Why is Sony the only one improving gameplay that is taxing on the console

[QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]Anyways, to put it into perspective, each of the possible 56k units on a battlefield is it's own entity, complete with AI, physics, etc. Let's see your beloved Infamous 2 and its what, 10 active enemies be able to match that.momentum_god

56000 vs 10... thousands of collision detections, hit detections, pathing, etc versus 10 pathing and targeting scripts... Obviously the 10 pathing scripts require are clearly more intensive right?

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]

I know 90% of you won't read past the title but I'll try to explain for the 10% that will, better hardware means more potential in gameplay and in graphics, now the wii is tapped out, 360 is debaitable and pc isn't even close, yet Sony on the ps3 are the only ones pushing the hardware advantages in gameplay, every round of exclusives is better gameplay wise then the last adding more and more elements, multiplat devs do improve the gameplay but not through means of pushing the hardware not lately just creative deceisions (for lack of a better term) and pc devs don't even make an effort, as for MS I doubt their devs would be capable regardless of their system was maxed out or not, I know people are shiny graphics focused but still it really sucks when people say that crysis is the most advanced game when it has such dated gameplay machinics technically speaking no matter how shiny it is I want better gameplay not shinier dirt

RecklessTortuga

[QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]Anyways, to put it into perspective, each of the possible 56k units on a battlefield is it's own entity, complete with AI, physics, etc. Let's see your beloved Infamous 2 and its what, 10 active enemies be able to match that.momentum_god

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]Anyways, to put it into perspective, each of the possible 56k units on a battlefield is it's own entity, complete with AI, physics, etc. Let's see your beloved Infamous 2 and its what, 10 active enemies be able to match that.rpgs_shall_rule

56000 vs 10... thousands of collision detections, hit detections, pathing, etc versus 10 pathing and targeting scripts... Obviously the 10 pathing scripts require are clearly more intensive right?

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]Not really I don't know maybe, either way it's not as taxing as an action game, the gameplay is too slow in rts, yeah I'm wrong it's real time but it's incredibly slow paced and the troops just do one or two things theres only one AImomentum_god

As for the AI part, they can do more than just fight on many games.

the gameplay is "slow" because it's very taxing on the hardware to process all of the individual animations of the thousands of models onscreen at one time.

i guess you call a console that is 1 yr away from being replaced tapped out well i got news for ya nintendo won this gen if that happens ,

they clearly won the handheld wars already , and are gonna win the 8th gen one as well , w 4 million -5 million 3dses sold ,

world wide

once the big hitters for 3ds come there will be no stopping for that train

just like they didnt stop the wii train until its time was up lol

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]Anyways, to put it into perspective, each of the possible 56k units on a battlefield is it's own entity, complete with AI, physics, etc. Let's see your beloved Infamous 2 and its what, 10 active enemies be able to match that.mitu123

[QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] they don't have to all navigate a cluttered environment in seconds which staying out of each others way and attacking the target I just don't see anything rts pushing hardware except maybe the core AI (like those chess playing computers)momentum_god

56000 vs 10... thousands of collision detections, hit detections, pathing, etc versus 10 pathing and targeting scripts... Obviously the 10 pathing scripts require are clearly more intensive right?

There is collision detection in pong. Do you even know what collision detection is?

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]Not really I don't know maybe, either way it's not as taxing as an action game, the gameplay is too slow in rts, yeah I'm wrong it's real time but it's incredibly slow paced and the troops just do one or two things theres only one AImomentum_god

As for the AI part, they can do more than just fight on many games.

Yeah, because A.I. in action games aren't preprogrammed to go here, attack you on sight right? At least units can do more than attack.

lol @ wii being tapped out your joking right, LAST I SEE it had the best year for 4 of the 5 years its been out 08 being its worst , ,

i guess you call a console that is 1 yr away from being replaced tapped out well i got news for ya nintendo won this gen if that happens ,

they clearly won the handheld wars already , and are gonna win the 8th gen one as well , w 4 million -5 million 3dses sold ,

world wide

once the big hitters for 3ds come there will be no stopping for that train

just like they didnt stop the wii train until its time was up lol

mariokart64fan

[QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] they don't have to all navigate a cluttered environment in seconds which staying out of each others way and attacking the target I just don't see anything rts pushing hardware except maybe the core AI (like those chess playing computers)momentum_god

56000 vs 10... thousands of collision detections, hit detections, pathing, etc versus 10 pathing and targeting scripts... Obviously the 10 pathing scripts require are clearly more intensive right?

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="mitu123"] That's funny seeing how you can normally have more units on screen in an RTS than an action game along with bigger environments.

As for the AI part, they can do more than just fight on many games.

mitu123

Yeah, because A.I. in action games aren't preprogrammed to go here, attack you on sight right? At least units can do more than attack.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] they don't have to all navigate a cluttered environment in seconds which staying out of each others way and attacking the target I just don't see anythingrts pushing hardware except maybe the core AI (like those chess playing computers)momentum_god

Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.mitu123

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="rpgs_shall_rule"]

56000 vs 10... thousands of collision detections, hit detections, pathing, etc versus 10 pathing and targeting scripts... Obviously the 10 pathing scripts require are clearly more intensive right?

mitu123

Better yet, have him explain why gameplay that is taxing on the hardware is necessarily a good thing or even necessary in the first place. Some of the best gameplay this gen has been simplistic and a return to mechanics used in previous gens but merely tweaked or improved.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] not really, like I said the gameplay is slow, and all the units and commands are preprogrammed very static design momentum_god

Yeah, because A.I. in action games aren't preprogrammed to go here, attack you on sight right? At least units can do more than attack.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.momentum_god

Thats exactly what collision detection is, they hit the wall, the wall stops them. If there was no collision detection they'd go right through the wall.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.momentum_god

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]

[QUOTE="mitu123"]Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.Snugenz

Thats exactly what collision detection is, they hit the wall, the wall stops them. If there was no collision detection they'd go right through the wall.

I program my games to prevent that though.:P

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="mitu123"] Yeah because advanced graphics and physics are what RTSs don't have right?

mitu123

[QUOTE="mitu123"]Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.momentum_god

Collision detectiontypically refers to the computational problem of detecting the intersection of two or more objects

The reason you can't go through the wall is because the game detects the intersection of 2 points and avoids letting you pass through. Collision response is what happens when you come in contact with an object.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] no because of the static design units do one or two types of attack, damaging taking is the same you get a dozen or so commands which have a very specific effect, dynasty warror games have thousands of enemies running at you and attacking, I'm not impressed with that eithermomentum_god

have you ever ran a total war game maxed out on a PC with a weak or even average processor? It's quite clear that you haven't or that you're just purely here for the trolling.

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]

[QUOTE="mitu123"]Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.Snugenz

Thats exactly what collision detection is, they hit the wall, the wall stops them. If there was no collision detection they'd go right through the wall.

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]

[QUOTE="mitu123"]Explain how I can't get my units in StarCraft 2 past a wall.ActicEdge

Collision detectiontypically refers to the computational problem of detecting the intersection of two or more objects

The reason you can't go through the wall is because the game detects the intersection of 2 points and avoids letting you pass through. Collision response is what happens when you come in contact with an object.

I have to agree with the TC to an extent. There have been many unique games that do depend on hardware efficiency for certain gameplay elements. IMO in the last 1.5 years, the PS3 is the only console that is really being taken advantage of in this regard with certain games. If you watch some of the developer commentary clips in Uncharted 2, they explain how they utilitze the different cores of the CELL processor for physics, enemy AI, and the sheer number of detailed objects on screen at once. God of War is another great example. The only game that has really tried to do the same on the Xbox 360 was Halo Reach and I think Bungie actually pushed that engine a little beyond the Xbox 360's hardware because it has massive frame rate drops during heavy firefights. Overall I would say most developers have become complacent and choose not to fully take advantage fo a given platform's hardware. A lot of games for PC dont because they dont have the budget or their crappy console ports.

A lot of recent RTS games like Starcraft 2 and Shogun 2 are great examples of what can be done when developers put the effort into it. Regarding the original Crysis, yes it pushed boundaries and was amazing for its time. Sadly, I wish the same were true for its sequel. It's not just the graphics but everything seems to be taken down a notch or two. Enemies dont seem to be as intelligent and form counter attacks, the level designs seem more cramped with less freedom (and destruction).

This is yet another reason why new consoles are needed. Perhaps developers have ideas but current tech isnt powerful enough to turn their ideas into reality... or perhaps it would just be enough to enhance current ones.

[QUOTE="Snugenz"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] Because it's a wall, do your units crash into the wall or touch it? no, they are programed to be unable to move there, it's not collision detection

momentum_god

Thats exactly what collision detection is, they hit the wall, the wall stops them. If there was no collision detection they'd go right through the wall.

No you are wrong. Collision Detection is detecting the intersection of 2 objects or lines. Essentially where 2 lines meet. Collision response is what is done after the detection is found and that could very well just be an invisible wall that prevents further movement.

[QUOTE="Snugenz"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] Because it's a wall, do your units crash into the wall or touch it? no, they are programed to be unable to move there, it's not collision detection

momentum_god

Thats exactly what collision detection is, they hit the wall, the wall stops them. If there was no collision detection they'd go right through the wall.

You played Demon's souls right, well you know the gates in Boletaria (1-1), that you need to open before you can advance?. Yeah well you know they're not really solid right?. When you try and walk through them its collision detection stopping you from passing through.

Polygons arent actually solid, its a characteristic given to objects that make them solid, that characteristic is whether the PC will collide with the object and what happens when they do (collision detection and response as artic posted).

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] no because of the static design units do one or two types of attack, damaging taking is the same you get a dozen or so commands which have a very specific effect, dynasty warror games have thousands of enemies running at you and attacking, I'm not impressed with that eithermomentum_god

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] Because it's a wall, do your units crash into the wall or touch it? no, they are programed to be unable to move there, it's not collision detection

momentum_god

Collision detectiontypically refers to the computational problem of detecting the intersection of two or more objects

The reason you can't go through the wall is because the game detects the intersection of 2 points and avoids letting you pass through. Collision response is what happens when you come in contact with an object.

You intersect a point before the wall and the wall is a response to the collision detection specifically programmed to impede movement past the collision. How do you think the game knows that you aren't suspose to be able to go through the wall? It senses the avatar passing through the programmed line/object/barrier and a wall that impede progress is set up from there. that is collision detection and response. Every game has collision detection if it involves moving points.

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

Collision detectiontypically refers to the computational problem of detecting the intersection of two or more objects

The reason you can't go through the wall is because the game detects the intersection of 2 points and avoids letting you pass through. Collision response is what happens when you come in contact with an object.

ActicEdge

You intersect a point before the wall and the wall is a response to the collision detection specifically programmed to impede movement past the collision. How do you think the game knows that you aren't suspose to be able to go through the wall? It senses the avatar passing through the programmed line/object/barrier and a wall that impede progress is set up from there. that is collision detection and response. Every game has collision detection if it involves moving points.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] and with the wall in rtses you don't intersect you stop just before it, it's just terrain which is programed for you unable to pass

momentum_god

You intersect a point before the wall and the wall is a response to the collision detection specifically programmed to impede movement past the collision. How do you think the game knows that you aren't suspose to be able to go through the wall? It senses the avatar passing through the programmed line/object/barrier and a wall that impede progress is set up from there. that is collision detection and response. Every game has collision detection if it involves moving points.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] and with the wall in rtses you don't intersect you stop just before it, it's just terrain which is programed for you unable to pass

momentum_god

You intersect a point before the wall and the wall is a response to the collision detection specifically programmed to impede movement past the collision. How do you think the game knows that you aren't suspose to be able to go through the wall? It senses the avatar passing through the programmed line/object/barrier and a wall that impede progress is set up from there. that is collision detection and response. Every game has collision detection if it involves moving points.

Okay, deny the actual definition but you will be arguing for nothing since everything you saw will be incorrect. Bettr AI, better animation, better collision response, more units, etc. Also, have you like ever walked into a wall? You kinda just stop, you don't like fly off or something. Collsion detection is just sensing a collision. The response is something entirely different and that is going to be appropriate to each game because there is no point to proggram bouncing off a wall in an RTS. Heck, enemies don't even bounce off walls on their own in FPS or TPS games.

TC you need to realize that all games(include RTSs) have collision detection, or else you'll explore any section of an environment forever.

[QUOTE="momentum_god"]

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

You intersect a point before the wall and the wall is a response to the collision detection specifically programmed to impede movement past the collision. How do you think the game knows that you aren't suspose to be able to go through the wall? It senses the avatar passing through the programmed line/object/barrier and a wall that impede progress is set up from there. that is collision detection and response. Every game has collision detection if it involves moving points.

ActicEdge

Okay, deny the actual definition but you will be arguing for nothing since everything you saw will be incorrect. Bettr AI, better animation, better collision response, more units, etc. Also, have you like ever walked into a wall? You kinda just stop, you don't like fly off or something. Collsion detection is just sensing a collision. The response is something entirely different and that is going to be appropriate to each game because there is no point to proggram bouncing off a wall in an RTS. Heck, enemies don't even bounce off walls on their own in FPS or TPS games.

TC you need to realize that all games(include RTSs) have collision detection, or else you'll explore any section of an environment forever.

mitu123

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

TC you need to realize that all games(include RTSs) have collision detection, or else you'll explore any section of an environment forever.

momentum_god

NES collision detection - Have i hit a wall? - Yes, Can i pass through it - No.

Modern collision detection - Have i hit a very shiny wall? - Yes, Can i pass through it - No.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

TC you need to realize that all games(include RTSs) have collision detection, or else you'll explore any section of an environment forever.

momentum_god

Yeah, because PS3 games are so special?:roll:

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="mitu123"]

TC you need to realize that all games(include RTSs) have collision detection, or else you'll explore any section of an environment forever.

mitu123

Yeah, because PS3 games are so special?:roll:

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] I tend to ignore stuff thats the standard for decades especially when there are tons of improvements on it which the game doesn't utilize in the least, so yes it's nes level collision detection, not this gen collision detection momentum_god

Yeah, because PS3 games are so special?:roll:

EDIT: What you said in your edit is all a programming issue that can be fixed.

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="mitu123"] What's the difference? You collide with a wall and you stop from both gens, end of story. I'm starting to wonder how many RTSs you even played. Or games for that matter.

Yeah, because PS3 games are so special?:roll:

mitu123

BY FAR THE MOST LOL WORTHY THREADS ever!!

Tc you are..................I don't know what to say.

fanboy much?

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] the difference is reactions and actual bumping instead of just stopping prior, am I the only one that notices these thingsmomentum_god

[QUOTE="momentum_god"][QUOTE="mitu123"] Why would you bounce off an invisible wall? Is that even possible? You do know RTSs are capable of what I highlighted right?

mitu123

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

[QUOTE="momentum_god"] of course their capable and it doesn't even take much so brings me back to my point why aren't they and not off invisible walls just off regular walls and units, it's part of physics factor in the speed of the object and make that have an effect, add in damage from high speed impacts and you have a new gameplay element momentum_god