Uncharted: The Greatest Action Adventure Franchise Ever Made?

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deactivated-66e3137ab3ad5

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#1 deactivated-66e3137ab3ad5
Member since 2006 • 16761 Posts

Another GamingBolt article. Lol, it almost looks like I'm promoting the site. :P But I can't help it, they've got some cool article over there.

This one has a video preview too.

http://gamingbolt.com/uncharted-the-greatest-action-adventure-franchise-ever-made

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iAtrocious

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#2 iAtrocious
Member since 2010 • 1567 Posts

No. Zelda.

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DarkLink77

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#3 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

Uncharted is one of the most overrated franchises of all time. It's not new, it's not unique, it just has nice production values and it's very cinematic. It's a flash in the pan that no one will care about ten years from now because everything it ever did will have been done better by another flash in the pan game that everyone will praise to death. Kind of like Tomb Raider.

Also, as the guy above me said, Zelda is better. MUCH better.

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glez13

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#4 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10314 Posts

No. Zelda.

iAtrocious

This. Zelda is the greatest action adventure franchise ever made.

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LegatoSkyheart

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#5 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

I agree.

Uncharted 2 is a Masterpiece.

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deactivated-66e3137ab3ad5

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#6 deactivated-66e3137ab3ad5
Member since 2006 • 16761 Posts
I actually agree about Zelda. Actually, I think GoW is better, but THAT IS JUST MY OPINION. I respect Zelda a LOT. The franchise, not the noob princess.
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HailCaesarHail

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#7 HailCaesarHail
Member since 2010 • 814 Posts
Uncharted is a very good series, not a flash in the pan like some would hope. Zelda is ok, i never really though it was as great as some think. for me Metal Gear series is the best action adventure series ever, and for me the best gaming series ever. you right TC they got a good site over there.
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LegatoSkyheart

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#8 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

No. Zelda.

iAtrocious

I'm more inclined to Add Fantasy to Zelda.

But I do agree that Zelda is one of the best Action Adventure Games ever made.

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michael582

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#9 michael582
Member since 2003 • 1064 Posts

Uncharted is one of the most overrated franchises of all time. It's not new, it's not unique, it just has nice production values and it's very cinematic. It's a flash in the pan that no one will care about ten years from now because everything it ever did will have been done better by another flash in the pan game that everyone will praise to death. Kind of like Tomb Raider.

Also, as the guy above me said, Zelda is better. MUCH better.

DarkLink77

Basically what you said...

Although I won't discredit the series. The uncharted games are great and I look forward to the 3rd installment.

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DarkLink77

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#10 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

Uncharted is a very good series, not a flash in the panlike some would hope. Zelda is ok, i never really though it was as great as some think. for me Metal Gear series is the best action adventure series ever, and for me the best gaming series ever. you right TC they got a good site over there.HailCaesarHail

No one hopes that the game they just bought will turn out to be fairly unspectacular. It just happens.

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NaveedLife

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#11 NaveedLife
Member since 2010 • 17179 Posts

Depends if you consider Zelda an action Adventure. I would rank it second, but to be fair to both it and Zelda, Zelda has had WAY more games out.

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Wolfetan

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#12 Wolfetan
Member since 2010 • 7522 Posts

Even with my limited gaming, no. God of War is better, and Zelda is the best.

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jg4xchamp

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#13 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

No
Hell NO
**** No
Good God No Ab
solutely
Not Not in this life time

Those are my sentiments. To Zelda included unless we're strictly speaking A Link to the Past/Majora's Mask, and even then it wouldn't be the best as a franchise.

Come at me bro.

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Rocky32189

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#14 Rocky32189
Member since 2007 • 8995 Posts
Just like everyone else has said... Zelda.
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Kan0nF0dder

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#15 Kan0nF0dder
Member since 2009 • 1962 Posts
To counter the above, isn't the Zelda franchise more a puzzle orientated Action-RPG series.
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#16 NaveedLife
Member since 2010 • 17179 Posts

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

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Vadamee

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#17 Vadamee
Member since 2009 • 1195 Posts
Tomb Raider :)(At least, the original)
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#18 UpJTBoogie
Member since 2010 • 152 Posts

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

NaveedLife
Could be the hate on the critically acclaimed mentality, kind of like Halo.
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#19 KevinButlerVP
Member since 2010 • 2378 Posts

[QUOTE="iAtrocious"]

No. Zelda.

glez13

This. Zelda is the greatest action adventure franchise ever made.

the main reason ppl like Zelda so much is because it's a nostalgic franchise, it's really nothing special if you never played it a long time ago when it first came out
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#20 Wolfetan
Member since 2010 • 7522 Posts

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

NaveedLife
Metal Gear Solid.
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Lucianu

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#21 Lucianu
Member since 2007 • 10347 Posts

The person who wrote that should quit life. And the site should be taken down.

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#22 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

NaveedLife
Some of it's not hate. I love Uncharted 2. They are just putting the franchise on a pedestal that frankly it honestly can't even begin to live up to at times.
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#23 Kan0nF0dder
Member since 2009 • 1962 Posts

[QUOTE="HailCaesarHail"]Uncharted is a very good series, not a flash in the panlike some would hope. Zelda is ok, i never really though it was as great as some think. for me Metal Gear series is the best action adventure series ever, and for me the best gaming series ever. you right TC they got a good site over there.DarkLink77

No one hopes that the game they just bought will turn out to be fairly unspectacular. It just happens.

Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.
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#24 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

To counter the above, isn't the Zelda franchise more a puzzle orientated Action-RPG series.Kan0nF0dder

For a Short Answer, Yes.

But when it comes to Adventure Series, People have to think Zelda.

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NaveedLife

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#25 NaveedLife
Member since 2010 • 17179 Posts

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

UpJTBoogie

Could be the hate on the critically acclaimed mentality, kind of like Halo.

I used to be a Nintendo fanboy and hated on Halo, but when I played Halo 3 I actually really enjoyed it. I personally think the series is SLIGHTLY overrated but I can respect that it is one of the best FPS games in its own way. I would buy it if it was on PC or PS3 :P.

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iAtrocious

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#26 iAtrocious
Member since 2010 • 1567 Posts

[QUOTE="glez13"]

[QUOTE="iAtrocious"]

No. Zelda.

KevinButlerVP

This. Zelda is the greatest action adventure franchise ever made.

the main reason ppl like Zelda so much is because it's a nostalgic franchise, it's really nothing special if you never played it a long time ago when it first came out

Yeah... Zelda's only good because I think it was good when I played it on the N64, not because I actually played it back them :roll:. Not nostalgia; Quality.

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DarkLink77

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#27 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

NaveedLife
Oh, look, it's that "cinematic flair!" argument. Why is everyone so obsessed with games being like movies? Games need to be GAMES. They don't need to copy movies to be good, but no one seems to realize that, so more and more dev houses are trying to be film studios. The whole "Cinematic" thing is one of the worst things to happen to gaming in a long time.
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#28 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Uncharted is shooter first, adventure/platformer second. And no, Zelda, Metroid and Castlevania all have something to say about the claim UC is the "best" the action-adventure genre has to offer.
Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.Kan0nF0dder
The franchise may not be flash-in-the-pan, but each individual game seems to be. As soon as UC2 dropped, everyone stopped talking about UC. And as soon as UC3 drops, everyone is going to forget UC2 even exists. It is the same thing with a lot of franchises this generation, they get replaced so quickly with so many sequels, people tend to forget the ones that came before. It also says something to the lasting quality of many of these games as well. Being able to be so easily forgotten means that no one will really care to pick up UC2 10 years from now and play it again... it'll be dated within the genre by its successor, let alone everything else that comes out in that period in time. A flash-in-the-pan is defined as something that makes everyone exclaim "this is the greatest thing ever" and then forget about it once something greater comes along. Lasting franchises tend to have something unique about all their iterations that makes them stand out from the rest of the crowd. I'd say Mario and Zelda are good examples of this. They are both based on their own similar mechanic (Mario platforming, and Zelda action-adventure), but each iteration has done something completely different and unique. SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, SMW2YI, SM64, SMS, SMG, SMG2; TLoZ, ZIIAoL, ALttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS. All of them have either an art styIe and/or gameplay elements that make them unique. And both franchises have been around for 24-25 years... and still are extremely popular and see tons of people still going back more than two decades later and enjoying them still, or enjoying them for the first time. Games like Uncharted 2 are just improvements on what already worked in the first game with little altered in terms of content or styIe. What will really illustrate this, is the effect that UC3's release has on UC2 and the subsequent years as time passes. How many people do you really think will be playing UC2 10 years from now? Or UC?
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#29 Basinboy
Member since 2003 • 14558 Posts

@TC:

You know you're inviting the hordes of sheep to massacre you with their Master Swords and boomerangs for that thread title. But at your defense, I'll validate it's worth the argument though I believe it's a losing battle since Zelda's longevity and how it has had to reinvent itself with each generation to stay relevant definitely gives it an added depth over what Uncharted has done.

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glez13

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#30 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10314 Posts

OMG I just realized that I completely forgot about MGS.:shock: Now I don't know what is the best Action Adventure franchise:?

I posted without thinking clearly:oops:

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#31 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="HailCaesarHail"]Uncharted is a very good series, not a flash in the panlike some would hope. Zelda is ok, i never really though it was as great as some think. for me Metal Gear series is the best action adventure series ever, and for me the best gaming series ever. you right TC they got a good site over there.Kan0nF0dder

No one hopes that the game they just bought will turn out to be fairly unspectacular. It just happens.

Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.

I won'y have to accept anything, actually, especially just because video game critics say so. Video game "journalism" is a joke. I couldn't care less what they think. I can pretty much guarantee that ten years from whenever they stop making Uncharted games, no one will care about the franchise. People will still care about Quake 3, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc, etc, etc. Those are timeless games. Uncharted is a flash in the pan.
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#32 NaveedLife
Member since 2010 • 17179 Posts

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

DarkLink77

Oh, look, it's that "cinematic flair!" argument. Why is everyone so obsessed with games being like movies? Games need to be GAMES. They don't need to copy movies to be good, but no one seems to realize that, so more and more dev houses are trying to be film studios. The whole "Cinematic" thing is one of the worst things to happen to gaming in a long time.

Gaming has ALWAYS been getting more and more cinematic. It is what happens when graphics get better, animations more smooth and detail increased. There is nothing wrong with making a game cinematic. Does that mean mario needs cutscenes and such? Hell no! But some games benefit greatly from it, and Uncharted actually puts you IN the situations, which is unlike any other game for the most part. When it is helping the gameplay as Uncharted does, it is a great experience.

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iAtrocious

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#33 iAtrocious
Member since 2010 • 1567 Posts

@TC:

You know you're inviting the hordes of sheep to massacre you with their Master Swords and boomerangs for that thread title. But at your defense, I'll validate it's worth the argument though I believe it's a losing battle since Zelda's longevity and how it has had to reinvent itself with each generation to stay relevant definitely gives it an added depth over what Uncharted has done.

Basinboy

And it's not only Zelda. You have Castlevania and Metroid that are considerably more respectable than Uncharted (a great franchise -- far from the greatest, though).

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#34 HailCaesarHail
Member since 2010 • 814 Posts

[QUOTE="Kan0nF0dder"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

No one hopes that the game they just bought will turn out to be fairly unspectacular. It just happens.

DarkLink77

Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.

I won'y have to accept anything, actually, especially just because video game critics say so. Video game "journalism" is a joke. I couldn't care less what they think. I can pretty much guarantee that ten years from whenever they stop making Uncharted games, no one will care about the franchise. People will still care about Quake 3, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc, etc, etc. Those are timeless games. Uncharted is a flash in the pan.

i dont care about any of the games you just listed, so i guess your wrong.

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#35 T-razor1
Member since 2002 • 1164 Posts

The uncharted series is quite good but just like the killzone series is terribly overrated.

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deactivated-66e3137ab3ad5

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#36 deactivated-66e3137ab3ad5
Member since 2006 • 16761 Posts

@TC:

You know you're inviting the hordes of sheep to massacre you with their Master Swords and boomerangs for that thread title. But at your defense, I'll validate it's worth the argument though I believe it's a losing battle since Zelda's longevity and how it has had to reinvent itself with each generation to stay relevant definitely gives it an added depth over what Uncharted has done.

Basinboy
Well, it's not me making those claims, it's the site. So I guess I'm safe. For now.
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funsohng

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#37 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts
TC, you have successfully made me believe gamingbolt.com is some ridiculous website that I should never trust with past two threads.
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DarkLink77

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#38 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Kan0nF0dder"] Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.HailCaesarHail

I won'y have to accept anything, actually, especially just because video game critics say so. Video game "journalism" is a joke. I couldn't care less what they think. I can pretty much guarantee that ten years from whenever they stop making Uncharted games, no one will care about the franchise. People will still care about Quake 3, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc, etc, etc. Those are timeless games. Uncharted is a flash in the pan.

i dont care about any of the games you just listed, so i guess your wrong.

That's probably because you can't play any of them on a Playstation. Here, I'll add Metal Gear Solid, Devil May Cry, and Final Fantasy VII. That better?
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Wolfetan

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#39 Wolfetan
Member since 2010 • 7522 Posts
TC, you have successfully made me believe gamingbolt.com is some ridiculous website that I should never trust with past two threads.funsohng
The guy also said Mass Effect 2 was his favorite game ever.....
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#40 Snakemaster9
Member since 2010 • 1420 Posts

No it isn't but is one of the best. It isn't overrated. It still has replay value with the MP. So. Yah

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NaveedLife

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#41 NaveedLife
Member since 2010 • 17179 Posts

[QUOTE="HailCaesarHail"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I won'y have to accept anything, actually, especially just because video game critics say so. Video game "journalism" is a joke. I couldn't care less what they think. I can pretty much guarantee that ten years from whenever they stop making Uncharted games, no one will care about the franchise. People will still care about Quake 3, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc, etc, etc. Those are timeless games. Uncharted is a flash in the pan. DarkLink77

i dont care about any of the games you just listed, so i guess your wrong.

That's probably because you can't play any of them on a Playstation. Here, I'll add Metal Gear Solid, Devil May Cry, and Final Fantasy VII. That better?

I love Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, MGS, AND Uncharted ;). They are all among my favorite games of all time.

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glez13

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#42 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10314 Posts

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

I honestly don't understand people who hate Uncharted so much and give it no credit. At the very least people need to recognize it is one of the most if not THE MOST cinematic, immersive, and move like experiences ever in gaming. I can't think of another game that puts you IN THE MOVIE (feel) as much as it.

DarkLink77

Oh, look, it's that "cinematic flair!" argument. Why is everyone so obsessed with games being like movies? Games need to be GAMES. They don't need to copy movies to be good, but no one seems to realize that, so more and more dev houses are trying to be film studios. The whole "Cinematic" thing is one of the worst things to happen to gaming in a long time.

This is true all those cinematic games have come and gone and I'm sure some of them people don't even remember even when at some point they were the most cinematic games ever. MGS, Shenmue, Fahrenheit, the cinematic platformers Flashback and Blackthorne, and who knows what more. They have all come and gone, over and over again. I don't know why some are so obsessed with this. Recognition is one thing but I really think this is an obsession, or maybe simple fanboyism?

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hiphops_savior

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#43 hiphops_savior
Member since 2007 • 8535 Posts
Uncharted is a great series, no doubt, but it's nothing more than a child of Tomb Raider, Gears of War and Indiana Jones clobbered together for a cinematic experience that paces pretty well. In short, it has a little bit of everything, but nothing that truly revolutionizes the gaming industry. Greatest Action Adventure series ever 1. Zelda 2. Metroid 3. God of War
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#44 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Uncharted is shooter first, adventure/platformer second. And no, Zelda, Metroid and Castlevania all have something to say about the claim UC is the "best" the action-adventure genre has to offer.
Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.Kan0nF0dder
The franchise may not be flash-in-the-pan, but each individual game seems to be. As soon as UC2 dropped, everyone stopped talking about UC. And as soon as UC3 drops, everyone is going to forget UC2 even exists. It is the same thing with a lot of franchises this generation, they get replaced so quickly with so many sequels, people tend to forget the ones that came before. It also says something to the lasting quality of many of these games as well. Being able to be so easily forgotten means that no one will really care to pick up UC2 10 years from now and play it again... it'll be dated within the genre by its successor, let alone everything else that comes out in that period in time. A flash-in-the-pan is defined as something that makes everyone exclaim "this is the greatest thing ever" and then forget about it once something greater comes along. Lasting franchises tend to have something unique about all their iterations that makes them stand out from the rest of the crowd. I'd say Mario and Zelda are good examples of this. They are both based on their own similar mechanic (Mario platforming, and Zelda action-adventure), but each iteration has done something completely different and unique. SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, SMW2YI, SM64, SMS, SMG, SMG2; TLoZ, ZIIAoL, ALttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS. All of them have either an art styIe and/or gameplay elements that make them unique. And both franchises have been around for 24-25 years... and still are extremely popular and see tons of people still going back more than two decades later and enjoying them still, or enjoying them for the first time. Games like Uncharted 2 are just improvements on what already worked in the first game with little altered in terms of content or styIe. What will really illustrate this, is the effect that UC3's release has on UC2 and the subsequent years as time passes. How many people do you really think will be playing UC2 10 years from now? Or UC?

Summed up with much more tact and precision than I can manage. This is what I'm saying. Excellent post, foxhound.
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glez13

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#45 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10314 Posts

No it isn't but is one of the best. It isn't overrated. It still has replay value with the MP. So. Yah

Snakemaster9

Yeah. But the only thing Action Adventure something in Uncharted is the singleplayer. The Multiplayer is pure Action.

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SaltyMeatballs

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#46 SaltyMeatballs
Member since 2009 • 25165 Posts
Zelda.
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T-razor1

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#47 T-razor1
Member since 2002 • 1164 Posts

[QUOTE="Kan0nF0dder"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

No one hopes that the game they just bought will turn out to be fairly unspectacular. It just happens.

DarkLink77

Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.

I won'y have to accept anything, actually, especially just because video game critics say so. Video game "journalism" is a joke. I couldn't care less what they think. I can pretty much guarantee that ten years from whenever they stop making Uncharted games, no one will care about the franchise. People will still care about Quake 3, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc, etc, etc. Those are timeless games. Uncharted is a flash in the pan.

I wouldn't go as far to say that they're a joke but I will say that my confidence in what most of them write was totally shaken with the release of KZ2. Anybody who was remotely intrerested in this game upon its release should know why.

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glez13

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#48 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10314 Posts

Uncharted is a great series, no doubt, but it's nothing more than a child of Tomb Raider, Gears of War and Indiana Jones clobbered together for a cinematic experience that paces pretty well. In short, it has a little bit of everything, but nothing that truly revolutionizes the gaming industry. Greatest Action Adventure series ever 1. Zelda 2. Metroid 3. God of Warhiphops_savior

But, bu, but Metal Gear Solid :cry:

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AAllxxjjnn

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#49 AAllxxjjnn
Member since 2008 • 19992 Posts

Yes. It is by far the best experience i've ever experienced, and I don't see any other experience surpassing it until Uncharted 3. Naughty GOD does the cinematic interactive experience so much better than anyone else in the industry, which is IMO what every developer should be aiming for. Unfortunately none of them are close to achieving the level of perfect Uncharted 2 did, and they'll be even further behind once Uncharted 3 hits and brings cinematic gaming to the level beyond the next level.

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#50 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Kan0nF0dder"] Except you're wrong, and when Uncharted 3 drops and recieves more triple-A reviews across the board, you'll have to accept the franchise as more than a 'flash in the pan'. Games don't have to be unique to be fantastic or go down in gaming history.T-razor1

I won'y have to accept anything, actually, especially just because video game critics say so. Video game "journalism" is a joke. I couldn't care less what they think. I can pretty much guarantee that ten years from whenever they stop making Uncharted games, no one will care about the franchise. People will still care about Quake 3, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc, etc, etc. Those are timeless games. Uncharted is a flash in the pan.

I wouldn't go as far to say that they're a joke but I will say that my confidence in what most of them write was totally shaken with the release of KZ2. Anybody who was remotely intrerested in this game upon its release should know why.

Can you explain for those of us that weren't?