To the people who say blu-ray isnt necessary

all i know is , im buying 300 on blu ray today YAAAAymazdaspeed-rx8

O yeah i need to get that on HD-DVD.

How big is lair? 15-20gb? with 20hours of gameplay

/Thread

I love how the TC makes a topic agreeing Blu Ray is not necessary:

The answer is no technology is necessary,

Blu Ray is good for games but when it comes to DVDs I am happy with the standard.

[QUOTE="jack_russel"][QUOTE="subject117"]

[QUOTE="jack_russel"]blu-ray has a poor cost-to-benifit ratio. There is that better?subject117

Please. Elaborate.

Funny, I spend 599 on my PS3, and I find the Blu-Ray to be a great value for the price. In fact, I purchase a lot less standard DVD's as the quality is so bad comparitively.I also have a nice surround sound system (which cost about twice as much as my PS3 by the way). How is that a bad value, if you're getting something that you like and appreciate?

I've seen people spend more than 600 on a video card for their PC that gets outdated in 6 months... That I think is a bad cost/benefit ratio.

yeah, true dat. if you enjoy something and dont mind paying for it, then to you that is good value. i recently spent a lot of money on a balcony right outside my bedroom. it cost 10 times what a ps3 would be, but i get a lot of enjoyment from it and to me its worth it.

[QUOTE="jack_russel"][QUOTE="linarite"]So it is your opinion that Blu-ray would make GeOW gameplay next gen?blues3531

well these games could have better physics or bigger levels, these games are too linear to say the least

That's less to do with a lack of disc space and more to do with hardware limitations...

Quote "Games are supposed to improve idk about you guys but games like GeOW and Rainbow six vegas dont seem very next gen to me. Theyre great games with fantastic mindblowing graphics but very very last gen gameplay. "

Do you realize that additonal HDD space on a disk isnt really gonna improve the performance of games at all. I read many posts onhow Gears would have been better on Blu-Ray but the truth is it would have more likely put the game at a disadvantage and would have to stream lots of data off of the HD and cache coz of the poor speeds of BR.

I don't like Blu-Ray or HD-DVDand I'm all for pushing forward. I think the formats are timed very badly and are coinciding with movements in gaming and not movements in the film industry. Its far too early especially seens its not needed for gaming at all atm,streaming large data from HD or optimizing large data conversions is fine. Plus BR and HD-DVD are not in my eyes good enough to last 10 or so years and will be out-dated in the film area in 5 years which is not long enough.

About(estimation)85% of people are not ready to move from DVD yet, theyare gonna fail big time in my opinion and in 2/3 years the proper DVDforum guys will make a true successor to DVD.

But all the Sony fans jumping on BR is so amazing bandwagon are very wrong. If the PS3 had used traditional DVD and used the extra cash for a better GPU and 1gb of RAM and maybe some better bandwidths and had left overs to knock the price down £50 the PS3 would have been an amazing console that would make the 360 look very under-powered. BR has only added to PS3's probelms and made it look less powerful than the 360 when it should look far more powerful.

[QUOTE="omarguy01"][QUOTE="sm66612"]I just want to say, PGR4. :lol:moon_1990

pgr4 developers have said that they have to make a compromise cuz the game would not fit on a dvd.they said that they were planning to make a track in both day and night conditions with all those wether efefects.but it wont fit on a dvd.so pgr4 will not take full advantage of 360 hardware. scroll down in www.kotaku.com

.............

its definatly a bonus but needed? i think it depends how much you emphasize the word needed.daveg1

[QUOTE="daveg1"]its definatly a bonus but needed? i think it depends how much you emphasize the word needed.rko07

Oh noes! Games might require you to...insert the second disc! However will we manage? :roll:

[QUOTE="daveg1"]its definatly a bonus but needed? i think it depends how much you emphasize the word needed.rko07

Oh noes! Games might require you to...insert the second disc! However will we manage? :roll:

Planeforger

[QUOTE="Planeforger"]

Oh noes! Games might require you to...insert the second disc! However will we manage? :roll:

rko07

It has never bothered us in the past, so why should it now? Hell, many of my favourite games came on 4-6 CDs.

Blu-ray isn't needed until games won't fit onto a couple discs. We've had disc-swapping before.

And how does Blu-ray make gameplay better?

norfair_dweller

This little argument doesn't work in the case of PGR4. What would you do, swap discs everytime you wanted day or night?

[QUOTE="rko07"][QUOTE="Planeforger"]

Oh noes! Games might require you to...insert the second disc! However will we manage? :roll:

Planeforger

It has never bothered us in the past, so why should it now? Hell, many of my favourite games came on 4-6 CDs.

[QUOTE="daveg1"]its definatly a bonus but needed? i think it depends how much you emphasize the word needed.rko07

all these game at 20+ gigs just havent been compressed at all.sony knows this and they do it to make people like you to think "oh my it is needed this game is over 20+ gigs."

pro evo on the ps3 is said to be over 15 gig already..the 360 version will be the same but it will be below 9 gigs...says it all!

p.s. say if in the future you do require more than one disc for 360 games..what's wrong with that?? one of the best things about a 2-disc game back in the day was the feeling of accomplishment of finisihing the first disc...A.K.A. resident evil..

[QUOTE="Planeforger"][QUOTE="rko07"][QUOTE="Planeforger"]

Oh noes! Games might require you to...insert the second disc! However will we manage? :roll:

rko07

It has never bothered us in the past, so why should it now? Hell, many of my favourite games came on 4-6 CDs.

if bluray was needed, 360 games wouldn't be outclassing ps3 games..

but they are...;)

all these game at 20+ gigs just havent been compressed at all.sony knows this and they do it to make people like you to think "oh my it is needed this game is over 20+ gigs."

pro evo on the ps3 is said to be over 15 gig already..the 360 version will be the same but it will be below 9 gigs...says it all!

p.s. say if in the future you do require more than one disc for 360 games..what's wrong with that?? one of the best things about a 2-disc game back in the day was the feeling of accomplishment of finisihing the first disc...A.K.A. resident evil..

daveg1

[QUOTE="norfair_dweller"]

Blu-ray isn't needed until games won't fit onto a couple discs. We've had disc-swapping before.

And how does Blu-ray make gameplay better?

dubvisions

This little argument doesn't work in the case of PGR4. What would you do, swap discs everytime you wanted day or night?

why not... we've been disk swapping for YEARS... and NOONE EVER had a prob with it, until sony arrived and try to sell the bluray idea....

so far, what game has been proven to need bluray? yep...NONE.....:lol:

[QUOTE="rko07"][QUOTE="daveg1"]its definatly a bonus but needed? i think it depends how much you emphasize the word needed.PelekotansDream

hmm! a remote contorl wasnt nesscary for TV 30 years ago:P

hmm! a remote contorl wasnt nesscary for TV 30 years ago:P

ni6htmare01

[QUOTE="jack_russel"][QUOTE="blues3531"]

[QUOTE="jack_russel"][QUOTE="blues3531"]the gears and gameplay was just an example that came to mind when i was typing this just forget about it i wasnt implying that gears would be better on blu-ray but do u honestly think gta4 couldnt be better if it was ps3 exclusive? sure the game will be huge even on 360's dvd9 but it couldve been sooooo much better if it were ps3 exclusive and took advantage of hdd standard and blu-ray discblues3531

so dude even if it is small it couldve been where u can enter every single building in the game without loading, and i like driving from point a to b is was more realistic to have a commute and exploring was fun

1. somethign the 360 doesnt have standard

2. its not very realistic when every mission your sent on is a 30 second drive now is it?

its not very realistic to walk around NYC with a machine gun and kill anyone then run away for a minute and no1 cares anymore

[QUOTE="Planeforger"]

It has never bothered us in the past, so why should it now? Hell, many of my favourite games came on 4-6 CDs.

rko07

Actually, I'm a PC gamer, so my arguement is still sound.

Also, episodic content is just starting to come onto the scene (Sam and Max: Season One being the first successful episodic series), and downloadable add-ons are certainly very popular.
I'd argue that we're more likely to see a large number of smaller, downloadable games/content in the future than massive 30gb+ ones.

have you never heard of compression?

all these game at 20+ gigs just havent been compressed at all.sony knows this and they do it to make people like you to think "oh my it is needed this game is over 20+ gigs."

pro evo on the ps3 is said to be over 15 gig already..the 360 version will be the same but it will be below 9 gigs...says it all!

p.s. say if in the future you do require more than one disc for 360 games..what's wrong with that?? one of the best things about a 2-disc game back in the day was the feeling of accomplishment of finisihing the first disc...A.K.A. resident evil..

daveg1

Here's a clue, compression does NOT equal quality. Ever worked with video? Ever see the difference between a compressed mpeg-2 (DVD quality) and a high quality, uncompressed AVI?? There's no comparison.

All compression does is just what it says. In the digital world, if you reduce the file size of a file, and have to view it at that size (unable to unpack) the quality has been reduced.

Actually, I'm a PC gamer, so my arguement is still sound.

Also, episodic content is just starting to come onto the scene (Sam and Max: Season One being the first successful episodic series), and downloadable add-ons are certainly very popular.
I'd argue that we're more likely to see a large number of smaller, downloadable games/content in the future than massive 30gb+ ones.

Planeforger

[QUOTE="daveg1"]

have you never heard of compression?

all these game at 20+ gigs just havent been compressed at all.sony knows this and they do it to make people like you to think "oh my it is needed this game is over 20+ gigs."

pro evo on the ps3 is said to be over 15 gig already..the 360 version will be the same but it will be below 9 gigs...says it all!

p.s. say if in the future you do require more than one disc for 360 games..what's wrong with that?? one of the best things about a 2-disc game back in the day was the feeling of accomplishment of finisihing the first disc...A.K.A. resident evil..

dubvisions

Here's a clue, compression does NOT equal quality. Ever worked with video? Ever see the difference between a compressed mpeg-2 (DVD quality) and a high quality, uncompressed AVI?? There's no comparison.

All compression does is just what it says. In the digital world, if you reduce the file size of a file, and have to view it at that size (unable to unpack) the quality has been reduced.

im not saying it does'nt have its bonus's like i said in my first post..it just depends on how much you emphasize the word needed....

really its just better for devs to have more capacity for storage on one disc..

[QUOTE="daveg1"]

all these game at 20+ gigs just havent been compressed at all.sony knows this and they do it to make people like you to think "oh my it is needed this game is over 20+ gigs."

pro evo on the ps3 is said to be over 15 gig already..the 360 version will be the same but it will be below 9 gigs...says it all!

p.s. say if in the future you do require more than one disc for 360 games..what's wrong with that?? one of the best things about a 2-disc game back in the day was the feeling of accomplishment of finisihing the first disc...A.K.A. resident evil..

rko07

i think your a little deluded to what having blu-ray and not having it actualy means..

Do you want to live in a world where nothing improves? Would u like it here if there were no cell phones, ipods or game consoles or advancing computers? Im just sayings its absolutely stupid to say a next gen format like blu-ray with 5 times the space of a dvd9 isnt necessary because no technology is necessary but they all help improve the world around us.

blues3531

Hahahaha, get carried away much there buddy? Nobody is trying to prevent technological advancement, they just want to optimize by avoiding overly expensive forms of technology. Blu ray isn't going to cure cancer there bud, implementing uneeded technology is just a waste of money until it becomes required.

Also what is the difference between 2 "episodic" games and 2 sequels?rko07

Episodic games are cheaper, offer a richer gaming experience (arguably), are influenced by the players, and can come out every month, instead of every four years?

The Half-Life episode(s) are an example of a richer gaming experience - it may have only been 4-6 hours long, but that was 4-6 hours of top-quality entertainment. Short episodes allow developers to polish and perfect sections of the game; a 20-hour game may only have a few hours of excellent gameplay, with a lot of 'filler'.

Valve also monitored how people played Episode 1, and took suggestions that players made, and will be implementing all of these to make Episode 2 even better. Thus, episodic gaming allows developers to fix 'problems' early, instead of having the same boring gameplay elements for, say, 20 hours.

Sam and Max: Season One also demonstrated this - we could clearly see that the developers had taken on our suggestions, and we ended up with better, more polished games. Also, S&M managed to release a great episode every month, and have begun to release info about the second season. If Season Two begins soon, it'll be the same as having two full games in two years - which is a hell of a lot faster than non-episodic gaming.

I'm not saying that it is the best way to go, but episodic gaming is going to become popular in the future, and it may have an impact on the 'format war'.

I hate this argument from 360 fans and it mostly spouts from jealousy as my guess or just ignorance. If you think its not necessary you first need to realize is any advancement in technology necessary??

Is the geforce 9 series necessary? (over 3x faster than the 8800gtx) no its not but itll make games a hell of a lot better.

The answer is no technology is necessary, but dont you guys like and appreciate it when things improve? Games are supposed to improve idk about you guys but games like GeOW and Rainbow six vegas dont seem very next gen to me. Theyre great games with fantastic mindblowing graphics but very very last gen gameplay.

Do you want to live in a world where nothing improves? Would u like it here if there were no cell phones, ipods or game consoles or advancing computers? Im just sayings its absolutely stupid to say a next gen format like blu-ray with 5 times the space of a dvd9 isnt necessary because no technology is necessary but they all help improve the world around us.

blues3531

BR is not needed for games atm.

Reasons:

1) BR has slow read speeds so for games with large files it will need to plant them on your HDD not that great really.

2) Many games take up lots of room on disc due to audio and cgi. Audio is the one thing that BR will be greatful for if you have a gorgous thousand pound system to take advantage. But audio is also the easiest and best compressable and many games hitting (15+gb) are due to large uncompressed audio. Compressing these audio files will provide plenty of room though at a lower quality (90% of people do not have a system capable of the true audio sounds) so it shouldnt really matter for at least 5-10 years. CGI is more and more getting built from teh game engine with slight filters to improve it so the room for CGI is not needed as much.

3)Compression is getting better all the time and still has room for improvement.

4) Why does PS3 NEED BR when it has a installed HDD which it can use to stream large games. Why not still have 15-30gb games, keep DVD9 use a larger HDD like 200gb or so fairly cheaper than BR and use the extra saved cash on a better GPU and 1gb of ram coz 256 is not enough for video.

5) ...........could go on and on

BR & HDDVD are not needed

Episodic games are cheaper, offer a richer gaming experience (arguably), are influenced by the players, and can come out every month, instead of every four years?

The Half-Life episode(s) are an example of a richer gaming experience - it may have only been 4-6 hours long, but that was 4-6 hours of top-quality entertainment. Short episodes allow developers to polish and perfect sections of the game; a 20-hour game may only have a few hours of excellent gameplay, with a lot of 'filler'.

Valve also monitored how people played Episode 1, and took suggestions that players made, and will be implementing all of these to make Episode 2 even better. Thus, episodic gaming allows developers to fix 'problems' early, instead of having the same boring gameplay elements for, say, 20 hours.

Sam and Max: Season One also demonstrated this - we could clearly see that the developers had taken on our suggestions, and we ended up with better, more polished games. Also, S&M managed to release a great episode every month, and have begun to release info about the second season. If Season Two begins soon, it'll be the same as having two full games in two years - which is a hell of a lot faster than non-episodic gaming.

I'm not saying that it is the best way to go, but episodic gaming is going to become popular in the future, and it may have an impact on the 'format war'.

Planeforger

BR is not needed for games atm.

Reasons:

1) BR has slow read speeds so for games with large files it will need to plant them on your HDD not that great really.

2) Many games take up lots of room on disc due to audio and cgi. Audio is the one thing that BR will be greatful for if you have a gorgous thousand pound system to take advantage. But audio is also the easiest and best compressable and many games hitting (15+gb) are due to large uncompressed audio. Compressing these audio files will provide plenty of room though at a lower quality (90% of people do not have a system capable of the true audio sounds) so it shouldnt really matter for at least 5-10 years. CGI is more and more getting built from teh game engine with slight filters to improve it so the room for CGI is not needed as much.

3)Compression is getting better all the time and still has room for improvement.

4) Why does PS3 NEED BR when it has a installed HDD which it can use to stream large games. Why not still have 15-30gb games, keep DVD9 use a larger HDD like 200gb or so fairly cheaper than BR and use the extra saved cash on a better GPU and 1gb of ram coz 256 is not enough for video.

5) ...........could go on and on

BR & HDDVD are not needed

mightyboosh13

I agree on some of what you say but certain full games do not have boring parts and are special in many ways. Also they are the kind of games that you want to wait for a year or so and look forward to playing them. Personally I would not have the feeling of satisfaction if I got to play my favorite game and only saw it improve tiny bits every month.. It's much more exciting to experience the fruit of 1 year of labor in my opinion and say "Finally!" when I get my hands on it.rko07

True, but you could do that with episodic gaming, by waiting until the entire season is out and playing them all at the same time.

Anyway, whether it's good or bad, popular game series like Half-Life and The Longest Journey are going episodic (even GTA is going to have episodic expansions). I'd bet that downloadable episodes will become popular, possibly reducing the need for Blu-Ray by a small amount.

[QUOTE="mightyboosh13"]

BR is not needed for games atm.

Reasons:

1) BR has slow read speeds so for games with large files it will need to plant them on your HDD not that great really.

2) Many games take up lots of room on disc due to audio and cgi. Audio is the one thing that BR will be greatful for if you have a gorgous thousand pound system to take advantage. But audio is also the easiest and best compressable and many games hitting (15+gb) are due to large uncompressed audio. Compressing these audio files will provide plenty of room though at a lower quality (90% of people do not have a system capable of the true audio sounds) so it shouldnt really matter for at least 5-10 years. CGI is more and more getting built from teh game engine with slight filters to improve it so the room for CGI is not needed as much.

3)Compression is getting better all the time and still has room for improvement.

4) Why does PS3 NEED BR when it has a installed HDD which it can use to stream large games. Why not still have 15-30gb games, keep DVD9 use a larger HDD like 200gb or so fairly cheaper than BR and use the extra saved cash on a better GPU and 1gb of ram coz 256 is not enough for video.

5) ...........could go on and on

BR & HDDVD are not needed

rko07

lol

True, but you could do that with episodic gaming, by waiting until the entire season is out and playing them all at the same time.

Anyway, whether it's good or bad, popular game series like Half-Life and The Longest Journey are going episodic (even GTA is going to have episodic expansions). I'd bet that downloadable episodes will become popular, possibly reducing the need for Blu-Ray by a small amount.

Planeforger

What advantage does Blu-ray honestly bring to the table? The reality? It allows more audio and CGI data to fit onto a disk, as those two things are the biggest space consumers.

It doesn't allow better textures, as you can't pile more into a game than it's RAM/CPU/GPU combo can handle, and it doesn't allow better gameplay, as that is dependent not on how much data can fit onto a disk.

In reality, Blu-ray gaming just allows more audio and CGI data.

And really, those things are only useful in particular genres or series (Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid). When you consider the cost Blu-ray brings to gaming, it ain't worth it. Maybe it will be in the future, but it isn't now.

Also, saying that we should simple adopt it as it's an improvement over old technology is a bad argument. The technology market is a mosaic of consumers and producers adopting what was NEEDED, not what was technically better. If we always adopted the slight improvements, the Super CD would have taken off. This doesn't mean Blu-ray is bound to fail, it just means it isn't bound to succeed.

[QUOTE="rko07"][QUOTE="daveg1"]

all these game at 20+ gigs just havent been compressed at all.sony knows this and they do it to make people like you to think "oh my it is needed this game is over 20+ gigs."

pro evo on the ps3 is said to be over 15 gig already..the 360 version will be the same but it will be below 9 gigs...says it all!

p.s. say if in the future you do require more than one disc for 360 games..what's wrong with that?? one of the best things about a 2-disc game back in the day was the feeling of accomplishment of finisihing the first disc...A.K.A. resident evil..

daveg1

i think your a little deluded to what having blu-ray and not having it actualy means..

i have never heard of a racing game being multidisc... According to your logic, if we want PGR4 to reach its full potential, we would need atleast 2 discs.

Put your self on a developer's shoes.

Would you want more space for you so that you can add more game features, gameplay, improve graphics, sounds/audio etc.?

A lot of game developers said that having more space is a good thing for them cause they feel free. Kojima even said DVD9 isnt enough for MGS4. What Kojima is lying? and the other developers are lying?

What if the extra maps for Gears of War isnt really suppose to be "extra"?

Why is that Gears of War so short?

It doesn't allow better textures

Danm_999

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

It doesn't allow better textures

rko07

Again, you do realize that more space for textures doesn't somehow magically alleviate the GPU/CPUs ability to render?

i have never heard of a racing game being multidisc... According to your logic, if we want PGR4 to reach its full potential, we would need atleast 2 discs.

Kalias

Again, you do realize that more space for textures doesn't somehow magically alleviate the GPU/CPUs ability to render?

Danm_999

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

Again, you do realize that more space for textures doesn't somehow magically alleviate the GPU/CPUs ability to render?

rko07

Well, firstly the 360's CPU isn't great, compared to the PS3's and modern PC CPUs, and secondly RAM is also a limiting factor.

But the bottom line is, that no matter how many textures Blu-ray allows you to cram in (and it's a lot, since Blu-rays space allows a lot of room and textures take up comparitively little space), you cannot do more than your hardware can handle.

Well, firstly the 360's CPU isn't great, compared to the PS3's and modern PC CPUs, and secondly RAM is also a limiting factor.

But the bottom line is, that no matter how many textures Blu-ray allows you to cram in (and it's a lot, since Blu-rays space allows a lot of room and textures take up comparitively little space), you cannot do more than your hardware can handle.

Danm_999

[QUOTE="Kalias"]

i have never heard of a racing game being multidisc... According to your logic, if we want PGR4 to reach its full potential, we would need atleast 2 discs.

rko07