Which game do you think is going to be the RPG of this year?

elders scrolls skyrim easily

Chris_Williams

no question if it comes out this year

Both claims are from his own posts. This is a case of attempting to shift the burden of proof on your part ( managed rather poorly, I might add ).SkyWard20

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="SkyWard20"]That's not exactly how I worded it, unfortunately. Not discounting that as a possibility either though.Obviously, absolute proof is something we both lack. So again, Twitter ( as evidence ).SkyWard20

Both claims are from his own posts. This is a case of attempting to shift the burden of proof on your part ( managed rather poorly, I might add ).

If I may interject,

IronBass's argument is more sound than yours.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]Both claims are from his own posts. This is a case of attempting to shift the burden of proof on your part ( managed rather poorly, I might add ).IronBass

Not really, we both need to provide proof for our respective stances. You simply discounted my claim/evidence as 'insufficient' and used that in support of yours ( "until then, we're going by what he said" ) which is an appeal to ignorance.

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="SkyWard20"]Both claims are from his own posts. This is a case of attempting to shift the burden of proof on your part ( managed rather poorly, I might add ).SkyWard20

Not really, we both need to provide proof for our respective stances. You simply discounted my claim/evidence as 'insufficient' and used that in support of yours ( "until then, we're going by what he said" ) which is an appeal to ignorance.

Actually no, I just read your argument on this thread, and you haven't provided any evidence. You just said 'Twitter updates'. That's not sufficient proof.

Not really, we both need to provide proof for our respective stances. You simply discounted my claim/evidence as 'insufficient' and used that in support of yours ( "until then, we're going by what he said" ) which is an appeal to ignorance.SkyWard20

A person is considered to be telling the truth until proven the contrary. In dubio pro reo and all that. So yes, until you prove he's saying something he doesn't actually think, his statement (about his own review :!: ) is to be considered true.

Besides, I didn't discount your evidence, and that's because you haven't presented any. You simply mentioned some Twitter posts, and that's it. You didn't even show us said posts.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="IronBass"] I presented a post that shows what he thinks (I linked to the thread, quoted him and even highlighted the important part of the quote). You said he doesn't actually think that... so the burden of proof is on you.FrozenLiquid

Not really, we both need to provide proof for our respective stances. You simply discounted my claim/evidence as 'insufficient' and used that in support of yours ( "until then, we're going by what he said" ) which is an appeal to ignorance.

Actually no, I just read your argument on this thread, and you haven't provided any evidence. You just said 'Twitter updates'. That's not sufficient proof.

He didn't bother to ask for any quotes, but I remember quoting Kevin VanOrd in The Witcher 2 hype thread directly from his twitter a few times.

I really don't want to go searching for that though. Pretty much everyone in the thread followed his twitter updates ( e.g. I really wish developers would know the difference between challenging or cheap", "THAT'S the ending?!" off the top of my head. )

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]Not really, we both need to provide proof for our respective stances. You simply discounted my claim/evidence as 'insufficient' and used that in support of yours ( "until then, we're going by what he said" ) which is an appeal to ignorance.IronBass

A person is considered to be telling the truth until proven the contrary. In dubio pro reo and all that. So yes, until you prove he's saying something he doesn't actually think, his statement (about his own review :!: ) is to be considered true.

Besides, I didn't discount your evidence, and that's because you haven't presented any. You simply mentioned some Twitter posts, and that's it. You didn't even show us said posts.

You do realize we're not in court?

And, you didn't bother to ask, so I assumed you already knew.

Aside from that, it's pretty much impossible to know what Kevin VanOrd is thinking without actually being Kevin VanOrd.

You do realize we're not in court?And, you didn't bother to ask, so I assumed you already knew.SkyWard20

Probably Skyrim.

EDIT: Oh god, I just interupted a very important arguement, didn't I?

He didn't bother to ask for any quotes, but I remember quoting Kevin VanOrd in The Witcher 2 hype thread directly from his twitter a few times.

I really don't want to go searching for that though. Pretty much everyone in the thread followed his twitter updates ( e.g. I really wish developers would know the difference between challenging or cheap", "THAT'S the ending?!" off the top of my head. )

SkyWard20

Since you're all for professing good argument (I presume for your link to appeal to ignorance), you would also know that refraining from providing as much evidence as needed is another poor method of arguing. It would have been good of you to provide quotes, source etc.

Nevertheless, suppose we invoke the principle of charity on your part. I will believe your claim that Kevin VanOrd said all those things you have mentioned off-hand.

Does that mean that The Witcher 2 scraped the AAA score it received?

We would have to break down the context of the evidence presented by both parties.

-

Skyward vs. IronBass: FIGHT!

Skyward, your evidence suggests that there was a time and place your quotes were presented. If I were to assume correctly, these remarks by Kevin were given while he was playing the game. That is to say, he was in the process of reviewing the game.

The proof IronBass has presented appears to have been given afterMr. VanOrd reviewed the game. That is to say, once he had given final analysis of the game, he once again justified the review.

One argument is more sound than the other. Suppose two scientists were to argue if which celestial bodies revolved around the other; one scientist argued the Earth revolved around the Sun, the other argued the Sun revolves around the Earth. The first provides evidence from William Herschel to suggest the planets revolve around the Sun, whereas the other provided evidence from Aristotle to prove that the Earth is the centre of the universe. Reasonably, the first scientist has the better argument, due to the fact that more knowledge in astronomy had been acquired between the time of Herschel and Aristotle.

In the same manner, while you can provide negative remarks while Kevin was reviewing The Witcher 2, IronBass has provided a positive remark once The Witcher 2 received its score. It is entirely possible that Kevin found some frustrations while playing the game, however, it seems likely, given the remark quoted by IronBass, that all things considered, The Witcher 2 was a fantastic game that deserved its score entirely.

So yes, IronBass's argument is definitely more sound.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]You do realize we're not in court?And, you didn't bother to ask, so I assumed you already knew.IronBass

.

Aside from that, it's pretty much impossible to know what Kevin VanOrd is thinking without actually being Kevin VanOrd.

SkyWard20

That's an appeal to ignorance, my friend :P

Since you're all for professing good argument (I presume for your link to appeal to ignorance), you would also know that refraining from providing as much evidence as needed is another poor method of arguing. It would have been good of you to provide quotes, source etc.

Nevertheless, suppose we invoke the principle of charity on your part. I will believe your claim that Kevin VanOrd said all those things you have mentioned off-hand.

Does that mean that The Witcher 2 scraped the AAA score it received?

We would have to break down the context of the evidence presented by both parties.

-

Skyward vs. IronBass: FIGHT!

Skyward, your evidence suggests that there was a time and place your quotes were presented. If I were to assume correctly, these remarks by Kevin were given while he was playing the game. That is to say, he was in the process of reviewing the game.

The proof IronBass has presented appears to have been given afterMr. VanOrd reviewed the game. That is to say, once he had given final analysis of the game, he once again justified the review.

One argument is more sound than the other. Suppose two scientists were to argue if which celestial bodies revolved around the other; one scientist argued the Earth revolved around the Sun, the other argued the Sun revolves around the Earth. The first provides evidence from William Herschel to suggest the planets revolve around the Sun, whereas the other provided evidence from Aristotle to prove that the Earth is the centre of the universe. Reasonably, the first scientist has the better argument, due to the fact that more knowledge in astronomy had been acquired between the time of Herschel and Aristotle.

In the same manner, while you can provide negative remarks while Kevin was reviewing The Witcher 2, IronBass has provided a positive remark once The Witcher 2 received its score. It is entirely possible that Kevin found some frustrations while playing the game, however, it seems likely, given the remark quoted by IronBass, that all things considered, The Witcher 2 was a fantastic game that deserved its score entirely.

So yes, IronBass's argument is definitely more sound.

FrozenLiquid

You should do this more often, would save us all a lot of time =P

You should do this more often, would save us all a lot of time =P

IronBass

GUFU had many people like me, but like real life, you only need good soldiers when there's a huge crisis. That huge crisis happened several years ago.

System Wars is nothing now, so that's why GUFU is relatively quiet, and most have moved on.

Nevertheless, good arguments don't necessarily close discussions. Most people are too proud to admit defeat :P

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

He didn't bother to ask for any quotes, but I remember quoting Kevin VanOrd in The Witcher 2 hype thread directly from his twitter a few times.

I really don't want to go searching for that though. Pretty much everyone in the thread followed his twitter updates ( e.g. I really wish developers would know the difference between challenging or cheap", "THAT'S the ending?!" off the top of my head. )

FrozenLiquid

In the same manner, while you can provide negative remarks while Kevin was reviewing The Witcher 2, IronBass has provided a positive remark once The Witcher 2 received its score. It is entirely possible that Kevin found some frustrations while playing the game, however, it seems likely, given the remark quoted by IronBass, that all things considered, The Witcher 2 was a fantastic game that deserved its score entirely.

So yes, IronBass's argument is definitely more sound.

And have fun.

edit: cutting down on the theorycrafting.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"].

Aside from that, it's pretty much impossible to know what Kevin VanOrd is thinking without actually being Kevin VanOrd.

FrozenLiquid

That's an appeal to ignorance, my friend :P

No, that's just what you want me to prove -- not what I've said.SkyWard20

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

He didn't bother to ask for any quotes, but I remember quoting Kevin VanOrd in The Witcher 2 hype thread directly from his twitter a few times.

I really don't want to go searching for that though. Pretty much everyone in the thread followed his twitter updates ( e.g. I really wish developers would know the difference between challenging or cheap", "THAT'S the ending?!" off the top of my head. )

SkyWard20

In the same manner, while you can provide negative remarks while Kevin was reviewing The Witcher 2, IronBass has provided a positive remark once The Witcher 2 received its score. It is entirely possible that Kevin found some frustrations while playing the game, however, it seems likely, given the remark quoted by IronBass, that all things considered, The Witcher 2 was a fantastic game that deserved its score entirely.

So yes, IronBass's argument is definitely more sound.

And have fun.

edit: cutting down on the theorycrafting.

First thing is first.

Do not commit sophism. That is a disgusting tactic only reserved for the most vile of arguers. What you've done is removed my argument, found something you could attempt to argue against, and completely disregarded the rest. Deception does not lead to truth, Skyward.

No, my argument does not hinge on Kevin's enjoyment of the game, it isn't even directly related to Kevin and his time with the game. It was about two people providing evidence for two opposing conclusions. One argument was more sound than the other.

Thankyou for the link. However, it further embellishes my argument that IronBass was in the right. Not only did 110million on that page apparently provide counter-evidence to suggest Kevin's impressions were not all doom and gloom, you said yourself that 110million's evidence was not the latest, and by proxy, the most definitive. You, on that page, at the very moment, had a much better argument than 110million.

In the same manner you were correct in pointing out the flaw in 110million's argument, IronBass, with his evidence to suggest contrary to your opinion regarding the matter, is better and more definitive than yours. If you need to change arguing tactics (that is, to disregard IronBass has the better evidence this time around), like I said, it's deception, and you won't look better off the more you dig.

by the end of the year if all 3 of these games make it, I guess it is sort of a three way tie.

The Witcher 2

Skyrim

Dark Souls

TW2 is the most "true" rpg of them, and it is hard not to see why it gets the praise it does, and I love the story :P and the choices you can make.

Skyrim, is sort of a different beast, while I am more and more hesitent to call it an RPG, it seems that they are aiming to make the world really feel alive and breathing, which will go along way, for its likelyhood to win, cut out RPG elements, are rather foreboding tho, anytime someone removes players choice in something, I get mighty suspect, however I can not and will not judge the actual rpg syste min Skyrim before I play it myself, Story is likely going to be rather poor, just like what we are used to in a Bethesta game ;) it is the world rather then the story.

Dark Souls, I still call DS a Roguelike, rather then an RPG, but Ill accept it as a sub genre just fine :P

If it can take what made DS so good, (for me it was the far more mature and dark version of D&Dlore (which it basicly were) and make it bigger, better, and somehow intigrate MP aspects into more things, I would Consider itup right next to TW2 and Skyrim.

Sadly only one of the games are out yet, and a known quantity, by that reasoning alone, I will go with TW2 for the time being.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]No, that's just what you want me to prove -- not what I've said.IronBass

I already explained that a couple of posts ago. And since the Twitter feeds you posted only show he had some complaints about the game (something we already knew, it's on the review), not what we're talking about (if he thinks it barely deserves or it's more than deserving) I'm not going to continue this conversation, because arguing without proof serves little purpose :)

And I've more than exhaustively repeated myself. I disagree that arguing without proof serves little purpose, but the point of this discussion, to me, was never to provide irrefutable evidence for Kevin VanOrd's stance on the Witcher. I've stated my reason for my belief - which is far from providing anything conclusive, as I consider yours to be -- in terms of discussing whether the Witcher 2 barely deserved that score.

If you'd like me to automatically agree with some arbitrary terms along the lines of "provide proof until I'm satisfied, or you're wrong ", well then, prepare to be disappointed. *smug wink*

And I've more than exhaustively repeated myself. I disagree that arguing without proof serves little purpose, but the point of this discussion, to me, was never to provide irrefutable evidence for Kevin VanOrd's stance on the Witcher. I've stated my reason for my belief - which is far from providing anything conclusive, as I consider yours to be -- in terms of discussing whether the Witcher 2 barely deserved that score.

If you'd like me to automatically agree with some arbitrary terms along the lines of "provide proof until I'm satisfied, or you're wrong ", well then, prepare to be disappointed. *smug wink*

SkyWard20

Oh, I amdisappointed. I totally expected that, if youimplied that Kevin-V was lying to us, you had reasonable proof for that. But well, as I said, that's why I decided not to continue arguing. :)

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]And I've more than exhaustively repeated myself. I disagree that arguing without proof serves little purpose, but the point of this discussion, to me, was never to provide irrefutable evidence for Kevin VanOrd's stance on the Witcher. I've stated my reason for my belief - which is far from providing anything conclusive, as I consider yours to be -- in terms of discussing whether the Witcher 2 barely deserved that score.

If you'd like me to automatically agree with some arbitrary terms along the lines of "provide proof until I'm satisfied, or you're wrong ", well then, prepare to be disappointed. *smug wink*

IronBass

Oh, I amdisappointed. I totally expected that, if youimplied that Kevin-V was lying to us, you had reasonable proof for that. But well, as I said, that's why I decided not to continue arguing. :)

Xenoblade!!!

-----

Among the RPG's released/confirmed for release in NA, I'm willing to count out The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings (unmodded) simply because of inventory management and interface. Recipes/formulae having weight, no item mule, can't tell if you already have a recipe/read a book without manually checking, slow description scrolling, etc. all piss me off because the game puts an emphasis on crafting over obtaining money to obtain equipment. All an RPG this year would have to do is not be a pain in the ass and it'll probably beat The Witcher 2 for the award.

I don't think Dark Souls'll do enough to surpass Demon's Souls by a large margin. Dungeon design'll have to surprise me like Super Mario Galaxy 2 did.

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim looks like Oblivion except good. Hope Bethesda does a better job of roaming boss battles than 2K with BioShock's Big Daddies. Also like the open narrative side quests. Then again, Bethesda's known to have buggy games...

If Deus Ex: Human Revolution is even 1/10th as good as the original, it'll win. Is it 1/10th as good? I don't know, I didn't jump on the leaked beta. >.> But yeah, my money's on Deus Ex.

Witcher 2 easily. Not just the best RPG of the year, but best RPG of last decade.

I'm thinking right now that Xenoblade Chronicles and The Last Story stand a great chance. They both look like excellent games.

As soon as I read the title I said in my head "Skyrim.. obviously!" I think it's going to blast the others out of the water ;)

I don't care who wins..just please don't be Mass Effect 3lawlessx

Witcher 2 easily. Not just the best RPG of the year, but best RPG of last decade.

AdrianWerner

S-seriously? I understand people having different opinions, but... :?

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Witcher 2 easily. Not just the best RPG of the year, but best RPG of last decade.

SkyWard20

S-seriously? I understand people having different opinions, but... :?

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Witcher 2 easily. Not just the best RPG of the year, but best RPG of last decade.

GeneralShowzer

S-seriously? I understand people having different opinions, but... :?

It was one of the most enjoyable RPG's for me on the PC, but not one that I definitively think of as 'the best of the last decade'.

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"][QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

S-seriously? I understand people having different opinions, but... :?

SkyWard20

It was one of the most enjoyable RPG's for me on the PC, but not one that I definitively think of as 'the best of the last decade'.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] Yeah, sure Fallout 3 is....GeneralShowzer

It was one of the most enjoyable RPG's for me on the PC, but not one that I definitively think of as 'the best of the last decade'.

Deal with it.

The 91% metacritic score disagrees with you. 91% > 88%

TW2 is probably going to be the best game but games that are multiplat or are on consoles in general do better with sites like this.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] Yeah, sure Fallout 3 is....GeneralShowzer

It was one of the most enjoyable RPG's for me on the PC, but not one that I definitively think of as 'the best of the last decade'.

witcher 2 is incredible

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

It was one of the most enjoyable RPG's for me on the PC, but not one that I definitively think of as 'the best of the last decade'.

SkyWard20

Deal with it.

The 91% metacritic score disagrees with you. 91% > 88%

first of all, metacritic scores mean nothing.

so dont even try and pull that ****

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"]

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] No, it wasn't it was a terrible **** smudge with no redeeming qualities, except a few side quests and the soundtrack.

jettpack

Deal with it.

The 91% metacritic score disagrees with you. 91% > 88%

first of all, metacritic scores mean nothing.

so dont even try and pull that ****

Most people who have played it think it's a great game I think that means something.

I would pick Dragon Age 2, but Skyrim will win it (and probably game of the year too)

My pull is for W2, one of my favorite games ever.

For me personally, either Radiant Historia or Solatorobo: Red the Hunter.

Personal? disgaea 4. Overall: probably Me3 even thouhgh I have no clue why it is accepted as RPG

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Witcher 2 easily. Not just the best RPG of the year, but best RPG of last decade.

SkyWard20

S-seriously? I understand people having different opinions, but... :?

Vampire: Bloodlines would be another good pick, but it took years of fan patches to bring it to level of greatness, so I would rather give a nod to Witcher 2 devs here :)

Witcher 2

This one:

Skyrim or Dark Souls. Leaning towards Skyrim, but I have a feeling I'm going to end up enjoying Dark Souls more.