The Metagame of System Wars

I'd like to talk to you today about something a little controversial, but often misunderstood. The metagame of System Wars. I ask you to read through, both because metagame is a bit complicated and because it's something I've increasingly noticed, and become concerned with.

Everyone is aware that E3 2007 is coming. Each year, E3 has been a special time in System Wars. It's a time when a lot of fanboys and fakeboys come out to post their thoughts, but it's also a time when all of our best posters get a chance to debate the showcase for each system. Inevitably, it's going to be a time of a lot of back-and-forth dialogue between the supporters of each of the systems.

Unfortunately, it's also a time when we're going to see far too many trite and tired arguments show up, or simply illogical posts. We will also see the worst of the metagame violators. Often illogical or biased viewpoints are allowed to stand, simply because dissenters fear being mobbed, or are not sure how to express themselves, and they fall back on "metagame" arguments. Also concerning are the number of fanboys, fakeboys, and trolls this generates. How can we deal with this?

First, we are going to discuss the types of posters who make up the System Wars metagame, then we will discuss the metagame tactics, and how to deal with them.

However, some gamers would get into what we called "metagame thinking." Instead of saying things like "gathering my strength to smash the door, I feel confident, and swing strongly. With a mighty blow, I splinter the door with one swing", the say "I rolled a 19, I'm strength 18, so I get a +4 bonus, that's a 23, the standard door is strength 18 to break, so I break it."

This kind of discussion ruins the game, it encourages thinking about stats, power gaming, and ruins the experience for the rest of the people at the table. They are playing the game out-of-character, because they are not who they say they are. Instead of being Krall, Crusher of Skulls, they are "John, the guy playing krall, who's really concerned with besting his newbie friends"

This brings us to our first metagame offender of System Wars - the fakeboy.

A Fakeboy is a user who creates an account in order to pretend to be a die-hard fan of a system they do not support. They will often create offensive arguments simply to incite others to respond. This user is doing something much the same as a player in a D&D game who plays out-of-character. Instead of coming to System Wars to discuss gaming, they come into System Wars trying to incite responses. They are "playing the system (wars)" so to speak because they enjoy making people upset.

This type of poster, the fakeboy, is the first type of poster in the System Wars metagame.They detract from System Wars because they encourage dishonesty and deceit, rather than openness and communication.

Back to D&D. We mentioned stat sheets... well, these handy little pieces of paper made it easier for the person running the game, called the Game Master, to figure out how likely a player was to succeed or fail at an action. Combined with the roll of the dice, they determined everything from how charming they were with the ladies to how well they could swing a sword. Statistics sheets were merely a tool for setting guidelines, and they helped the Game Master (GM) keep consistency. The GM didn't have to worry about remembering if Krall, Crusher of Skulls was able to move a mountain, or barely able to lift a mouse - a quick glance at Krall's strength score on his stat sheet, and he knew just how strong Krall was.

Inevitably, what happened because of this was that some players of the game became extremely competitive. For them, it wasn't about the roleplaying experience, but being able to "win". These players would scour the rulebooks, looking for loopholes, unbalanced abilities, and whatever tricks they could find to make it so they were the champions of combat. These players became known as powergamers. Powergamers were not interested in role-playing, their goal was to get in as many fights as possible, and to dominate. So obsessive was their quest for power, that they became single-minded, and ruined the game for others. How could you negotiate with a diplomat, when one of your party members was busy bashing his skull in for easy experience?

This brings us to our next poster type in the System Wars metagame - the Fanboy.

Fanboys should not be confused with fans - a fanboy is an obsessive follower of one system or company, to the point where they will not acknowledge the strengths of other systems (or companies) and the faults of their own favorite system (or company). Fanboys are like powergamers, they are concerned with defending their own system and bashing the competition to the point of being closed-minded. Much like the powergamer, the are not open to new experiences, new games, new systems, or new ways of doing things because of their single-mindedness. Different from the fan (or the D&D player who enjoys combat), they will not admit faults, and respond with bashing instead of thoughtful debate. Manticores who are opposed to the idea that every system has faults are also a type of fanboy.

The Fanboy type of poster detracts from System Wars because they are not an open participant in discussion. Their opinion is shaped solely by the brand on a system or game and not by what that system or game has to offer. Regardless of what is said, they will always support brand A, and bash all other brands.

Lastly, we have one other type of "metagame" for System Wars posters - everyone else. Yup, everyone else, manticores,PC fans, 360 fans, Wii fans, PS3 fans, mods, GUFUs, Wii60s, PCWii gamers, you name it. Everyone else falls into the "The Masses" metagame, people you want to talk to gaming about, people who are looking for that thread that piques their interest, or just looking for someone to chat with. That's you, me, and thankfully most of the people here. Anyone who is not a Fakeboy or a Fanboy is part of the Masses.

The masses are good for System Wars. While they want people to respond to them, they are not fakeboys, they are honest about their opinions. While they might be fans of one system or game over another, they are not trolls, or close-minded. They have reasons for liking or disliking the systems they enjoy, and while every now and then they might get snippy (no one is perfect), they're generally a likeable sort. Most everyone falls into this group.

Note that the Masses really aren't metagame, they are in System Wars, following the TOS, posting because they love gaming. Metagame implies people who are "outside of the game" - people who are not here to enjoy. The Masses are capable of "metagame posting", which I'll discuss in the following section, but this is *very* different than being here only to cause trouble.

So how do we deal with Fakeboys and Fanboys?

There is only one suggestion I have for fakeboys and fanboys - ignore them, and move on. I think the mods who are most often here (casey and cake) would agree with my sentiments. If you are in a thread, and realize that the person posting has become belligerent, or that they are simply here to troll, leave the thread. Responding to a fakeboy simply encourages them. Despite your best intentions, a fanboy will not change their ways or admit fault (unlike a fan) in a discussion, your response is only encouragement for them to continue "the defense", because in their mind this is an all-out war, rather than a place where we can openly compare systems and games (across platforms).

This second (and final) part of the "metagame of System Wars" discussion deals with a far more important, and less commonly known area of System Wars - good debate. This section is longer and a bit more confusing, and will likely be more controversial. I have personally decided to share it because I believe it's important for System Wars posters to be prepared to really communicate their ideas come post-E3 discussions.

I do warn you, toward the end I will cover some advanced, but questionable techniques. I know I've offended GUFU in the past by using "probing", and a few posters have been miffed in the past when casey has used "trapping". I have personally resolved not to use probing in the future, because I feel the questionable tactics have no place in the "honest game" I would like to see replace the "metagame".

Let's begin!

Metagame Tactic - Mobbing

A poster will create a thread with a logical, but somewhat controversial argument, for example "_____ is a good system, but does ____________ really mean _____________?" hoping to feel people out on a controversial issue. However, instead of responding with their sentiments, posters will post things like "fission mailed", "uh, no", and "you're wrong". When the TC (topic creator) responds, they will again bash them, without stating their own reasoning. Each response to their responses is met with the same empty put-downs, until the TC is forced to give up.

This tactic detracts from System Wars for obvious reasons. It discourages free expression, it punishes posters who wish to discuss controversial subjects (after all, this is the only place to do it), and it creates a sort of union of dissenters. This is an unacceptable tactic, responses of dissent should be meaningful (contain your own viewpoint), and the TC should always be given an opportunity to clarify their ideas.

The proper way to respond to mobbing is to ignore the person using the tactic, and instead respond only to well written responses. If a person takes mobbing to the point of spamming, they should be reported.

Metagame Tactic - Trolling

Trolling is a metagame tactic beyond simple threads used to make fans of a system angry and generate a response. It is also a technique used to make people upset within a thread, so that they are quick (and often sloppy) to respond, giving the Troll an opportunity to use Mobbing or Pwning (covered in the next section). Trolling is when a poster will bash a game, system, et cetera in response, or change the topic into a bash, simply to incite enraged responses. The goal of all trolling is to generate hasty, upset responses.

Trolling is an unacceptable tactic because, by its very nature, it is designed to degrade System Wars.

To deal with a troll, only respond to the part of their comment relevant to the thread, and respond in a calm and collected manner. If you cannot do this, do not respond, allowing them to change the subject, or put you on the defensive is giving in to their trolling.

Metagame Tactic - Pwning

Pwning is a metagame tactic in which users posts a response they feel has "ended" the thread, often times in a hurtful or derogatory way. This means using statements like "end of discussion" and "/thread" and "pwned" or "owned". Pwning is cruel, mean, and arrogant - it assumes a response is without question, or that one poster can decide a debate. Since many discussions will never end, or have no right answer ("what is the best system?" for example) this is an unacceptable tactic.

To deal with Pwning, simple ignore the "end of thread" type comments, and respectfully respond if you disagree.

Metagame Tactics - Personal Attacks

Personal attacks are when a poster responds to another poster by making statements about them "you're just a casual / hardcore / Nintendo fan / Gizmondo fan / etc" instead of responding to their argument. Personal attacks are used to push a poster to defend themselves, rather than to defend their argument. It is sometimes an effective tactic when a poster make a good point, since it is far easier to upset someone by insulting them than by respectful debate.

Personal attacks are an unacceptable tactic. They show disrespect to the person posting, and take the debate off topic.

To respond to a personal attack, a simple "this is about ______ not about me", or simply ignoring it are both effective.

Metagame Tactics - Copy and Paste

The copy-and-paste is when a poster replies to a common debate topic by using a common, but trite response. For example, "gameplay > graphics". The reason this tactic is used is because the argument is often a concise response, or because the discussion topic might be extremely common, to the point of being annoying.

Copy-and-Paste is a questionable tactic. The pasted response might not perfectly fit what the poster is saying - it doesn't respect that many similar discussions can go in different directions. It also serializes discussion. It turns them into the same thread, over and over, rather than crafting a response to the individual points made, which can lead to new, exciting, and unexpected discussion.

I will not be providing responses to questionable tactics, because the proper way to deal with them is to be a good poster, there is no need for a "special response" because that special response would be a copy-and-paste in and of itself. The only acceptable use for copy-and-paste is for dealing with unacceptable tactics, and since the most acceptable way of doing that is by not responding, it is not suited.

Metagame Tactic -Probing

Probing is a tactic used against Fanboys and Copy-and-Paste posters that agrees with them on some points, differing in a few, but acceptable ways, that leads to a positive response. Repeatedly probing, a poster's goal is to make the TC recognize their own closed-minded view, or perhaps draw out the TC's true feelings, rather than the defense they have put up against system wars.

Probing is an unacceptable tactic because, while it can be benevolent and generate positive discussion, it is deceitful. In most cases, the same result can be achieved by saying "is that really what you mean, you don't really hate all __________ do you?" It also ignores that everyone has their off days (or posts) and can be embarrassing to posters.

I personally will not be using this tactic in the future. The best way to deal with it is to be honest about your feelings, and to think carefully before posting.

Metagame Tactic - Trapping

Trapping is an incredibly old tactic. Socrates and Plato used it in debates. Basically, the TC creates a thread where they say something like "so all of ________ feel _______ right?" They force posters to define something, and then used that definition to "spring the trap" on them. For example "the PS2 won because it had the most AAAs, we can all agree that, right?" - then, when many people agree, the poster will say "but the PC has had more AAAs since 2000 than the PS2!". This tactic is used to make people think about a commonly held belief.

This tactic is questionable, because it relies on pushing people into defining things (herding them) and relies on deceit. It is dishonest because the poster knew the "trap" information beforehand, but was instead using a shock or embarrassment tactic to drill the point home. It uses deceit, rather than honesty, so it can lead to fearful system wars posters, rather than posters feeling comfortable to share their opinion, free from the fear of embarrassment.

Metagame Tactic - Stigmatization
(credit to aeminjnb2006 )

The goal of this tactic is simple, call a game kiddy, say it's only for casuals, or call the game nerdy, dorky, or for losers. The goal is to associate the game with some group that is perceived as being "less than acceptable" in the gaming community.

This tactic is unacceptable, not only because it encourages rampant elitism, but because it implies that the poster has the right determine what games are right for everyone, or that they automatically know the audience of any game. Further, this false stigmatization is simple a cop-out, a poor tactic used in place of a solid, logical argument.

Why is metagame thinking bad?

Metagame thinking means "beyond the game" - it means thinking about System Wars as something that is "won" or "lost" rather than as a discussion about gaming. When we become obsessed with winning or losing, we often become close-minded, and lose sight of enjoying the game. We put "winning" and "ownage" before good, thoughtful debate.

What about legendary fanboys & fakeboys?
(credit to whoisryanmack )

Legendary fakeboys and fanboys might be funny, and while they toss up system wars, they also generate copycats. For every KeyWii, there are dozens of "lesser incarnations" that are not only not funny, but bury the more interesting posts by flooding the forum, trying to get the same huge responses their "legendary" ancestors received.

Posters interested in being remembered are far better of working to communicate their best ideas as eloquently as possible. System Wars never forgets the true greats, who contribute something special. As an added bonus, you are guaranteed to be appreciated (even if you don't realize it) by many people if you continue to create great posts. The only guarantee that comes with trolling is the guarantee of a ban.

Why do you enjoy metagame?

I enjoy studying the metagame, the tactics people use, how they work, and the mechanisms, because I was a competitive Magic: the Gathering player, and a social D&D player for many years. Both of these games have a metagame, and in both of them it becomes a bad, limiting factor. In Magic, players become afraid to be creative and play the deck they enjoy, because "well this deck is not the winning deck." In D&D, players ignore gameplay in favor of maximizing the numbers on their character sheet.

I look at how metagame thinking works because it's something that stands out to me when I view any closed system.

What can we do about the System Wars metagame?

Be a good poster, make your own decisions, think for yourself, never trust anyone to tell your side of the story for you (aka copy-paste) and respect other people. Understand why you feel the way you feel and discuss it with people!

ok, wow longest post i've ever read. and i'll admit i did skip tiny bits of it just to go faster.

anyway, i have to sasy i cant dissagree with you at all. fanboys and fakeboys are exactly how you portrayed them. and all the other metagames were pretty much spot on as well. i think we all need to post a little smarter, stop responding to all the dumb f*cks and just try to get our point across to the ones that will listen. good post TC, you have my applause.

I was about to say I was surprised that no one had commented on this piece, but a quick refresh seems to indicate people were still reading it :P.

In any case, this was an interesting analysis on the posting behaviors of the various users here. I personally don't expect discussions to move away from the "metagame" as you defined it, but there are sometimes a string of thoughtful posts before it goes back to the same old same old.

As long as I win this game my heart feels good.

TC, i'd like to let you know i am reading your post. once i'm done i'll edit this and give you my input. so far this sounds like an awesome idea.sensesxfail

I was about to say I was surprised that no one had commented on this piece, but a quick refresh seems to indicate people were still reading it :P. In any case, this was an interesting analysis on the posting behaviors of the various users here. I personally don't expect discussions to move away from the "metagame" as you defined it, but there are sometimes a string of thoughtful posts before it goes back to the same old same old. slick_gio

I think that it will improve over time - there are a lot of great posters and mods here, and more have been catching my eye every day. I recently found a few groups dedicated to improving System Wars. I was going to found my own, but I feel just saying what I have to say to the public will get the word out to far more people. Together the good posters can make System Wars a place for people who love gaming.

As long as I win this game my heart feels good.

JiveT

I am not a manticore (or I'm in serious denial, which is possible) but I do believe every piece of technology created serves some purpose to the whole. A graphics card that I don't buy still improves graphics, a motion controller is still something new, creative, and innovative on the market. But more to the point, like competition in capitalism, good debate improves us, exposes us to new ideas, and pushes us to be our best. There are many games I never would have played if not for System Wars, and many things I gave a chance, simply because someone said "you're wrong, look at this" - and I'd look, and say "hmm... you might be right."

Many people would be surprised to know that back in high school, as little as five years ago, I was a linux-obsessed, Microsoft-hating Nintendo fan. Now I have a DS and a Windows PC, but I learned about the wonders of the open-source movement and user-created content because of my exposure to Linux, and I never would have gotten into western RPGs, online gaming, or first person shooters if it wasn't for my exposure to the Xbox.

o something that was weird. in the trapping section, i noticed your example was almost an exact quote from caseys thread about who 'won' system wars last gen. i have to know was this on purpose? i dont remember if he actually brought up the PC remark.

anyawy subrosian, like i said earlier great post and i have to say, youre probably one of the best posters here.

Fist of all nice post. I think that this is the best description of System Wars I have read. It has become a race to see "who gets the most replies."

The problem is that threads that have any hint of "real" discussion get buried within minutes, because there are too many new competing threads started, all of them making ridiculous claims and all of them becoming "hot."

It is a really tough job though for the moderators because if they lock every single flamebait people will complain and leave the site, claiming that they don't have a voice.

The other problem is that a lot of system wars posters are children and they lack any experience in making concise arguments and at least acknowledging another's point of view. All they do is bash you and move on.

The only solution I see for the problem is by making official stickies. IE: Graphics Debate and all things related go here or Online Experience Debate and so forth. That way you can have a real long discussion of a single topic where all the facts, opinions and ideas are exposed. You could pretty much debunk or support any claim within those pages, since there will be a ton of responses for each topic.

[QUOTE="JiveT"]

As long as I win this game my heart feels good.

subrosian

System wars isn't about winning or losing, it's about thoughtful discussion. Metagame refers to the people who view it as a game, how they think, and what we can do, as posters who care about System Wars and love gaming, to make sure this stays as a safe place to discuss our feelings, rather than a den of fanboys, fakeboys, and trolls.

I don't really think it is about thoughtful discussion. The boards that are dedicated to various platforms seem to have plenty of thoughtful discussion. I think the popularity of System Wars has to do with the fact it does allow a certain amount of idiocy that would otherwise be modded. Within that idiocy there is a lot of fun to be had. This is a great forum for finding out news as soon as it hits and seeing the vitriolic knee jerk responses to it is consistently amusing. Without that metagame it becomes dry, the well is gone, the village dies.

o something that was weird. in the trapping section, i noticed your example was almost an exact quote from caseys thread about who 'won' system wars last gen. i have to know was this on purpose? i dont remember if he actually brought up the PC remark.

anyawy subrosian, like i said earlier great post and i have to say, youre probably one of the best posters here.

sensesxfail

I sometimes try to "spring" them, but Casey even fooled me with his last one. I appreciate the end result (he made us all wait, and wait, and wait, and then his decisive post never came - a reference to either a deceive PS3 victory, or deceive victory period, since this current system war is so split up, there will be no clear winner.)

But no, I am not calling Casey out, others use this tactic, he is one of the few who does it without being intentionally cruel. It is questionable, because I feel deceit is anathema to open communication.

That's part of why I've stopped using probing.

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="JiveT"]

As long as I win this game my heart feels good.

JiveT

System wars isn't about winning or losing, it's about thoughtful discussion. Metagame refers to the people who view it as a game, how they think, and what we can do, as posters who care about System Wars and love gaming, to make sure this stays as a safe place to discuss our feelings, rather than a den of fanboys, fakeboys, and trolls.

I don't really think it is about thoughtful discussion. The boards that are dedicated to various platforms seem to have plenty of thoughtful discussion. I think the popularity of System Wars has to do with the fact it does allow a certain amount of idiocy that would otherwise be modded. Within that idiocy there is a lot of fun to be had. This is a great forum for finding out news as soon as it hits and seeing the vitriolic knee jerk responses to it is consistently amusing. Without that metagame it becomes dry, the well is gone, the village dies.

I don't want mods locking down every flamebait, I just want us to be ready, and focus on honesty and fair tactics when E3 2007 comes. There are going to be *so many* trolling, fakeboy, and flamebait threads out there that without a lot of posters aware of the metagame responding to them. We should be ready because E3 is going to give us so much good, truly awesome news to discuss, that there's no reason to waste our time on trolls. With fall game releases coming, we really will be more than entertained in System Wars without them.

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

whoisryanmack

your sig completes your post. haha.

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

whoisryanmack

I have intentionally left out tactics that require extreme TOS violations, I felt that explaining tactics like how to perform a "three man blind" or "the telemarketer" would lead to a lot of problems for the mod, and I'm pretty sure I'd be banned for discussing them. Since there's no way for anyone other than a moderator to deal with those tactics, they will not be explained at all.

I think System Wars can rise to a better level without these metagame tactics. Better arguements force people to use more logic and have their wits about them, and lead to threads that are a lot more fun to read.

Of course, I don't enjoy posters who make the kind of threads that KeyWii and a few posters who haven't been banned (so I won't mentioned their names) made, so my opinion on that is different than what some people will hold. I'll just say, a few of these "really hardcore fanboy" posters goes a long way, and their lesser incarnations are simply more annoying than enjoyable.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

sensesxfail

your sig completes your post. haha.

My sig embodies everything that I love about SW.

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

whoisryanmack

While I agree that the metagaming and such make system wars fun, I also think that we need some more thought out posts, and actual debate, to balance it out.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

thriteenthmonke

While I agree that the metagaming and such make system wars fun, I also think that we need some more thought out posts, and actual debate, to balance it out.

This is true. There is an art to being a good fanboy/fakeboy. A thread that begins and ends with "ps3 sux!!" does nothing for me and is not worth the time.I really enjoy the few who can make a good argument about something that is obviously false or extremely biased, and then can back that up with intelligent, albeit flawed, logic. Those users typically get banned rather quickly, but I enjoy them while they're here.

[QUOTE="thriteenthmonke"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

whoisryanmack

While I agree that the metagaming and such make system wars fun, I also think that we need some more thought out posts, and actual debate, to balance it out.

This is true. There is an art to being a good fanboy/fakeboy. A thread that begins and ends with "ps3 sux!!" does nothing for me and is not worth the time.I really enjoy the few who can make a good argument about something that is obviously false or extremely biased, and then can back that up with intelligent, albeit flawed, logic. Those users typically get banned rather quickly, but I enjoy them while they're here.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="thriteenthmonke"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

This is an impressively insightful post and all...but in all honesty, half the reason, or maybe more, of coming to SW is the spectacle created by this "metagaming". If no one started flamebait posts, or argued with absurd and/or weak tactics, it would just be a ho-hum discussion about the same facts every single day. To be reeeaally honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what anyone else thinks about whatever game or system, so intelligent discussion does almost nothing for me. Gaming is just too simple for that, I like what I like and I can read news and reviews on my own. I see the forum as a logic challenge, and little more.

This is not to take away from your post, I just figure you'll get a million suck up posts and here's a counterpoint to make things interesting.

subrosian

While I agree that the metagaming and such make system wars fun, I also think that we need some more thought out posts, and actual debate, to balance it out.

This is true. There is an art to being a good fanboy/fakeboy. A thread that begins and ends with "ps3 sux!!" does nothing for me and is not worth the time.I really enjoy the few who can make a good argument about something that is obviously false or extremely biased, and then can back that up with intelligent, albeit flawed, logic. Those users typically get banned rather quickly, but I enjoy them while they're here.

People who would create threads like that exist *anyway* simply because extreme fans of every system exist. The fakeboy who creates one "great thread" that we all remember can spawn a dozen copycats who generate worthless "ps3 sux0rs" threads. Even if you want to jump on the "legendary threads" - the metagame tactics, and the ways of dealing with them, are still important for dealing with the copycat threads they spawn.

ahh yes. This is an element I hadn't considered. The posts I like beget the posts I hate ....hmm, my mind is blown. You should include this in your original post.

i have to admit, i both love and hate the meta game tactics.

when keywii awas here i absolutely hated him, but now thats he's gone i miss his posts. but on the flip side there are posters like tree branch who are the most annoying people i've ever dealt with on the internet.

I think that the biggest question is: "What do you expect from System Wars?" A lot of us come here to have a good laugh and to see the latest "ownage" being dished out or received.

I get a chuckle to see for example a Forza 2 COW car or to see Motorstorm flopping and COW's reaction to it. While I certainly think that SW can use somewhat of a more "mature" type of discussion, I don't think this is what most people come here for.

d & d reference? how much nerdier can this thread get?aeminjnb2006

I think that the biggest question is: "What do you expect from System Wars?" A lot of us come here to have a good laugh and to see the latest "ownage" being dished out or received.

I get a chuckle to see for example a Forza 2 COW car or to see Motorstorm flopping and COW's reaction to it. While I certainly think that SW can use somewhat of a more "mature" type of discussion, I don't think this is what most people come here for.

BlueBarad

Nice job subrosian. that was great :D(although it was a bit long) . I liked how you included the D&D stuff.

Nice job subrosian. that was great :D(although it was a bit long) . I liked how you included the D&D stuff.

dylan9999

I actually had to edit out a few of the D&D references to make room for Stigmitization and Legendary fanboys / fakeboys... I think it's important to know where "metagame" really comes from before we talk about how it works here. Magic: the Gathering actually has a more solidified and enforced metagame by the nature of the competition, but in M:tG the metagame isn't necessarily as bad as it is in D&D, or here. D&D is the root of many popular games anyway. D&D directly influenced a lot of early PC role-playing games, and even World of Warcraft still carries a lot of the structure from early pen-and-paper games.


System wars isn't really about winning or losing, just like D&D, we're all here for the story, the intersting threads, the conflict, and the reaction to the news from the gaming world. It really is the best board on Gamespot in my eyes, because it's the only board where it's okay to discuss a game in the world of gaming. If I mention Halo 3 on the 360 board, I can't talk about "well what about Haze?" - or if I discuss Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii board, it's not okay to ask how it's going to compare to Mass Effect.

This is the one place where we really discuss a game the way a real gamer sees it - next to all the other games - and I like to see good debate here.

:o...

Wow. That was really insightful. Very good post Subrosian.

Now I can see where the use of stats, as much as it's a needed factor to the SW table, affects it. What really makes this place dry is the willingness to 'Win.' That really opened my eyes a bit. Though I've been guilty in the past I've tried my best to leave my posts open to discussions and leave in a little low-blow for SW-esque flavor. But I know from what you wrote that I might have to try harder.

From now on I am known as Teh_Stevz the Shadow-bracer. I lurk in the nooks and crannies, avoiding being spotted to the naked eye, through all environments and settings to perform killings for gold and silver. No task is impossible, but you show me the other cheek I can become your worst enemy...

...

Well, I'm not sure how I'd get that spin on all my posts. :P

You've done quite a bit of good observation there, bravo.

While a year ago I would have responded quite negatively to the ideas presented, lately I've been thinking that it might great if this could be a place for very pointed discussions and comparisons of the various gaming platforms. It would certainly be nothing at all like the SW of old, but I suppose we have systemwars.com for that.

Anyway I hope everyone reads this, and thinks a bit about it. This "metagame" idea is new to me in that I've never heard the name, but the concept is certainly familiar.
Teufelhuhn

Many people are probably feeling the same way, metagame is just a carry-over term from D&D and Magic: the Gathering. Since D&D really became western RPGs, which in turn became MMORPGs, I think the term has a place in gaming. I've seen other posters discuss some aspects of it before, maybe getting into discussion on fakeboys or fanboys, but I thought it would be a good idea to solidify it with some of the tactics I felt safe putting up here.

I've kept a few really unsavory tactics out of here, but hopefully we'll never run into any of those. I honestly don't think System Wars can ever become the System Wars of old, but it can become something better. We're really at an interesting time in gaming simply because everyone is offering something so different, it's a waste to have dozens of people trying to become the next Yo_foo or KeyWii. I don't think that's what we'd want going forward.

This "metagame" idea is new to me in that I've never heard the name, but the concept is certainly familiar. Teufelhuhn

Though, I've played a very small amount of D&D, and a decent amount of M:tG, so I get it.

And, I definitely see its application on SW. I would even go so far as to say that I target the metagamers. The fakeboys and the like. Call them out, when I can, and I definitely ignore them once I realize what they're doing.

Anyway, it's early, and my brain is slow, but, great thread.

Edit: You mentioned the Forza Cow car, or someone did. It was genuinely cool. That's why it was... acceptable. Same with the breakfast wars thread. A breath of fresh ingenuity

Is it just creativity that separates the "good" from the "bad" fakeboys/fanboys?

I'm not sure if I consider extreme fanboys any different from "fakeboys". One pretends his mind is closed, while the other's mind is actually closed. Both have the same outcome, just one is worse because they do it on purpose.

Cool post.

You have to be carefull in this place. Alot come here as a fan and then get pushed into a corner so often by so many that they become fanboys. People make it out as if you HAVE to choose a side and stick with it no matter what.

Being a fanboy is the easiest thing to do in here.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]This "metagame" idea is new to me in that I've never heard the name, but the concept is certainly familiar. Jandurin

Though, I've played a very small amount of D&D, and a decent amount of M:tG, so I get it.

And, I definitely see its application on SW. I would even go so far as to say that I target the metagamers. The fakeboys and the like. Call them out, when I can, and I definitely ignore them once I realize what they're doing.

Anyway, it's early, and my brain is slow, but, great thread.

Edit: You mentioned the Forza Cow car, or someone did. It was genuinely cool.

Is it just creativity that separates the "good" from the "bad" fakeboys/fanboys?

The Forza 2 car came from a 360 fan, and while it was fanboyish, it was kind of cool, simply because it was creative. At the same time, it followed the metagame, and spawned dozens of other posters doing the same thing, so even "the best" fanboy has a negative effect on system wars in the long run. All fakeboys are bad, as interesting as taking a bias to an extreme just to draw out misinformed statements seems in theory, it is based on deception, and brings out the worst in posters. At the end of the day, what is it accomplished, other than reinforcing in some poster's minds the idea that they have to be offensive to get noticed?

I feel that creativity can make something more palatable, however it never makes deception or hatred acceptable.

"Playing the metagame" is a strategy in Magic: the Gathering in which a player would bring a deck to a tournament, aware of the main three decks at the tournament (power deck, counter-power deck, counter-counter-power deck) but attempt to win by always having a strength to their weakness, and no weakness exploitable by their strengths.

I did not get into M:tG tournament metagame because it is ultimately about winning - which System Wars is not. D&D is a cooperative game, and System Wars is a cooperative endevour. Sure, we could go Sherman's Total War, but what does that accomplish, other than trashing system wars and making the supposed "victory" ring hollow? We're all really betting on someone reading our posts and responding intelligently, and when it just gets reduced into a couple of camps all spawning the same fanboy response, intelligent thought has ultimately stopped.

The only comparison to Magic I'd try is comparing system wars to a huge multiplayer game of magic. We're not really worried about winning or losing, so much as seeing what happens when you get dozens of people together doing all kinds of crazy things, and see how those interactions play out.

The Forza 2 car came from a 360 fan, and while it was fanboyish, it was kind of cool, simply because it was creative. At the same time, it followed the metagame, and spawned dozens of other posters doing the same thing, so even "the best" fanboy has a negative effect on system wars in the long run. All fakeboys are bad, as interesting as taking a bias to an extreme just to draw out misinformed statements seems in theory, it is based on deception, and brings out the worst in posters. At the end of the day, what is it accomplished, other than reinforcing in some poster's minds the idea that they have to be offensive to get noticed?subrosian

Agreed. I briefly considered the whole fakeboy route myself as an attempt to have some fun and get noticed. As I was considering "strategy" as it were, I came to the conclusion that being a fakeboy was the exact opposite of what I was striving for, and since then have tried to be as honest as I could in my posts.

Funny that considering becoming "evil" as it were was what made me decide to be as "good" as I could be. At which, I still fail, but I am only hyoomahn, after all.

I feel that creativity can make something more palatable, however it never makes deception or hatred acceptable.

subrosian

I don't think being a fakeboy has anything to do with hatred, except perhaps in inciting it. I'm sure it starts out attempting to bring a little "fun" to SW. Die-hard fanboys are much more likely to "hate", imo. Either way, I agree. Creativity may allow one to stomach such antics, but it is not what I seek when I type http://www.gamespot.com/ into my address bar.

The only comparison to Magic I'd try is comparing system wars to a huge multiplayer game of magic. We're not really worried about winning or losing, so much as seeing what happens when you get dozens of people together doing all kinds of crazy things, and see how those interactions play out. subrosian

I played the most in the terribly glitchy M:tG PC game and Culdcept (which I consider to have the same feel as magic, with a gameboard).

Now I know what a fakeboy is......

that was an excellent post well done. :)

i gotta say, this thread would also help newbie posters to get an idea of what to expecat on here. They can now regognise the difference between a fanboy and fakeboy, as well as the differences between genuine ownage and annoying /thread kind of stuff.

great post.

"I've been called a shotgun noob, chainsaw, grenade and boomshot noob. I've been called a hammer of dawn noob, as well as a hammerburst noob and pistol noob (?). A sniper noob, a hiding noob, and a rushing noob is always funny. Finally, my favorite "your lancer is too powerful as host, you lancer noob".
So I guess to make everyone happy, I should stand in the middle of the map and not move, or else I might be called a dodging noob." -Anonymous GOW player

funnies thing ive ever heard. :lol:

Wow. Long post, but great read. I never knew much about D&D, but you explained it well, and it fit your analogy quite well. Superb post!SpruceCaboose

Wow!:o That really provoked my thoughts.Very interesting read,and a well-written post.Now I know names to a lot of the stuff I see in System Wars.>_>

brilliant post, and a very enjoyable read :)

also, I agree that Plato and Socrates were expert "trappers"

brilliant post, and a very enjoyable read :)

also, I agree that Plato and Socrates were expert "trappers"

fuzzysquash

Interesting analogy, much kudos to you for sharing it.

In the case of fanboys/mobbing/personal attacks, I personally attribute the mentality to a fundamental instinctive behaviour. In a nutshell, humans were originally tribal creatures, and though it isn't as apparent today, you can still see a LOT of it around if you're willing to draw the parallels. We get instinctive satisfaction from achieving a higher 'rank' in a social 'hierarchy', regardless of whether that hierarchy is clearcut or subconscious.

Insulting/attacking another person makes one feel superior and gives satisfaction, as you're artificially placing yourself above that person in the hierarchy. You see a lot of the hierarchy mentality in schoolyards with bullies and clubs/cliques/'popular' groups etc. As an example, don't you feel good about yourself for being 'better' than people like the posters who go down in legend with comments like "Who/what the hell are the Zerg?". Not levelling that last bit as a criticism at anyone, it's just natural.

Fanboyism is a bit of an extreme case of this, as a person tries to take themself to a much higher 'rank' by completely denying the opinions and beliefs of anybody who feels differently about gaming/consoles/companies. It can often backfire though, as some fanboys get pretty agitated when others effectively debunk their one-sided arguments, making their rank seem less 'secure' and killing the satisfaction they try and achieve.

This also plays a part in fakeboyism/trolling, as by making others over-react, you feel good by playing with people's opinions and emotions, it gives a sense of superiority that you can make people act in a certain way by using yourself as flamebait. It's a form of manipulation, and it makes one feel more intelligent by 'outwitting' others.

I must admit my beliefs don't really fit in with the meta-gaming argument from what I can see, but I just thought I might try and contribute a tidbit to an interesting, original thread.

Oh, and for playing in character, you must be getting a decent EXP boost, you lucky sod. You're gonna out-level me at this rate :(

I like how you made the term "fanboy" seem so negative. Back in the 80's fanboys were a good thing. Ford fanboy, Chevy fanboy, Levis fanboy, Converse fanboy, you were proud to be called a fanboy back then. Now, It's like you're a digusting indiviual for strongly supporting a brand. I guess times are changing...IbukiNinja