What's better than Xbox Live?

[QUOTE="sargentbotk"]Your thread failed once you created the thread. And your purpose went to shreads once Ninja-Hippo came in.mstc_Q

I'm absolutely right, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Stop paying for something you shouldn't have to! That's the only way things change.

You could even buy a year's supply of bathroom cleaning chemicals, including the toilet brush!

Why shouldnt we have to, though? :| Is the service better than PSN? Yes it is, without a doubt. Most PS3 fanboys even admit that quite happily. Do some people care that it's better? No, they couldn't care less. They'd rather have a simpler service without the bells and whistles which doesnt cost any money. That's fair enough.

They would buy a ps3 which is more suited to their needs. Or maybe they'd buy a 360 and just use the cards for one month of Live access when they get a good multiplayer game.

Then there's the third little branch of people who dont own an xbox, and have no reason to even have an opinion on the service and it's overall value, who choose to bash it on the internet and tell people they should pay, despite having no real idea what it is they even pay for.

They're called fanboys. If you prefer a free service; good for you. Stop telling people who prefer Live that they're wasting their money; 10 million people aren't wrong.

[QUOTE="sargentbotk"]Your thread failed once you created the thread. And your purpose went to shreads once Ninja-Hippo came in.mstc_Q

I'm absolutely right, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Stop paying for something you shouldn't have to! That's the only way things change.

Why care how people spend their money? No one should care. This thread is pointless. Your motives are pointless. Your demands are definitely pointless.

I'm done with this pointless chain of pointlessness coming from here.

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

Heh, I like to think I'm being unbiased most of the time...

Ninja-Hippo

You're the only one.

What's your definition of biased?

You could get a blutooth headset AND a USB headset, if for some reason you needed both.

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

[QUOTE="sargentbotk"]Your thread failed once you created the thread. And your purpose went to shreads once Ninja-Hippo came in.Ninja-Hippo

I'm absolutely right, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Stop paying for something you shouldn't have to! That's the only way things change.

You could even buy a year's supply of bathroom cleaning chemicals, including the toilet brush!

Why shouldnt we have to, though? :| Is the service better than PSN? Yes it is, without a doubt. Most PS3 fanboys even admit that quite happily. Do some people care that it's better? No, they couldn't care less. They'd rather have a simpler service without the bells and whistles which doesnt cost any money. That's fair enough.

They would buy a ps3 which is more suited to their needs. Or maybe they'd buy a 360 and just use the cards for one month of Live access when they get a good multiplayer game.

Then there's the third little branch of people who dont own an xbox, and have no reason to even have an opinion on the service and it's overall value, who choose to bash it on the internet and tell people they should pay, despite having no real idea what it is they even pay for.

They're called fanboys. If you prefer a free service; good for you. Stop telling people who prefer Live that they're wasting their money; 10 million people aren't wrong.

i guess 50 bucks is alot of money to people in grade school.

seriously, i can run through 400 easly on a weekend of binge drinking

Utensilman

I'm in college actually.


And I could get a college T-Shirt, and a College Water Mug, and a College banner, just to keep up that team spirit!

dont you love it when people like him make certain threads about a console they dont even own :lol: dont let get to ya though, he is very notorious fanboy in my bookDante2710

Oh i dont let anything get to me on system wars. I just come here to argue with people who need to be told to stop. I think he's pretty much the new TwinBlade at this stage.

[QUOTE="Utensilman"]

i guess 50 bucks is alot of money to people in grade school.

seriously, i can run through 400 easly on a weekend of binge drinking

mstc_Q

I'm in college actually.


And I could get a college T-Shirt, and a College Water Mug, and a College banner, just to keep up that team spirit!

it shows.....

it shows.....

Utensilman

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

[QUOTE="sargentbotk"]Your thread failed once you created the thread. And your purpose went to shreads once Ninja-Hippo came in.Ninja-Hippo

I'm absolutely right, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Stop paying for something you shouldn't have to! That's the only way things change.

You could even buy a year's supply of bathroom cleaning chemicals, including the toilet brush!

Why shouldnt we have to, though? :| Is the service better than PSN? Yes it is, without a doubt. Most PS3 fanboys even admit that quite happily. Do some people care that it's better? No, they couldn't care less. They'd rather have a simpler service without the bells and whistles which doesnt cost any money. That's fair enough.

They would buy a ps3 which is more suited to their needs. Or maybe they'd buy a 360 and just use the cards for one month of Live access when they get a good multiplayer game.

Then there's the third little branch of people who dont own an xbox, and have no reason to even have an opinion on the service and it's overall value, who choose to bash it on the internet and tell people they should pay, despite having no real idea what it is they even pay for.

They're called fanboys. If you prefer a free service; good for you. Stop telling people who prefer Live that they're wasting their money; 10 million people aren't wrong.

World of Warcraft uses a similar arguement.

But lets use a different example; after World War 2 a survey was taken about what the we should do with the Japanese now that the war was over. I don't remember the exact percentage (this was something discussed in my Asian history course but I remember that it was something over 70% of Americans thought that we should exterminate the last of them.

I'm pretty sure that 70% of the US in the 1940s was over 10 million. Boy how the Gaming world would have changed if they listened to THAT.

And besides, even you said it was at least overpriced.




Lets take that $20 difference you think they should be charging and buy a couple of last gen games, shall we?

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

Heh, I like to think I'm being unbiased most of the time...

Ninja-Hippo

You're the only one.

What's your definition of biased?

You could get a blutooth headset AND a USB headset, if for some reason you needed both.

Oh come on, you're a notorious fanboy at this stage. Nobody opens your threads expecting objectivity any more. You wont have a bad word said about the PS3, yet the 360 is just a white box full of flaws according to you; strange, that the system you dont own seems to be the one you find so awful. :roll:

I'm pretty sure that XBL is the only thing I've really complained about concerning the 360.

And I made a PS3 bashing thread just today, but they locked it.



You could also buy a new controller!

Well if I buy a 360 here in UK and get two gold memberships over a period of 26 months, I'll still be 20 pounds better off than if I'd bought a PS3 :?

See I can spin these things too.Burnsmiesta

You could argue that, but then you'd be one less Bluray player still.

And you could buy a Bluray Movie or two!

[QUOTE="Burnsmiesta"]Well if I buy a 360 here in UK and get two gold memberships over a period of 26 months, I'll still be 20 pounds better off than if I'd bought a PS3 :?

See I can spin these things too.mstc_Q

You could argue that, but then you'd be one less Bluray player still.

And you could buy a Bluray DvD or two!

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

[QUOTE="Burnsmiesta"]Well if I buy a 360 here in UK and get two gold memberships over a period of 26 months, I'll still be 20 pounds better off than if I'd bought a PS3 :?

See I can spin these things too.Burnsmiesta

You could argue that, but then you'd be one less Bluray player still.

And you could buy a Bluray DvD or two!

I dunno, but you sure wouldn't have one by spending nearly as much money on the 360!

Now if the 360 DIDN'T cost $50 a year to game online with, then it'd be hands down the best deal this generation!


But as it is, you might get a jacket or a sweater for those cold winter months instead of paying that yearly fee.

[QUOTE="Burnsmiesta"][QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

[QUOTE="Burnsmiesta"]Well if I buy a 360 here in UK and get two gold memberships over a period of 26 months, I'll still be 20 pounds better off than if I'd bought a PS3 :?

See I can spin these things too.mstc_Q

You could argue that, but then you'd be one less Bluray player still.

And you could buy a Bluray DvD or two!

I dunno, but you sure wouldn't have one by spending nearly as much money on the 360!

Now if the 360 DIDN'T cost $50 a year to game online with, then it'd be hands down the best deal this generation!


But as it is, you might get a jacket or a sweater for those cold winter months instead of paying that yearly fee.

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

World of Warcraft uses a similar arguement.

But lets use a different example; after World War 2 a survey was taken about what the we should do with the Japanese now that the war was over. I don't remember the exact percentage (this was something discussed in my Asian history course but I remember that it was something over 70% of Americans thought that we should exterminate the last of them.

I'm pretty sure that 70% of the US in the 1940s was over 10 million. Boy how the Gaming world would have changed if they listened to THAT.

And besides, even you said it was at least overpriced.




Lets take that $20 difference you think they should be charging and buy a couple of last gen games, shall we?

Ninja-Hippo

Post-war pollers sure are the same thing as satisfied consumers. Super comparison! :| It was also 10% of americans who took the poll; lord knows which teacher told you it was 70%.

FACT TIME!

Taking a price and figuring out what you could buy with that money is a completey pointless exercise. I just bought a motorcycle - BUT i could have bought a billion gumballs! What a waste of money! That's the logic you're giving me.

Do i think xbox live is over priced? Yes. My personal opinion. At least i have a shred of experience to even back that opinion up. I have friends who are perfectly fine with the price though, because they get reliability and consistancy. The simple fact is that they pay $50 glady, and feel they get every penny of their money's worth.

You cant seem to stand the idea, but most people are perfectly happy with xbox live. You seem to believe that people are paying for something which the PS3 offers for free, which simply isnt the case. WoW players could easily go play a free MMO or a cheaper one. Why dont they? Because they're not all enlightened, like you? No, because they're happy with WoW and feel that the experience it provides is better than the other MMOs out there and is worth the asking price.

70% of 10% of the American population at that time is still a fairly large number. In either case, it's proof that a large number of people could indeed be wrong.

Now you could be happy all you want with the cost, but that doesn't make it justifiable. It will always be ridiculous that they're charging that much for something that other services, not even referring to PSN, are giving out for free.

I'll admit that other MMOs suck, but what 10 million people say about it has no effect on me.

The problem I have is that I don't think people really understand the opportunity cost of what they're paying for.

But if they want to persue it out of some illusion that it makes them happy, then I guess you're right, it's none of my business, and it wont indeed change for me, even if I did manage to persuade all of SW to quit paying for it, you guys only represent a small percentage of the gaming population.

I guess I should let people burn money as they please, while I go and enjoy my $50 somewhere else.

If I have offended anyone or made them feel bad in any way though, maybe you should rethink what you're doing with your money.

70% of 10% of the American population at that time is still a fairly large number. In either case, it's proof that a large number of people could indeed be wrong.

Now you could be happy all you want with the cost, but that doesn't make it justifiable. It will always be ridiculous that they're charging that much for something that other services, not even referring to PSN, are giving out for free.

I'll admit that other MMOs suck, but what 10 million people say about it has no effect on me.

The problem I have is that I don't think people really understand the opportunity cost of what they're paying for.

But if they want to persue it out of some illusion that it makes them happy, then I guess you're right, it's none of my business, and it wont indeed change for me, even if I did manage to persuade all of SW to quit paying for it, you guys only represent a small percentage of the gaming population.

I guess I should let people burn money as they please, while I go and enjoy my $50 somewhere else.

If I have offended anyone or made them feel bad in any way though, maybe you should rethink what you're doing with your money.

mstc_Q

No, 10% of those who took the poll answered for that option. Not 70%. :roll:

Here's the EPIC flaw in your arguement; people arent paying for what they get elsewhere for free. People who pay for WoW to play an MMO arent paying for something they can get for free. That's what you cant seem to grasp. Can they get another MMO for free? Sure. Will it be the same MMO? Will it have the same community? The same features? The same quests and add-ons? The same support?

No, it wont. It'll offer something different for the asking price, if any. Your logic is that XBox Live asks for money while offering nothing in exchange for it; nobody would pay for that.

I think you need to be willing to accept that you're wrong, or at the very least, stop making threads about things you have no experience with and therefore no comprehension of. I'm not going to tell people that modding their car is a waste of money, because i have no idea what it entails and i'm not arrogant enough to talk about things i know nothing about.

I'm going to be an independent commentator and say that Ninja-Hippo has completely debunked the other guy's argument. Very articulately as well.sonicare

Usually at this stage of the thread he says it was all a joke/a satirical comment on the nature of system wars.

Good Lord! I thought I was in OT. Please disregard all of my posts here. I hate this forum.sonicare

:lol:

Amen. I might kick it in OT for a while myself.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

World of Warcraft uses a similar arguement.

But lets use a different example; after World War 2 a survey was taken about what the we should do with the Japanese now that the war was over. I don't remember the exact percentage (this was something discussed in my Asian history course but I remember that it was something over 70% of Americans thought that we should exterminate the last of them.

I'm pretty sure that 70% of the US in the 1940s was over 10 million. Boy how the Gaming world would have changed if they listened to THAT.

And besides, even you said it was at least overpriced.




Lets take that $20 difference you think they should be charging and buy a couple of last gen games, shall we?

mstc_Q

Post-war pollers sure are the same thing as satisfied consumers. Super comparison! :| It was also 10% of americans who took the poll; lord knows which teacher told you it was 70%.

FACT TIME!

Taking a price and figuring out what you could buy with that money is a completey pointless exercise. I just bought a motorcycle - BUT i could have bought a billion gumballs! What a waste of money! That's the logic you're giving me.

Do i think xbox live is over priced? Yes. My personal opinion. At least i have a shred of experience to even back that opinion up. I have friends who are perfectly fine with the price though, because they get reliability and consistancy. The simple fact is that they pay $50 glady, and feel they get every penny of their money's worth.

You cant seem to stand the idea, but most people are perfectly happy with xbox live. You seem to believe that people are paying for something which the PS3 offers for free, which simply isnt the case. WoW players could easily go play a free MMO or a cheaper one. Why dont they? Because they're not all enlightened, like you? No, because they're happy with WoW and feel that the experience it provides is better than the other MMOs out there and is worth the asking price.

70% of 10% of the American population at that time is still a fairly large number. In either case, it's proof that a large number of people could indeed be wrong.

Now you could be happy all you want with the cost, but that doesn't make it justifiable. It will always be ridiculous that they're charging that much for something that other services, not even referring to PSN, are giving out for free.

I'll admit that other MMOs suck, but what 10 million people say about it has no effect on me.

The problem I have is that I don't think people really understand the opportunity cost of what they're paying for.

But if they want to persue it out of some illusion that it makes them happy, then I guess you're right, it's none of my business, and it wont indeed change for me, even if I did manage to persuade all of SW to quit paying for it, you guys only represent a small percentage of the gaming population.

I guess I should let people burn money as they please, while I go and enjoy my $50 somewhere else.

If I have offended anyone or made them feel bad in any way though, maybe you should rethink what you're doing with your money.

And that should've been the first reason why your motive was pointless, and this thread should've never been made.

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

Again, you're not very good at percieving my satire, so I'll spell it out for you;

I was also pointing out that there really wasn't much to be praised either. I believe I also said something along the lines of "If you don't like MGS, then the PS3 probably isn't the best buy."

It's people like you that makes trolling so easy.

Ninja-Hippo

a) Look up the word "satire".

b) Stop, by your own admission, trolling. :roll:

c) You openly bash the 360 or the DS, yet when you speak of the PS3 it's "satire" and humor. In reality you just cant force yourself to say anything bad about it.

You didnt say there wasnt much to be praised at all. You went through it point by point, basically pointing out how there's nothing negative which could be said.

My own personal tip; why not just make threads/post with a point and with relevance rather than trying to be clever or satiracal (your own definition of what that means at least...). There's no point posting just to irritate others - and i'm not flaming there, that seems to be your motive by your own admission.

EDIT: you seem to be of the belief that the very purpose of system wars is to annoy others, and you couldnt be more wrong.

I'm pretty sure that when I'm being Ironic or even sarcastic, I'm being satirical.

And I'll ask, what then is the purpose of the system wars, other than for people to try and prove by whatever means that their system is the best?

I seriously have nothing against the Xbox per se, except that I think its ridiculous that if I got one, I'd have to pay good hard earned money just to play with my friends, which at the least should be included with the silver subscription.

I don't remember bashing the DS... And if I post about the Wii, it's because it pisses me off occasionally.

If you're offended by my threads, then you don't get the point - or in this case - you simply don't agree with me.

No, 10% of those who took the poll answered for that option. Not 70%. :roll:

Ninja-Hippo

Alright, even 10% of the American population would be more than 10 million.

Judging from the predjudices you still see today against the Japanese by people who grew up in that era, I wouldn't doubt the number was higher.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]

No, 10% of those who took the poll answered for that option. Not 70%. :roll:

mstc_Q

Alright, even 10% of the American population would be more than 10 million.

Judging from the predjudices you still see today against the Japanese by people who grew up in that era, I wouldn't doubt the number was higher.

It was 10%. And you think they polled the entire american populace? :|

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]

No, 10% of those who took the poll answered for that option. Not 70%. :roll:

Ninja-Hippo

Alright, even 10% of the American population would be more than 10 million.

Judging from the predjudices you still see today against the Japanese by people who grew up in that era, I wouldn't doubt the number was higher.

you think they polled the entire american populace? :|

Not at all, That would be stupid.

And if you could get me a source, I would like that for my records.

I love going to my professors like that.

6 Virtual Console SNES games, now including Mario RPG.mstc_Q

wow i just noticed that it came out yesterday........ive been waiting for this game for so long on virtual console, but now i think i gotta buy points :(

Not at all, That would be stupid.

And if you could get me a source, I would like that for my records.

I love going to my professors like that.

mstc_Q

Then how is it 10% of the american population, like you just said? :|

Also, the source? My education.

We can establish therefore, that 10% is in fact a small minority of people against a much larger majority of people with less radical ideas which thus holds absolutely no relevance in comparison to xbox live users being happy to pay for what they get.

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

I'm pretty sure that when I'm being Ironic or even sarcastic, I'm being satirical.

And I'll ask, what then is the purpose of the system wars, other than for people to try and prove by whatever means that their system is the best?

I seriously have nothing against the Xbox per se, except that I think its ridiculous that if I got one, I'd have to pay good hard earned money just to play with my friends, which at the least should be included with the silver subscription.

I don't remember bashing the DS... And if I post about the Wii, it's because it pisses me off occasionally.

If you're offended by my threads, then you don't get the point - or in this case - you simply don't agree with me.

Ninja-Hippo

The point of system wars is indeed to prove which system is the best; using experience, common sense and logic. ;)

I'm not offended at all. I just think you need to stop posting about things you know nothing about (especially in criticism of things you know nothing about), stop the pointless attempts to call yourself unbiased when you're so obviously a PS3 fanboy, and stop refering to yourself as a witty scribe who only intended to point out the folly of human nature when your threads go belly up.

You keep doing all of that and i, and others, keep calling you out on it. It's not a matter of me "not getting the point" at all, but rather a case of you not having the experience or knowledge of the subject matter you insist on discussing to even have a point to begin with.

Most of the time you're just not getting the point. Here I'm being pretty clear. When I mask my meaning, I and anyone who gets it get to watch the humorous clammoring of the knights of thier respective consoles trying to defend the honor of thier lord; I think it's hilarious sometimes - people making fools of themselves.

I'd say that 90% of my theads are like this no matter what forum it's in, I do it on purpose, and you can call it trolling if you like, but my meaning is always there whether you see it or not.

And as for the PS3, if MGS4 was on the 360, I'd have a 360. If MGS4 was on the Wii, I'd... well.. I wouldn't have bought a PS3, that's for sure.

I am a dyed in the wool MGS4 fanboy, I'll admit that, but I claim no allegence to Sony. As for the system, I'm admittedly in the honeymoon phase with it right now - it's difficult for me to find things wrong with it - I was the same way with the Wii the first few months.

I'm sure that somewhere down the line I'll find something, but since it's essentially my only next-gen gaming system, at least until XBL is free to play online, I'm not sure if I'll ever be terribly disatisfied with it.

I've mocked in the past the sony fanboys though. I've refered to the Cell Processor as a magical thing that will make all my dreams come true, and I've made fun of other ridiculous claims and arguments.

In a phrase, I'm afraid you're wrong.

5 PSN gamesmstc_Q

not including gamesharing freebies :P

no but srzly uhh like an entire game...or 2 great hit games used (thats 50 bucks exact)

[QUOTE="mstc_Q"]

Not at all, That would be stupid.

And if you could get me a source, I would like that for my records.

I love going to my professors like that.

Ninja-Hippo

Then how is it 10% of the american population, like you just said? :|

Also, the source? My education.

We can establish therefore, that 10% is in fact a small minority of people against a much larger majority of people with less radical ideas which thus holds absolutely no relevance in comparison to xbox live users being happy to pay for what they get.

Our educations apparently contradict eachother, I'll have to look this up.

In either case, if I had an Xbox, I'd pay for XBL, because I like playing games online. If I was paying for it, I'm sure I'd try and justify it, at least for a little while. But like World of Warcraft, as soon as I'd play other things and realize that there are just better things to do with my money, I'd be right back here.

Our educations apparently contradict eachother, I'll have to look this up.

In either case, if I had an Xbox, I'd pay for XBL, because I like playing games online. If I was paying for it, I'm sure I'd try and justify it, at least for a little while. But like World of Warcraft, as soon as I'd play other things and realize that there are just better things to do with my money, I'd be right back here.

mstc_Q

If this were Education Wars i'd win:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/japan_no_surrender_04.shtml

a) In order to watch people defend their consoles, you need to start off with a reasonable point. Stop with this patronising notion that you're "masking the meanings". Puh-lease. What meaning have you masked here? What greater folly are you trying to expose?

You're just bashing xbox live.

b) Dont bother trying to find evidence of your non-fanboyism. The damage is done. After your "the ps3 has won the console war!" and you string of "xbox live is teh bad" threads, you cant honestly hope to keep up this idea that you're not a fanboy.

Ninja-Hippo

a) I didn't say I was being satirical in this thread, I said I was in the PS3 bahing thread. Yes, I am just bashing XBL, or rather it's expense anyway, and I even pointed out that I wasn't trying to mask anything here.

Most of my threads have been about just how stupid this "system war" really is.

b) My "PS3 has won the console war" was one of those very threads that you apparently didn't understand. My point was is that in the end it really doesn't matter who wins and who loses - there are still people who own and love thier dreamcasts which is a clas sic example of something that supposedly lost; from a business perspective, it did, from a fan perspective though it lives on with vitality.

You can think I'm a fanboy all you like, but the fact is, I'm not.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]

a) In order to watch people defend their consoles, you need to start off with a reasonable point. Stop with this patronising notion that you're "masking the meanings". Puh-lease. What meaning have you masked here? What greater folly are you trying to expose?

You're just bashing xbox live.

b) Dont bother trying to find evidence of your non-fanboyism. The damage is done. After your "the ps3 has won the console war!" and you string of "xbox live is teh bad" threads, you cant honestly hope to keep up this idea that you're not a fanboy.

mstc_Q

a) I didn't say I was being satirical in this thread, I said I was in the PS3 bahing thread. Yes, I am just bashing XBL, or rather it's expense anyway, and I even pointed out that I wasn't trying to mask anything here.

Most of my threads have been about just how stupid this "system war" really is.

b) My "PS3 has won the console war" was one of those very threads that you apparently didn't understand. My point was is that in the end it really doesn't matter who wins and who loses - there are still people who own and love thier dreamcasts which is a clas sic example of something that supposedly lost; from a business perspective, it did, from a fan perspective though it lives on with vitality.

You can think I'm a fanboy all you like, but the fact is, I'm not.

at the very least u are undeniably bias.

If this were Education Wars i'd win:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/japan_no_surrender_04.shtml

Ninja-Hippo

Fun, now I get to go embarrass a professor.

Lets make a list of things that you could be spending $50 a year on that would be better than XBL. Try to keep it down to one item per post so the number of responses to this thread would be a somewhat accurate representation of the number of things you COULD Be doing instead of blowing $50 on XBL.

Minus, of course, the inevitable influx of those defending the service, insisting that because it's marginally better than "anything else" that it's worth the money.


I'm trying to make a point here about exactly how much $50 is worth.

I'll start with:

10 Virtual Console NES games.

mstc_Q

buy me a new pc game.

I'm actually not going to be at this all night at all. I'm really not a fan of posters who refuse to ever admit fault, instead going round and round and round much like Sackboy's Pete Townsend impression.

I'm off.

I'm actually not going to be at this all night at all. I'm really not a fan of posters who refuse to ever admit fault, instead going round and round and round much like Sackboy's Pete Townsend impression.

I'm off.

Ninja-Hippo