What does Breath of the Wild do that most open-world games do not?

This is the part where we question, what if jumpaction is champ, but good.

You can CLIMB everything and anything. FINALLY.

Breath of the Wild really lays an excellent foundation for future Zelda games to build from. I don't think it's as good as most other Zelda games, but I think that as Nintendo starts to incorporate more dungeons, above-ground side quests that have meaningful rewards, more enemy variety (especially the mini-bosses), and some sort of actual narrative, future games will be much better. As others have said, it really nails the open world sandbox far better than any other game has. It just needs more of a main quest and less repetition, imo. I would also really like to see the enemy scaling go away.

The creativity is at its best for speedrunning purposes actually. In terms of sequence breaking and whatnot.

And no, GTA's emergent situations from what I have seen are nowhere near as complex as anything found in BotW or MGS5. GTA is extremely shallow in the sandbox department which is why people like me refuse to call it a sandbox. Like Jump said, the elements are too segmented from eachother. In Zelda everything was connected together, this is a very common thing found in good sandboxes. Be it Zelda, MGS5, Thief, Dwarf Fortress, EVE Online or Liberal Crime Squad.

The actual sandbox and physics engine in Zelda allows for so much more creativity than anything found in GTA.

That would be the biggest revelation/twist in SW's history lol

I'm sorry but no.

Again gta is a sandbox. Zelda has some immersive sim elements with system driven gameplay, but not much reactivity with the AI and generally presented with simplistic scenarios. But again it doesn't translate to tangible rewards in game. Speed running is a personal achievement as its meaningless withing the gameplay mechanics. Similar to getting exceptional at driving/flying/shooting and being able to do some really cool stuff in that realm.

I take any Assassins Creed game over Breath of wild if i had to pick one.

It has a Nintendo brand on the box and a series logo older than most of the people on the planet.

@waahahah: I am not alone in believing the mechanics of GTA V are antiquated and below par. This isn't something exclusive to me. If anything, this is one of the more common complaints made about the game. I found the singleplayer game easy. It's easy because much of the combat pertains to cover based shooting and auto aiming at your enemies in an empowering manner. That's alright. A game can be both easy and fun but some more kinetic movement probably would have encouraged more engagement in the game. Simply Google 'GTA V bad shooting' and you'll find plenty of like-minded gamers who didn't enjoy the shooting mechanics either. This isn't to say you can't have a differing opinion but it must be considered that the completely blunt auto-aim is compensating for something... that something being a really rigid and stiff aiming system.

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More missions that used the cop system would have been great. Like a mentioned, a mission like Trash Truck is actually an effective use of the open world but not all missions play to those strengths. If memory serves, the majority don't. Unless I bluntly give rise to a kill rampage, the fleeing pedestrians (who barely contribute anything other than visually) and cops just don't come. The problem too is that unless the cops start at the 3-star rating, they're incredibly easy to lose which means that unless you are:

1. Purposefully trying to get cops to chase you

or

2. A mission dumps a high star-rating on you.

The cops too are not a bother.

The Korok seeds have a loop of 1. Engage with your map to seek out interesting looking locations 2. Find a korok puzzle and solve it (takes a very small amount of time) 3. Use these to expand your inventory is a more valuable engagement with the world for me than trying to get cops to chase me for no reason other than to shoot stuff without any actual benefit to the game-loop. I do think the interactivity is a bit shallow in GTA V for me. :/

There are cool nuances like if you stand close to a stranger for long, they'll call the cops and the attention to detail in the world itself is excellent. It's an excellent simulation! But it doesn't make for much in the way of fun gameplay experiences for me. I also don't agree that there is much to do with the mechanics other than again: kill enough people to get more cops to follow you so that you can kill as much stuff until you die. You don't get anything out of doing it. You might have a fun time, this depends on what you want out of a game and other games like Just Cause and Saints Row having even more of that is also something to note... you also just lose money and ammo doing it...

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I disagree with you. I think those ideas are varied enough such that they act as a difference-in-kind to the core game loop but never commands the core game loop which is very much in exploring, discovering and expanding. I think these ideas are as long as they needed to be to get their point across. As soon as you figure out how to navigate the Lost Woods, you don't need to push that any further than the solution permits. I do feel there are areas where this could have been improved but not in the examples you are providing.

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Well GTA 5 sometimes has meaty side missions. Sometimes it's quite bad. (see Exercising the Truth which I strain is awful). Ditto BoTW which has bad side quests too. I think you're completely missing the point of the sandbox though and GTA 5's meat largely being confined to linear, narrative driven side missions is not a healthy use of a sandbox nor an open world. Certainly not as much as I feel BoTW succeeds by comparison thanks in part to the language of the world and its collectibles locations. Because 'Misko, The Great Bandit' side quest being a simple example of how to use an open world to design a quest makes much of the side quests of GTA 5's open world less prevalent. Again more cops. Harder cops would be great. :) Not tennis, golf, running up and down in a desert (That's the aforementioned Espilon Mission). Not cut-scenes nor driving a fork lift in a dock. Not asking you to buy masks or Reuniting the Family and absolutely not that mission where you walk into a building, sit at a laptop and click a button before leaving. Mission over.

Because honestly collecting a bunch of stuff hidden carefully in a game world is more fun to me than being told to run up and down in a restricted area to get a cut scene. :P

(Note: I picked out some of the worst GTA V missions to be a silly billy. There are better than this). It's telling though that any time Rockstar asks you to take a vantage point and use a sniper in their games, they put a yellow circle around where you are asked to stand. Because open world sandbox...?

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GTA 5 is just not a difficult game for me. :/ The cop meter is only sometimes ever a real problem and only ever a problem when it starts at a high rating.

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So I don't like gameplay? I mean I spent a lot of time (and money) studying game design and development as part of my college education. I like gameplay. I just don't enjoy GTA V as much as BoTW and that's okay. I'm not going to state that those who have differing opinions like gameplay any less...

Does it need to translate to tangible rewards? In an actual sandbox, player behaviour and solutions to problems tend to be so unpredictable developers can never really tie anything to tangible rewards (not to mention, tangible rewards for accomplishing X and Y are detrimental to a sandbox experience, the player should be setting their own goals). The scenarios are incredibly simplistic in GTA, I seriously hope you arent implying otherwise. You got a point on AI, but the deficiencies in the AI are more than made up for by other issues.

In most sandboxes, the goals you set are personal. That is a definiting trait of the genre. Being able to create your own shortcuts using the game mechanics alone (not even glitching), is a testament to how capable the sandboxy mechanics of BotW are. They are nowhere near the likes of Dwarf Fortress, but above mediocrity such as GTA or Saints Row.

Pedestrians do run when you go on a rampage. But they are little more than a decoration. Little more meaningful to the gameplay than Critter found in WarCraft 3.

I'm not exactly sure whether you understand what sandbox means.

Its not antiquated, Just because you believe that doesn't make it true. Its got different mechanics where animations matter. FOR INSANCE. Star citizen is moving in that direction where movement is tied to animations. Many shooters are the opposite where the movement is detached from animations and allows for clean movement but it also makes everything float.

They are not bad, they just aren't as easy as gears of war but its also not designed to be a pure shooter or intended you to purely shoot.

More missions that used the cop system would have been great. Like a mentioned, a mission like Trash Truck is actually an effective use of the open world but not all missions play to those strengths. If memory serves, the majority don't. Unless I bluntly give rise to a kill rampage, the fleeing pedestrians (who barely contribute anything other than visually) and cops just don't come. The problem too is that unless the cops start at the 3-star rating, they're incredibly easy to lose which means that unless you are:

1. Purposefully trying to get cops to chase you

or

2. A mission dumps a high star-rating on you.

The cops too are not a bother.

Citizens are there for 2 reasons, they get in the way while driving (in and out of cars) and can cause stars. So cops are a direct response to sloppy play most of the time. And sloppy position means your prone to fleeing civilians in cars. An ongoing situation in gta actually has feed back loops in the action and a lot of dynamics.

Cops are not a bother if you keep moving, and avoid getting your wanted level up, ie driving better.

The Korok seeds have a loop of 1. Engage with your map to seek out interesting looking locations 2. Find a korok puzzle and solve it (takes a very small amount of time) 3. Use these to expand your inventory is a more valuable engagement with the world for me than trying to get cops to chase me for no reason other than to shoot stuff without any actual benefit to the game-loop. I do think the interactivity is a bit shallow in GTA V for me. :/

There are cool nuances like if you stand close to a stranger for long, they'll call the cops and the attention to detail in the world itself is excellent. It's an excellent simulation! But it doesn't make for much in the way of fun gameplay experiences for me. I also don't agree that there is much to do with the mechanics other than again: kill enough people to get more cops to follow you so that you can kill as much stuff until you die. You don't get anything out of doing it. You might have a fun time but you also just lose money and ammo doing it...

Again i understand the point of korok seeds. The rewards have diminishing rewards. And do not provide meaning interactions with the game world outside of finding them.

The inventory management is also ONLY shields/swords/bows which aren't as useful to hoard as items. There is a serious limit to usefulness, and the korok sees are manly about the experience in finding them. And none of them have very dynamic solutions.

Just because you can't be creative with this game doesn't mean the mechanics don't exist. My point is the situations are more complex because of the feedback system with the cops, they become more random.

There are no complex mechanics in botw, they are all direct cause/effect situations that do not permeate a wider sequence of events.

Well GTA 5 sometimes has meaty side missions. Sometimes it's quite bad. (see I disagree with you. I think those ideas are varied enough such that they act as a difference-in-kind to the core game loop but never commands the core game loop which is very much in exploring, discovering and expanding. I think these ideas are as long as they needed to be to get their point across. As soon as you figure out how to navigate the Lost Woods, you don't need to push that any further than the solution permits. I do feel there are areas where this could have been improved but not in the examples you are providing. which I strain is awful). Ditto BoTW which has bad side quests too. I think you're completely missing the point of the sandbox though and GTA 5's meat largely being confined to linear, narrative driven side missions is not a healthy use of a sandbox nor an open world. Certainly not as much as I feel BoTW succeeds by comparison thanks in part to the language of the world and its collectibles locations. Because 'Misko, The Great Bandit' side quest being a simple example of how to use an open world to design a quest makes much of the side quests of GTA 5's open world less prevalent. Again more cops. Harder cops would be great. :) Not tennis, golf, running up and down in a desert (That's the aforementioned Espilon Mission). Not cut-scenes nor driving a fork lift in a dock. Not asking you to buy masks or Reuniting the Family and absolutely not that mission where you walk into a building, sit at a laptop and click a button before leaving. Mission over.

I mean not all things are great but your upset about running a lot in a game that doesn't focus much on running and glorifying a game that you'll spend the vast majority of time running/climbing or just generally traversing.

Also misko isn't a quest. In a game about finding things, the civs in this game provide literally one role, to provide hints/clues to find things. Some get "named" quests, some don't. It makes little difference, you got a hint to find something, I found the treasure before finding the quest. There is literally nothing of value added by the quest givers existence apart from a cleverly disguised hinting system. So no, its not a way to structure quests better than GTA.

Because honestly collecting a bunch of stuff hidden carefully in a game world is more fun than being told to run up and down in a restricted area to get a cut scene. :P

(Note: I picked out some of the worst GTA V missions to be a silly billy. There are better than this). It's telling though that any time Rockstar asks you to take a vantage point and use a sniper in their games, they put a yellow circle around where you are asked to stand. Because open world sandbox...?

Right because the alternative is pointing out exactly where the enemies are, then you have the problem we've been talking about already, the tank becomes the remedy for all problems. Guiding the player to the roof where he'll be able to find the enemy is one way to get them in position. They also have, here is a target situations, bring a tank if you'd like.

So I don't like gameplay? I'm throwing not going to throw the 'studied game development and design' in college card but I like gameplay. I just don't enjoy GTA V as much as BoTW and that's okay. I'm not going to state that those who have differing opinions like gameplay any less..

You really have to ignore a lot of what GTA5 brings to the table to say botw is definitively a better sandbox game though. Thats my problem with your argument. They both bring different mechanics and different ways to express yourself in gameplay. My point is they are more equal, what gta lacks in total freedom it shines over the simplistic nature of botw's sand box.

Also i'm saying is gta5 is ultimately a better game because of the more meaty situations, more feedback loops, more dynamic and evolving game play situations, better narrative, better character development, interesting things to find... just because the game doesn't allow you to approach everything the way you want doesn't diminish from some of the dynamic elements of how a lot of missions can play out. Some are strict, some are not.

You can climb, and that's about it. Otherwise, its just a time sink with none of the patented Zelda charm.

@waahahah: But so many portions of the missions to revolve around shooting people in shooting arenas using those mechanics which, in my opinion, don't function as well as other TPS games. Highlighted in the fact that an auto-aim is turned on by default that solves the aiming for you. :/

The feedback loop is a tad weak though. You knock over a civilian and depending on certain variables, you'll get a star. Drive up the side of a mountain and you lose the star, if you're in the urban areas, you can weave into alleys to avoid their detectors. It's not hard and it's not a very impacting feedback loop. It's there but it's not very strong. You would have to be extremely clumsy for it to instantiate a loop that derives something really substantial. :P

I don't really like BoTW's long-term feedback loop either. The more shrines you complete, the harder the enemies become. They never become hard enough though and the influence is so long-term that you have to be playing the game for a while to actually notice it. The white enemies should come way sooner and there should be an additional tier on top of them.

Misko is a quest. It appears in your quest log. Source but the quest, when initiated if you haven't found the treasure of course (freedom artifact actually at odds with linear progression. Happens quite a bit in BoTW sadly) is still actually using that map in a side quest.

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I think we're running around in circles with one another a bit though. We just don't agree, is all. I hold firm that BoTW is a better example of a sandbox than GTA V, nor do I feel it's a better game - at least not to my tastes. Granted, I don't hold narrative and character development in high regard. Just because GTA has more focus on it, doesn't mean it's still good and I'd rather spend that time playing the game or getting any form of gameplay reward instead of a cut-scene as a reward for side quests. Personally - everyone is going to differ there.

I think we hold too firm a position in our preferences to come to any agreement. I mean I like GTA V (I bought it twice!) but I prefer BoTW. I still haven't been given an example of a dynamic GTA V mission though. I can't think of one off the top of my head.

@kmp: I love you too.

Most tps games have a level of auto aim to help a player on consoles.... your opinion is wrong they function differently for specific purposes. Functionality its not broken either it would be hard to prove that. It wasn't designed as a run and gun tps so approaching it like one isn't going to work and comparing it to run and gun tps's is useless.

Condiser RE7, by your measure its inferior to all other FPS's games because its mechanically slower and clunkier. Without considering the gameplay implications you could view it that way. You could also be wrong when you understand the why its functionally clunkier so your a super human soldier or feel like one. Cops can easily tear you apart in number and the chunkiness is designed specifically around knowing you can't just point and click everyone done. Functionally the game is made to make you feel less powerful which makes the cops harder to address if your stuck on foot (remember this is primarily a car game)

The feedback loop is a tad weak though. You knock over a civilian and depending on certain variables, you'll get a star. Drive up the side of a mountain and you lose the star, if you're in the urban areas, you can weave into alleys to avoid their detectors. It's not hard and it's not a very impacting feedback loop. It's there but it's not very strong. You would have to be extremely clumsy for it to instantiate a loop that derives something really substantial. :P

I think your missing 90% of the gameplay in this assumption. Stars create cops, cops create messiness, messiness adds stars. The more more messy the situation the harder it is to keep under control. Its an ACTUAL feedback loop, nothing of which exists in zelda.

Misko is a quest. It appears in your quest log. Source but the quest, when initiated if you haven't found the treasure of course (freedom artifact actually at odds with linear progression. Happens quite a bit in BoTW sadly) is still actually using that map in a side quest.

I did not say it wasn't a quests. I said the questing system is mostly supurflous and a basically a glorifed hint system. They do not add gameplay really they just add a system where the player can look for something a bit easier. That goes for most interactions with NPS's, some go into a quest log, some don't.

I think we're running around in circles with one another a bit though. We just don't agree, is all. I hold firm that BoTW is a better example of a sandbox than GTA V, nor do I feel it's a better game - at least not to my tastes. Granted, I don't hold narrative and character development in high regard. Just because GTA has more focus on it, doesn't mean it's still good and I'd rather spend that time playing the game or getting any form of gameplay reward instead of a cut-scene as a reward for side quests. Personally - everyone is going to differ there.

I think we hold too firm a position in our preferences to come to any agreement. I mean I like GTA V (I bought it twice!) but I prefer BoTW. I still haven't been given an example of a dynamic GTA V mission though. I can't think of one off the top of my head.

I never said anything about dynamic missions, I'm talking about dynamic gameplay mechanics. Both botw and zelda have different types of dynamic gameplay where GTA adds structure, complexity and narrative through missions which come in both rigid and flexible. For instance some assignationmissions allow for a lot of freedom to roll a tank up for some scenarios. Some do not.

There are no dyamic missions in BOTW either though. There are dynamic mechanics but the missions are all the same, solve a puzzle by getting x to do y to get to z. The mechanics behind the getting x to do y can be manipulated but again its overly simplistic scenarios and maybe skipping to get to z.

The ability to buy grenades and stuff has similar implications to do things the developer did not intend. Like sticking sticky grenades on a car diving out of it and sending it into a group of enemies. Again there are mechanics you can abuse in GTA that exist that make missions more dynamic.

I'm at least recognizing that zelda can be dynamic, your basically trying to ignore what GTA has too offer which is why we are running in circles. Like zelda I solved the puzzle, its done and over. The situation with the c4 + car? Now I might be out in the open with no vehicle close by and a bunch of scattered enemies or more coming from another direction. The mechanics don't seem as cool but leave you with more experiences that change over time because there are feed back loops or choices permeate during action sequences until the end.

My points have always been the bigger world BOTW doesn't have anything really meaty to offer players with those mechanics, IE little puzzles to solve outside of something more iterating to do. While GTA may end up being more strict in some ways its gameplay always seems to have more to offer in terms of how an ongoing situation can changed based on poor/good decisions and equipment available. It may not be as free but its better than tons of one and done moments. And I still consider many of the solutions very similar because the puzzles all are very similar.

Sandboxes at a basic level are being able to roam and complete objectives as you see fit. GTA falls under that. There is also the "halo" sandbox where its more about just dynamic elements during game play which GTA also falls under. There is also immersive sims where the sandbox has a lot of systems in play... gta has some system driven game play with cops/car mechanics.

BOTW has more system driven gameplay IE immersive sim but I don't feel like the game world persistence/reactive ai fall under that. You can't set fire to to a forest and it stays burnt down. GTA/BOTW i wouldn't consider full immersive sim sandboxes.

@waahahah:There's auto-aim and then there's doing the aiming for you. :P

But no, I see where you're coming from. RE4 is a perfect example too. RE4's enemies and levels are all designed around its mechanics but it's compelling because of it.

GTA 5's mechanics only give rise, from my experience of the game, being a shooting gallery. So the approach to the mechanics give rise to a less compelling game to me.

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Are you sure I'm missing something or am I just not bad enough at the game to let the star rating rise above 2 which is really easy to get away from? :P

Like I said, BoTW also has a rubbish negative feedback loop that is long-term and not harsh enough. More shrines completed = harder enemies appearing in the world but it has its own problems. Similarly, neither feedback loops really scale quickly enough to make the game difficult. Most of BoTW's feedback loops are positive ones though whereby you get something out of the loop rather than lose something.

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"I did not say it wasn't a quest."

One post earlier:

"Also misko isn't a quest."

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"I never said anything about dynamic missions"

a few posts earlier:

"GTA has additional side activities you can partake in, plenty of systems in play (cop/car mechanics), lots of character development cinematic and during gameplay, rigid + open dynamic mission structure"

I know what you are saying though but those instances are not in large enough quantities. Take Fresh Meat. That games opens with you on the advantage. You can drive into the parking lot of the factory and use the explosives on the car like you said to kill a total of 2 enemies standing outside. All the other enemies are confined within the meat factory so you have no other option but to go inside and initiate the cover-based shooting stuff. It's just not big enough and frequent enough for me... I feel it could learn a bit from some of the multiplayer missions. :/

There aren't dynamic missions in BoTW either but many of the missions you do can be solved with those mechanics because BoTW rarely removes the options you have for killing your enemies. For the purpose of comparison - You can never not drive a car and you can never not fly a helicopter. All the mechanics in the game stay with you as valid options in combat.

Again, I feel like we are just going around and around. You love GTA V, I love BoTW and it's great that this hobby can facilitate the tastes of both - even if opposing opinions can't quite understand where one another are coming from.

Nope. What you described is freeroam. Many sandboxes out there dont even let you roam. Some dont even have any predefined objectives.

world interactivity and freedom.

GTA and halo are both considered different types of a sandbox, and immersive sims. If you don't like it take it up with the industry.

Halo isn't a sandbox, as much as that term has been used way too loosely to describe a game's possibility space and many mechanics working together. Beyond that Halo's fairly rigid as far as what you can do, and while it has more options than most fps games these days, it's plenty straight forward as an action game. It just isn't railroaded the way other fps games are.

again its sandbox gameplay, I understand its linear levels but you can express similar dynamic evolving gameplay that is associated with ai/combat over a period of time. This sort of gameplay doesn't exist in zelda, the AI is too basic and there isn't that much dynamicness to the way they react to the player.

The ai is similarly bad with GTA but usually the dynamics is based on the introduction of new elements during combat.

Bingo. RE4's brand of you can't move n shoot, dictates how the enemies move n work, and how the encounters are designed in that game entirely. It's why the enemies have physical weapons as opposed to having guns of their own (sans chaingun dude), and why the bosses work the way they do. Rockstar's game is any other cover shooter as far as its core gameplay, except the aiming is busted as **** so it's overly reliant on auto-lock on.

With the same issues n way enemies n encounters work in any other cover shooter. So it's not even one of those "The game is built around this" deals, it just highlights how simple n easy the overall gameplay is. Same way Red Dead Redemption was. It's a joke.

Nobody considers Halo to be a sandbox. At least not anymore.

Sandbox has been used too loosely. Much like the term, emergent gameplay. A term that practically lost its meaning when devs and gamers started abusing it.

Edit: And industry...

Just look at hte mmo industry. They have no difficulties differentiating the two. And as it happens, if GTA was an mmorpg, it would fall under themepark mmo. Rather than sandbox mmo like Ultima Online or Eve Online.

Yeah I totally agree.

Waa has a different preference but it's not for me. I don't see the shooting as designed positively around the auto-lock or the slow movement. I see it as a negative that I'm sticking to a single position behind a wall or pillar, looking down the sights and waiting for an enemy to pop up so the game can aim for me and I can pull the trigger. It's not compelling at all to me.

In combat? No disagreement, but I'd also argue that brand of dynamism isn't exactly there in a Deus Ex either, yet one would be stupid to argue Deus Ex doesn't give you options. Albeit it's a bit overpraised, to me, when I use the term "sandbox" I strictly like layers of options to these open world spaces.

Because to me there is a massive difference between what Zelda n MGSV try to do with their gameplay versus a Watch Dogs, Sleeping Dogs, Ass Creed, The Witcher. I'd make the same argument that for all of Bethesda's sins (IE their gameplay sucks, habitually) their games make more of an effort to be a sandbox game, and less what most open world games are. Which is more or less that linear/corridor game, but it takes place in a big ass hub.

Zelda's combat being simplistic n shallow wouldn't overrule the sheer amount of freedom you have in a given space be it the shrines, the dungeon, or its overworld where you are left to handle shit as you see fit. It's more in line with how a game like Crysis, Stalker or yeah the immersive sims do business then it is the other open world games people want to pretend it's just like, but by any objective measure they'd be way off base.

Rockstar post GTA4, hasn't really made a game like that, varied game in the case of GTAV sure, but a good chunk of the missions don't really give you much to work with. The major exceptions are like this one mill area in the woods where you can use all 3 of the main characters on the fly, beyond that the heists just have you doing an order of operations thing like we learning pemdas in algebra.

Halo, the term sandbox to me has its lineage with how Bungie talked about their gameplay. Because part of it was just about the many individual choices the player can make at a given time if the scenario is well designed. It's why that first game actually has a great use of the 2 weapon system, where as a lot of its sequels and its imitators have always done it worse. Too much bloat on the weapon roster.

Wtf do you think auto aiming does... it aims for you because the subtle movements are hard to do with a joystick, its either snap to on aim or snap to when close enough... Prior to gta4 it was more run and gun.

GTA 5's mechanics only give rise, from my experience of the game, being a shooting gallery. So the approach to the mechanics give rise to a less compelling game to me.

Well my experience was similar in zelda? Does that mean I can dismiss all the diversity? (I'm not btw). Based on my experience and my observations and plethora of other people's examples I dont' agree that your version of extensive diversity really applies to moving a ball 8 different ways.

"I did not say it wasn't a quest."

One post earlier:

"Also misko isn't a quest."

I explained what I meant in the same context. Stop cherry picking.

Are you sure I'm missing something or am I just not bad enough at the game to let the star rating rise above 2 which is really easy to get away from? :P

Like I said, BoTW also has a rubbish negative feedback loop that is long-term and not harsh enough. More shrines completed = harder enemies appearing in the world but it has its own problems. Similarly, neither feedback loops really scale quickly enough to make the game difficult. Most of BoTW's feedback loops are positive ones though whereby you get something out of the loop rather than lose something.

It's never just the cops though... missing the point of the larger gameplay mechanics again.

And I never said its about

"I never said anything about dynamic missions"

a few posts earlier:

"GTA has additional side activities you can partake in, plenty of systems in play (cop/car mechanics), lots of character development cinematic and during gameplay, rigid + open dynamic mission structure"

making the game purely difficult, its about a more dynamic gameplay which you the player repsonds to (feed back loops).

Again taking things too literally, I misspoke one sentance and ignoring the rest of the context you are trying to counter a mistake because you missed my entire argument about dynamic gamplay which is what I've been describing.

I know what you are saying though but those instances are not in large enough quantities. Take Fresh Meat. That games opens with you on the advantage. You can drive into the parking lot of the factory and use the explosives on the car like you said to kill a total of 2 enemies standing outside. All the other enemies are confined within the meat factory so you have no other option but to go inside and initiate the cover-based shooting stuff. It's just not big enough and frequent enough for me... I feel it could learn a bit from some of the multiplayer missions. :/

I mean in a shooting/driving game you can only do so much within a confined space. Most of the mechanics are designed for an open area. You can drive in there with a motorcycle though... Or pick of people visible in windows... toss grenades in... Basically I've argued that it has both already so pointing out a stricture misison is pointless. Like one of the assination missions start out in the open and you basically can set up any way you like and then if you fail a chase starts actual dynamic mission as well, failure to kill a person leads to car chase, not super dynamic but there is a larger cause and effect during the mission.

Again, I feel like we are just going around and around. You love GTA V, I love BoTW and it's great that this hobby can facilitate the tastes of both - even if opposing opinions can't quite understand where one another are coming from.

We are going around, your not exactly really contending my argument though. You keep saying zelda has a sandox and things can be found that have more purpose. My points are the sandbox is too simple and the things that are found have a rapid drop off in real usefulness early game leaving you with mostly the experience of the journey which GTA5 provides to some extent ontop of sand box and ontop of more structured and missions to partake in... on top of narrative and character development.

It doesn't have gadgets either like mgs5 so again more limited in tools but still ultimately has dynamic gameplay when its suited to a mission or working within the sandbox more and systems that play in that gameplay. Like I understand that like mgs5 botw provide more tools it just doesn't provide complex problems for a player to really solve. Its all simple cause->effect and you have a bunch of resources to get the desired effect... Its ultimately one of the best survival sandboxes but as far as action sandboxes its its a bit meh, and as far as story/narratives go, its the bare minimum.

@waahahah: ah no. The auto lock and auto aim of GTA is way over compensating than typical FPS or TPS games on consoles.

Those genres don't typically aim for you. Gta 5 is basically aiming for you. I like that it gives you options but none of them really help the mechanics out from being below the par because of the movement

I'm sorry for taking your comments too literally. Could you try not to use literal language on non literal points? It's confusing for me.

I mean,I disagree with you. I have contended your opinions if you re-read my posts it's just that your preference of what is substance in a game differs from mine. (I really really really don't care about stories in video games nor the length of a task.)

What do you mean by 'early drop off rate of usefulness."?

This is correct.

My points are the sandbox is too simple

It is no Dwarf Fortress, Liberal Crime Squad, EVE Online or Crusader Kings 2. But it does just enough to be a sandbox. The whole world on its own isnt particulary sandboxxy. But the scenarios you are put into, give the player enough freedom in how to tackle them to pass. It certainly is more complex than GTA5.

and the things that are found have a rapid drop off in real usefulness early game leaving you with mostly the experience of the journey which GTA5 provides to some extent ontop of sand box and ontop of more structured and missions to partake in...

What do you mean by things? Items? Techniques?

Being able to shave of minutes, of playtime and skip large sections of a dungeon or shrine or other requirements is far from no real usefulness. As for items, loot and rewards... stuff like that is 100% irrelevant to sandbox design. Sandboxes have never been about rewarding the player (that is what the freeroam type of game is for), and providing carrots for them. The point of a sandbox is to allow players to find creative solutions to problems that arise and/or express themselves in a fictional world.

on top of narrative and character development.

Which is detrimental to sandbox game design. Would Jagged Alliance 2 be a better game if you had to follow a narrative before you could go to Diedrianna? Of course not. The point of a sandbox is that the story is your story, not a the game designer's story.

It doesn't have gadgets either like mgs5 so again more limited in tools but still ultimately has dynamic gameplay when its suited to a mission or working within the sandbox more and systems that play in that gameplay. Like I understand that like mgs5 botw provide more tools it just doesn't provide complex problems for a player to really solve. Its all simple cause->effect and you have a bunch of resources to get the desired effect... Its ultimately one of the best survival sandboxes but as far as action sandboxes its its a bit meh, and as far as story/narratives go, its the bare minimum.

Those runes are what hte gadgets in MGS5 are, some weapons would also qualify. And when you beat dungeons you gain access to new abilities too. Venom Snake has access to more tools than Link though. I will give you that much.

@Maroxad: Snake makes Link jelly.

Poor Link. :(

@Maroxad: actually I don't think his comment sbout story was to say that it's what makes GTA a better sandbox, he just meant a better overall game.

I don't think it's much of a metric for me. Story is near the bottom of the list of things I care about. It's something I can enjoy but not something that I value over something else.

Because witcher 3 having great characters doesn't make it a better game than Tetris to me.

To be fair to Link, Link's tools are far more apt for travelling whereas Snake's tools are more apt for sneaking (and capturing animals).

You can tone it down... basically its optional for people that play more on the car side, I play with free aim so your basically wrong about the aiming, its optional for those that want it. Its also optional in the online portion, and optional to have a more traditional aim assists. Options are not bad so objectively you are wrong here. If you feel like the aiming is stiff you don't have enough sensitivity on your joystick likely.

I mean given the context of my arguments it should be clear what I meant by dynamic missions like in immersive sims, We've been describing dynamic missions that within that game play things can be altered or manipulated outside of the scope of the solution. I'm not sure if you noticed that? So taking one statement that out of context is again cherry picking. I don't feel as though I've done that to you.

You haven't shown that the systems really move beyond a simple interaction of how to move objects or a few other physics related concepts, which is the majority of the flexibility in gameplay... the more grandiose adventature is broken into tons of simple one shot puzzles and other cool moments but really has no complex structure beyond that in terms of gameplay. What makes zelda fun and amazing is the game world, the journey, and some of the survival elements. The sandbox has always seemed a secondary kind of nifty interaction with some of the environment but none of it equates to major gameplay in a significant way. Its unlike mgs5 where it gives you a bunch of tools to do something then gives you escalating scenarios in which to use those tools and ability to really make them work. Solving a bunch of really simply puzzles with really simple physics mechanics... your really think thats the major appeal to playing this game? The ability to go out of my way to get a resource that allows me to save 30 seconds getting a ball to its pedestal? Or the ability to carry 10 more sword because i found 40 korok seeds? Or the fact that setting fire to my surroundings accidentally is that it adds an updraft, but being able to shoot tires of pedestrians driving by to create running road blocks isn't an equally trivial but interesting mechanic? Like there isn't grass everywhere so we should dismiss this which is what your trying to do pointing out a couple of missions played out in tight spaces, that we now can kind of ignore the rest of the game that involves open area to play in.

So going back to my original idea, I'm not making a detailed analysis mechanic for mechanic but just merely saying they both offer something different to the sandbox experience. Neither is truly different when you get to the details, they are both fundamentally nearly perfectly crafted games but one just offers more diversity in narrative and scenarios while one offers a very somber experience in exploration with some cool physics in some of the more trivial aspects of the gameplay.

@Maroxad: aha but what about the neat little walker thingy?

Okay no his tools don't let him travel across bodies of water, glide or possibly even fly but Snake has still got some nifty stuff at his disposal.

@waahahah: I have already acknowledged you can turn it off. We had this discussion already. :)

You can turn it off, then I said it exposes how bad the aiming is. You felt it wasnt bad and the game is designed around the physics based movement and I responded that much of if only leads to shooting gallery gameplay.

Back to Fresh Meat. That mission it littered with advantageous cover where you can pop enemies off from safety without any trouble at all. I got the impression it was meant to be a power trip. There see even parts where enemies stand precariously close to environmental hazards like meat grinders.

Eventide island; it strips you of your gear. Char completed the last orb and killed the Hinox with scraps of weapons and last ditch effort bombs. He used everything at his disposal to kill him. I climbed to the top of a cliff, glided onto his belly while he slept,snatched the orb from around his neck and ran for it while he awoke and flung tree trunks at me while I ducked between trees for cover.

Is that a fair sandbox example within a side quest for you? That's only one orb on eventide island. There were two more.

It has more interesting and direct tools than GTA 5 but has far more simpler problems to solve usually.

What do you mean by things? Items? Techniques?

Being able to shave of minutes, of playtime and skip large sections of a dungeon or shrine or other requirements is far from no real usefulness. As for items, loot and rewards... stuff like that is 100% irrelevant to sandbox design. Sandboxes have never been about rewarding the player (that is what the freeroam type of game is for), and providing carrots for them. The point of a sandbox is to allow players to find creative solutions to problems that arise and/or express themselves in a fictional world.

Things as in tangable rewards... if your going to interject in the conversation at least follow it. So bag space/health/stamina upgrades. His argument is that things mattered more than the actual journey itself which gta5 offers some clever things to find and provides its own journey if you choose to partake in examining areas of los santos.

Sandboxes can be a couple of different ideas though, dynamic action is one such sandbox where the elements tend to be introduced sporadically and can have a lot of diversity in outcome. Its not purely the being able to approach a problem 100 different ways. As i pointed out there tends to be two lineages of sandboxes, one that is more of a game play loop, one is more of how you approach a problem.

Which is detrimental to sandbox game design. Would Jagged Alliance 2 be a better game if you had to follow a narrative before you could go to Diedrianna? Of course not. The point of a sandbox is that the story is your story, not a the game designer's story.

My thoughts on gta 5 is it interweaves structure with sandbox really well to make a well paced game that pushes you into free to do what you will scenarios as really cool cinematic set pieces. What makes it a better game though is ultimatately building something more meaningful into the world. I really enjoyed botw but it had too many short lived aspects that they could have made half the game and developed some of these concepts more fully and pushed the phsyics/survival mechanics a little bit more. The sandbox is fun but its really about the journey in botw, these mechanics wouldn't hold up without the journey if it didn't provide some more intriguing settings to really sink into.

Those runes are what hte gadgets in MGS5 are, some weapons would also qualify. And when you beat dungeons you gain access to new abilities too. Venom Snake has access to more tools than Link though. I will give you that much.

Right its not the tools themselves that are really the problem is that the mechanics are woefully unnecessary. Its sort of like the concept where the silenced pistol can take on 100% of mgs5 playing stealthy and although mechanics are superfluous. But the tools open up gameplay options. Where I think zelda fails is many ways to approach is good, it just doesn't give you a massive complex of people and things in it to manipulate, there aren't networks of guards that when caught shit really gets out of hand where the tools can do some really fun things. The interactions are very small in unique in these small puzzles, its like getting the tank in mgs5 and always facing a compound of 1-5 guards. What it boils down to is having 100 ways to move a ball a few feet or getting over something. At least thats the way I feel with zelda. Its no immersive sim, its not hitman, its no mgs5, its no gta (gta5 is probably the most 'cinematic' of the gtas...). Its like what happens if you stretch a concept of 100 miles and forget to really escalate those aspects.

But again I think its intentionally by design. The 'somber' journey wouldn't work with scaling it up. If you partook in the events 100 years ago I think the missions and tone would have to change and the complexity of the struggle would probably accommodate some of these sandbox mechanics a little more and add more interesting game play because of that.

The aiming is bad because you might be aiming at people flying by in helicopters with a joystick, its not bad because of game mechanics its bad because of the control scheme. Thats the thing you missed about my argument... or ignored. So bringing it back up saying there is aim assist is pointless. It also doesn't show the aiming retical while in cover which is really the only major difference with a 'normal' tps where you can line up a shot before peeking to shoot.

Back to Fresh Meat. That mission it littered with advantageous cover where you can pop enemies off from safety without any trouble at all. I got the impression it was meant to be a power trip. There see even parts where enemies stand precariously close to environmental hazards like meat grinders.

Or if you have a heavy machine gun run through gunning everyone down, tossing grenades all over the place. Again you have different tools that allow you to play more aggressively.

Eventide island; it strips you of your gear. Char completed the last orb and killed the Hinox with scraps of weapons and last ditch effort bombs. He used everything at his disposal to kill him. I climbed to the top of a cliff, glided onto his belly while he slept,snatched the orb from around his neck and ran for it while he awoke and flung tree trunks at me while I ducked between trees for cover.

Is that a fair sandbox example within a side quest for you? That's only one orb on eventide island. There were two more.

Ok never said you couldn't do that. And I pointed out eventide island is one of the better parts of the game already, I just wish it was used more or some of the mechanics to get you to have to fight some enemies or w/e. My point was that most of the game doesn't present missions like eventide island and you just find shit, and the wider variety of missions ultimately are a hinting system. Its great that you cited an example I used as a high point for the game because you clearly wouldn't have used this if you either read my arguments or had a better example of a intriguing mission.

I'm sure there are a few more examples but the other 98% of the game represent a different experience really, about the journey and just taking it all in.

Ha, nice.

I came across Eventide very early (my 2nd day on the game). Only had 3 hearts and low stamina. At first I kept trying to prep for that fight by getting all the good weapons on the island (like the one hidden in that toxic swamp in the woods), but I just couldn't hack it against the Hinox in a straight up fight.

Eventually I got creative, surrounded him with chu jelly while he was sleeping and laid something metal next him. I also gathered the metal boxes and just waited. As soon as the storm came in, he got struck by lighting, jelly ignited to add damage and I started smacking him around with the boxes. It worked, but I died shortly afterwards.

On my successful run I just shot him in the eye, grabbed the orb when he bent down and made a run for it.

Later I read that the ingredients for a heart count boosting food were on the island, so I could have had 20 hearts, but I didn't know until after the fact.

@waahahah:But the control scheme is the same as any TPS. You have left trigger to aim down sights, right trigger to shoot, aim with right analog, move with left. Again, the aiming is bad because the movement is clunky and rigid particularly in enclosed areas. It's the same issue other games with similar movements like Witcher 3 has. It's just not accommodating to kinetic action which ends up stuffing you behind cover in GTA's case.

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Sure I mean grenades aren't anything new in a TPS. It's standard by now. A mini gun is great and it assumes that you don't get hit because you're going to expose yourself by doing that. Might be just as easy to hide behind cover. It might not be a better solution. It is an option though! Not sure if it's a better one and with the way GTA handles movement, it might be far more dangerous.

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There was really no possible way they could have used Eventide more. The whole point is to strip you of your gear and force you to start from scratch but under harsher circumstances. It reaches its climax when you have to fight a really tough enemy (The Hinnox). There is nothing more they could have done without it effectively becoming a reset of the whole game...

There are lots of fun quests to do in BoTW

• Master of the Wind has you blowing up rocks to carve a wind trail to carry you through a wind course to open up the shrine.
• Trial of Thunder has you seeking orbs in a constant thunder storm whereby you need to figure out how to move orbs to the top of a platform that is too high for you throw them up and metallic weapons being a dangerous option.
• Tarrey Town has you going about the other regions of the world to recruit members to a brand new town which you watch being built resident by resident
• And then stumbling upon this is just the raddest thing. This was so cool for me because I was just exploring and came across this quest spontaneously. The scale of that made me realize that the world is definitely worth the effort getting lost in.
• Trial of the cliff takes place in a maze of exceptionally tall walls.
• Trial of Second Sight has you using magnesis as a means of finding the path you need to take by searching out metallic objects within the area.

This a small set of them outside of the fun riddles and scraps of information quests which I really like in BoTW. Especially the poems that ask you to do stuff like, say sit in the nip under the blood moon.

@ConanTheStoner: Hahaha very clever! I didn't think of that. Actually, I discovered later on that metal boxes could be swung around as a projectile. My solution was a bit of a dangerous one too. Obviously carrying the orb means you can't sprint so I'm there trying to avoid projectile tree trunks and octorocs shooting at me. I eventually lost the Hinnox's trail by hiding behind a hill... like a coward...

Actually while moving in ADS you can play it like a legitimate tps game, moving backwards moving forward/back/left/right you move slower but normally without the animations of turning potentially get away. For instance if you stop ADS and turn around your character will physically turn and run but you get the speed difference.

I mean your wrong about how the movement works or why you need the aim assist in the first place. The aim assist is literally because of the controller. The other aspect is the run is bound to something that you have to press and hold making it a run or gun situation more than most tps's. But the slower pace is not BAD mechanics. Sorry. Your wrong here. They are different than a run and gun and its intentional to make the pacing of the fire fights slower so its easier to get overwhelmed by lots of cops making stand offs more about positioning and equipment.

Sure I mean grenades aren't anything new in a TPS. It's standard by now. A mini gun is great and it assumes that you don't get hit because you're going to expose yourself by doing that. Might be just as easy to hide behind cover. It might not be a better solution. It is an option though! Not sure if it's a better one and with the way GTA handles movement, it might be far more dangerous.

Ok but we are talking about tps mechanics in a vehicle game. I don't get what your getting at, we have options and sometimes we don't. I've ackknowledged the point of times

There are lots of fun quests to do in BoTW

• Master of the Wind has you blowing up rocks to carve a wind trail to carry you through a wind course to open up the shrine.
• Trial of Thunder has you seeking orbs in a constant thunder storm whereby you need to figure out how to move orbs to the top of a platform that is too high for you throw them up and metallic weapons being a dangerous option.
• Tarrey Town has you going about the other regions of the world to recruit members to a brand new town which you watch being built resident by resident
• And then stumbling upon this is just the raddest thing. This was so cool for me because I was just exploring and came across this quest spontaneously. The scale of that made me realize that the world is definitely worth the effort getting lost in.
• Trial of the cliff takes place in a maze of exceptionally tall walls.
• Trial of Second Sight has you using magnesis as a means of finding the path you need to take by searching out metallic objects within the area.

This a small set of them outside of the fun riddles and scraps of information quests which I really like in BoTW. Especially the poems that ask you to do stuff like, say sit in the nip under the blood moon.

A bunch of one off puzzles.. I guess you really are ignoring my argument.

Like why bring up trial of thunder? I've mentioned multiple multiple times the simplicty in some of the moving balls physics puzzles and there are tons of them. Like WOAH look at this quest where I have to move 3 whole balls, but this time I'm MORE limited... i haven't figured out any alternative ways to do this... oh wait nvm I remember that time with the bombs or that time with the balloon + leaf.

Although the dragon bits are amazing but not necessarily huge gameplay opportunities. In the end you need to get a scale or some resource from them. The mini boss encounter is another one of a kind moment without too much following up in the same way. Again the dragon isn't a quest or huge gameplay but its about the wonder of discovery (ie journey I've been mentioning this entire time).

This is again the problem I have with the sandbox elements, its just enough to get a test in most cases then you move onto the next area without anything really significantly changing. Eventide is still the best example of a multi tiered objective with different levels of difficulty.

There was really no possible way they could have used Eventide more. The whole point is to strip you of your gear and force you to start from scratch but under harsher circumstances. It reaches its climax when you have to fight a really tough enemy (The Hinnox). There is nothing more they could have done without it effectively becoming a reset of the whole game...

Ok, but they could have added more areas like that with multi structured quests with objectives that have to be completed and it actually put significant obstacles in front of you. The majority of what you pointed out can take a few minutes to complete where eventide can be an entire gaming session if your playing for 40 mins.

I get it most things are quick and simple, its not about the the sandbox overtaking the journey. Which is why I still don't see this as being a better sandbox overall then most sandboxes and it's entirely comparable with a series like GTA where it provides a some journey and a lot of narrative, and a lot of structured gameplay scenarios that are more intricate to involve the player more.

Why are the mechanics unnecessary? You do realize AI isnt necessary for a sandbox to work. Zelda is a physics/mechanics oriented sandbox rather than an AI oriented one. Those gadgets in MGS5 are technically speaking unnecessary as well. As I beat every single mission without ever using them. You cannot manipulate the enemies around you all that well, but the objects in the environment? That is where Zelda BotW does a phenomenal job. Hell, in those sequence breaking videos people show, a lot of it is done by manipulating objects in clever ways.

That is why Zelda is a sandbox. MGS5 is a sandbox because of how much you can manipulate the AI, with above average object manipulation (not to the scale of Zelda, but still good). But GTA? Your ability to manipulate the world around you is dismal. Hence why it fails as a sandbox.

Edit: And if you don't understand why the trial of thunder or the isle are so phenomenal, then you don't understand why Thief and similar games worked well. These are examples of more complex problems. Not because of extra balls or whatever, but because they force you to adapt to situations by taking away things you normally take for granted while still maintaining the overall sandboxy, systems driven gameplay. Those are examples of the game having meat. It isnt us ignoring the arguments, it is you.

The other kind of sandbox you are describing is generally known as freeroam. It has very little to do with the actual real world sandboxes. And a lot more in common with a real world theme park for instance. You go into the themepark, pick the rides at your own discretion and then call it a day.

@waahahah: I mean aim assist sure but the lock on? What's the point of the lock on? :P

My assertion that the lock on is there because the mechanics suck is me just being a jerk though. It's me basically saying the mechanics are bad regardless of the settings because again, I've never been overwhelmed by the difficult in GTA. Never ever been overwhelmed by the cops unless I myself set about the rampage to have that many coming for me. Otherwise I've either driven away and hid or I've been at such an advantageous position of cover that the game is really easy. I don't know if I've ever found myself in a scenario where I've been thankful that I found the mechanics slow and clunky because the difficulty was too much because the difficulty was never too much.

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So talking about the third person shooting mechanics in GTA is not a productive conversation because you also drive vehicles in the game? I dunno man... :/

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Ah here come on dude. This is again the argument of length vs. value. Chasing that dragon down the snow mountain is not only memorable but it's also about balancing the use of your bow aim with wind current and aiming for the infection surrounding it is a distinctive challenge. Look at the gameplay content of these side missions in GTA V. Think about them for a second.

The Tape - You follow the paparazzi and then point the reticle at the um... charming people. You take a photo and drive off. You then get chased. This involves you keeping the reticle on the car, compensating for the harsh turns. Not exactly multi-layered.

I Googled then 'Best GTA V Side Missions' to get an example of one the community would consider great and came upon Barry's drug trips. I did these myself. Very memorable. :) What is the gameplay permeating that?

It's a hoard section.

There's no freedom, no use of the open world and no sandbox. Franklin's part had you towing cars though. I guess that counts in using the open world.

I mean I remember these missions now that I'm looking at them. I remember the narrative but I don't remember the gameplay as much. Save for shooting clowns in a drug trip. Who could forget that? I remembered that paparazzi mission but I forgot completely what I actually did in that mission. I totally forgot that video camera part happened - likely because these quests have excellent attention to narrative but not the substance of its gameplay. Or even more likely perhaps is the fact that I played through GTA V around the time it launched and it was so long ago - but then its gameplay content didn't leave much of a lasting impression on me, personally.

I'll remembered Eventide Island not because of the narrative (There was none) but because it struck me as a genuinely unique gameplay experience within the game and had the emergent moment with the Hinnox special to me.

Edit: I was reading on one forum and most agreed that the missions for Nigel and Mrs. Thornhill being top tier. Link for ease.

Edit Edit: Looking back on this though, I think I've summarized with myself what I enjoy about BoTW and what I don't enjoy about GTA V and it always helps me to look at those things so I can find more games I like in future. That's kind of where I stop here. Thank you for being really fair in this conversation though and patient with me.

This argument isn't working, I already explained auto aim is optional and its not because the mechanics suck its because people suck.

Your reiterating my points of either running or finding a better position also. Its difficult to stand your ground in an open setting. I've pointed out multiple times I'm not talking about pure difficulty overall but there is situational difficulty given how characters move in the game and how escalating a scenario can play out. Standing your ground is not easy unless you take up a good position or have hardware that can really take down a lot of cops.

There's no freedom, no use of the open world and no sandbox. Franklin's part had you towing cars though. I guess that counts in using the open world.... So why is that dragon in BoTW so bad again? ;)

I never said its bad, i said its again a point about the journey + experience. Not incredible game play/sandbox opportunities. Similar the tow truck just not nearly as glorious, but the tow truck part builds Franklin's character + backstory through dialog without being a cut scene. And the dragon is really some of the best moments the game has to offer, and lets face it, GTA will never have a dragon.

Ah here come on dude. This is again the argument of length vs. value. Chasing that dragon down the snow mountain is not only memorable but it's also about balancing the use of your bow aim with wind current and aiming for the infection surrounding it is a distinctive challenge. Look at the gameplay content of these side missions in GTA V. Think about them for a second.

The Tape - You follow the paparazzi and then point the reticle at the um... charming people. You take a photo and drive off. You then get chased. This involves you keeping the reticle on the car, compensating for the harsh turns. Not exactly multi-layered.

I Googled then 'Best GTA V Side Missions' to get an example of one the community would consider great and came upon Barry's drug trips. I did these myself. Very memorable. :) What is the gameplay permeating that?

It's a hoard section.

Your talking about the mechanics being too easy in gta then saying the dragon part is hard? WTF? The game freezes for you to take shots in mid air. As awe inspiring as it was and how cool that moment was... it happens once, and super easy. And there are not that many equal parts to that, unless you count shooting arrows at other dragons. Still cool but really doesnt expand the usage of the dragons well. They are just there for you to do your thing to and move on.

And also I didn't say there aren't simple tasks in gta. WTF is the point in pointing them out. I said there aren't enough complex, intricately designed multi layers sequences for the player in zelda. Everything is just there waiting to be found, you find it and you move on. Thats the BIGGEST aspect of botw, the sandbox are a minute and sometimes trivial aspect to that. I liked a lot in botw but I constantly felt like, like the dragon, it was a bit short lived. I had a similar feeling with the sub in gta heist because I thought that was cool, turns out after buying a dock you use the sub to clean toxic waste so you do get more of that experience.

Zelda felt like you were constantly trying to grab a handful of sand in a windstorm, you'd open your fist to take a peek and poof its gone. Then you were off to grab more sand. Its less about length.

I mean I remember these missions now that I'm looking at them. I remember the narrative but I don't remember the gameplay as much. Save for shooting clowns in a drug trip. Who could forget that? I remembered that paparazzi mission but I forgot completely what I actually did in that mission. I totally forgot that video camera part happened - likely because these quests have excellent attention to narrative but not the substance of its gameplay. Or even more likely perhaps is the fact that I played through GTA V around the time it launched and it was so long ago - but then its gameplay content didn't leave much of a lasting impression on me, personally.

I'll remembered Eventide Island not because of the narrative (There was none) but because it struck me as a genuinely unique gameplay experience within the game and had the emergent moment with the Hinnox special to me.

You can say the same for a lot of zelda too. The idea that you didn't do anything cool therefore can't remember is not a good argument. There are probably MANY parts of zelda that just are in passing. Eventide Island/Dragons are MASSIVE highlights in a game that can eat 100's of hours of time. How many hours can you really remember? How many unique moments are that worthy.

The characters are definitly worthy of remembering, and like zelda depending on how things play out you may remember some missions more fondly. Many missions like I mentioned a while ago are filler to keep the user busy and develop characters or the world. There are a lot of similarities between the two.

@waahahah: Ah I just don't agree. :/

I don't think the characters are even that well developed in GTA - never mind that BoTW's character are awful too but GTA spending so much more time doing it only to have so many jarring inconsistencies (Because honestly why would Michael ever do the Epsilon stuff ever? It makes no sense. Michael is so inconsistent). I mean, it's not as though GTA V exists as a good narrative outside of its own medium. Do many video games? Michael and Franklin probably have most in common with the villain/protagonist in Walter White of BB but Walter White is a far better developed character and a more consistent one too. So really driving a tow truck around as Franklin isn't getting a pass on me for character development. Actually the Epsilon stuff Michael does has very little input from Michael himself. Michael doesn't actually develop at all during this whole set of missions.

Prior to me exploring my experience with GTA through this conversation, the two things I remembered most from it personally were the Epsilon mission, Fresh Meat and shooting clowns on a drug trip. Two of these things were remembered for negative reasons and much of my experience (totally personally) was largely alright.

As an artifact that I have played BoTW more recently, I remember more of it so it's hard to tell if I will remember over time the moment I was fighting a Moblin on a bridge when he clubbed me and I recovered mid-air, gliding to safety where I stumbled upon a shrine, or when I first came across the glowing horse or when I lucked out against a troop of moblins in one of the usual camps, on my last sword during a lightning storm and flung it at them just at the moment lightning struck and killed them with the conducted blade. Or the very first time I did that Dual Peak quest and got really excited about the environmental riddles. Because I remember those small, emergent moments right now. I don't know how they will last over time but they definitely feel individualistic and experiences conducted by me because much of the engagement I've had in BoTW felt like engagement by my own accord. That is probably why I find it more memorable right now.

It's not even the scale of these tasks because even the micro-situations, because I'm engaging with an initiative of my own to seek out those small environmental riddles, I get a good feeling out of solving them. I mean that's a cognitive thing that will be player dependent but I respond better and internalize more things that I did by myself than large scale things conducted linearly by a designer regardless of the scale.

My point has always been not that the mechanics are completely unnecessary, they just aren't that important compared to the bigger exploration. The physics sandbox is really... i think a small part of the zelda experience. And a lot of those physics

The other kind of sandbox you are describing is generally known as freeroam. It has very little to do with the actual real world sandboxes. And a lot more in common with a real world theme park for instance. You go into the themepark, pick the rides at your own discretion and then call it a day.

That is why Zelda is a sandbox. MGS5 is a sandbox because of how much you can manipulate the AI, with above average object manipulation (not to the scale of Zelda, but still good). But GTA? Your ability to manipulate the world around you is dismal. Hence why it fails as a sandbox.

The entire world considers games like gta a sandbox. Sandbox's aren't exclusively built on systems driven gameplay. Hence why halo has a sandbox design in its linear levels.

And your ignoring aspects of the interaction with the world. Just because there are scripted elements doesn't take away from the sandbox. As far as action games go it helps I think. Far cry has less scripting but generally suffers because its boring and nothing to help change the pace. But as far as the open world missions, its about the unpredictable nature of how everything progresses. Thats what makes halo/gta good sandboxes, gta having unpredictable action sequences involving cars/police/enemies all tossed in semi randomly and governed by ai after introduction. I'm clearly not *just* describing free roam mechanics.

Edit: And if you don't understand why the trial of thunder or the isle are so phenomenal, then you don't understand why Thief and similar games worked well. These are examples of more complex problems. Not because of extra balls or whatever, but because they force you to adapt to situations by taking away things you normally take for granted while still maintaining the overall sandboxy, systems driven gameplay. Those are examples of the game having meat. It isnt us ignoring the arguments, it is you.

But its not a complex situation as i've stated dozens of times. Yes the physics can be considered complex but the majority of the puzzles just aren't that difficult and don't take long to solve. Again you can do something 100 different ways but that doesn't mean its really fun or interesting to see how many ways you can move a ball onto a ledge.

As i've been saying a->b. That represents most of zelda's gameplay.

And its not comparable to thief. Thief is an immersive sim which has feedback loops and interaction during a level and just keeps going regardless of how messy it gets. If you lose a ball it resets in Trial of Thunder.

Its less of a physics sandbox and mostly a physics puzzle game, use physics to solve puzzles.

@waahahah: "Its less of a physics sandbox and mostly a physics puzzle game, use physics to solve puzzles."

Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

The task isn't what determines the sandbox.

Edit:

As far as BoTW being an immersive sim. It has elements of one but hasn't the overall consistency as something like Thief. Much of the language of BoTW's physics and environments are preserved as best they can. Fire burns wood, fire goes out in water etc. But when it comes to cohesion on a grand scale, understandably (due to the size) it's not retained as much as something like Thief. Not even close.

driving a tow truck has dialog for the old friend your helping, which is explained via dialog and builds Franklin's backstory and some of his motivations for trying to earn more money. It wasn't for the sake of just earning more money as is mentioned during those conversations. What maybe under developed is his relationship with Tanisha, but thats not the point of the story is it? Its his relationship with michael and trevor. I don't think any one complained about walter whites emasculated existence, we don't get that much back story just alluded too its the character arcs that matter. And I don't think michaels/trevors/franklins are bad or inconsistent.

Epsilon stuff? Who said that is for Michael's development? Nobody. And I don't see this as jarring inconsistencies as michael is sort of loosing his shit the entire game. So explain why he wouldn't do it? I think thats the whole point is they are characterized pretty well, where michael is struggling with his home life.

Prior to me exploring my experience with GTA through this conversation, the two things I remembered most from it personally were the Epsilon mission, Fresh Meat and shooting clowns on a drug trip. Two of these things were remembered for negative reasons and much of my experience (totally personally) was largely alright.

And? I only remember eventide island, seeing a dragon for the first time and... and feeling like some experiences were incredibly short and underwhelming like lost woods? Does that mean thats all that matters?

As an artifact that I have played BoTW more recently, I remember more of it so it's hard to tell if I will remember over time the moment I was fighting a Moblin on a bridge when he clubbed me and I recovered mid-air, gliding to safety where I stumbled upon a shrine, or when I first came across the glowing horse or when I lucked out against a troop of moblins in one of the usual camps, on my last sword during a lightning storm and flung it at them just at the moment lightning struck and killed them with the conducted blade. Or the very first time I did that Dual Peak quest and got really excited about the environmental riddles. Because I remember those small, emergent moments right now. I don't know how they will last over time but they definitely feel individualistic and experiences conducted by me because much of the engagement I've had in BoTW felt like engagement by my own accord. That is probably why I find it more memorable right now.

I've recently played through both, I think I have 200+ hours which inludes GTA5 with online as well as 2 play throughs... online is a total different breed of sandbox... 70 with botw, and just because it was brought up 400+ with mgs5.. and I haven't played the online at all... not sure if thats sad or not.

@waahahah: The thief comparison has to do with how thief worked.

Thief was great not because of what if featured, it was great because of what it didnt feature. By denying you information most gamers would take for granted, and making garret incredibly underpowered in combat. The later Thief games removed the limitations that was a huge part in what made the first 2 game so great, and the games really suffered as a result.

The thunder area and Eventide Isle, worked great because they imposed limitations all while, still having a coherrent enough ruleset that is a must for a proper sandbox, and enough freedom of action and interactivity outside these limits.

And while I am at it. Puzzle and Sandbox are not mutually exclusive.

Using your logic about unpredictability we can throw the sandbox term to a lot of games that clearly arent sandboxes, such as any multiplayer game (gamers are unpredictable) or even left4dead, which operates on the notion of an unpredictable AI. Sorry, but the people who asserted that it is a sandbox were wrong. And no it isnt the whole world. In fact, there is a reason people tend to use the term free-roam or open world a lot more nowadays than sandbox to describe games like GTA, or Far Cry 3. People were also wrong when they use the term Emergent gameplay.

But it isnt just gaming, look at how often words like "literally" are misused, to the point it is extremely common to use that term for the opposite of what it actually means. Asserting that it is common doesnt mean its wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-58-most-commonly-misused-words-and-phrases-a6754551.html

Edit: The physics sandbox of breath of hte wild is a huge part of the game, to the point, where good players will constantly take advantage of it. And pretty much every single shrine in the game is built around the physics engine. Even if some people can't take advantage of the indepth engine, doesnt mean it isnt a sandbox. We judge the merits and depth of a game by high level play, not low level play.

I think my point is a lot of these things are isolated from each other, again short lived. Like its not that much better in its use of the "open world" any more than gta is if you look at it from what the open world really offers. Apart from the amazing journey.

Solve a puzzle in a small area in zelda vs shoot up a factory. How much different are they really? Though navigting around the city evading cops actually uses the open world in a much more meaningful way I think in terms of gameplay being a crime sandbox.