Who is really holding the industry back?

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

Stupid developers and greedy publishers. Oh, and the sheep that buy bad games because of the hype.

DarkLink77

Are you actually trying to tell people that their taste should be defined by what you think is good and not on what they like? Are you trying to tell me how to spend my money?

Nope. I'm talking about the people who don't know better and buy things because they're popular.

people buy things because they're popular. it's always been like that I'll always be like that. no one has the same interests. us gamers go to gaming websites and forums and watch face-offs and reviews. the majority of the people don't care about that at all, so commercials are their primary info.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Is it consoles? Casuals? Publishers? Devs? Outdated hardware? Gaming sites and zines? Fanbases?

Discuss.

AncientDozer

It seems to me that "consolization" is really just a myth perpetuated by bitter PC fan extremists.AncientDozer

It seems like a lot of people are blaming consumers or publishers. It seems to me that "consolization" is really just a myth perpetuated by bitter PC fan extremists.AncientDozer

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"] The fact that there are multiple platforms

AdrianWerner

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"]It seems like a lot of people are blaming consumers or publishers. It seems to me that "consolization" is really just a myth perpetuated by bitter PC fan extremists.Gauloisess

I disagree. If there wasn't consolization we would have Battlefield 3 with 300 playercap, full dx11 support in all games, very competitive and hardcore oriented games. And my rig here wouldn't stay biting dust because some big group of casuals are to lazy and poor to get into real gaming.

It seems like a lot of people are blaming consumers or publishers. It seems to me that "consolization" is really just a myth perpetuated by bitter PC fan extremists.AncientDozer

Except of course in the real world, consolization can be demonstrated...

Regardless of whether or not consolization exists, can anyone demonstrate to me with proof financially and critically that this is hurting the industry? I don't care about PC gamers mad that there rigs aren't getting full use, that's not what is really holding the industry back.

I don't care about PC gamers mad that there rigs aren't getting full use

ActicEdge

As I've had to say before, PC orientation =\= high end tech/future proofing. It just means PC led design.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"]It seems like a lot of people are blaming consumers or publishers. It seems to me that "consolization" is really just a myth perpetuated by bitter PC fan extremists.Gauloisess

I disagree. If there wasn't consolization we would have Battlefield 3 with 300 playercap, full dx11 support in all games, very competitive and hardcore oriented games. And my rig here wouldn't stay biting dust because some big group of casuals are to lazy and poor to get into real gaming.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"]It seems like a lot of people are blaming consumers or publishers. It seems to me that "consolization" is really just a myth perpetuated by bitter PC fan extremists.Gauloisess

I disagree. If there wasn't consolization we would have Battlefield 3 with 300 playercap, full dx11 support in all games, very competitive and hardcore oriented games. And my rig here wouldn't stay biting dust because some big group of casuals are to lazy and poor to get into real gaming.

what the hell is "real gaming" anyways? what am i doing wrong?

[QUOTE="Gauloisess"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]I agree. If it weren't for consoles and casual gamers, the industry would hardly be known to anyone at all, and move at a snails pace. It would be geared for a very small group and probably die off very quickly.

lazerface216

I disagree. If there wasn't consolization we would have Battlefield 3 with 300 playercap, full dx11 support in all games, very competitive and hardcore oriented games. And my rig here wouldn't stay biting dust because some big group of casuals are to lazy and poor to get into real gaming.

what the hell is "real gaming" anyways? what am i doing wrong?

A combination of everything it's been said in the thread. You can't simply pinpoint one aspect of it, it's impossible.

[QUOTE="Gauloisess"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]I agree. If it weren't for consoles and casual gamers, the industry would hardly be known to anyone at all, and move at a snails pace. It would be geared for a very small group and probably die off very quickly.

lazerface216

I disagree. If there wasn't consolization we would have Battlefield 3 with 300 playercap, full dx11 support in all games, very competitive and hardcore oriented games. And my rig here wouldn't stay biting dust because some big group of casuals are to lazy and poor to get into real gaming.

what the hell is "real gaming" anyways? what am i doing wrong?

I think he means we would actually be getting innovation, lets just take one genre for example eg fps games. Back then 64 players was the norm and some games like planetside were pushing for hundreds of players in a persistent battle map. Now everything is becoming fps games on a tiny map with 16 players, its all rubbing together and becoming the same thing.

[QUOTE="lazerface216"]And this is why PC gamers are viewed as elitist. Not because claim to have and use superior hardware, but they pretend that nobody else games legitimately if they don't play on the PC. It's not a case of "I have better hardware." It's a case of "I have better hardware and you're an idiot for not doing the same." My question is this: If all gamers had a high-end rig, what would these blowhards have to feel superior about?romans828_2002

Quit spreading propaganda, suggesting an entire audience thinks one way is ludicrous.

Kotick.

that is all

[QUOTE="lazerface216"]

[QUOTE="Gauloisess"]

I disagree. If there wasn't consolization we would have Battlefield 3 with 300 playercap, full dx11 support in all games, very competitive and hardcore oriented games. And my rig here wouldn't stay biting dust because some big group of casuals are to lazy and poor to get into real gaming.

NanoMan88

what the hell is "real gaming" anyways? what am i doing wrong?

I think he means we would actually be getting innovation, lets just take one genre for example eg fps games. Back then 64 players was the norm and some games like planetside were pushing for hundreds of players in a persistent battle map. Now everything is becoming fps games on a tiny map with 16 players, its all rubbing together and becoming the same thing.

Quit spreading propaganda, suggesting an entire audience thinks one way is ludicrous.

AnnoyedDragon

No, no, no I don't think the entire crowd thinks this way. Maybe I should have chosen my words better. I wasn't suggesting it was everybody, but it is a mindset that is very prevalent here.

Edit: somehow the quotes got messed up. you'll have to go back to see who really said what.

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

Quit spreading propaganda, suggesting an entire audience thinks one way is ludicrous.

Bigboi500

I cannot take personal offense to absolutely everything said, no one can.

The insults directed at your own group are the ones that stand out the most, but that doesn't mean I only defend PC.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

Quit spreading propaganda, suggesting an entire audience thinks one way is ludicrous.

AnnoyedDragon

I cannot take personal offense to absolutely everything said, no one can.

The insults directed at your own group are the ones that stand out the most, but that doesn't mean I only defend PC.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

Quit spreading propaganda, suggesting an entire audience thinks one way is ludicrous.

AnnoyedDragon

I cannot take personal offense to absolutely everything said, no one can.

The insults directed at your own group are the ones that stand out the most, but that doesn't mean I only defend PC.

Devs trying to copy CoD. And hype.

As a pc gamer i must point my finger at consoles why ??

Consoles are so weak even the ngp is at ps3 level and mobile phones in 2013 will pass consoles in power. Devs want to make money so it is only natural that most games would be multiplat. You want your game to run on consoles 1st cause you know it will run on pc. As a result pc gamers get watered down games ported from console.

Still don't think so look what happened to the mighty crytek when they turned crysis 2 into a console game. Making games on 6 year old hardware and then porting them to pc holds games back. The game engines are there but devs can't use most of the features cause the game would not run on console. Console only gamers may think hey I am just bashing consoles but the hardware is way behind and that is a fact. How can games advance if the hardware is static ??

I just think some groups would be better liked here if they were to police their own kind so to speak. I never see any PC gamers put checks on other PC gamers who call other groups "poor", "not real gamers", "peasants" et cetera.

Bigboi500

Point taken, though I still take issue with accusations being thrown at me, because I'm not "policing" the area.

I don't mean to sound rude or like a complete jerk, but if you don't have that mentality then I didn't insult you, at least not intentionally. I didn't actually insult anybody. I just made a statement that there is a reason why people feel a certain way about PC gamers, and some of the people in the group give legitimacy to the feeling.romans828_2002

Something that is not reserved for the PC crowed, I deal with elitism/hateboyism from the console side on a almost daily basis. This is System Wars, it attracts fanboys of varying degrees on both sides.

As a pc gamer i must point my finger at consoles why ??

Consoles are so weak even the ngp is at ps3 level and mobile phones in 2013 will pass consoles in power. Devs want to make money so it is only natural that most games would be multiplat. You want your game to run on consoles 1st cause you know it will run on pc. As a result pc gamers get watered down games ported from console.

Still don't think so look what happened to the mighty crytek when they turned crysis 2 into a console game. Making games on 6 year old hardware and then porting them to pc holds games back. The game engines are there but devs can't use most of the features cause the game would not run on console. Console only gamers may think hey I am just bashing consoles but the hardware is way behind and that is a fact. How can games advance if the hardware is static ??

Rude_Bwoii

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

I don't care about PC gamers mad that there rigs aren't getting full use

AnnoyedDragon

As I've had to say before, PC orientation =\= high end tech/future proofing. It just means PC led design.

I don't see why of my entire post you picked the most irrelevant part to quote :?

[QUOTE="Rude_Bwoii"]

As a pc gamer i must point my finger at consoles why ??

Consoles are so weak even the ngp is at ps3 level and mobile phones in 2013 will pass consoles in power. Devs want to make money so it is only natural that most games would be multiplat. You want your game to run on consoles 1st cause you know it will run on pc. As a result pc gamers get watered down games ported from console.

Still don't think so look what happened to the mighty crytek when they turned crysis 2 into a console game. Making games on 6 year old hardware and then porting them to pc holds games back. The game engines are there but devs can't use most of the features cause the game would not run on console. Console only gamers may think hey I am just bashing consoles but the hardware is way behind and that is a fact. How can games advance if the hardware is static ??

cainetao11

I truely believe that if the majority of people are fine with games right now tech has absolutely zero reason to progress until the market demands it do so. There is nothing about high end graphics and technology that will make the majority of people more interested in games and people who won't give gaming a chance is literally what is holding the market back from growth. The PC exists and has its own ecosystem that can support tech and such which is fine but those pissed that consoles are holding back PC best understand that if a game as technically underwhelming as Black Ops or even more technically underwhelming a la New Super Mario Bros can sell million upon millions, I don't see what the rush is to want to push more and more technologically stunning games. The vast majority of people DO NOT care. Kirbby, Limbo, donkey Kong, De Blob, Madden, Monster Hunter, Pokemon, Layton, Marvel vs Capcom 3, etc etc, games selling millions of untis without bleeding edge tech. I don't believe in tech as the answer to advance games, game design as a whole can grow without the need of the latest technology.

As a pc gamer i must point my finger at consoles why ??

Rude_Bwoii

As a PC gamer I also place some of the blame on consoles, but for very different reasons than you have. I actually think consoles are too powerful, they are the driving force behind rising development costs each generation.

Hardware on PC advances at a high rate, but software lags behind. It's 2011 and DirectX 10 is still not the minimum graphics API on PC. Developers wait for hardware install bases to establish themselves, which takes years. Steam reports the DX10 ready install base is 60%, so we may see more DX10 native games in the next year or so. In the meantime, developers have plenty of time to test and refine the use of DX10.

Gradual improvement, giving time for the market to digest the introduction of new hardware, until they can finally phase out the old tech.

What's my point? Consoles force the market to absorb new technology on launch. The hardware is thrown out there, and developers have to figure it out, now. This causes development costs to balloon over a very short amount of time, they are even expecting them to double next generation. No gradual absorption, no time to figure out better techniques, brute force introduction.

Development expenses are the primary problem with the games market today. Being the lowest common denominator, consoles set the average costs in a cross platform orientated market. PC hardware surpasses consoles fairly quickly, but it's up to developers whether to utilize it, they could be a Valve or a Crytek. Consoles don't give them that option, as there is only one set of hardware, they must target it.

The long term result is of course going to be the same, regardless of console involvement. Expenses are going to exceed the markets ability to support single platform development. But I see PC's approach of gradual, more easily digestible development as being healthier than consoles "leaps".

I just think some groups would be better liked here if they were to police their own kind so to speak. I never see any PC gamers put checks on other PC gamers who call other groups "poor", "not real gamers", "peasants" et cetera.

Bigboi500

You act like you're doing any different.

Your very post flags you as a hypocrite.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]I just think some groups would be better liked here if they were to police their own kind so to speak. I never see any PC gamers put checks on other PC gamers who call other groups "poor", "not real gamers", "peasants" et cetera.

N30F3N1X

You act like you're doing any different.

Your very post flags you as a hypocrite.

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]I just think some groups would be better liked here if they were to police their own kind so to speak. I never see any PC gamers put checks on other PC gamers who call other groups "poor", "not real gamers", "peasants" et cetera.

Bigboi500

You act like you're doing any different.

Your very post flags you as a hypocrite.

That's not what I said.

I bet you're not going to step in any discussion and do what you said PC gamers should do towards other PC gamers.

The very fact that you're pointing your finger at PC gamers as a whole proves this.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

You act like you're doing any different.

Your very post flags you as a hypocrite.

N30F3N1X

That's not what I said.

I bet you're not going to step in any discussion and do what you said PC gamers should do towards other PC gamers.

The very fact that you're pointing your finger at PC gamers as a whole proves this.

Consolites (aka fanboys)

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]How so? Everyone who knows me here knows I don't throw around insults to other posters unless they start being indignant first.

Bigboi500

That's not what I said.

I bet you're not going to step in any discussion and do what you said PC gamers should do towards other PC gamers.

The very fact that you're pointing your finger at PC gamers as a whole proves this.

Again you are being a hypocrite. PS3/360 owners are much more snobbish to the WII only owners.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

That's not what I said.

I bet you're not going to step in any discussion and do what you said PC gamers should do towards other PC gamers.

The very fact that you're pointing your finger at PC gamers as a whole proves this.

USS_Data

Again you are being a hypocrite. PS3/360 owners are much more snobbish to the WII only owners.

[QUOTE="USS_Data"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Nope. I always go out of my way to stick it to fanboys and trolls, but as I said I rarely if ever see PC gamers criticize their own for snobbish behavior.

Bigboi500

Again you are being a hypocrite. PS3/360 owners are much more snobbish to the WII only owners.

Then why are pc gamers seen as elitists for pointing out they have better hardware and consoles are holding them are back while the sub-hd fanboys do the same thing to WII owners? :roll:

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="USS_Data"]

Again you are being a hypocrite. PS3/360 owners are much more snobbish to the WII only owners.

USS_Data

Then why are pc gamers seen as elitists for pointing out they have better hardware and consoles are holding them are back while the sub-hd fanboys do the same thing to WII owners? :roll:

[QUOTE="USS_Data"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]That doesn't make me a hypocrit. :| I always defend the Wii from all the ignorance spewed against it.

Bigboi500

Then why are pc gamers seen as elitists for pointing out they have better hardware and consoles are holding them are back while the sub-hd fanboys do the same thing to WII owners? :roll:

You never see me calling console gamers poor since they spent more money in the long run then a pc gamer.

I don't find the term peasants all that harsh to the 360/ps3 owners since all noble men had peasants in the middle ages.

I just liked the days when consoles had their own games and the pc it's own games better. Now they keep butchering our games just to please people who only want to press one button to win a game and ofcourse don't want to use their brain, perfect example of this is Dragon Age 2. A series which could have been great but got butchered because console owners complained combat was to boring and difficult.

You never see me calling console gamers poor since they spent more money in the long run then a pc gamer.

I don't find the term peasants all that harsh to the 360/ps3 owners since all noble men had peasants in the middle ages.

I just liked the days when consoles had their own games and the pc it's own games better. Now they keep butchering our games just to please people who only want to press one button to win a game and ofcourse don't want to use their brain, perfect example of this is Dragon Age 2. A series which could have been great but got butchered because console owners complained combat was to boring and difficult.

USS_Data

I still think DA2 is a great game despite being simplified. I'm having a blast playing it right now.

in my own view of "holding the industry back" I'd say it's the demand and delivery of cutting edge graphics over real interaction with game worlds. who really cares if BF3 is a graphics king? why? interviews should be asking tough questions about how deep and unscripted the destruction is.

in my own view of "holding the industry back" I'd say it's the demand and delivery of cutting edge graphics over real interaction with game worlds. who really cares if BF3 is a graphics king? why? interviews should be asking tough questions about how deep and unscripted the destruction is.

Mordred19