Why is there so much QQ about World of Warcraft?

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]I agree with you the fights are more complex now then they were in Vanilla, but at the time they were harder because no one had a handy dandy 5 man/10man raid to pretty much learn the encounter in a much simpler form. I am just saying that to compare the two at face value isnt fair.Vandalvideo

Your arguement is that people are more competent now at boss fights, but im saying that people arent any more competent then before because these people are being subjected to the content at a much easier level. If people had been given a ten man ragnaros or ten man BWL the fight would have been much easier, and allowed alot more then the 4-5% of the player base to complete the instance originally. Im saying that the game requires less competence because they arent seeing the fight for the 1st time in a 25/40man enviornment, but are just seeing the fight again with 15 more people. Its alot less scary/intimidating when you have already seen the fight, and are just doing it with more people. It definitely takes alot more "skill" thats a poor word choice, but i couldnt think of a better word" to complete an instance for the 1st time in a 25man enviornment as opposed to experiencing it in a less frantic and easier ten man mode, and then readoing it on 25.

Basically my orignal two steps back one step forward philosophy.

Vandal while the fights are more complex its nowhere near a large margin like you are making out... 1-2 more abilities, more enphasis on movement ect ect. The only really "complex" unforgiving fights in WOTLK so far have been the 4 wardens.... everything else is pretty much typical. even then its down to heavy stat requirements. and luck, dont forget the magical aspect of luck.Birdy09

ahh RNG my favorite mechanic of an encounter.

Your arguement is that people are more competent now at boss fights, but im saying that people arent any more competent then before because these people are being subjected to the content at a much easier level. If people had been given a ten man ragnaros or ten man BWL the fight would have been much easier, and allowed alot more then the 4-5% of the player base to complete the instance originally. Im saying that the game requires less competence because they arent seeing the fight for the 1st time in a 25/40man enviornment, but are just seeing the fight again with 15 more people. Its alot less scary/intimidating when you have already seen the fight, and are just doing it with more people. It definitely takes alot more "skill" thats a poor word choice, but i couldnt think of a better word" to complete an instance for the 1st time in a 25man enviornment as opposed to experiencing it in a less frantic and easier ten man mode, and then readoing it on 25.Basically my orignal two steps back one step forward philosophy.Fizzman

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]Your arguement is that people are more competent now at boss fights, but im saying that people arent any more competent then before because these people are being subjected to the content at a much easier level. If people had been given a ten man ragnaros or ten man BWL the fight would have been much easier, and allowed alot more then the 4-5% of the player base to complete the instance originally. Im saying that the game requires less competence because they arent seeing the fight for the 1st time in a 25/40man enviornment, but are just seeing the fight again with 15 more people. Its alot less scary/intimidating when you have already seen the fight, and are just doing it with more people. It definitely takes alot more "skill" thats a poor word choice, but i couldnt think of a better word" to complete an instance for the 1st time in a 25man enviornment as opposed to experiencing it in a less frantic and easier ten man mode, and then readoing it on 25.Basically my orignal two steps back one step forward philosophy.Vandalvideo

Ummm going from 40>25>10 is proving exactly that the game requires less competence now. Less people = more communication and more raid awareness. Thatsa fact and is indisputable. Also i stated earlier the massive nerfs content recieves after less then a month of its release, how can you argue that people have become more competent yet Blizzard nerfs the content so quickly. Its fairly obvious that people are unable to complete the instance because they arent good enough to do it. How is a 25 man Magtheridon with 1 cube clicking roation harder then 2 rotations of cube clickers. Thats the definition of an idiot check ,and people failed at it. Blizzard nerfed it so people who were incompetent at the rotation became competent.

WHICH FINALLY COMES BACK TO MY THEORY

Blizzard is lowering the bar so that its players can reach it as opposed to players elevating their game so they can achieve their goals.

Also an indirect cause of Blizzard giving out more epics means better geared raids. If you look at people who completed ragnaros for the 1st time they still had blues, and greens in some slots, but because Blizzard made epics more attainable it raised the entire HP/Mana pool of players so it made raid healing and dps alot better.

Ummm going from 40>25>10 is proving exactly that the game requires less competence now. Less people = more communication and more raid awareness. Thatsa fact and is indisputableFizzman

Also i stated earlier the massive nerfs content recieves after less then a month of its release, how can you argue that people have become more competent yet Blizzard nerfs the content so quickly. Its fairly obvious that people are unable to complete the instance because they arent good enough to do it.

How is a 25 man Magtheridon with 1 cube clicking roation harder then 2 rotations of cube clickers. Thats the definition of an idiot check ,and people failed at it. Blizzard nerfed it so people who were incompetent at the rotation became competent.

WHICH FINALLY COMES BACK TO MY THEORYBlizzard is lowering the bar so that its players can reach it as opposed to players elevating their game so they can achieve their goals.

How can you seriously sit there with a straight face, and tell me that a 5 man instance is just a complicated as a 40 man raid? Your theory is that people have become more competent yet Blizzard continues to nerf the game even after the content has been completed. TK and Vashj and Magtheridon HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED when they were nerfed by several thousand players. They were only nerfed after the majoriry of players were unable to do the same. If Matheridon had been nerfed because the fight was truly imbalanced then alot less people would have completed the instance. Its purely on the fact that the majority of players are too incompetent to complete the encounter in its original incarnation which was balanced, but too hard for the casuals.

How can you seriously sit there with a straight face, and tell me that a 5 man instance is just a complicated as a 40 man raid? Fizzman

Your theory is that people have become more competent yet Blizzard continues to nerf the game even after the content has been completed. TK and Vashj and Magtheridon HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED when they were nerfed by several thousand players. They were only nerfed after the majoriry of players were unable to do the same. If Matheridon had been nerfed because the fight was truly imbalanced then alot less people would have completed the instance. Its purely on the fact that the majority of players are too incompetent to complete the encounter in its original incarnation which was balanced, but too hard for the casuals.

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]How can you seriously sit there with a straight face, and tell me that a 5 man instance is just a complicated as a 40 man raid? Vandalvideo

Your theory is that people have become more competent yet Blizzard continues to nerf the game even after the content has been completed. TK and Vashj and Magtheridon HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED when they were nerfed by several thousand players. They were only nerfed after the majoriry of players were unable to do the same. If Matheridon had been nerfed because the fight was truly imbalanced then alot less people would have completed the instance. Its purely on the fact that the majority of players are too incompetent to complete the encounter in its original incarnation which was balanced, but too hard for the casuals.

the timeliness of a nerf does help to address what a nerf was for. If the nerf came out 24hours after launching then its a pretty good indictaion that the developers did not feel the encounter was correct. If the nerf comes 1-2 months after the content has already been cleared by multiple guilds on several servers then obviously there is nothing inherently wrong with the content, but blizzard wanted to make it easier so the rest of the community can complete it. That is once again blizzard lowering the bar for its casual fanbase. I have given you actual proof not my own personal experience what actual proof have you given me other then your opinion aswell? You havent shown anything either thats been backed up. I will agree that we are both expressing our opinions, but to say my opinion is wrong and yours isnt makes zero sense. A ten man version of Naxxarams is easier then a twenty five man version of Naxxaramas. Ten man three drakes can be zerged down where the same cannot be done on a twenty five man version. Go to world of raids, and look it up.

the timeliness of a nerf does help to address what a nerf was for. If the nerf came out 24hours after launching then its a pretty good indictaion that the developers did not feel the encounter was correct. If the nerf comes 1-2 months after the content has already been cleared by multiple guilds on several servers then obviously there is nothing inherently wrong with the content, but blizzard wanted to make it easier so the rest of the community can complete it. That is once again blizzard lowering the bar for its casual fanbase. I have given you actual proof not my own personal experience what actual proof have you given me other then your opinion aswell? You havent shown anything either thats been backed up. I will agree that we are both expressing our opinions, but to say my opinion is wrong and yours isnt makes zero sense. A ten man version of Naxxarams is easier then a twenty five man version of Naxxaramas. Ten man three drakes can be zerged down where the same cannot be done on a twenty five man version. Go to world of raids, and look it up.Fizzman

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]the timeliness of a nerf does help to address what a nerf was for. If the nerf came out 24hours after launching then its a pretty good indictaion that the developers did not feel the encounter was correct. If the nerf comes 1-2 months after the content has already been cleared by multiple guilds on several servers then obviously there is nothing inherently wrong with the content, but blizzard wanted to make it easier so the rest of the community can complete it. That is once again blizzard lowering the bar for its casual fanbase. I have given you actual proof not my own personal experience what actual proof have you given me other then your opinion aswell? You havent shown anything either thats been backed up. I will agree that we are both expressing our opinions, but to say my opinion is wrong and yours isnt makes zero sense. A ten man version of Naxxarams is easier then a twenty five man version of Naxxaramas. Ten man three drakes can be zerged down where the same cannot be done on a twenty five man version. Go to world of raids, and look it up.Vandalvideo

Seriously? Your arguement is the player base has gotten more competent, and you are telling me my arguements work for you. How is a nerf 1-2 months after people have already beaten the content on several different servers by people all of the world not catering to its casual fanbase which was unable to defeat the content before the nerf? Clearly the content was doable by everyone, and its not limited to it being simply an anomoly. If your argument was actually correct then the majority of players would clear the content, and the nerf wouldnt have occured in the 1st place. If you look at almost every wow patch the bosses HP is reduced or its damage is reduced. Blizzard reduces the bosses difficulty so that the majority of players can defeat the encounter because they werent good enough to do it before. Which plays directly into my notion that players havent become any more competent, but blizzard just continuously lowers the bar.

You are also making an assumption, but mine is wrong? You have no factual data to back up your comments aswell. Its all based on assumption. I have enjoyed this conversation, but its beginning to get annoying now because you are saying you are right because "just because".

Seriously? Your arguement is the player base has gotten more competent, and you are telling me my arguements work for you. How is a nerf 1-2 months after people have already beaten the content on several different servers by people all of the world not catering to its casual fanbase which was unable to defeat the content before the nerf? Clearly the content was doable by everyone, and its not limited to it being simply an anomoly. If your argument was actually correct then the majority of players would clear the content, and the nerf wouldnt have occured in the 1st place. If you look at almost every wow patch the bosses HP is reduced or its damage is reduced. Blizzard reduces the bosses difficulty so that the majority of players can defeat the encounter because they werent good enough to do it before. Which plays directly into my notion that players havent become any more competent, but blizzard just continuously lowers the bar.Fizzman

[QUOTE="rybe1025"][QUOTE="aero250"] I want to try it but don't have a gaming PC.LordDhampire

except they make good games

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]Seriously? Your arguement is the player base has gotten more competent, and you are telling me my arguements work for you. How is a nerf 1-2 months after people have already beaten the content on several different servers by people all of the world not catering to its casual fanbase which was unable to defeat the content before the nerf? Clearly the content was doable by everyone, and its not limited to it being simply an anomoly. If your argument was actually correct then the majority of players would clear the content, and the nerf wouldnt have occured in the 1st place. If you look at almost every wow patch the bosses HP is reduced or its damage is reduced. Blizzard reduces the bosses difficulty so that the majority of players can defeat the encounter because they werent good enough to do it before. Which plays directly into my notion that players havent become any more competent, but blizzard just continuously lowers the bar.Vandalvideo

You are saying that that can be completed by thousands of people across the world could still mean that the fight is imbalanced. Look at Lady Vashj for example that fight was truly imbalanced, and was only cleared by 1-2 guilds for a while DNT and Nihiulm. That is truly an imbalanced fight if only 1-2 guilds were able to clear the fight and it was luck too, so those nerfs arent nerfing the fight soeveryone can experience it but are nerfing it becausethe fight itself isnt designed correctly, but if guilds all over the world are able to clear the content, and reproduce the kill every week then that means the fight is balanced, and repeatble which is the whole philosophy behind a boss strategy. Learn, Execute, and Repeat. Clearly the intentions of Blizzard were to weaken the content so that the rest of the player base could also clear the content, because prior to that point they could not clear the content because they were too incompetent to do so.

Which leads back to my assumption that Blizzard is lowering the bar so that they can succeed.

Because people dont want to pay $15 a month for a game that should and can be free.

You are saying that that can be completed by thousands of people across the world could still mean that the fight is imbalanced. Look at Lady Vashj for example that fight was truly imbalanced, and was only cleared by 1-2 guilds for a while DNT and Nihiulm. That is truly an imbalanced fight if only 1-2 guilds were able to clear the fight and it was luck too, but if guilds all over the world are able to clear the content, and reproduce the kill every week then that means the fight is balanced, and repeatble which is the whole philosophy behind a boss strategy. Learn, Execute, and Repeat. Clearly the intentions of Blizzard were to weaken the content so that the rest of the player base could also clear the content, because prior to that point they could not clear the content because they were too incompetent to do so.Fizzman

Because people dont want to pay $15 a month for a game that should and can be free.

Hungry_Jello

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]You are saying that that can be completed by thousands of people across the world could still mean that the fight is imbalanced. Look at Lady Vashj for example that fight was truly imbalanced, and was only cleared by 1-2 guilds for a while DNT and Nihiulm. That is truly an imbalanced fight if only 1-2 guilds were able to clear the fight and it was luck too, but if guilds all over the world are able to clear the content, and reproduce the kill every week then that means the fight is balanced, and repeatble which is the whole philosophy behind a boss strategy. Learn, Execute, and Repeat. Clearly the intentions of Blizzard were to weaken the content so that the rest of the player base could also clear the content, because prior to that point they could not clear the content because they were too incompetent to do so.Vandalvideo

15 million people raid i dont think so, and those numbers Blizzard throws out are probably grossely maniuplated. Id venture to say taht 5million people are actually playing at any given time, and i still think thats too high. If a fight is mildly imbalanced, but can be cleared on a weekly basis by people all over the world then clearly the imbalance does not hinder progression, whereas the Vashj example hindered progression to such an extreme that it could only be completed with very lucky RNG. Also you assume that everyone in wow raids, since wow is such a diverse game with some people who probably just log on once a week, and kill a few mobs and do a couple quests.

Yes the fights maybe more complex, but only if the person who is experiencing the fight has never done a 5 man or ten man instance before. I agree if when i was learning to ride a bike id want training wheels to give me a more safer and controlled enviornment. Which is what vanilla wow did not have, and it is something today wow does have.

15 million people raid i dont think so, and those numbers Blizzard throws out are probably grossely maniuplated. Id venture to say taht 5million people are actually playing at any given time, and i still think thats too high. If a fight is mildly imbalanced, but can be cleared on a weekly basis by people all over the world then clearly the imbalance does not hinder progression, whereas the Vashj example hindered progression to such an extreme that it could only be completed with very lucky RNG. Also you assume that everyone in wow raids, since wow is such a diverse game with some people who probably just log on once a week, and kill a few mobs and do a couple quests.Fizzman

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]15 million people raid i dont think so, and those numbers Blizzard throws out are probably grossely maniuplated. Id venture to say taht 5million people are actually playing at any given time, and i still think thats too high. If a fight is mildly imbalanced, but can be cleared on a weekly basis by people all over the world then clearly the imbalance does not hinder progression, whereas the Vashj example hindered progression to such an extreme that it could only be completed with very lucky RNG. Also you assume that everyone in wow raids, since wow is such a diverse game with some people who probably just log on once a week, and kill a few mobs and do a couple quests.Vandalvideo

Well im looking at particular nerfs in wow that were clearly designed for one thing only, and that was to allow the majority of players to beat that encounter. Kael'Thas, Muru, SSC, and attunement removements. It clearly looks from my point of view that Blizzard nerfed/removed these parts of the game because the majority of players were unable to play at that level, so Blizzard saw this and lowered the game to their level of play. Im a cynic so its just natural for me to think the worst out of someones intentions. It would be fantastic if you were right and players were getting better, but i personally think they arent based on what i percieve why the nerfs/changes are taking place.

In the sense that the bosses are harder i agree, but if you factor in just many more opportunities blizzard gives the player to learn a mechanic at a much simpler level which were not around during vanilla wow, but just after sooo many times you see something you can mimic it. As opposed to just throwing them into a 25man zone that they have never seen or heard of before, and say "ok clear this".

It may seem archaic, but i enjoy learning something that is completely new, as opposed to being spoon fed one new boss ability in every five man instance, and then bundle em up into a "new' boss. Its not being creative its being lazy on blizzards behalf, but only disguising it as being creative.

Well im looking at particular nerfs in wow that were clearly designed for one thing only, and that was to allow the majority of players to beat that encounter. Kael'Thas, Muru, SSC, and attunement removements. It clearly looks from my point of view that Blizzard nerfed/removed these parts of the game because the majority of players were unable to play at that level, so Blizzard saw this and lowered the game to their level of play. Im a cynic so its just natural for me to think the worst out of someones intentions. It would be fantastic if you were right and players were getting better, but i personally think they arent based on what i percieve why the nerfs/changes are taking place.Fizzman

In the sense that the bosses are harder i agree, but if you factor in just many more opportunities blizzard gives the player to learn a mechanic at a much simpler level which were not around during vanilla wow, but just after sooo many times you see something you can mimic it. As opposed to just throwing them into a 25man zone that they have never seen or heard of before, and say "ok clear this".

It may seem archaic, but i enjoy learning something that is completely new, as opposed to being spoon fed one new boss ability in every five man instance, and then bundle em up into a "new' boss. Its not being creative its being lazy on blizzards behalf, but only disguising it as being creative.

Everyone who raided hardcore understood what the purpose of the patches were. What was the purpose of removing the attunements? because the casual fanbase was unable to kill the two bosses required to set foot into BT/Hyjal. What other purpose could you think of?

. What other purpose could you think of?Fizzman

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]. What other purpose could you think of?Vandalvideo

Well we are each entitled to our own reasoning behind the nerf/changes of the game, and i respect that. I will keep on believing that wow has been destroyed though casualization, and ez mode content. You are also more then allowed to believe that the game has evolved, and is even more challenging then it was two years ago. At this point i dont think either of us are going to change eachothers view on the game.

[QUOTE="rybe1025"]

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]I think people are just frustrated that WoW has been at the top of the MMO genre for so long, and every other MMO has been eclipsed by content patches/expansions from Blizzard. Even so, it's weak to hate on something that's so popular for all the good reasons.princeofshapeir

Also about WoW I love how much free content they offer. Most MMOs would just sell a expansion but not Blizzard. They are even about to do another that has a new instance, new battleground, and more.

I have to concur. WOW is "THE" game of our life time right now. So many people play it. The ones who dont, usually dislike it, and are only heard due to them being a minority. lol

Because people dont want to pay $15 a month for a game that should and can be free.

Hungry_Jello

I'd like to point out that this is a very ignorant comment. Please get a job. I'm surprized they handle a game of this magnitude at 15 a month from the QQer's.

Because people dont want to pay $15 a month for a game that should and can be free.

Hungry_Jello