This is the REAL reason why the PS3 has mandatory installs on alot of games

In this thread we are going to discuss the REAL reason why alot of PS3 games have mandatory installs. I know this is a tired topic but its simply discussion for the sake of discussion, and alot of people alsoseem to be confused.

Some common false beliefs are that:

-The blu ray drive read speed is slow (irrelevant.)

-Developers need to install to make the game on par with 360 (technically you could say that, but not in the context most people are thinking. this is also false)

-They are doing it to make load times faster, to get an edge on 360 (also false)

The PS3 doesnt have mandatory installs because the read speed of blu ray is slower......it has mandatory installations because Sony forces developers to leave the game files uncompressed, including uncompressed audio and video (not fully uncompressed, just forced to use different compression codecs for audio and video, the same ones used in blu ray movies). The problem with this is, that Blu Ray movies tend to take up ALOT of space on a blu ray disk. This means that with this compression codec, games files tend to be very large. (this is why PS3 game files are always so massively large, and games like Killzone 3 were 42gb, others filling up blu ray discs, etc......Fallout 3 for instance was like 7 gigs on 360 and PC, yet it was around 30 on PS3).

The problem with THIS, however, is that Sony has a strict policy of a ONE DISC LIMIT for games on its platform. Meaning that if the developers game file is too big to fit on one disc, then they are required to zip up the file to make it fit, and then UNZIP it to your harddrive.

This is why so many games on PS3 require mandatory installations.

The mandatory installations have nothing to do with the disparity between the PS3 and 360. They are specifically because the game files are too big to fit on a blu ray disk using the compression codecs Sony forces developers to use, therefore they have to zip the file up, and install it on your harddrive. This is also why alot of multiplats are STILL inferior on the PS3 to the 360 versions even AFTER the mandatory install. This is because those differences are attributed mainly to the 360 having better ram and a better GPU. The installations were NEVER intended to change this. They were there so that they could get the game onto one disk without cutting content for the PS3 version.

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

I just wish it had optional installs. I hate playing games off the disk, it's loud and games load super slow.

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

lundy86_4

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

-CheeseEater-

So, the reason would be, that Sony has a one-disk policy, and thus the games must be installed as to stick to that rule?

It seems like TC just created an elaborate reason, with no evidence.

I lol'd

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

lundy86_4

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title with ALOT of audio and video). Its because Sony forces developers to use their compression codecs for audio and video, and is why game files always tend to be massively rediculous big ass files on PS3 (like fallout 3 or something being 30+ gigs on PS3, but like 6 or 7 on 360 and PC).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

StrongDeadlift

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title.).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

So, where's the proof?

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"]

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

lundy86_4

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title.).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

So, where's the proof?

-That Games on PS3 use uncompressed audio and video? This is common knowlege.

-That some developers use the hard drive to cache data instead of installing? This is also common knowlege.

-That PS3 game files are massive big ass files compared to their 360, PC, and Wii counterparts? Some even approaching 30+ gigs? also common knowlege.

Or are you asking for proof that Sony forces developers to use one disc? Well let me ask you, do ANY PS3 games use more than one disc? nope. Im sure you can use logic and reasoning to put two and two together....

*remembers what forum hes on*....on second thought....nevermind.

But the slow blu ray drive speed is true... :?MonsieurX

That reason made logical sense to me, but what do I know. I thought the install was there as a way for them to avoid repeating excess code all over the disk for fast loading times.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"] Some games do not have an installation because:

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title.).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

StrongDeadlift

So, where's the proof?

-That Games on PS3 use uncompressed audio and video? This is common knowlege.

-That some developers use the hard drive to cache data instead of installing? This is also common knowlege.

-That PS3 game files are massive big ass files compared to their 360, PC, and Wii counterparts? Some even approaching 30+ gigs? also common knowlege.

Or are you asking for proof that Sony forces developers to use one disc? Well let me ask you, do ANY PS3 games use more than one disc? nope. Im sure you can use logic and reasoning to put two and two together....

*remembers what forum hes on*....on second thought....nevermind.

Everything. Most of all, Sony's supposed one-disk policy.

Then, proof of everything you stated. If it was all common knowledge, why would you have to "educate" everybody on the reasons there are actually mandatory installs?

Evidence of absence is not a sound footing for your point.

[QUOTE="MonsieurX"]But the slow blu ray drive speed is true... :?verbtex

That reason made logical sense to me, but what do I know. I thought the install was there as a way for them to avoid repeating excess code all over the disk for fast loading times.

[QUOTE="verbtex"]

[QUOTE="MonsieurX"]But the slow blu ray drive speed is true... :?StrongDeadlift

That reason made logical sense to me, but what do I know. I thought the install was there as a way for them to avoid repeating excess code all over the disk for fast loading times.

Even if the blu ray drive is slower, doesn't it also read much bigger chunks of data than a dvd drive?

That actually makes ALOT of sense... the unzipping part. Well it makes sense why the games are so huge yet the PC counterparts are usually under 10gb. It still doesn't makes since WHY they use such an inefficient codec. Use x264 or something for video and OGG or FLAC for audio. For textures, PNG I guess. I mean c'mon, we've had these lossless formats for years now on PC. To take up 40gb of space is ridiculous.

I guess they're taking the same path as the original DVD format did. You could fill the whole 4.7gb disk to the brim with a 2 hour movie, yet rip an Xvid copy with equivalent quality @ only 700mb, small enough to fill a CD.

My guess is that the devs are using the excess of space as a crutch because forcing the system to decode compressed files will result in unacceptable performance? They obviously don't mind the increase of bandwidth as opposed to an increase in CPU utilization. It's like running a 1080p uncompressed movie vs. a highly compressed x264 1080p movie. The uncompressed footage will be handicapped by the hard drive's bandwidth while the x264 footage will heavily utilized the CPU instead.

I won't linger on too long about this... Whatever reason they chose to use uncompressed files, I'm sure it was for a good reason, but you'd think that today's CPU architectures would have erradicated any practical advantages of uncompressed files vs. lossless compressed files. Even audiophiles know better than to use the WAV format. They use FLAC.

Does all this change the fact that there are still installs???

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"] Some games do not have an installation because:

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title.).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

StrongDeadlift

So, where's the proof?

-That Games on PS3 use uncompressed audio and video? This is common knowlege.

-That some developers use the hard drive to cache data instead of installing? This is also common knowlege.

-That PS3 game files are massive big ass files compared to their 360, PC, and Wii counterparts? Some even approaching 30+ gigs? also common knowlege.

Or are you asking for proof that Sony forces developers to use one disc? Well let me ask you, do ANY PS3 games use more than one disc? nope. Im sure you can use logic and reasoning to put two and two together....

*remembers what forum hes on*....on second thought....nevermind.

Common "knowledge" is sometimes false. This one would be. FFXIII was not uncompressed, although it was frequently mistranslated as being so. When developers want to fit a game on a disc, they'll compress it.

The reason why PS3 games don't have multiple discs is twofold:

1. It costs developers more money to release games with multiple discs. In licensing fees.

2. They can compress it so they don't have to and there's plenty of room on blurays.

Even if the blu ray drive is slower, doesn't it also read much bigger chunks of data than a dvd drive?

jun_aka_pekto

Does all this change the fact that there are still installs???

xsatyr86

Disc based content always has loading times. It had it on the PS1. It had it on the PS2. There is an incentive to install data to prevent load times on any disc based system. I have FF Type-0 installed right now for this reason. When you "install" a game to your PS3 you're not installing the full game. You're just installing part of it so that it can load those parts easily and quickly. This is just going to be common data, nothing like a secretly compressed portion of the full game. That's absurd.

PS2 had installs for the RE Outbreak series.

[QUOTE="xsatyr86"]

Does all this change the fact that there are still installs???

StrongDeadlift

I like this thread, it is lol worthy. You're just making baseless claims as if it is common knowledge.

Ok? Whether true or not, who cares?

PS3 BD Drive not slow?!?! Try load a BD movie into a PS3 and then try load the same BD movie into your BD player, the loading difference is pretty big

Ok? Whether true or not, who cares?

mysticstryk

Everything. Most of all, Sony's supposed one-disk policy.

Then, proof of everything you stated. If it was all common knowledge, why would you have to "educate" everybody on the reasons there are actually mandatory installs?

Evidence of absence is not a sound footing for your point.

lundy86_4

TC, i'm still waiting.

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

StrongDeadlift

Uncharted and God Of War does not need 2GB of cache. and no, they don't install. why do i know? i played UC1, UC2, UC3, and GOW3 with less than 500MB of hard drive space.

Uncharted usses 250 MB of hard drive space for Multiplayer cache. presumably for the cinema mode and network usage. other than that, you are totally misinforming people.

also, proof? you said it's the REAL reason, yet you provide any evidence. until you bring out solid, concrete, and tangible evidence, your words are merely suggestion and opinion.

If you don't think 2x speed is slow, then lol wut.

TC, to clarify for my peers....they are wanting reputable 3rd party links to verify the facts. If the disc maximum is one then there must be a link on some gamesite. If there is none, we can only assume conjecture whether it seems reasonable or not.

Surely if the file is uncompressed this would mean that the CPU has less work to do as it does not need to uncompress the file, freeing that CPU cycle for something else. If this is the case then why are we still seeing performance issues on Multiplat games?

How are games not fitting on a 25GB-50GB blu ray disc? :\ There are plenty of one disc games on the 360 and thats just a 7gb disc.

Most multiplatform games are under 10 GB on the PS3. But you could be right, since the full install of skyrim on the X360 is only 3.8GB, and the mandatory install on the PS3 is 5.5GB. They are definately using different compression techniques for each console.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"] Some games do not have an installation because:

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title.).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

StrongDeadlift

So, where's the proof?

-That Games on PS3 use uncompressed audio and video? This is common knowlege.

-That some developers use the hard drive to cache data instead of installing? This is also common knowlege.

Based from the posts above, the PS3's blu ray drive does read much bigger chunks of data than a 360's dvd drive at equivalent speeds. But, the 360 dvd drive loads more smaller chunks while the PS3 blu ray drive loads lesser bigger chunks over a given period of time. That makes the 360 dvd drive quicker overall. Okay. It's clearer now.

The problem is that the bluray drive is slow because the PS3 began using the technology before the drive speeds were good. Its not really that big a question.

In this thread we are going to discuss the REAL reason why alot of PS3 games have mandatory installs. I know this is a tired topic but its simply discussion for the sake of discussion, and alot of people alsoseem to be confused.

Some common false beliefs are that:

-The blu ray drive read speed is slow (irrelevant.)

-Developers need to install to make the game on par with 360 (technically you could say that, but not in the context most people are thinking. this is also false)

-They are doing it to make load times faster, to get an edge on 360 (also false)

The PS3 doesnt have mandatory installs because the read speed of blu ray is slower......it has mandatory installations because Sony forces developers to leave the game files uncompressed, including uncompressed audio and video (not fully uncompressed, just forced to use different compression codecs for audio and video, the same ones used in blu ray movies). The problem with this is, that Blu Ray movies tend to take up ALOT of space on a blu ray disk. This means that with this compression codec, games files tend to be very large. (this is why PS3 game files are always so massively large, and games like Killzone 3 were 42gb, others filling up blu ray discs, etc......Fallout 3 for instance was like 7 gigs on 360 and PC, yet it was around 30 on PS3).

The problem with THIS, however, is that Sony has a strict policy of a ONE DISC LIMIT for games on its platform. Meaning that if the developers game file is too big to fit on one disc, then they are required to zip up the file to make it fit, and then UNZIP it to your harddrive.

This is why so many games on PS3 require mandatory installations.

The mandatory installations have nothing to do with the disparity between the PS3 and 360. They are specifically because the game files are too big to fit on a blu ray disk using the compression codecs Sony forces developers to use, therefore they have to zip the file up, and install it on your harddrive. This is also why alot of multiplats are STILL inferior on the PS3 to the 360 versions even AFTER the mandatory install. This is because those differences are attributed mainly to the 360 having better ram and a better GPU. The installations were NEVER intended to change this. They were there so that they could get the game onto one disk without cutting content for the PS3 version.

StrongDeadlift

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

lundy86_4

If Sony forces developers to do this, why do some games not have an installation?

Also... Proof?

lundy86_4

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"] Some games do not have an installation because:

1. Not all game files are too big to fit on one blu ray disc. The only reason an installation is needed is ONLY if the game file is to big to fit on ONE dual layered disc. if it does fit, then it is fine. This usually effects content heavy games like MGS4, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, etc. especially open world games, or WRPGs,etc. (or pretty much any big budget high profile title.).

2. Keep in mind that Some developers (particularly Sony first party devs) have found ways around needing an installation by using the harddrive to cache data instead of doing an outright installation. Games like Uncharted, Killzone, and GoW (among other Sony first party exclusives, and prolly 3rd parties too by now) simply create a 2 gig or so cache on your harddrive, and cache data from it rather than forcing the gamer to sit through a lengthy outright installation.

StrongDeadlift

So, where's the proof?

-That Games on PS3 use uncompressed audio and video? This is common knowlege.

-That some developers use the hard drive to cache data instead of installing? This is also common knowlege.

-That PS3 game files are massive big ass files compared to their 360, PC, and Wii counterparts? Some even approaching 30+ gigs? also common knowlege.

Or are you asking for proof that Sony forces developers to use one disc? Well let me ask you, do ANY PS3 games use more than one disc? nope. Im sure you can use logic and reasoning to put two and two together....

*remembers what forum hes on*....on second thought....nevermind.

Pseh. No links to 3rd party sources to provide evidence or citation?

The PS3 has built-in support for compressed audio (eg MP3)and video (eg DivX), since you can play both types of files from the Crossbar media player (either from an external storage such as a flash drive, or copied to the PS3's hard drive). Why would developers not make use of them as well? (also, I use uploaded MP3 audio as substitute game soundtrack if the game supports it, eg Gran Turismo 5).

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"]

In this thread we are going to discuss the REAL reason why alot of PS3 games have mandatory installs. I know this is a tired topic but its simply discussion for the sake of discussion, and alot of people alsoseem to be confused.

Some common false beliefs are that:

-The blu ray drive read speed is slow (irrelevant.)

-Developers need to install to make the game on par with 360 (technically you could say that, but not in the context most people are thinking. this is also false)

-They are doing it to make load times faster, to get an edge on 360 (also false)

The PS3 doesnt have mandatory installs because the read speed of blu ray is slower......it has mandatory installations because Sony forces developers to leave the game files uncompressed, including uncompressed audio and video (not fully uncompressed, just forced to use different compression codecs for audio and video, the same ones used in blu ray movies). The problem with this is, that Blu Ray movies tend to take up ALOT of space on a blu ray disk. This means that with this compression codec, games files tend to be very large. (this is why PS3 game files are always so massively large, and games like Killzone 3 were 42gb, others filling up blu ray discs, etc......Fallout 3 for instance was like 7 gigs on 360 and PC, yet it was around 30 on PS3).

The problem with THIS, however, is that Sony has a strict policy of a ONE DISC LIMIT for games on its platform. Meaning that if the developers game file is too big to fit on one disc, then they are required to zip up the file to make it fit, and then UNZIP it to your harddrive.

This is why so many games on PS3 require mandatory installations.

The mandatory installations have nothing to do with the disparity between the PS3 and 360. They are specifically because the game files are too big to fit on a blu ray disk using the compression codecs Sony forces developers to use, therefore they have to zip the file up, and install it on your harddrive. This is also why alot of multiplats are STILL inferior on the PS3 to the 360 versions even AFTER the mandatory install. This is because those differences are attributed mainly to the 360 having better ram and a better GPU. The installations were NEVER intended to change this. They were there so that they could get the game onto one disk without cutting content for the PS3 version.

delta3074

All files are compressed to some degree. It is just a matter of what compression technique and how compressed.

Data access/transfer is always going to be faster off a HDD than optical disk media.

The 1st gen BD drives used in PS3 are overall slower than DVD drives, which is hardly a surprise given the tech was new when PS3 launched.

There will always be a tradeoff in data access/transfer speed vs how much compression and where decompression occurs. For the PC this is a no brainer since the game is going to be decompressed and reside on the HDD which has much a faster access speed.

The mandatory install in some PS3 games is just a technique to balance this in the PS3. Some games lend themselves well to this while other developers have chosen the integrated cutscene approach (Uncharted) to mask the streaming/loading in the background.

Regardless, the bottleneck is the transfer speed of early BD drives. The amount of compression is not in and of itself the major limiting factor. As I noted. the PC handles uncompressed games on the HDD because the access/transfer speed is so much better. Current BD drives are also much faster so this would not be an issue if the PS3 used them. If the cost wasn't an issue we would use some form of flash memory media instead of disks.

I take it the PS3 Slim also uses the same 2x blu ray drive as the original PS3?