Why can't JRPGs be done right this gen?

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

When you look at the average score for ME2(9.6),for example and state that no JRPG as reached that score before,you kind of realise where the trend is going.

I guess what I´m saying is that people are realising that they can experience RPG´s with more depth and complexity(ok,ME2 aside on this one :) ),fantastic non linear stories and massive replay value(multiple endings,overlooked quests,alignment changes,etc...).

It doesn´t help the fact that most of it´s characters are androgynous teenagers(also with Dragon Ball Z haircuts :D) crying and trying to be emotional,when what they are being is cheesy.It worked in FF7 with the death of Aeris and all,but now I feel that (mainly the FF series)they just have to put some emotional "crap" to go on with the story as an obligation.Maybe the story herself wasn´t so good to begin with...

Of course rabid JRPG´s fans will not agree with me,and that´s only natural,but if you guys(and girls)analise this very thoroughly you will see that maybe I have a point.

Arach666

I love it how some seem to think a few Western media-centric reviewers opinions = the general attitude of the gaming community overall.

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

When you look at the average score for ME2(9.6),for example and state that no JRPG as reached that score before,you kind of realise where the trend is going.

I guess what I´m saying is that people are realising that they can experience RPG´s with more depth and complexity(ok,ME2 aside on this one :) ),fantastic non linear stories and massive replay value(multiple endings,overlooked quests,alignment changes,etc...).

It doesn´t help the fact that most of it´s characters are androgynous teenagers(also with Dragon Ball Z haircuts :D) crying and trying to be emotional,when what they are being is cheesy.It worked in FF7 with the death of Aeris and all,but now I feel that (mainly the FF series)they just have to put some emotional "crap" to go on with the story as an obligation.Maybe the story herself wasn´t so good to begin with...

Of course rabid JRPG´s fans will not agree with me,and that´s only natural,but if you guys(and girls)analise this very thoroughly you will see that maybe I have a point.

I love it how some seem to think a few Western media-centric reviewers opinions = the general attitude of the gaming community overall.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

When you look at the average score for ME2(9.6),for example and state that no JRPG as reached that score before,you kind of realise where the trend is going.

I guess what I´m saying is that people are realising that they can experience RPG´s with more depth and complexity(ok,ME2 aside on this one :) ),fantastic non linear stories and massive replay value(multiple endings,overlooked quests,alignment changes,etc...).

It doesn´t help the fact that most of it´s characters are androgynous teenagers(also with Dragon Ball Z haircuts :D) crying and trying to be emotional,when what they are being is cheesy.It worked in FF7 with the death of Aeris and all,but now I feel that (mainly the FF series)they just have to put some emotional "crap" to go on with the story as an obligation.Maybe the story herself wasn´t so good to begin with...

Of course rabid JRPG´s fans will not agree with me,and that´s only natural,but if you guys(and girls)analise this very thoroughly you will see that maybe I have a point.

texasgoldrush

I love it how some seem to think a few Western media-centric reviewers opinions = the general attitude of the gaming community overall.

Meh Keep your opinion for yourself.

KOTOR was a landmark game that allowed WRPGs to breakthrough in the console market. Yes its better than FFX and DQVIIItexasgoldrush

I enjoyed KOTOR as well, but the characters were not as interesting as they were in the games I mentioned.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] KOTOR was a landmark game that allowed WRPGs to breakthrough in the console market. Yes its better than FFX and DQVIIIBigboi500

I enjoyed KOTOR as well, but the characters were not as interesting as they were in the games I mentioned.

Star Wars > Everything

It has been scientifically proven

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] KOTOR was a landmark game that allowed WRPGs to breakthrough in the console market. Yes its better than FFX and DQVIIItutt3r

I enjoyed KOTOR as well, but the characters were not as interesting as they were in the games I mentioned.

Star Wars > Everything

It has been scientifically proven

[QUOTE="tutt3r"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"] I strongly disagree good sir. You might have enjoyed it more but that certainly doesn't make it so for everyone else.

I enjoyed KOTOR as well, but the characters were not as interesting as they were in the games I mentioned.

methinksyou

Star Wars > Everything

It has been scientifically proven

its just a joke...

and btw if ur logic is right then since final fantasy X >> demon soul's and persona 3 >> Valkyria chronicles then taht means no good jrpg's have come out either. please put away your trolling alt account and go away

[QUOTE="tutt3r"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"] I strongly disagree good sir. You might have enjoyed it more but that certainly doesn't make it so for everyone else.

I enjoyed KOTOR as well, but the characters were not as interesting as they were in the games I mentioned.

methinksyou

Star Wars > Everything

It has been scientifically proven

[QUOTE="methinksyou"][QUOTE="tutt3r"]

Star Wars > Everything

It has been scientifically proven

tutt3r

its just a joke...

and btw if ur logic is right then since final fantasy X >> demon soul's and persona 3 >> Valkyria chronicles then taht means no good jrpg's have come out either. please put away your trolling alt account and go away

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

Sadly i cant agree DS JRPGs library got quantity but not quality most of the JRPGs on DS are way below average only few of them are quality JRPGs.

Kashiwaba

I doubt you know where average is.

Well who knows.

Someone who plays RPGs from a verity of companies rather than segregating themselves to just Square-Enix and Sony.

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

I doubt you know where average is.

Burning-Sludge

Well who knows.

Someone who plays RPGs from a verity of companies rather than segregating themselves to just Square-Enix and Sony.

Well then I know since I do this.

[QUOTE="tutt3r"]

[QUOTE="methinksyou"] Where is the demonstration? Link plzmethinksyou

its just a joke...

and btw if ur logic is right then since final fantasy X >> demon soul's and persona 3 >> Valkyria chronicles then taht means no good jrpg's have come out either. please put away your trolling alt account and go away

here scientific proof

1. DS

2. Wait for the releases of Tales of Graces(Namco Bandai), Dragon Quest X(Square Enix), Xenoblade (Monolith) and The Final Story (Mistwalker)

3. You don't like random encounters but cry for a JRPG "done right"? For the lulz.

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

When you look at the average score for ME2(9.6),for example and state that no JRPG as reached that score before,you kind of realise where the trend is going.

I guess what I´m saying is that people are realising that they can experience RPG´s with more depth and complexity(ok,ME2 aside on this one :) ),fantastic non linear stories and massive replay value(multiple endings,overlooked quests,alignment changes,etc...).

It doesn´t help the fact that most of it´s characters are androgynous teenagers(also with Dragon Ball Z haircuts :D) crying and trying to be emotional,when what they are being is cheesy.It worked in FF7 with the death of Aeris and all,but now I feel that (mainly the FF series)they just have to put some emotional "crap" to go on with the story as an obligation.Maybe the story herself wasn´t so good to begin with...

Of course rabid JRPG´s fans will not agree with me,and that´s only natural,but if you guys(and girls)analise this very thoroughly you will see that maybe I have a point.

Bigboi500

I love it how some seem to think a few Western media-centric reviewers opinions = the general attitude of the gaming community overall.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

When you look at the average score for ME2(9.6),for example and state that no JRPG as reached that score before,you kind of realise where the trend is going.

I guess what I´m saying is that people are realising that they can experience RPG´s with more depth and complexity(ok,ME2 aside on this one :) ),fantastic non linear stories and massive replay value(multiple endings,overlooked quests,alignment changes,etc...).

It doesn´t help the fact that most of it´s characters are androgynous teenagers(also with Dragon Ball Z haircuts :D) crying and trying to be emotional,when what they are being is cheesy.It worked in FF7 with the death of Aeris and all,but now I feel that (mainly the FF series)they just have to put some emotional "crap" to go on with the story as an obligation.Maybe the story herself wasn´t so good to begin with...

Of course rabid JRPG´s fans will not agree with me,and that´s only natural,but if you guys(and girls)analise this very thoroughly you will see that maybe I have a point.

Arach666

I love it how some seem to think a few Western media-centric reviewers opinions = the general attitude of the gaming community overall.

It's not like JRPGs will ever be recognized for any accomplishments because the west has their "nonlinear" goggles on.

[QUOTE="Arach666"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]So you don't find bald space marines with the "tougher than thou" attitude also annoying? Kotor was the best RPG of last gen huh? Did you forget about Dragon Quest VIII or Final Fantasy X somehow?

I love it how some seem to think a few Western media-centric reviewers opinions = the general attitude of the gaming community overall.

hakanakumono

It's not like JRPGs will ever be recognized for any accomplishments because the west has their "nonlinear" goggles on.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"] No,I didn´t forgot DQ or FFX. I know that in japan they are a lot more relevant than Kotor,but in the west the RPG with most GOTY awards last gen was Kotor.Also,imo,if it counts as last gen(since it came out on the PS2)the best JRPG I´ve played was Persona 4. Now that was a refreshing change in JRPG´s and the only one I cared tofinish since Shining Force 3 in 1997. Depends.Wich space marines are you refering to?The ones in Mass Effect 2? If so(regarding shepard,the main character),that remark makes no sense. I can be agressive and all though,as you state,if I folow some renegade options in the game. Or I can be the exact oposite as a paragon. Were ME2 a JRPG,I wouldn´t have the chance to do so.Decisions,something that JRPG´s lack. Western media centric reviewers?You mean the reviewers that give japanese games great scores and GOTY awards? Or need I remind you of the japanese press,that basically doesn´t care about western games,their top lists of best games ever are all about japanese games only? Should I trust their narrow minded opinion?Japan,when regarding videogames,is too ethnocentric to be taken seriously by western gamers.Their opinion is completely biased,unlike here in the west were japanese made games like Zeldas(mainly ocarina),Marios,Resident Evil,Ico and Shadow of colossus(2 games that I actually love)FF games,Metal Gear Solid games among many others are praised around here. I wonder why seminal games like Doom,Starcraft,Deus Ex,Half Life,Diablo,Baldur´s Gate 2,GTA games etc are overlooked in japan...I really wonder... Then again,maybe I don´t.Arach666

It's not like JRPGs will ever be recognized for any accomplishments because the west has their "nonlinear" goggles on.

I personally hate RPGs with several endings I prefer them as they are now they should just bring better stories and improve combat styles.

It's because gamers these days want instant gratification and their hands holded, also, they can't handle having to plan ahead in turn based battles because, well, you know, its so 'last gen' or 8/16 bit eraish.

Personally I miss the days of the Phantasy Star quadrilogy/Shining series, I think the closest I've come to that would be WKC, but then again that is still only controlling 1 character only anyway.

Heh, I also remember when RPGs actually had a definite ending when the credits ran.

The transition to handhelds, plus Square Enix's comments on towns in JRPGs being expensive to make to a high quality, suggests that cost is at least partly responsible for this problem.

JRPGs have allot of varying content, so they undoubtedly have high content development costs.

[QUOTE="Arach666"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It's not like JRPGs will ever be recognized for any accomplishments because the west has their "nonlinear" goggles on.

Kashiwaba

I personally hate RPGs with several endings I prefer them as they are now they should just bring better stories and improve combat styles.

PS1 was tied with SNES because of all the amazing rpgs it had on it.

This gen there is not as many.. BUT... the xbox360 had Lost Odyssey which was simply amazing, so that kind of makes up for it. I also enjoyed Last Remnant on PC, Eternal Sonata and Tales Of Vesperia.

Not to mention there are some awesome jrpgs on teh DS

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

zarshack

You didn't read my post did you... plus P3 and P4 are PS2 games, are they not?

[QUOTE="Kashiwaba"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It's not like JRPGs will ever be recognized for any accomplishments because the west has their "nonlinear" goggles on.

Arach666

I personally hate RPGs with several endings I prefer them as they are now they should just bring better stories and improve combat styles.

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

Bigboi500

^ I'm glad I never got my hopes up for that game.

Anyways, TC, you have to understand that its very popular to hate on JRPGs these days.

hakanakumono

That aside. I wonder if the japanese say the same thingsabout WRPGs as we complain about JRPGs?

I think its just a matter of style. I mean, people complain about how JRPGs score so high there, and yet WRPGs in the West score so high here in the West. Its all a matter of opinion I guess, and believe our not,some people just like the style of JRPGs and the evolved turnbase system they keep messing around with.

The main reason I think (as stated alot in this thread).

is that they really offer very little that is new, It is not that JRPGS are bad, I think they are quite good, but I too see some problems with the genre.

WHen the west was first exposed to them, they were something odd, unique and different, but each gen since then we ahve been swamped with cookie cutter variations on the exact same concept.

So they began to feel stale, uninspired, more of the same... (it is not completely true sinse games like Persona feels fresh, and interresting).

They ahve in a sense become generic, you can even see what the characters are supposed to be when you see them first time (what role in the story they take).

I blame the fear of taking risks in the industry, apart from JRPGS, I think ww2 games in general, and modern war games are headed down the same path.

Gamers get fatigued aswell you know ;)

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

Arach666

To be sure, there is Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls 4, and Fable (I suppose The Witcher is technically "eastern" if you consider Poland to be "east"). But generally speaking, in the west we don't have a lot of WRPG games or developers -- what we have, though, are a few really good ones.

Because they get outshined by WRPGs. IronBass

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

JRPG´s were(ok,they still are at some extent)massively popular on consoles because the main WRPG´s games/series were basically PC exclusives.

The biggest problem for JRPG´s is called SW: The Knights of the old Republic. First high profile WRPG(as far as I can remember)to have a console release and automatically the best console RPG that gen(if you look at the scores and the GOTY awards anyway).

After that,almost every high profile WRPG is released on consoles as well(minus The Witcher,another superb WRPG),and with games like Kotor,Kotor 2,Jade Empire,ME,ME2,DA and others out there,JRPG´s lost a lot of it´s charm and are falling to a far second place between the genres.

SakusEnvoy

To be sure, there is Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls 4, The Witcher and Fable. But generally speaking, in the west we don't have a lot of WRPG games or developers -- what we have, though, are a few really good ones.

It's a simple fact they've gone way down hill. They don't need evolving, they've simply just gone crap and they need to be made better again. Not through lack of towns, not through streamlined casualization and certainly not through perty HD graphics. Possibly get rid of all the sissy crap as well, like teenboy heros and generic save the world plots. More variety in storylines please, and better characters. Thats all I really need out of a JRPG.

There has been a noticeable lack of high quality titles this gen, but FF 13 may change that.

Wrpg's > Jrpg's and that's been the case for a long while but I did enjoy Lost Odyssey a bunch as a this gen Jrpg with the old school feel with a few neat little twists on the traditional Jrpg battle system -The game was good stuff. :)

its Human Perspective its a case on here....its just selection of human nature.....or thinking they are old enough to play 14years old game to not play it

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

Animal-Mother

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

P3, P4, ToV, LO, and VC are all exceptionally good JRPGs that were released this gen. :|

FFXIII looks like solid AAA quality. Not a traditional JRPG but great nonetheless.

I personally think Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia & Graces, Eternal Sonata and Valkyria Chronicles are the only flat out great console JRPGs this gen.

Pretty sad really, this gen is on its 5th year.

Shirokishi_

It's a simple fact they've gone way down hill. They don't need evolving, they've simply just gone crap and they need to be made better again. Not through lack of towns, not through streamlined casualization and certainly not through perty HD graphics. Possibly get rid of all the sissy crap as well, like teenboy heros and generic save the world plots. More variety in storylines please, and better characters. Thats all I really need out of a JRPG.

Crossel777

Lol FFXIII is one of the least casual FF games.

Ya man but thats just a handful. Last gen there were 10 fold of what you just posted. I mean grandia, Star ocean, Shin Megami games. Hack games. I mean the list goes on and on and onAnimal-Mother

They are done "right." It's just the western media likes to crap on them for what they claim is "stagnation." Okay, so by their definition of stagnation, aren't FPS stagnant? Surely most of 'em have not changed since the Halo days, and many of 'em are still corridor shooters from the Doom days. Are Racers stagnant? All you do is customize your car and race. 2D Super Mario games still get high scores, and they play just like they did decades ago. As for the whole WRPG vs. JRPG argument, I'm beginning to no longer care because it's such an exhausted argument. They both cater to different players. What is wrong with variety? Does everyone want 'em to play the same? I sure as hell do not. As for games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect fully exposing the weakness of the JRPG, that's wrong as well. A JRPG can have just as much strong characters as a WRPG. Dragon Age's characters are strong, but the story is incredibly cliche. As for games like Oblivion and Fallout 3, the sacrifice of great characters and a great story (both had neither, IMO) for greater freedom is what seperated them from the pack.

Well in my opinion JRPGs, have a restriction, limit because it of the simplicity in gaming.. The base formula run around, cut scene, fight, boss fight, repeat add in some cuteness and cheesyness and you got a JRPG. JRPGs have finally been maxed out because when compared to other games they seem bland and boring because other games have evolved and are better. The only thing that has evolved is the graphics.

There have been ones that stick out though and stray away from that formula, like Demons souls and VC

[QUOTE="leadernator"]

WHEN ARE WE GETTING AN AWESOME JRPG?

Burning-Sludge

Points to Nintendo DS's library.

C'mon guys, there are no loop holes around this. DS is a current gen 'handheld.' I thought that was pretty clear...

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] KOTOR was a landmark game that allowed WRPGs to breakthrough in the console market. Yes its better than FFX and DQVIIIBigboi500

I enjoyed KOTOR as well, but the characters were not as interesting as they were in the games I mentioned.