the data unsalvagable.

Im sorry your write and we are all wrong, and basically what you are saying in order to make those awesome solid state drives last long is by implementing something that doesn't even exsist right now! So you are agreeing with the rest of us, whats your point?

Of course it exists, as I pointed out, it's just too pricey to use at the scale needed, at this point in time. I'm just saying the technology is sound, more so than that of a mechanical drive. Don't blame me for the lackluster implementation.

I'm not trying to claim that HDDs are less reliable than the flash drives you will buy from Radio shack or whatever, simply that given the reasources, flash drives could be manufactored that would far outlast a traditional HDD.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="householdman"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="householdman"]

I will condeed the price as a problem for solid state drives, however, HDD's have the highest failure rate of any internal componant of a PC, save optical drives/disk drives. Flash drives are pretty much just more advanced variations of the rom chips on your mobo.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

householdman

Yea, but were talking about hundreds of thousands of write cycles, and that's for those cheap POS you buy from electronic stores. As I said, price is an issue, but it is more than possible to create a drive that will withstand more write cycles than you could possibly do in the space of a normal HDDs life cycle. There is also optimization techniques that would be implemented, such as putting more emphasis in running core software directly from RAM banks, as opposed from the main storage facility of the computer.

Electrical interference, psychical knocks, power failures, over use, intense heat...all these things can cause head crashes or worse in an HDD, a lot of the time rendering the device useless and the data unsalvagable.

Im sorry your write and we are all wrong, and basically what you are saying in order to make those awesome solid state drives last long is by implementing something that doesn't even exsist right now! So you are agreeing with the rest of us, whats your point?

Of course it exists, as I pointed out, it's just too pricey to use at the scale needed, at this point in time. I'm just saying the technology is sound, more so than that of a mechanical drive. Don't blame me for the lackluster implementation.

I'm not trying to claim that HDDs are less reliable than the flash drives you will buy from Radio shack or whatever, simply that given the reasources, flash drives could be manufactored that would far outlast a traditional HDD.

I understand where you are coming from, but if its not being implemented, (which you could say about a lot of technology) it doesn't exsist at this time. So there for you have a reliability issue with solid state drives.

[QUOTE="householdman"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="householdman"][QUOTE="HuusAsking"][QUOTE="householdman"]

I will condeed the price as a problem for solid state drives, however, HDD's have the highest failure rate of any internal componant of a PC, save optical drives/disk drives. Flash drives are pretty much just more advanced variations of the rom chips on your mobo.

I mean. HDDs rely on a delicate unison of heads and magnetic plates that act in much the same manner as a rewritable cd. It has native issues. It's like comparing a portable cd player with an ipod.....Flash drives are essentially a single electrical component, all the otherstuff that's on the pcb is to facilitate data transfer and power managment.

xscrapzx

Yea, but were talking about hundreds of thousands of write cycles, and that's for those cheap POS you buy from electronic stores. As I said, price is an issue, but it is more than possible to create a drive that will withstand more write cycles than you could possibly do in the space of a normal HDDs life cycle. There is also optimization techniques that would be implemented, such as putting more emphasis in running core software directly from RAM banks, as opposed from the main storage facility of the computer.

Electrical interference, psychical knocks, power failures, over use, intense heat...all these things can cause head crashes or worse in an HDD, a lot of the time rendering the device useless and the data unsalvagable.

Im sorry your write and we are all wrong, and basically what you are saying in order to make those awesome solid state drives last long is by implementing something that doesn't even exsist right now! So you are agreeing with the rest of us, whats your point?

Of course it exists, as I pointed out, it's just too pricey to use at the scale needed, at this point in time. I'm just saying the technology is sound, more so than that of a mechanical drive. Don't blame me for the lackluster implementation.

I'm not trying to claim that HDDs are less reliable than the flash drives you will buy from Radio shack or whatever, simply that given the reasources, flash drives could be manufactored that would far outlast a traditional HDD.

I understand where you are coming from, but if its not being implemented, (which you could say about a lot of technology) it doesn't exsist at this time. So there for you have a reliability issue with solid state drives.

Yea, but we are discussing this in a topic that specificlly deals with the future and possible media changes. I'd say that the things I have stated here a more than relevant. I don't expect PCs with solid state storage facilities to be realesed in the next few years any more than I expect support for optical drives to suddenly drop and be replaced with the cart revolution :P

I would imagine discs are alot cheaper.... and always will be?Meu2k7

It literally costs about two pennies to make ONE disc. The only materials involved are a very small amount of plastic, and a exceptionally thin layer of metal. Not only are discs cheaper, the amount of materials involved is also astronomically low.

Of course it exists, as I pointed out, it's just too pricey to use at the scale needed, at this point in time. I'm just saying the technology is sound, more so than that of a mechanical drive. Don't blame me for the lackluster implementation.

I'm not trying to claim that HDDs are less reliable than the flash drives you will buy from Radio shack or whatever, simply that given the reasources, flash drives could be manufactored that would far outlast a traditional HDD.

householdman

Yeah, I mean what if you walk in the shop and instead of buying an actual disc you get a USB stick, or the game is on a flash card like those DS games.

Its possible, and you don't have to worry about the 360 scratching your discs.

PelekotansDream

Thats the 360, the PS3 can play a scratched disks, thats one of the good things about Blu-Ray.

With all the topics bouncing around about blu-ray winning and HD-DVD losing I have not sen anyone talk about what really matters in Disk formats.....

LOADING....

So fr the bigger disk storage we have the longer loading time. and I hear people speaking about the END OF BLU-RAY being ANOTHER DISK FORMAT.

The solid state cartridges will return, I have seen 8gb flash drives going for $29, and I can see 100gb drives for low cost not to far off.

Seeing how solid state drives have no loading time, I believe cartridges will return to be the main format of storing games (supposing they aren't down-loadable content)

Even if they are, a HDD will also have loading time, and I believe Hard drives will become SSD

The Disk era is coming to an end.

drew0011

Do you have a PS3, if so you would know that not all games have long load times, thats without the 5gb install.

Here's the big problem with your theory.

Any kind of small external memory unit is slow at wright and read speeds (unless you spend about double the cash to get a fast model). They are also costly to produce.

Yeah I can see that happening. Even though the chip or the electronic part looks the same on most SD, MSD, all they really would have to change is the plastic surrounding the actual electronic chip and make it to where the game system won't play the game unless the card was the correct shape.

An 8 gig falsh drive is $29...but you are paying for an EMPTY medium. An empty CD or DVD by comparison costs only pennies.

What you fail to take into account is that, even with games costing $50 - $60, some developers still lose money. If you were to put those games onto a 8 gig flash drive, you would have to pay $79 - $89 for a game. More if the game requires more than 8 gig of storage space.

That is why we left carts in the first place. It had nothing to do with space; they just made games cost too much.