The most overrated video game characters ever....

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N7v1K0

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#202 N7v1K0
Member since 2009 • 5755 Posts

[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"][QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]Kratos by far. He's a whining, screaming crybaby that throws bloody tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He appeals to every red-blooded, testosterone-pumped 13-year-old, and also David Jaffe, who has that mindset.psn8214

I'm sure that you know the mindset of someone who you have never met in your life. I love Kratos' character, honestly :P. He's brutal and angry without being stupid or meatheaded. Sometimes its good to be horrible. On the note of overrated characters, Gordon Freeman takes it away. There's not actually anything interesting about that character. Anyone who says he's one of the staples of the industry are probably just projecting their love of Half-Life, not their love of that character in particular.

That's because Gordon Freeman isn't a "traditional" character. :P Obviously, if you make him one, he is going to seem flat compared to, well, everything. He is meant purely as an avatar through which the players themselves view the story firsthand.

Gordon Freeman would fit the "ingame avatar" if HL was an RPG. I can't understand how people "view the story firsthand" like this or imagine Freeman as being themselves in the actual game

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#203 Kyozumi
Member since 2010 • 232 Posts

Dante from the DMC series.

He thinks he is cool but talks and acts like a retard.

SteelBallsBill

I dont see why's Dante a retard . Compared to a EMO like cloud , Dante faces danger with style and he is not even afraid /perturbed by the obstacles that are presented before him . MAybe you think he talks like a retard but seriouslly that just because he tends to be sacarstic and his personality in DMC 3 and 4 is more chatty . Compared to DMC 1 and 2 , I liked Dante more in DMC 3 and 4 just because of the fact He is very chatty and cocky when fighting his foes .Can Cloud Taunt and make fun of his enemies before hacking them to pieces ? NO .

Kratos against big monster : DAMN YOU I AM SOO GONNA FKING KILL YOU (Pounces). Ok , Kratos is badass but definitely not stylish >_< .. He simply hacks everything down that stands before his way . At least Dante will joke about , act cocky and probably bow to show sacarsm and talks some amazing dialogue after he defeats the bosses in the game .

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KiZZo1

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#204 KiZZo1
Member since 2007 • 3989 Posts

Yeah, Kratos - I agree. He should have been made less psychopatic. Someone seeking redemption must have grown a bit of conscience.

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texasgoldrush

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#205 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It doesn't amount to much of anything. There's no discourse on nihilism. Saying that life is meaningless may align him with nihilism, but no more than the out of nowhere Necron at the end of FFIX or other shallow villains.

Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it.

Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding.

AdobeArtist

Kefka does not have to preach nihilism throught the game, he doesn't need to. Thats how good the direction is. Many characters have their moments when they find no meaning in their life and they either find it, or someone else helps them find it. It would actually detract from Kefka if he preached nihilism throught the game. He represents it through his actions and the other protagonists confront moments of losing meaning in their lives from the results of his actions. Its only when they wrap things up the party debates him on his views and plans.

"Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it."

Wrong...depth is important, but so is using it. The thing about Kefka is that he is deep enough for the story to work. He didn't need a huge backstory.

"Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding"

You really should watch No Country For Old Men....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

If thats not random and senseless than what is. He basically kills a random parson fo rhis car. The guy even makes people flip coins for their lives. In the movie, the cops even talk about how senesless these killings are. Then thier is the ending....

And Kefka does connect to something "serious" like the overall theme of the game, finding meaning in life. Its perfectly clear.

I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here. While the encounter was random, the act itself was not. As you stated yourself, he did it to attain the car he needed at the time. It would certainly be disagreeable to us, but to the hitman any course of action is justified to gain his ends (getting the car or what not...) and that's all the reason he needs. Basically if the two had crossed paths but the hitman needed nothing from the stranger, chances are he wouldn't just randomly kill him like he suddenly thought to himself, "hmmm, there's a person, I think I'll just kill him just for the hell of it".

And of course the cops are calling the killings senseless, they don't understand the reasons behind the acts. Very often, sense and senseless is a matter of persepctive. Again, this is not to say anyobody's self reasoning can justify a violent act by concensus of society, but it does justify it to them, and that's all they need.

In more general terms, every killer's actions has some reasoning behind it, just that we don't always see it, as its often internalized based on that killer's perspective. There can be any number of justifications such as the victim was a threat to himself, whether real, as in there was an ongoing rivalry over territory, possession, money, position in an organization, or even the affection of a woman, or that threat might have been self percieved, one imagined by the killer but in his mind as real as if the victim had actually declared hostilities toward him.

Again these self justifications won't hold weight by societies standards but to the individual that doesn't matter. What ever threatens his saftey or goals, real or imagined will to himself jutify any means necessary to prevent that. He may be aware he breaking laws, but his personal interests override that, and enables him to carry out what ever actions deemed necessary.

Simply put, it may seem random and senseless to us,in his own mind there was a reason. It wasn't random to him.

I do agree for the most part with you...however there is an element of randomness to the character of Anton Chigurh.

These acts are random and senseless, to everybody but him, but the acts themsleves are really portrayed as random and senseless in the movie. That was really the point of his character of No Country For Old Men. The Sheriff (played by Tommy Lee Jones) struggles to understand this kind of violence. The rancher, played by Josh Brolin, fails to comprehend the type of man he is as well. But in this case, Anton's kills were both targeted and random, as chance is part of this killers persona. In one scene, for no logical reason at all, he forces a gas station owner to play a coin toss for his life in which he wins. He loves the idea of fate and chance, thats part of his craziness. In one scene he kills someone because he needs his car (and another person as well for his truck), but in another, he spares someone witnessing one of his murders, which is illogical for a killer to do. So their is some randomness to thi character.

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texasgoldrush

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#206 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts
[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

1. Sephiroth

He lacks a motive, a huge plot hole in FFVII.

Sometimes good villians don't need a 'motive'. The Dark Knight's Joker for example....

Why does he want to become a godand devestate the world?

But what's this? Didn't you just mention a motive?

Your criticisms are not exactly consistent.

The Dark Knight Joker DID have a motive, he wanted to see "man for what the were" and eat each other, Thats why he played all those games with them. And once again, thats a plan, not a motive.
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deactivated-598fc45371265

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#207 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

1. Sephiroth

He lacks a motive, a huge plot hole in FFVII.

Sometimes good villians don't need a 'motive'. The Dark Knight's Joker for example....

Why does he want to become a godand devestate the world?

But what's this? Didn't you just mention a motive?

texasgoldrush

Your criticisms are not exactly consistent.

The Dark Knight Joker DID have a motive, he wanted to see "man for what the were" and eat each other, Thats why he played all those games with them. And once again, thats a plan, not a motive.

And Sephiroth wanted to become a god. I'd say power is a pretty good motive in itself. And then of coursein addition he wanted revenge on Shinra...

So revenge and power. How many motives does the poor guy need?

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bobcheeseball

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#208 bobcheeseball
Member since 2007 • 9315 Posts

Silent videogame characters I don't mind because they don't annoy me beyond belief like Sonic the Hedgehog and his annoyingly high pitched fox sidekick.

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Banjo_Kongfooie

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#209 Banjo_Kongfooie
Member since 2007 • 3838 Posts
Kratos by far. He's a whining, screaming crybaby that throws bloody tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He appeals to every red-blooded, testosterone-pumped 13-year-old, and also David Jaffe, who has that mindset.princeofshapeir
Lol wouldn't he be more like a guy who needs anger management I mean I do not think I have seen him whine unless he had a sobfest in GOW3 ( I do not own a Ps3) Oh and also that is kind of stereotyping that he appeals to "every red-blooded, testosterone-pumped 13-year-old" , and how does David Jaffe have that mindset lol? Mastercheif being overrated is a joke... Most people use hyperbole when talking about him like Chuck Norris lol I would have to say that most overrated characters are definately Sonic, Mario, Sephiroth, Cloud, Link and I am sure I could think of more contenders. The most overrated I feel is Mario considering he is like the icon for gaming >_> and has multiple sports titles etc.
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#210 klusps
Member since 2005 • 10386 Posts

Probably agree with all of those. MC and Gorden Freeman are not really characters, they're suppose to be you.

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Chiddaling

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#211 Chiddaling
Member since 2008 • 9106 Posts
Most of today's characters.
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texasgoldrush

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#212 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts
[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Your criticisms are not exactly consistent.

The Dark Knight Joker DID have a motive, he wanted to see "man for what the were" and eat each other, Thats why he played all those games with them. And once again, thats a plan, not a motive.

And Sephiroth wanted to become a god. I'd say power is a pretty good motive in itself. And then of coursein addition he wanted revenge on Shinra...

So revenge and power. How many motives does the poor guy need?

If it is a motive in itself, its a very shallow motive. Every villain wants power in some form or another. Usually in a villians drive to power, there is a reason why he wants power. But, it is never stated or heavily implied what his motives ever were. Wanting revenge on Shinra is not a good motive for destroying the planet and becoming a god....attacking Shinra perhaps, but not a motive for annihilation and divination. Then there is the role of Jenova, which makes things more ambigious in the wrong place.
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xBluezx

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#213 xBluezx
Member since 2007 • 150 Posts

TC, I can argue with you on 3 2 and 1, but I wont.

My top 5 overrated video game characters:

5. All the final fantasy characters past the first game

4. Nintendo's characters (Even though I love them)

3. All the sonic characters aside from Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Robotnik, and Metal Sonic.

2. Kratos

1. Master Chief

Zanoh

I'd disagree with #5. Final Fantasy Tactics had a great set of characters, yet they rarely ever fell into the spot light. I'd qualify them as more underrated than anything.

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#214 xBluezx
Member since 2007 • 150 Posts

[QUOTE="SteelBallsBill"]

Dante from the DMC series.

He thinks he is cool but talks and acts like a retard.

Kyozumi

I dont see why's Dante a retard . Compared to a EMO like cloud , Dante faces danger with style and he is not even afraid /perturbed by the obstacles that are presented before him . MAybe you think he talks like a retard but seriouslly that just because he tends to be sacarstic and his personality in DMC 3 and 4 is more chatty . Compared to DMC 1 and 2 , I liked Dante more in DMC 3 and 4 just because of the fact He is very chatty and cocky when fighting his foes .Can Cloud Taunt and make fun of his enemies before hacking them to pieces ? NO .

Kratos against big monster : DAMN YOU I AM SOO GONNA FKING KILL YOU (Pounces). Ok , Kratos is badass but definitely not stylish >_< .. He simply hacks everything down that stands before his way . At least Dante will joke about , act cocky and probably bow to show sacarsm and talks some amazing dialogue after he defeats the bosses in the game .

Cloud can hardly be considered emo. Maybe mass-media helps in extentuating a feeling of that, but anyone that truly played the game would consider him more self-centered and cocky. In addition, he was taking on a different persona from himself, and once memories regained he did realize that alongside the girl he loved, his best friend was also dead. In Advent Children he was a bit more somber and dark, but traits associated with emo usually are sort of self-angst, faithless, and habits of self-injury. I'm prettttyyyy sure Cloud spent the whole movie trying to solve his problems by finding a cure. Proper research before trying to argue please :D

And for Dante, I wouldn't say he is a retard but definitely corny with little to no style. Hate to reference Marvel here, but him trying to be sarcastic and witty in combat is just trying to rip off of Spiderman and Deadpool. He fails at it, too. Nathan Drake was definitely more humorous and it was still bad listening to some of the jokes he pulled in the game.

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The_RedLion

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#215 The_RedLion
Member since 2009 • 1942 Posts
I'd say Kratos and Freeman.
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xBluezx

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#216 xBluezx
Member since 2007 • 150 Posts

Oh, and to answer the thread: Yeah - Gordon is definitely the most overrated. No idea how you can win best character win there is little to no character in him besides following orders... At least people like Link showed facial expressions and stuff like that, haha.

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hakanakumono

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#217 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It doesn't amount to much of anything. There's no discourse on nihilism. Saying that life is meaningless may align him with nihilism, but no more than the out of nowhere Necron at the end of FFIX or other shallow villains.

Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it.

Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding.

texasgoldrush

Kefka does not have to preach nihilism throught the game, he doesn't need to. Thats how good the direction is. Many characters have their moments when they find no meaning in their life and they either find it, or someone else helps them find it. It would actually detract from Kefka if he preached nihilism throught the game. He represents it through his actions and the other protagonists confront moments of losing meaning in their lives from the results of his actions. Its only when they wrap things up the party debates him on his views and plans.

"Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it."

Wrong...depth is important, but so is using it. The thing about Kefka is that he is deep enough for the story to work. He didn't need a huge backstory.

"Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding"

You really should watch No Country For Old Men....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

If thats not random and senseless than what is. He basically kills a random parson fo rhis car. The guy even makes people flip coins for their lives. In the movie, the cops even talk about how senesless these killings are. Then thier is the ending....

And Kefka does connect to something "serious" like the overall theme of the game, finding meaning in life. Its perfectly clear.

Kefka is a shallow villain and the plot is two dimensional because of the lack of depth in any area. No amount of direction can save a story that isn't there.

That's not a literary theme that's a subject matter. Having subject matter doesn't substitute for actual depth.

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The_RedLion

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#218 The_RedLion
Member since 2009 • 1942 Posts
Oh yeah, Sephiroth. He has to be the most overracted villian ever.
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texasgoldrush

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#219 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It doesn't amount to much of anything. There's no discourse on nihilism. Saying that life is meaningless may align him with nihilism, but no more than the out of nowhere Necron at the end of FFIX or other shallow villains.

Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it.

Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding.

hakanakumono

Kefka does not have to preach nihilism throught the game, he doesn't need to. Thats how good the direction is. Many characters have their moments when they find no meaning in their life and they either find it, or someone else helps them find it. It would actually detract from Kefka if he preached nihilism throught the game. He represents it through his actions and the other protagonists confront moments of losing meaning in their lives from the results of his actions. Its only when they wrap things up the party debates him on his views and plans.

"Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it."

Wrong...depth is important, but so is using it. The thing about Kefka is that he is deep enough for the story to work. He didn't need a huge backstory.

"Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding"

You really should watch No Country For Old Men....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

If thats not random and senseless than what is. He basically kills a random parson fo rhis car. The guy even makes people flip coins for their lives. In the movie, the cops even talk about how senesless these killings are. Then thier is the ending....

And Kefka does connect to something "serious" like the overall theme of the game, finding meaning in life. Its perfectly clear.

Kefka is a shallow villain and the plot is two dimensional because of the lack of depth in any area. No amount of direction can save a story that isn't there.

That's not a literary theme that's a subject matter. Having subject matter doesn't substitute for actual depth.

I guess you did not pay any attention to FFVI, because clearly, the theme I stated above IS THE MAIN THEME OF THE GAME. The entire World of Ruin revolves around that theme, from the character cast's quests to some of the townsfolk trying to rebuild their lives, and so are the entire story threads of Terra and Celes, finding what it meant to be human and finding meaning in their lives, which is love. Kefka easily fits in with this main theme has he seeks to destroy everything people hold dear in their lives. It is in the area of theme that FFVI is deep.

This brilliant outro to the PS Port of FFVI puts its main theme into focus in the form of Kefka's question at the very end. The very last scene is the answer, at least for Celes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

I have seen more shallow and simple stories win acclaim and deep and complex stories collapse on their own wieght. Why? Direction. If your story lacks direction, it falls apart, regardless of depth. Actually, depth is only part of a stories direction, Depth provides the characters and the world the things it needs to have a story, but it cannot tell the story. You have to know how to use the depth you have in an effective and coherent manner. And the amount of depth you need in the story varies from story to story. Some need to be deeper than others. The Deus Ex series has to be deeper than Shadow of The Colossus, but in the end, both are effective stories and won acclaim.

FACT: A deeper story is not always better than a less deep one, but a better directed story is always better than a less well directed one. It gets subjective when judging direction, but it is still the master variable.

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CZVA

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#220 CZVA
Member since 2009 • 1166 Posts

Mario. Hes a freaking plumber with a mustache. You cant get more overrated than that.

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texasgoldrush

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#221 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts

Probably agree with all of those. MC and Gorden Freeman are not really characters, they're suppose to be you.

klusps
The problem with Freeman is that on paper, he would be an interesting character.... Not a very good silent protagonist.
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deactivated-598fc45371265

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#223 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

And Sephiroth wanted to become a god. I'd say power is a pretty good motive in itself. And then of coursein addition he wanted revenge on Shinra...

So revenge and power. How many motives does the poor guy need?

Storm_Marine

If it is a motive in itself, its a very shallow motive. Every villain wants power in some form or another. Usually in a villians drive to power, there is a reason why he wants power. But, it is never stated or heavily implied what his motives ever were. Wanting revenge on Shinra is not a good motive for destroying the planet and becoming a god....attacking Shinra perhaps, but not a motive for annihilation and divination. Then there is the role of Jenova, which makes things more ambigious in the wrong place.

Power for power's sake sounds viable to me. And destroying the planet is a side effect of his plan for obtaining power. It's not like he summoned Meteor just for the sake of summoning Meteor and killing people.

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hakanakumono

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#224 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

Kefka does not have to preach nihilism throught the game, he doesn't need to. Thats how good the direction is. Many characters have their moments when they find no meaning in their life and they either find it, or someone else helps them find it. It would actually detract from Kefka if he preached nihilism throught the game. He represents it through his actions and the other protagonists confront moments of losing meaning in their lives from the results of his actions. Its only when they wrap things up the party debates him on his views and plans.

"Depth is the larger picture. Without depth, there isn't much of a picture. The fact that you try to apply concepts like "nihilism" demonstrates at least a part of you understands that a shallow villain doesn't cut it."

Wrong...depth is important, but so is using it. The thing about Kefka is that he is deep enough for the story to work. He didn't need a huge backstory.

"Senselessness and randomness of violence? Violence can be senseless, but it's almost never random and it's certainly not "senseless" in the sense that there isn't a reason for it to occur. A while back you were talking about how Kefka was realistic because he was a ****c "psychopath" in the sense that he has no reason for doing what he does, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter. Weak attempts to try to connect Kefka, a silly over the top villain, to anything "serious" aren't going to get you far, especially when the basis of your arguments demonstrates a limited understanding"

You really should watch No Country For Old Men....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

If thats not random and senseless than what is. He basically kills a random parson fo rhis car. The guy even makes people flip coins for their lives. In the movie, the cops even talk about how senesless these killings are. Then thier is the ending....

And Kefka does connect to something "serious" like the overall theme of the game, finding meaning in life. Its perfectly clear.

texasgoldrush

Kefka is a shallow villain and the plot is two dimensional because of the lack of depth in any area. No amount of direction can save a story that isn't there.

That's not a literary theme that's a subject matter. Having subject matter doesn't substitute for actual depth.

I guess you did not pay any attention to FFVI, because clearly, the theme I stated above IS THE MAIN THEME OF THE GAME. The entire World of Ruin revolves around that theme, from the character cast's quests to some of the townsfolk trying to rebuild their lives, and so are the entire story threads of Terra and Celes, finding what it meant to be human and finding meaning in their lives, which is love. Kefka easily fits in with this main theme has he seeks to destroy everything people hold dear in their lives. It is in the area of theme that FFVI is deep.

This brilliant outro to the PS Port of FFVI puts its main theme into focus in the form of Kefka's question at the very end. The very last scene is the answer, at least for Celes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

I have seen more shallow and simple stories win acclaim and deep and complex stories collapse on their own wieght. Why? Direction. If your story lacks direction, it falls apart, regardless of depth. Actually, depth is only part of a stories direction, Depth provides the characters and the world the things it needs to have a story, but it cannot tell the story. You have to know how to use the depth you have in an effective and coherent manner. And the amount of depth you need in the story varies from story to story. Some need to be deeper than others. The Deus Ex series has to be deeper than Shadow of The Colossus, but in the end, both are effective stories and won acclaim.

FACT: A deeper story is not always better than a less deep one, but a better directed story is always better than a less well directed one. It gets subjective when judging direction, but it is still the master variable.

A theme is a message. It has to be a statement or a sentence. Otherwise it's just subject matter. The theme in FFVI, if there was one, might be "There is meaning to life." It's not particularly thoughtful or special. It's not thought out. It's not explored. Regardless of the fact that FFVI ties its cast of cardboard cutout heroes to this theme, it doesn't account for anything particularly special.

Depth is substance. Without depth, there is little substance. There is not enough depth in Final Fantasy VI to submerse yourself in; seeing someone revel in FFVI is like watching a grown man in a kiddie pool. There is no literary merit.

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#225 The_RedLion
Member since 2009 • 1942 Posts
FFVI > FFVII. We all know that.
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#226 AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts

FFVI > FFVII. We all know that.The_RedLion

Mass Effect 1 & 2 >>>>> FFVI & FFVII. We all know that.

Sorry, I... I just couldn't resist :P :oops: :P :oops:

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#227 AfterBurnerZ
Member since 2010 • 1304 Posts

I don't really find any characters or overrated, and I certainly don't "hate" them. :?

I can't believe some people are listing Mario as a bad character. How is that even possible? Would his character be better if he broke out into random soliloquys? If a character fits in the game world how they should, that's all I ask for.

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#228 AfterBurnerZ
Member since 2010 • 1304 Posts

[QUOTE="The_RedLion"]FFVI > FFVII. We all know that.AdobeArtist

Mass Effect 1 & 2 >>>>> FFVI & FFVII. We all know that.

Sorry, I... I just couldn't resist :P :oops: :P :oops:

Funny joke, tell another.

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#229 sleepingzzz
Member since 2006 • 2263 Posts

[QUOTE="The_RedLion"]FFVI > FFVII. We all know that.AdobeArtist

Mass Effect 1 & 2 >>>>> FFVI & FFVII. We all know that.

Sorry, I... I just couldn't resist :P :oops: :P :oops:

I would say this is true since you combined FFVI with FFVII. FFVII just adds a infinite negative number to the combo. Now take it out and replace it with FFIV and we now have:

FFIV & FFVI >>>>>>> ME 1 & 2 (I would say ME1 brings down this combo)

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#230 bad_fur_day
Member since 2008 • 1988 Posts

I'd say Mario. There just isn't anything good about a fat plumber, infact he probably works so well because he is so uncool it makes him cool again. The only reason he's liked so much is because his games are allways good.

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#231 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Kefka is a shallow villain and the plot is two dimensional because of the lack of depth in any area. No amount of direction can save a story that isn't there.

That's not a literary theme that's a subject matter. Having subject matter doesn't substitute for actual depth.

hakanakumono

I guess you did not pay any attention to FFVI, because clearly, the theme I stated above IS THE MAIN THEME OF THE GAME. The entire World of Ruin revolves around that theme, from the character cast's quests to some of the townsfolk trying to rebuild their lives, and so are the entire story threads of Terra and Celes, finding what it meant to be human and finding meaning in their lives, which is love. Kefka easily fits in with this main theme has he seeks to destroy everything people hold dear in their lives. It is in the area of theme that FFVI is deep.

This brilliant outro to the PS Port of FFVI puts its main theme into focus in the form of Kefka's question at the very end. The very last scene is the answer, at least for Celes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xyvOCNCXdU

I have seen more shallow and simple stories win acclaim and deep and complex stories collapse on their own wieght. Why? Direction. If your story lacks direction, it falls apart, regardless of depth. Actually, depth is only part of a stories direction, Depth provides the characters and the world the things it needs to have a story, but it cannot tell the story. You have to know how to use the depth you have in an effective and coherent manner. And the amount of depth you need in the story varies from story to story. Some need to be deeper than others. The Deus Ex series has to be deeper than Shadow of The Colossus, but in the end, both are effective stories and won acclaim.

FACT: A deeper story is not always better than a less deep one, but a better directed story is always better than a less well directed one. It gets subjective when judging direction, but it is still the master variable.

A theme is a message. It has to be a statement or a sentence. Otherwise it's just subject matter. The theme in FFVI, if there was one, might be "There is meaning to life." It's not particularly thoughtful or special. It's not thought out. It's not explored. Regardless of the fact that FFVI ties its cast of cardboard cutout heroes to this theme, it doesn't account for anything particularly special.

Depth is substance. Without depth, there is little substance. There is not enough depth in Final Fantasy VI to submerse yourself in; seeing someone revel in FFVI is like watching a grown man in a kiddie pool. There is no literary merit.

Lol...wow...you really think the main theme of FFVI is not explored. The whole second half, through the character quests EXPLORES THE THEME. Each character must find their meaning. I'll just let the game script speak

Kefka: Welcome, friends! I knew you'd come, so I've been practicing my greeting!
Party: How much do you have to destroy before you'll have had your fill, Kefka!?
Kefka: I've acquired the ultimate power! Observe...
Kefka: Such magnificent power! You're all nothing more than fleas compared to me now!
Kefka: Embrace your destruction... It is the fate of all things.
Party: To be destroyed? Maybe it is! But people can always rebuild, and new lives will always be born!
Kefka: And time will destroy all of those as well. Why do people insist on creating things that will inevitably be destroyed? Why do people cling to life, knowing that they must someday die? ...Knowing that none of it will have meant anything once they do?
Terra: Because it's not the end that matters! It's knowing that you have something to live for right now, at this moment! Something you've worked for... something that's worth protecting! As long as you have that...that's enough!
Kefka: And did you all find your "somethings" in this broken world that just won't die?
Party: Yes!
Terra: Love!
Locke: A person worth protecting.
Cyan: A life and child who live on within me.
Shadow: Friends...and family.
Edgar: A peaceful kingdom.
Sabin: A loving brother who always looks out for me! Gah-ha-ha-ha!
Celes: Someone willing to accept me for who I am.
Strago: An adorable little granddaughter.
Relm: An obnoxious grandpa...who I couldn't live without!
Setzer: Wings from a dear old friend!
Mog: New pals, kupo!
Kefka: Bleh! You people make me sick! You sound like lines from a self-help book!
Kefka: If that's how it's going to be... I'll snuff them all out! Every last one of your sickening, happy little reasons for living!
Party: No, Kefka, stop!

[Kefka uses the Light of Judgment across the world.]

Kefka: I wield the greatest power in existence! You may as well be the dirt on the bottom of my boots! Or the dirt stuck to the bottom of that dirt!
Party: You can't destroy everything! People will always have dreams!
Kefka: No! I'll destroy the entire world! There won't be anything left to dream about!
Party: We won't let you hurt any more people!
Kefka: Hee-hee-hee! But what fun is destruction if no "precious" lives are lost?
Party: It ends here, Kefka!

Notice how each character's response is something they dealt with in their personal stories throughout the game.

-------------------------- As for the character casts being cardboard cutouts, well I guess these cardboard cutouts are far superior to the supposely deeper characters later in the series brought down by average to poor direction. The only casts that come clsoe to rivaling FFVI's cast is FF Tactics and FFIX's. How could this be? Because the directors used the depth they had to maximum effect. Even Gau, the only non bonus character who I think is underdeveloped, is executed well.

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#232 rcignoni
Member since 2004 • 8863 Posts
I'd have to give it to Kratos.
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DarkLink77

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#233 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Then what is Sephiroth's motive? Why does he want to crash meteor into Gaia to take the life stream to be come a god? Never explained, never mentioned. He is then just another bad guy to put down. He is an incomplete villian. I should of added that his boss battle is the exact same as the boss battle against Kefka...the same angelic form, the same attacks, etc. But silly gamers think he is the top boss battle, even though its been done before.texasgoldrush
What's his motive? Um... did you even play the game? They explain it to you. I never said he was the best, but he's certainly not the worst either. I was taking more issue with you comment on Cloud.

Then why all the fan specualtion......such as Jenova's role. Motive is why he does it, not how he does it. How he does it is explained, why he does it isn't.

It is actually. You do know that most of the times you see him during the game, it isn't actually Sephiroth, right?

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texasgoldrush

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#234 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] What's his motive? Um... did you even play the game? They explain it to you. I never said he was the best, but he's certainly not the worst either. I was taking more issue with you comment on Cloud.DarkLink77
It is, actually. You do know that most of the time you see Sephiroth during the game, it isn't actually him, right? Then why all the fan specualtion......such as Jenova's role. Motive is why he does it, not how he does it. How he does it is explained, why he does it isn't.

And therefore, no real motive..........he is just like Gongora of Lost Odyssey...we now how he wants to kill his fellow immortals and control the world, but not exactly why. Therefore, he was a weak villain overall. Same thing with Sephiroth wanting to become a god. You can imply things, but there is no concrete reason why he is going through with his plan.
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hakanakumono

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#235 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

Texasgoldrush doesn't realize that celebrated works of fiction don't give you all of the answers and require you to think and discover things for yourself.

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#236 TheMightyHoov
Member since 2009 • 2459 Posts

[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

[QUOTE="The_RedLion"]FFVI > FFVII. We all know that.sleepingzzz

Mass Effect 1 & 2 >>>>> FFVI & FFVII. We all know that.

Sorry, I... I just couldn't resist :P :oops: :P :oops:

I would say this is true since you combined FFVI with FFVII. FFVII just adds a infinite negative number to the combo. Now take it out and replace it with FFIV and we now have:

FFIV & FFVI >>>>>>> ME 1 & 2 (I would say ME1 brings down this combo)

No one can win a subjective argument ;)

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texasgoldrush

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#237 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts

Texasgoldrush doesn't realize that celebrated works of fiction don't give you all of the answers and require you to think and discover things for yourself.

hakanakumono
There is a differenc ebetween intentional ambiguity and plot holes.
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DarkLink77

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#238 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] It is, actually. You do know that most of the time you see Sephiroth during the game, it isn't actually him, right? Then why all the fan specualtion......such as Jenova's role. Motive is why he does it, not how he does it. How he does it is explained, why he does it isn't.texasgoldrush

And therefore, no real motive..........he is just like Gongora of Lost Odyssey...we now how he wants to kill his fellow immortals and control the world, but not exactly why. Therefore, he was a weak villain overall. Same thing with Sephiroth wanting to become a god. You can imply things, but there is no concrete reason why he is going through with his plan.

Actually, there is. When he discovers that he was created from Jenova cells, he loses his mind. Like ShinRa, he believes that Jenova was a Cetra, which were more or less wiped out by normal humans. Sephiroth believes that Jenova was going to cleanse humans from the world, and create a paradise for the Cetra. Since he is Jenova's son, and due to the control of the Jenova cells in his body, which partially bind him to Jenova's will (coupled with his already shattered mind), he wants to help. Becoming a God, would allow him to go between planets a truly create his version of "paradise."
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hakanakumono

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#239 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

Texas, I'm not sure why you decided to post the cutscene. It's not an exploration. It should be noted that any exploration requires some degree of depth, by definition. Think of exploration as a cave. The deeper you go, the more that is explored. When there is no depth, there is no where to go and nothing to explore. FFVI's take on the "meaning" or "value" of life is too shallow for it to be anything notable.

Cardboard cutout characters, by definition, are nothing to be celebrated. There is no such thing as a poorly thought out character that is "executed well."

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#240 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Texasgoldrush doesn't realize that celebrated works of fiction don't give you all of the answers and require you to think and discover things for yourself.

texasgoldrush

There is a differenc ebetween intentional ambiguity and plot holes.

Good, you're learning.

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ActicEdge

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#241 ActicEdge
Member since 2008 • 24492 Posts

I don't really find any characters or overrated, and I certainly don't "hate" them. :?

I can't believe some people are listing Mario as a bad character. How is that even possible? Would his character be better if he broke out into random soliloquys? If a character fits in the game world how they should, that's all I ask for.

AfterBurnerZ

People don't get what a good character is. Super Mario games are not about plot. Its about running throw stupidly unrealistic but extremely fun levels. No one wants talking in those games. they just want a decent desiged character and fun. I agree, all a character needs to do to be good is fit in his or her role well.

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#242 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]DarkLink77
And therefore, no real motive..........he is just like Gongora of Lost Odyssey...we now how he wants to kill his fellow immortals and control the world, but not exactly why. Therefore, he was a weak villain overall. Same thing with Sephiroth wanting to become a god. You can imply things, but there is no concrete reason why he is going through with his plan.

Actually, there is. When he discovers that he was created from Jenova cells, he loses his mind. Like ShinRa, he believes that Jenova was a Cetra, which were more or less wiped out by normal humans. Sephiroth believes that Jenova was going to cleanse humans from the world, and create a paradise for the Cetra. Since he is Jenova's son, and due to the control of the Jenova cells in his body, which partially bind him to Jenova's will (coupled with his already shattered mind), he wants to help. Becoming a God, would allow him to go between planets a truly create his version of "paradise."

The discussion of sephiroth should end here.

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DarkLink77

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#243 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] And therefore, no real motive..........he is just like Gongora of Lost Odyssey...we now how he wants to kill his fellow immortals and control the world, but not exactly why. Therefore, he was a weak villain overall. Same thing with Sephiroth wanting to become a god. You can imply things, but there is no concrete reason why he is going through with his plan.hakanakumono

Actually, there is. When he discovers that he was created from Jenova cells, he loses his mind. Like ShinRa, he believes that Jenova was a Cetra, which were more or less wiped out by normal humans. Sephiroth believes that Jenova was going to cleanse humans from the world, and create a paradise for the Cetra. Since he is Jenova's son, and due to the control of the Jenova cells in his body, which partially bind him to Jenova's will (coupled with his already shattered mind), he wants to help. Becoming a God, would allow him to go between planets a truly create his version of "paradise."

The discussion of sephiroth should end here.

Is that good or bad? :?

That may not be totally correct, as I haven't played FFVII in a couple years, but I believe that is mostly correct.

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#244 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Actually, there is. When he discovers that he was created from Jenova cells, he loses his mind. Like ShinRa, he believes that Jenova was a Cetra, which were more or less wiped out by normal humans. Sephiroth believes that Jenova was going to cleanse humans from the world, and create a paradise for the Cetra. Since he is Jenova's son, and due to the control of the Jenova cells in his body, which partially bind him to Jenova's will (coupled with his already shattered mind), he wants to help. Becoming a God, would allow him to go between planets a truly create his version of "paradise."DarkLink77

The discussion of sephiroth should end here.

Is that good or bad? :?

That may not be totally correct, as I haven't played FFVII in a couple years, but I believe that is mostly correct.

It's a good interpretation. Take it as a good thing. Really, every discussion with texasgoldrush ends before it begins.

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texasgoldrush

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#245 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]DarkLink77
And therefore, no real motive..........he is just like Gongora of Lost Odyssey...we now how he wants to kill his fellow immortals and control the world, but not exactly why. Therefore, he was a weak villain overall. Same thing with Sephiroth wanting to become a god. You can imply things, but there is no concrete reason why he is going through with his plan.

Actually, there is. When he discovers that he was created from Jenova cells, he loses his mind. Like ShinRa, he believes that Jenova was a Cetra, which were more or less wiped out by normal humans. Sephiroth believes that Jenova was going to cleanse humans from the world, and create a paradise for the Cetra. Since he is Jenova's son, and due to the control of the Jenova cells in his body, which partially bind him to Jenova's will (coupled with his already shattered mind), he wants to help. Becoming a God, would allow him to go between planets a truly create his version of "paradise."

And here then lies the problem. I Sephiroth controlled by Jenova or is Jenova controlling him? And once again, you are infering, it is never stated in the game, only his plan at the Temple of the Ancients. The fact is fans debate what his motives really were.
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#246 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] And therefore, no real motive..........he is just like Gongora of Lost Odyssey...we now how he wants to kill his fellow immortals and control the world, but not exactly why. Therefore, he was a weak villain overall. Same thing with Sephiroth wanting to become a god. You can imply things, but there is no concrete reason why he is going through with his plan.texasgoldrush
Actually, there is. When he discovers that he was created from Jenova cells, he loses his mind. Like ShinRa, he believes that Jenova was a Cetra, which were more or less wiped out by normal humans. Sephiroth believes that Jenova was going to cleanse humans from the world, and create a paradise for the Cetra. Since he is Jenova's son, and due to the control of the Jenova cells in his body, which partially bind him to Jenova's will (coupled with his already shattered mind), he wants to help. Becoming a God, would allow him to go between planets a truly create his version of "paradise."

And here then lies the problem. I Sephiroth controlled by Jenova or is Jenova controlling him? And once again, you are infering, it is never stated in the game, only his plan at the Temple of the Ancients. The fact is fans debate what his motives really were.

Their relationship is a give and take.

Sephiroth controls Jenova physically, but due to his madness (and the Jenova cells) she dictates what he wants, because he wants to please her.

I'm not inferring. It is stated in FFVII, in FFVII: Crisis Core, and in Advent Children. Canon and factually.

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#247 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15246 Posts

Texas, I'm not sure why you decided to post the cutscene. It's not an exploration. It should be noted that any exploration requires some degree of depth, by definition. Think of exploration as a cave. The deeper you go, the more that is explored. When there is no depth, there is no where to go and nothing to explore. FFVI's take on the "meaning" or "value" of life is too shallow for it to be anything notable.

Cardboard cutout characters, by definition, are nothing to be celebrated. There is no such thing as a poorly thought out character that is "executed well."

hakanakumono

The scene itself isn't the exploration as much as the wrap up, but the entire World of Ruin section explores this theme. There is depth, it is there, And so the birth of Duane and Katarin's child isn't notable, or Lockes bandanna, or the airship Falcon....lol. All of these symbolize what was important to these characters. Then they explore dealing with loss and each characters loss has a different message , and so on.

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#248 Republican11
Member since 2008 • 1029 Posts

You guys do realize the reason you never see MC's face is to make the player feel more like it is actually "you" being a badass. Same with why Gordon Freeman never talks/never see his face in game.

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#249 IppoTenma
Member since 2009 • 2972 Posts

You guys do realize the reason you never see MC's face is to make the player feel more like it is actually "you" being a badass. Same with why Gordon Freeman never talks/never see his face in game.

Republican11
Exactly. Same with Link. People these days.
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#250 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Texas, I'm not sure why you decided to post the cutscene. It's not an exploration. It should be noted that any exploration requires some degree of depth, by definition. Think of exploration as a cave. The deeper you go, the more that is explored. When there is no depth, there is no where to go and nothing to explore. FFVI's take on the "meaning" or "value" of life is too shallow for it to be anything notable.

Cardboard cutout characters, by definition, are nothing to be celebrated. There is no such thing as a poorly thought out character that is "executed well."

texasgoldrush

The scene itself isn't the exploration as much as the wrap up, but the entire World of Ruin section explores this theme. There is depth, it is there, And so the birth of Duane and Katarin's child isn't notable, or Lockes bandanna, or the airship Falcon....lol. All of these symbolize what was important to these characters. Then they explore dealing with loss and each characters loss has a different message , and so on.

There is depth, especially for the time. But there is so little depth it hardly amounts to "an exploration."

What? No that's not symbolism, that's part of their backstory and the depth that is there.

Explain how "loss" is explored.