The difference between PS4's Gaikai Streaming Service and Xbox "Cloud"

There are some really stupid posts here. What is happening to SWNEWMAHAY

[QUOTE="NEWMAHAY"]There are some really stupid posts here. What is happening to SWPraetorianMan

I deal with the Azure network on a day-to-day basis, and I can tell everyone here that the cloud's power is real.

[QUOTE="NEWMAHAY"]There are some really stupid posts here. What is happening to SWPraetorianMan

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="RR360DD"]

 

They're already using Azura in Halo 4 in terms of analysing data and getting insight into player preferences. Basically it runs the games back-end supporting services, and runs the games key multiplayer components.

OrangeTabbyCat

You just said every matchmaking service in the world. Absolutly nothing is unique about that.

Dedicated servers even have a master server which the game client connects to so they can see the dedicated servers. This master server can do all of that stats tracking and whatnot when talking to the server. That's how Battlelog for BF3 operates, that's how CoD operates, that's how every MMO and nearly every FPS operates. The ones that are client side don't work well as it's too easy to maniuplate them.

From one programmer to another, can you explain to people why it's not actually feasibly possible to use the cloud to do any kind of significant real-time processing?

They'll take you more seriously than they would me.

Latency, simple as that. Doesn't take a programmer to figure out that even a great latency of 5ms is a lifetime for rendering. You're rendering at the minimum 30 frames per second. In order for this to work you've got to get the packets ready to send, send them, wait for transfer to complete, wait for processing on the server side to be completeted, download the processed packets, then continue to render. Repeat that cycle for every frame. In one minute of rendering the console will have rendered 1,800 frames. Add even 2ms to that time and you get 3.6 extra seconds of rendering time in that one minute. A 5ms latency would add 9 seconds and a still fantastic 30 ms would add 54 seconds. But let's be honest, unless you live next to the server farm doing all of this you're going to get a latency of 50+.

Just not possible.

There are some really stupid posts here. What is happening to SWNEWMAHAY

It's been a special brand of stupidity the last few months. It was a lot better when there were a lot of unknowns. Those gaps are being filled. We know what's going on and that's making it really difficult for the companies to bullshit their way to the top.

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Actually the Cloud and Sony's network are built for player convenience. Cloud game saves, sharing pictures, videos, more connected social networking with friends, much more seamless transition of data between mobile devices and hardware.

 

RR360DD

For all that MS have invested in the cloud tech, the only thing real and tangable that anyone can see from what they are doing is that they will be using kinect to collect and store people's information.

Actually thats total bullshit

:lol:

They're already using Azura in Halo 4 in terms of analysing data and getting insight into player preferences. Basically it runs the games back-end supporting services, and runs the games key multiplayer components.

So every multiplayer ever done? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:  are u that stupid that they have you believing doing that is some kind of revolutionary system?

[QUOTE="NEWMAHAY"]There are some really stupid posts here. What is happening to SWPraetorianMan

sw is always full of morons, but damn since they announced xbone lems apologists have gone full meltdown making bs left and right to try and compensate the weakest presentation ever of a console, coupled with a lot of tv and kinect focus and the worst anti consumer practices ever seen.

I deal with the Azure network on a day-to-day basis, and I can tell everyone here that the cloud's power is real.

Ly_the_Fairy

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

I deal with the Azure network on a day-to-day basis, and I can tell everyone here that the cloud's power is real.

Heil68

One and Done, baby! :cool:

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

I deal with the Azure network on a day-to-day basis, and I can tell everyone here that the cloud's power is real.

Ly_the_Fairy

One and Done, baby! :cool:

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"] So the X1 will be more powerful than a top end PC and be future proof? Will the X1 be MS's last console, because of the infinite power of the cloud? Holy shit! :oHeil68

One and Done, baby! :cool:

Azure is the future.

Xbox 360 is the past.

That's why there's no BC :cool:

[QUOTE="OrangeTabbyCat"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

You just said every matchmaking service in the world. Absolutly nothing is unique about that.

Dedicated servers even have a master server which the game client connects to so they can see the dedicated servers. This master server can do all of that stats tracking and whatnot when talking to the server. That's how Battlelog for BF3 operates, that's how CoD operates, that's how every MMO and nearly every FPS operates. The ones that are client side don't work well as it's too easy to maniuplate them.

Wasdie

From one programmer to another, can you explain to people why it's not actually feasibly possible to use the cloud to do any kind of significant real-time processing?

They'll take you more seriously than they would me.

Latency, simple as that. Doesn't take a programmer to figure out that even a great latency of 5ms is a lifetime for rendering. You're rendering at the minimum 30 frames per second. In order for this to work you've got to get the packets ready to send, send them, wait for transfer to complete, wait for processing on the server side to be completeted, download the processed packets, then continue to render. Repeat that cycle for every frame. In one minute of rendering the console will have rendered 1,800 frames. Add even 2ms to that time and you get 3.6 extra seconds of rendering time in that one minute. A 5ms latency would add 9 seconds and a still fantastic 30 ms would add 54 seconds. But let's be honest, unless you live next to the server farm doing all of this you're going to get a latency of 50+.

Just not possible.

Those words have been spoken against much greater achievments.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="OrangeTabbyCat"]

From one programmer to another, can you explain to people why it's not actually feasibly possible to use the cloud to do any kind of significant real-time processing?

They'll take you more seriously than they would me.

GOGOGOGURT

Latency, simple as that. Doesn't take a programmer to figure out that even a great latency of 5ms is a lifetime for rendering. You're rendering at the minimum 30 frames per second. In order for this to work you've got to get the packets ready to send, send them, wait for transfer to complete, wait for processing on the server side to be completeted, download the processed packets, then continue to render. Repeat that cycle for every frame. In one minute of rendering the console will have rendered 1,800 frames. Add even 2ms to that time and you get 3.6 extra seconds of rendering time in that one minute. A 5ms latency would add 9 seconds and a still fantastic 30 ms would add 54 seconds. But let's be honest, unless you live next to the server farm doing all of this you're going to get a latency of 50+.

Just not possible.

Those words have been spoken against much greater achievments.

yeah microsoft is changing how internet works to bring TEH POWER OF TEH CLOUD. :lol:

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="OrangeTabbyCat"]

From one programmer to another, can you explain to people why it's not actually feasibly possible to use the cloud to do any kind of significant real-time processing?

They'll take you more seriously than they would me.

GOGOGOGURT

Latency, simple as that. Doesn't take a programmer to figure out that even a great latency of 5ms is a lifetime for rendering. You're rendering at the minimum 30 frames per second. In order for this to work you've got to get the packets ready to send, send them, wait for transfer to complete, wait for processing on the server side to be completeted, download the processed packets, then continue to render. Repeat that cycle for every frame. In one minute of rendering the console will have rendered 1,800 frames. Add even 2ms to that time and you get 3.6 extra seconds of rendering time in that one minute. A 5ms latency would add 9 seconds and a still fantastic 30 ms would add 54 seconds. But let's be honest, unless you live next to the server farm doing all of this you're going to get a latency of 50+.

Just not possible.

Those words have been spoken against much greater achievments.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="OrangeTabbyCat"]

From one programmer to another, can you explain to people why it's not actually feasibly possible to use the cloud to do any kind of significant real-time processing?

They'll take you more seriously than they would me.

GOGOGOGURT

Latency, simple as that. Doesn't take a programmer to figure out that even a great latency of 5ms is a lifetime for rendering. You're rendering at the minimum 30 frames per second. In order for this to work you've got to get the packets ready to send, send them, wait for transfer to complete, wait for processing on the server side to be completeted, download the processed packets, then continue to render. Repeat that cycle for every frame. In one minute of rendering the console will have rendered 1,800 frames. Add even 2ms to that time and you get 3.6 extra seconds of rendering time in that one minute. A 5ms latency would add 9 seconds and a still fantastic 30 ms would add 54 seconds. But let's be honest, unless you live next to the server farm doing all of this you're going to get a latency of 50+.

Just not possible.

Those words have been spoken against much greater achievments.

[QUOTE="RR360DD"]

[QUOTE="casharmy"]Yes...but that's Sony's network.  I was taking specifically about how MS plans to use the cloud.  

For all that MS have invested in the cloud tech, the only thing real and tangable that anyone can see from what they are doing is that they will be using kinect to collect and store people's information.

Krelian-co

Actually thats total bullshit

:lol:

They're already using Azura in Halo 4 in terms of analysing data and getting insight into player preferences. Basically it runs the games back-end supporting services, and runs the games key multiplayer components.

So every multiplayer ever done? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:  are u that stupid that they have you believing doing that is some kind of revolutionary system?

You think I don't know that? Point out in my post where I said that was new or unique?

:lol:

You really are the stupidest poster on SW.

I merely squashed cow fantasies that the cloud was built to spy on people LOL

If we assume the conspiracy theories about Kinect were true: - 

1 - If MS are using Kinect to spy on us and serve ads, then by definition, this goes against privacy laws. Now, if MS get this data via illegal means they would by definition be unable to use this information to serve ads. They could store it, granted, but by serving these ads they would be exposing their illegal data mining.

2 - MS do not make money from serving ads, Google does.

3 - Kinect "needs" to be on the whole time, because the XboxOne will switch on when Kinect hears a specific trigger. Pointless if Kinect is not on and able to listen.

Regards the gaikai comparisons (not sure if this was from you or others) but unless Sony have developed Gaikai dramatically from what the service was built to do, then it functions very differently to what XboxOne cloud system does. Gaikai was a video streaming service, literally compressing and sending video and only receiving controller input. In its normal form, it is not the same service. MS are (rightly or wrongly) going all-in with their plans for the future. You gotta give them credit for focusing on what they believe is the future. Majority, if not all, ideas only work if there's 110% dedication to a plan. 

Kinect "needs" to be on the whole time, because the XboxOne will switch on when Kinect hears a specific trigger. Pointless if Kinect is not on and able to listen.

/QUOTE] yes but isn't the camera on as well? its one thing to have a microphone on when the x1 is off but is the camera on as well, if it is then that makes no sense, at least to me..

 

Xbox cloud is 300,000 servers built specifically for enhancing Xbox One games which basically has infinite power.

The difference between this gen and last gen is going to be the cloud, and Sony is not going to be a part of it.

Miketheman83

:lol:

Cloud is a great idea in theory ,but I don't see how it will work in the future considering most internet providers throttle bandwith

So much bullshit :lol: This thread needs deletedRR360DD

See: butthurt.

Thank you.

[QUOTE="Obviously_Right"]

Gaikai = Real

Xbox's Cloud = Imaginary

WilliamRLBaker

[QUOTE="Obviously_Right"]

Gaikai = Real

Xbox's Cloud = Imaginary

WilliamRLBaker

Oops....

[QUOTE="rhodes1"]No, if i had a choice between PS4's RAW superior Tech Specs with a 50% increase in terraflops and DDR5 Ram compared to a "THEORITICAL" increase of 50% terraflops on some imaginary "cloud" service THAT NO DEVELOPER MAKING NEXT-GEN GAMES WILL EVER RISK DOING than I would take the PS4's raw power. This whole CLoud bullshit was a last second play by Microsoft after they found out that PS4 has superior Raw power.slipknot0129

Lets see who lasts longer. Ever improving graphics in the cloud or hardware that is always the same. 

Gaikai = Real

Xbox's Cloud = Imaginary

Obviously_Right

Onlive failed guys.

LegatoSkyheart

[QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

I deal with the Azure network on a day-to-day basis, and I can tell everyone here that the cloud's power is real.

Heil68

Top end X86 PCs uses similar hardware as X86 servers but without the enterprise level certifications.

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Ly_the_Fairy"]

I deal with the Azure network on a day-to-day basis, and I can tell everyone here that the cloud's power is real.

ronvalencia

Top end X86 PCs uses similar hardware as X86 servers but without the enterprise level certifications.

You are so full of shit.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="rhodes1"] What? MMO games REQUIRE High-End PC systems to run the Graphics/physics etc. the only thing the "Server" does in an MMO is the same thing a server does in Halo/Call of duty or any other online game! Which is to combine all the clients into one persistent world to play in. This whole Xbox "Cloud" thing is nothing more than a bunch of servers which ANY company can do. Blizzard is doing it right now with WoW, I am sure Blizzard likely owns 100,000+ servers to run there games . . but they dont use stupid buzzwords like "cloud". The Xbox One "Cloud" CAN NEVER, WILL NEVER ADD ANY GRAPHIC UPGRADES TO ANY NEXT-GEN GAME EVER. . . . EVERRRRRRRRRR If you had a single clue how games work you would never think it did in the first place. rhodes1

MMO doesn't require high-end PC systems i.e. I can run Star Trek Online or WOW from my laptop.

You're wrong. The Azure cloud is not being used for graphics. It's being used to create smarter AI for the people with internet fast enought to utilize it...superclocked

Which will be a pretty small percentage of the install base if it works well at all...which I doubt.

Cloud > PS4

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"] So the X1 will be more powerful than a top end PC and be future proof? Will the X1 be MS's last console, because of the infinite power of the cloud? Holy shit! :oStrongBlackVine

Top end X86 PCs uses similar hardware as X86 servers but without the enterprise level certifications.

You are so full of shit.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"] So the X1 will be more powerful than a top end PC and be future proof? Will the X1 be MS's last console, because of the infinite power of the cloud? Holy shit! :oStrongBlackVine

Top end X86 PCs uses similar hardware as X86 servers but without the enterprise level certifications.

You are so full of shit.

You're so full of shit.

AMD Radeon Sky 900 or AMD FirePro W9000 uses the same Radeon HD 7970 Ghz Edition ASIC.

NVIDIA Tesla K20 uses the same ASIC as NVIDIA GeForce Titan i.e. GK110.

Intel Xeon Processor E3-1290 v2 uses the same Intel Ivybridge design as Intel Core i7-3770.

I use top end PC hardware for non-enterprise tests, and make purchase recommendations for enterprise usage.

Cloud = Real 

Gaikai = won't even be ready for launch 

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

Top end X86 PCs uses similar hardware as X86 servers but without the enterprise level certifications.

superclocked

You are so full of shit.

I was saying he is full of shit in general when it comes what he says Da Cloud will do. Not that particular message that I quoted.

Cloud = Real 

Gaikai = won't even be ready for launch 

Far_RockNYC

PS4 doesn't need imaginary power to produce great games. Gaikai is not even concern right now. I understand why the lemmings are so focused on outside help though...Xflop is clearly outclassed.

[QUOTE="superclocked"][QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

You are so full of shit.

StrongBlackVine

I was saying he is full of shit in general when it comes what he says Da Cloud will do. Not that particular message that I quoted.

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

Top end X86 PCs uses similar hardware as X86 servers but without the enterprise level certifications.

ronvalencia

You are so full of shit.

You're so full of shit.

AMD Radeon Sky 900 or AMD FirePro W9000 uses the same Radeon HD 7970 Ghz Edition ASIC.

NVIDIA Tesla K20 uses the same ASIC as NVIDIA GeForce Titan i.e. GK110.

Intel Xeon Processor E3-1290 v2 uses the same Intel Ivybridge design as Intel Core i7-3770.

PS4 > Xflop in hardware. Nothing you research about da cloudz or theoretical projections of esram will change that fact.

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

[QUOTE="superclocked"]Oo.. What he said is true...ronvalencia

I was saying he is full of shit in general when it comes what he says Da Cloud will do. Not that particular message that I quoted.

Right now I'm doing contract work for Microsoft on linguistics research to help improve Kinect 2.0. I am clearly not an Xbox fan so that is kind of ironic.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

You are so full of shit.

StrongBlackVine

You're so full of shit.

AMD Radeon Sky 900 or AMD FirePro W9000 uses the same Radeon HD 7970 Ghz Edition ASIC.

NVIDIA Tesla K20 uses the same ASIC as NVIDIA GeForce Titan i.e. GK110.

Intel Xeon Processor E3-1290 v2 uses the same Intel Ivybridge design as Intel Core i7-3770.

PS4 > Xflop in hardware. Nothing you research about da cloudz or theoretical projections of esram will change that fact.

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

You're so full of shit.

 

AMD Radeon Sky 900 or AMD FirePro W9000 uses the same Radeon HD 7970 Ghz Edition ASIC.

NVIDIA Tesla K20 uses the same ASIC as NVIDIA GeForce Titan i.e. GK110.

Intel Xeon Processor E3-1290 v2 uses the same Intel Ivybridge design as Intel Core i7-3770.

ronvalencia

PS4 > Xflop in hardware. Nothing you research about da cloudz or theoretical projections of esram will change that fact.

So  you have never claimed that teh cloudz will make up for the gap in hardware power?

Gaikai is a service that runs entire games on the server and streams the video to a client, ala OnLive.

MS's Azure Cloud is a bunch of general purpose servers, that the XBox platform will use for dedicated multiplayer servers, as well as functions such as cloud saves.

I'm not even sure what TC is talking about...

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

PS4 > Xflop in hardware. Nothing you research about da cloudz or theoretical projections of esram will change that fact.

StrongBlackVine

So you have never claimed that teh cloudz will make up for the gap in hardware power?

My answer is, it depends on the workload type.

I have always maintained there's a performance gap between PS4 and X1. The question would be the effective gap between X1 and PS4.

Note that MSI GX60 is a good case for what happens to a 7970M GPU (GeForce GTX 680M level) when it's gimped by an AMD CPU i.e. effective performance reduced to GeForce GT650M level. My laptop's Intel Core i7 maintains it's 8870M to about GTX 670M level performance.

Gaikai is a service that runs entire games on the server and streams the video to a client, ala OnLive.

 

MS's Azure Cloud is a bunch of general purpose servers, that the XBox platform will use for dedicated multiplayer servers, as well as functions such as cloud saves.

 

I'm not even sure what TC is talking about...

santoron

[QUOTE="santoron"]

Gaikai is a service that runs entire games on the server and streams the video to a client, ala OnLive.

 

MS's Azure Cloud is a bunch of general purpose servers, that the XBox platform will use for dedicated multiplayer servers, as well as functions such as cloud saves.

 

I'm not even sure what TC is talking about...

ronvalencia

Absolutely.  In my head I was including such under "dedicated multiplayer servers", but I didn't relay that very well.  Though while I'm sure they could be useful for single player AI, I highly doubt such a method would be very useful, considering both bandwith and latency limitations, and the practical nuisance of needing a stable internet connection to play your single player game.  It's that kind of thing that tends to set off players as well, as we've recently seen.  My guess is that devs will lean on it for mulltiplayer games only, and even then it might be a hassle to implement for multiplatform games, if Sony's platform would demand a different solution.

My point was that MS's servers, while a definite boon to gamers, aren't some mysterious and new technology, as far as their utility to the end user is concerned.  In fact, they'll be used as we've seen dedicated servers used for decades now on other platforms.

Sony's service is another animal entirely, though one that most gamers here dismissed the comparative value of long ago.  

Honestly, I can't believe so much time has passed without us knowing if Sony will be providing their own dedicated servers for the PS4.  If they are, they should announce it to help lay this whole "cloud" argument to rest.  If they aren't, well that's something I think most gamers would like to know before launch.