Why can't JRPGs be done right this gen?

PSOne generation had Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and a mess of other AAA JRPs.

PS2 generation had FFX, XII, Dragon Quest VIII, and a mess of other AAA JRPGS.

**Keep in mind that if you didn't like these games personally... it doesn't matter because the general consensus is that they are AAA titles**

Where are the incredible JRPG this gen? EL ZILCHO, and there were plenty of JRPGs released so far (AND NO, DEMON SOULS DOES NOT COUNT. OTHER THAN IT BEING DEVELOPED IN JAPAN, IT'S NOT TRADITIONALLY A JRPG). Don't get me wrong, there definitely were GOOD - GREAT JRPGs this gen (for ex. Tales of Vesp, Valkyria, Eternal Sonata), but nothing that stood out as incredible, or "AAA."

FFXIII... say what you will, but honestly it's most likely NOT going to be AAA, and has a very high chance of getting a 7 score. I really haven't heard one good thing about the game besides the graphics and the music. Don't build yourself up... it won't be that good. Although Famitsu seemed to like it, Japan in general doesn't.

What pisses me off is the most is MistWalker. Lost Odyssey, personally to me was awesome. All they had to do was take out the darn random encounters, and stupid pointless/frustrating/irritating/unavoidable mini-games, and it would have been a AAA title. I mean c'mon, what were they thinking.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG? When are we getting that JRPG that will represent the genre this gen? I really don't know, because FFXIII just seems to be out of the question, and WhiteKnight looks horrible. Mistwalker's next game will be on Wii... so no dice there.

WHen is it? FFvXIII maybe? I think that's all there is left... :|

the market isn't nearly as big anymore, so they all got downsized to handheld games

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

Bigboi500

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

leadernator

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

Why does that matter? They were released during this gen so they should count.

FFXIII looks like solid AAA quality. Not a traditional JRPG but great nonetheless.

I personally think Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia & Graces, Eternal Sonata and Valkyria Chronicles are the only flat out great console JRPGs this gen.

Pretty sad really, this gen is on its 5th year.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

leadernator

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

the market isn't nearly as big anymore, so they all got downsized to handheld games

88mphSlayer

It's big in Japan still, that's sure. That also explains why Nintendo's domination is ruining a few things...

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]

the market isn't nearly as big anymore, so they all got downsized to handheld games

leadernator

It's big in Japan still, that's sure. That also explains why Nintendo's domination is ruining a few things...

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

zarshack

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

And who made up that rule? It clearly does not make sense, considering the fact that you wouldn't hold a PS2 game up to the same standards as a game on 360 or PS3. If that same exact game with no changes whatsoever was ported to PS3, you wouldn't be seeing the same critical acclaim.

FFXIII... say what you will, but honestly it's most likely NOT going to be AAA, and has a very high chance of getting a 7 score. I really haven't heard one good thing about the game besides the graphics and the music. Don't build yourself up... it won't be that good. Although Famitsu seemed to like it, Japan in general doesn't.

What pisses me off is the most is MistWalker. Lost Odyssey, personally to me was awesome. All they had to do was take out the darn random encounters, and stupid pointless/frustrating/irritating/unavoidable mini-games, and it would have been a AAA title. I mean c'mon, what were they thinking.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG? When are we getting that JRPG that will represent the genre this gen? I really don't know, because FFXIII just seems to be out of the question, and WhiteKnight looks horrible. Mistwalker's next game will be on Wii... so no dice there.

WHen is it? FFvXIII maybe? I think that's all there is left... :|

leadernator

FFXIII has garnered a lot of praise over it's battle system. The game scored a 9.25 recently from Game Informer, which tends to be tough on JRPGs. It's definitely a great game, and it has some of the best gameplay in the series. So basically, we're going to get one ... in March. As for Japan, it's been very well received. Famitsu readers voted it the greatest game of all time and on Rakuten (Japanese shopping site like Amazon, with a more reliable rating system) the average score is 4.45/5.

Also, look forward to Resonance of Fate. It looks to be of high quality as well and it's coming out this spring.

Atter that, who knows?

[QUOTE="zarshack"]

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

leadernator

And who made up that rule? It clearly does not make sense

Yes it does. The generation is a time frame within new generation console releases. Any game release within that time frame is considered part of that gen.

Well most of the good ones only come out on hand helds now a days. I think FFXIII will be a decent tiles (well I hope it will be)Off topic: Atlus has done a great with recent MegaTen and Persona titles this gen.

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

jrhawk42

evolution =/= nonlinearity.

FFXIII has garnered a lot of praise over it's battle system. The game scored a 9.25 recently from Game Informer, which tends to be tough on JRPGs. It's definitely a great game, and it has some of the best gameplay in the series. So basically, we're going to get one ... in March. As for Japan, it's been very well received. Famitsu readers voted it the greatest game of all time and on Rakuten (Japanese shopping site like Amazon, with a more reliable rating system) the average score is 4.45/5.

Also, look forward to Resonance of Fate. It looks to be of high quality as well and it's coming out this spring.

Atter that, who knows?

hakanakumono

The rest of the White Knight Chronicles series! Woooh! Yay... alright.... *sigh*

^ I'm glad I never got my hopes up for that game.

Anyways, TC, you have to understand that its very popular to hate on JRPGs these days.

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

jrhawk42

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]

the market isn't nearly as big anymore, so they all got downsized to handheld games

Bigboi500

It's big in Japan still, that's sure. That also explains why Nintendo's domination is ruining a few things...

Wouldn't you say that Japanese developers aren't quite "up to speed" with American devs. You have MGS4... which is amazing, Demon Souls (which is more of a love it/hate it type game... I loved it if you were wondering where I stand)... and uh.... well I'm sure I'm missing a few. (ok ok, there's Bayonetta)

It's easy to name excellent games that Western/European devs are doing. Gears, Uncharted 2, Mass Effect, Little Big Planet... really, this gen is all about devs outside of Japan so far. I don't really think you can argue that.

What's really big in Japan? Wii and DS. PS3 and 360 combined doesn't even make a dent in Nintendo's success over there. Now, considering development costs... if you were a Japanese dev, would it make more sense to you to spend so much money developing a PS3 title when the HUGE user base is centered around Nintendo, where development costs on that system will be cut in Half (even moreso). You tell me. Seriously.

Why is Dragon Quest IX on the DS? That's a first... to see a huge title like that exclusively on Handheld :| Monster Hunter anyone? ANYONE?

I think it's because the genre is really bogged down in chliches. No JRPG in a long time has shown me something that I thought was new or unique. To be honest, most JRPGs nowadays seem very last gen. Most of the stuff gives me kind of a "seen this before, and it was better in game X" type of feeling. If they could break away from their streotypes, I think they'd be great.

Not to say I haven't enjoyed a few of them, like Lost Odyssey, but they just don't feel unique anymore.

Not claiming to be an expert on JRPG's, though. Just my 2 cents.

I think it's because the genre is really bogged down in chliches. No JRPG in a long time has shown me something that I thought was new or unique. To be honest, most JRPGs nowadays seem very last gen. Most of the stuff gives me kind of a "seen this before, and it was better in game X" type of feeling. If they could break away from their streotypes, I think they'd be great.

Not to say I haven't enjoyed a few of them, like Lost Odyssey, but they just don't feel unique anymore.

Not claiming to be an expert on JRPG's, though. Just my 2 cents.

DarkLink77

Resonance of Fate is pretty unique.

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

Bigboi500

So what is your take on it?

I agree and disagree with that article. JRPGs don't need to evolve too much. Mistwalke pretty much had a AAA game in there hands (LO)... they just screwed it up with the random battles (something that was considered a thing of the past LAST gen), and lame mini-games.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

I think it's because the genre is really bogged down in chliches. No JRPG in a long time has shown me something that I thought was new or unique. To be honest, most JRPGs nowadays seem very last gen. Most of the stuff gives me kind of a "seen this before, and it was better in game X" type of feeling. If they could break away from their streotypes, I think they'd be great.

Not to say I haven't enjoyed a few of them, like Lost Odyssey, but they just don't feel unique anymore.

Not claiming to be an expert on JRPG's, though. Just my 2 cents.

hakanakumono

Resonance of Fate is pretty unique.

evolution =/= nonlinearity.

hakanakumono

nobody said anything about nonlinearity

Sorry but a rivals biased views on the opposition really doesn't sum up much of anything.

Bigboi500

rivals??? Did I miss something where Bioware was competing w/ every jrpg developer?

[QUOTE="zarshack"]

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

leadernator

And who made up that rule? It clearly does not make sense, considering the fact that you wouldn't hold a PS2 game up to the same standards as a game on 360 or PS3. If that same exact game with no changes whatsoever was ported to PS3, you wouldn't be seeing the same critical acclaim.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

It's big in Japan still, that's sure. That also explains why Nintendo's domination is ruining a few things...

leadernator

Wouldn't you say that Japanese developers aren't quite "up to speed" with American devs. You have MGS4... which is amazing, Demon Souls (which is more of a love it/hate it type game... I loved it if you were wondering where I stand)... and uh.... well I'm sure I'm missing a few. (ok ok, there's Bayonetta)

It's easy to name excellent games that Western/European devs are doing. Gears, Uncharted 2, Mass Effect, Little Big Planet... really, this gen is all about devs outside of Japan so far. I don't really think you can argue that.

What's really big in Japan? Wii and DS. PS3 and 360 combined doesn't even make a dent in Nintendo's success over there. Now, considering development costs... if you were a Japanese dev, would it make more sense to you to spend so much money developing a PS3 title when the HUGE user base is centered around Nintendo, where development costs on that system will be cut in Half (even moreso). You tell me. Seriously.

Why is Dragon Quest IX on the DS? That's a first... to see a huge title like that exclusively on Handheld :| Monster Hunter anyone? ANYONE?

Big budget blockbusters that provide cinematic experiences are not the only way to make a good game you know. Some of us can appreciate what both the East and West are doing, and doing differently I might add.

FFXIII looks like solid AAA quality. Not a traditional JRPG but great nonetheless.

I personally think Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia & Graces, Eternal Sonata and Valkyria Chronicles are the only flat out great console JRPGs this gen.

Pretty sad really, this gen is on its 5th year.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

leadernator

So what is your take on it?

I agree and disagree with that article. JRPGs don't need to evolve too much. Mistwalke pretty much had a AAA game in there hands (LO)... they just screwed it up with the random battles (something that was considered a thing of the past LAST gen), and lame mini-games.

Turn-based battles are perfectly fine if a lot of thought is put into them and all the spells and abilities are actually necessary to success. The ones that have you simply press 'x' or 'a' repeatedly with little to no though are the ones that disappoint me the most.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

Gr33nHippo

And that's completely fine. I was saying myself that LO is one of my favorite games this gen... but unfortunately we are talking about the "public eye" in this thread.

What makes a JRPG AAA? Easy. It has to have a memorable cast, with a main character that is interesting to play as (that also has some sort of cool factor). The story is basically the same with all JRPGs... what makes the difference in the story is the excellent cast of characters, and their dilemmas in your everyday JRPG story. Pacing is HUGE, and is definitely more evident this gen that it was in previous ones. The gameplay has to be somewhat balanced, and not so much feel as a chore (like the Star Ocean series). Music has to be exceptional (you'll be surprised how important this is). Lastly, you have to iron out gameplay elements that worked in the 16 bit days (random encounters, pointless mini-games).

That's my opinion on it :)

**EDIT: I forgot about graphics/style/scale. You need that sense of epicness, especially in current-gen titles where we expect it)**

the market isn't nearly as big anymore, so they all got downsized to handheld games

88mphSlayer

The market is just as big. Japan, however, fully embraced handheld devices as their favorite platforms for this generation. Being that Japanese RPGs are supposed to sell in, duh, Japan, developers went where their main audience went.

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

Bigboi500

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]

the market isn't nearly as big anymore, so they all got downsized to handheld games

LordQuorthon

The market is just as big. Japan, however, fully embraced handheld devices as their favorite platforms for this generation. Being that Japanese RPGs are supposed to sell in, duh, Japan, developers went where their main audience went.

well i'm sure the core jrpg audience is profitable

but i'm mostly talking about the non-core audiences that get bored of genres and move on, the kind of people that justify companies like squareenix dumping tons of money into massive projects like FF13 who may goto other genres for fun if there's no outstanding next-gen jrpg's for awhile, i mean it's like golf without Tiger Woods, without that lead-in for the genre it's hard for some devs to justify the costlier next-gen game-making process when they could just make games for DS/PSP and make a buttload of easy profit

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml

that'll pretty much sum it up.

MrGrimFandango

Just like ever since choose your own adventure novels were invented, "linear" story novels have become outdated and have fallen out of favor with the literary community. Oh wait ...

Anyways, actually JRPGs initially offered more player input but with improvements in technology less focus on player input was made and more focus was put on cinematic cutscenes. In other words, JRPGs have evolved - they've just evolved in the complete opposite direction as WRPGs.

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

[QUOTE="zarshack"]They come out this gen, the fact that they are on old hardware is irrelevent.

zarshack

And who made up that rule? It clearly does not make sense, considering the fact that you wouldn't hold a PS2 game up to the same standards as a game on 360 or PS3. If that same exact game with no changes whatsoever was ported to PS3, you wouldn't be seeing the same critical acclaim.

Point is, you would probably enjoy P4 more if it was made for PS3 or 360, using those consoles capabilities (if done right that is).

[QUOTE="Shirokishi_"]

FFXIII looks like solid AAA quality. Not a traditional JRPG but great nonetheless.

I personally think Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia & Graces, Eternal Sonata and Valkyria Chronicles are the only flat out great console JRPGs this gen.

Pretty sad really, this gen is on its 5th year.

bigboss5ak

But why wouldn't you want a game in the same caliber as FF7? FYI, Xenogears is pretty much in the same level as FF7... it got like a 9.5 here? Every credible review pretty much raved about that game... it had the critical acclaim, and it sold fairly well here (it is a PSOne GH title).

Sure, you were satisfied by LO... but that doesn't mean you could have had way more out of it. Like I was saying, Lost Odyssey's set up was perfect... there were just too many primitive and annoying things about the game. It could have been way more than it was simply by removing a few things.

PSOne generation had Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and a mess of other AAA JRPs.

PS2 generation had FFX, XII, Dragon Quest VIII, and a mess of other AAA JRPGS.

**Keep in mind that if you didn't like these games personally... it doesn't matter because the general consensus is that they are AAA titles**

Where are the incredible JRPG this gen? EL ZILCHO, and there were plenty of JRPGs released so far (AND NO, DEMON SOULS DOES NOT COUNT. OTHER THAN IT BEING DEVELOPED IN JAPAN, IT'S NOT TRADITIONALLY A JRPG). Don't get me wrong, there definitely were GOOD - GREAT JRPGs this gen (for ex. Tales of Vesp, Valkyria, Eternal Sonata), but nothing that stood out as incredible, or "AAA."

FFXIII... say what you will, but honestly it's most likely NOT going to be AAA, and has a very high chance of getting a 7 score. I really haven't heard one good thing about the game besides the graphics and the music. Don't build yourself up... it won't be that good. Although Famitsu seemed to like it, Japan in general doesn't.

What pisses me off is the most is MistWalker. Lost Odyssey, personally to me was awesome. All they had to do was take out the darn random encounters, and stupid pointless/frustrating/irritating/unavoidable mini-games, and it would have been a AAA title. I mean c'mon, what were they thinking.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG? When are we getting that JRPG that will represent the genre this gen? I really don't know, because FFXIII just seems to be out of the question, and WhiteKnight looks horrible. Mistwalker's next game will be on Wii... so no dice there.

WHen is it? FFvXIII maybe? I think that's all there is left... :|

leadernator

The emergence of the western rpg, really. More customizable, realistic characters, and a not-so-anime look resonates better with most people. The linear gameplay in a lot of JRPG's is another negative when most western rpg's offer an expansive non-linear world to explore.

Games like Dragon Age: Origins, Fallout 3, Mass Effect etc. really show how outdated the JRPG formula really is. They need to adapt or they will just continue in the downward trend.

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

When you look at the average score for ME2(9.6),for example and state that no JRPG as reached that score before,you kind of realise where the trend is going.

I guess what I´m saying is that people are realising that they can experience RPG´s with more depth and complexity(ok,ME2 aside on this one :) ),fantastic non linear stories and massive replay value(multiple endings,overlooked quests,alignment changes,etc...).

It doesn´t help the fact that most of it´s characters are androgynous teenagers(also with Dragon Ball Z haircuts :D) crying and trying to be emotional,when what they are being is cheesy.It worked in FF7 with the death of Aeris and all,but now I feel that (mainly the FF series)they just have to put some emotional "crap" to go on with the story as an obligation.Maybe the story herself wasn´t so good to begin with...

Of course rabid JRPG´s fans will not agree with me,and that´s only natural,but if you guys(and girls)analise this very thoroughly you will see that maybe I have a point.

Because SquareEnix gutted everything that made their old JPRG's great. They took a great series which sold well, and then what did they do? Released a f-ing MMO. Massive failage. They began the path of dumbed-down bishie boys, which alienate Western audiences.

Meanwhile they have a red-hot IP sitting on the shelf collecting dust. FF7 remake would sell 10 million more, but SE has no business sense at all.

Well this generation we got only 3 great JRPGs Lost odyssey, ToV and Valkyria chronicles and the rest are some above average or somehow good JRPGs like Eternal sonata (Overrated JRPG it was good but far from being great), WKC (Good JRPG but it got many flaws and was underrated), Star ocean 4,.....etc .

WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG?

leadernator

Points to Nintendo DS's library.

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG?

Points to Nintendo DS's library.

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG?

Burning-Sludge

Points to Nintendo DS's library.

Sadly i cant agree DS JRPGs library got quantity but not quality most of the JRPGs on DS are way below average only few of them are quality JRPGs.

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG?

Kashiwaba

Points to Nintendo DS's library.

Sadly i cant agree DS JRPGs library got quantity but not quality most of the JRPGs on DS are way below average only few of them are quality JRPGs.

I doubt you know where averge is.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

Points to Nintendo DS's library.

Burning-Sludge

Sadly i cant agree DS JRPGs library got quantity but not quality most of the JRPGs on DS are way below average only few of them are quality JRPGs.

I doubt you know where averge is.

Well who knows.

its a huge conspiracy. its why JAL and toyota and other japanese companies are not doing well. no official word on whats the cause, but early speculation points towards angry polar bears riding t-rex's with laser guns