Why New Vegas > Mass Effect 2 as an RPG

Better combat. I also thought researching to upgrade the ships defences/attacks and your own weapons/armour was better than just finding a new weapon.

SaltyMeatballs

^ ME2 leans more toward the shooter spectrum. 3/4 shooter, 1/4 RPG maybe.

Parasomniac

New Vegas to way too complex for the average gamer to try to get a hang of wheras Mass Effect 2 is way more approachable. Also, Mass Effect 2 isn't broken and buggy as hell.

New Vegas to way too complex for the average gamer to try to get a hang of wheras Mass Effect 2 is way more approachable. Also, Mass Effect 2 isn't broken and buggy as hell.

speedfreak48t5p

[QUOTE="speedfreak48t5p"]

New Vegas to way too complex for the average gamer to try to get a hang of wheras Mass Effect 2 is way more approachable. Also, Mass Effect 2 isn't broken and buggy as hell.

Brownesque

Your point? ME2 is a more polished and non-broken game than NV will ever be. Better RPG is meaningless when the game doesn't work.

that White Glove SOciety was a damn good quest; probably the best Casino family quest by far.

ME 2 is still far better in terms of consistencies

Just because you don't get as much character customization in ME 2 doesn't mean it isn't as much an rpg, because you can customize the story. Mind you, ME 2 is just a way to transition your choices from ME 1 to ME 3 while throwing in a few more choices along the way, and it's still a great game. Fallout gives you lots of freedom, sure, but your character only progresses through stats, etc. ME 2 allows you to shape a man (or woman) as well as the galaxy around him/her, which makes for a different type of RPG altogether.xMarex

[QUOTE="speedfreak48t5p"]

New Vegas to way too complex for the average gamer to try to get a hang of wheras Mass Effect 2 is way more approachable. Also, Mass Effect 2 isn't broken and buggy as hell.

Brownesque

It's more of an RPG certainly, but ME2 is by far the better game.chessmaster1989

this, and that's truly what matters most.

Mass Effect 2? RPG?

You're hilarious!

Your point? ME2 is a more polished and non-broken game than NV will ever be. Better RPG is meaningless when the game doesn't work.

Zune_HD

I wouldn't say that it's meaningless - I'd personally prefer to play a broken game that pushes the boundaries or tries something new than a highly polished game that does neither. And sadly most of the best RPGs of all time tend to launch as broken messes - their ambition overstepping their developer's budgets or launch dates.

Also games in which you upgrade your ship/weapons/armor isn't something that ME2 invented so saying that Mass Effect 2 pushed the genre forward using something that was done before would be contradictory.

smerlus

Yah, and I don't really think "playing a bland minigame repeatedly to get better items" counts as a great leap forward from "questing/exploring/solving puzzles to get better items"

dice rolling elitists imo ^Dead-Memories

...and, really? Surely anyone interested in the genre would like to see more options and depth than simply choosing between "space-cop Jesus" and "rogue space-cop Schwarzeneggar". I don't think you'd have to be an elitist to see that.

[QUOTE="xMarex"]Just because you don't get as much character customization in ME 2 doesn't mean it isn't as much an rpg, because you can customize the story. Mind you, ME 2 is just a way to transition your choices from ME 1 to ME 3 while throwing in a few more choices along the way, and it's still a great game. Fallout gives you lots of freedom, sure, but your character only progresses through stats, etc. ME 2 allows you to shape a man (or woman) as well as the galaxy around him/her, which makes for a different type of RPG altogether.Brownesque

[QUOTE="Brownesque"] Yeah, I prefer my RPGs to have the depth of a damp paper towel, with lots of action and explosions!!! And oh yeah, hot chicks. Alien hot chicks. It's roleplaying! You can be the bad dude, or the good dude, you get to choose, it's like a revolution in RPGs! And no RPG has ever been a third person shooter before, it's revolutionary!Dead-Memories

I never said I didn't like third person shooters. In fact, I really enjoyed the TPS mechanics in both ME1 and ME2, I just have the personal integrity to acknowledge that no matter how crafted the shooting mechanics are they don't offer a waiver for ME to also be the best in the RPG genre.

There's nothing about a TPS that makes it particularly like an RPG, the RPG elements must be strung overtop of it.

I don't mind shooters and I don't mind classic sidescroller dungeon games, I just happen to have a respect for the English language and I make an earnest attempt at consistency. I suppose I am elitist about that.

But anyway, in the era of shooters and me-too dudebros, when adventure games are about six feet under while old school RPGs are few are far between, you can't blame me for taking issue with the idea that I should discard dice rolls and stat charts like I'm some dinosaur too caught up on nostalgia to realize his time has past. No, damn it, RPGs used to be special. ME1 is different, and all it takes is a little honesty to admit it. Nobody said it's a bad game, in fact many of the same people saying NV was a better RPG than ME are also saying that ME was a better game than NV, something I don't necessarily disregard.

Civilization is a great game, but boy is it a terrible RTS. See what I mean?

Spoilers It's much more than that, and you know it. Half the time, the choices you make are too ambiguous for there to be a clear good/bad line (see Legion's loyalty quest). Then there's the choice of saving the Council or not from the first game (which tricks you into thinking that saving the Council would be at the expense of citizens), who's on the council, etc. Then the one at the end of the game with the reaper technology and other things thrown in, as well.xMarex

Actually, you're right there - those were interesting choices. It's a shame that they had no consequences in the games, however. Perhaps the third game will make up for that...or perhaps not.

Virtually nothing we did in ME1 had an impact on ME2's story, so perhaps we shouldn't get too hyped for any particularly mind-blowing consequences.

Virtually nothing we did in ME1 had an impact on ME2's story, so perhaps we shouldn't get too hyped for any particularly mind-blowing consequences.

Planeforger

Spoilers It's much more than that, and you know it. Half the time, the choices you make are too ambiguous for there to be a clear good/bad line (see Legion's loyalty quest). Then there's the choice of saving the Council or not from the first game (which tricks you into thinking that saving the Council would be at the expense of citizens), who's on the council, etc. Then the one at the end of the game with the reaper technology and other things thrown in, as well. Kelly is the sexiest :pxMarex

Oh, you mean good cop/bad cop (Spoilers):

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Legion:_A_House_Divided#Mission_Summary

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1010365

Legitimate choices....but obviously parsed and with only two branching paths designed to make it easiest to script both branches. You basically choose whether you want good cop or bad cop story, you pick the archetype, the ability to do it in bite sized chunks doesn't affect the universe in dramatic ways.

Obvioulsy, like I say, substantive choices, legitimate choices, and choices with consequences we don't entirely know about yet, but each of them fit snugly within either paragon or renegade path.

In case you haven't realized, the placement of dialogue options on the wheel is intentional. I think it was nonessential dialogue options on the left/inquiry, paragon on the top and renegade on the bottom. It is fully possible to play the game through entirely just by clicking the top dialogue options if you chose good cop (thereby maximizing paragon skill and increasing dialogue options down that path), or the bottom if you chose renegade. In fact, whenever I was in doubt about what option I should take with my blowhard goody two shoes Shepard, I simply clicked whatever was on the top left followed by whatever was on the top right, and bada-bing, easy paragon points and smiles all around the table. Everybody loves a paragon.

When I can ask myself "does that fit paragon better" and have it be just as substantive and meaningful a question to the dialogue and development of my character as the actual discussion topic, personally, I feel like the RPG elements are not exactly being stretched.

As a better game Mass Effect2 > NV

Pointless argument imo. Play games. Does it really matter what genre the people that make it, call it?cainetao11

Better combat. I also thought researching to upgrade the ships defences/attacks and your own weapons/armour was better than just finding a new weapon.

SaltyMeatballs

Because NV doesn't have crafting and weapon mods right?

Both games are great, but ME2 isn't much of an RPG.

Well sure it is, but it's too bad it launched as a bug bomb, has some bad combat, terribly frustrating loading times some god awful animations and more. It's one unpolished game and I enjoyed Mass Effect much more, shooter, RPG or massive multiplayer online.

Good thing that I don't sit there worrying about what genre a game is when playing it then.soulitane

I agree. ME2 is a RPG, it isn't a shooter like Dead Space; however, both had excellent storylines. It's rare for shooters to have decent storylines, the exceptions being Dead Space and Bioshock.

[QUOTE="Parasomniac"]

^ ME2 leans more toward the shooter spectrum. 3/4 shooter, 1/4 RPG maybe.

Avian005

How did you manage that, exactly?

The vast majority of the game content is combat, scene by scene, corridor by corridor; it doesn't matter how you play it.

[QUOTE="Brownesque"][QUOTE="xMarex"]Just because you don't get as much character customization in ME 2 doesn't mean it isn't as much an rpg, because you can customize the story. Mind you, ME 2 is just a way to transition your choices from ME 1 to ME 3 while throwing in a few more choices along the way, and it's still a great game. Fallout gives you lots of freedom, sure, but your character only progresses through stats, etc. ME 2 allows you to shape a man (or woman) as well as the galaxy around him/her, which makes for a different type of RPG altogether.xMarex

[QUOTE="xMarex"]Spoilers It's much more than that, and you know it. Half the time, the choices you make are too ambiguous for there to be a clear good/bad line (see Legion's loyalty quest). Then there's the choice of saving the Council or not from the first game (which tricks you into thinking that saving the Council would be at the expense of citizens), who's on the council, etc. Then the one at the end of the game with the reaper technology and other things thrown in, as well. Kelly is the sexiest :pBrownesque

Oh, you mean good cop/bad cop (Spoilers):

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Legion:_A_House_Divided#Mission_Summary

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1010365

Legitimate choices....but obviously parsed and with only two branching paths designed to make it easiest to script both branches. You basically choose whether you want good cop or bad cop story, you pick the archetype, the ability to do it in bite sized chunks doesn't affect the universe in dramatic ways.

Obvioulsy, like I say, substantive choices, legitimate choices, and choices with consequences we don't entirely know about yet, but each of them fit snugly within either paragon or renegade path.

In case you haven't realized, the placement of dialogue options on the wheel is intentional. I think it was nonessential dialogue options on the left/inquiry, paragon on the top and renegade on the bottom. It is fully possible to play the game through entirely just by clicking the top dialogue options if you chose good cop (thereby maximizing paragon skill and increasing dialogue options down that path), or the bottom if you chose renegade. In fact, whenever I was in doubt about what option I should take with my blowhard goody two shoes Shepard, I simply clicked whatever was on the top left followed by whatever was on the top right, and bada-bing, easy paragon points and smiles all around the table. Everybody loves a paragon.

When I can ask myself "does that fit paragon better" and have it be just as substantive and meaningful a question to the dialogue and development of my character as the actual discussion topic, personally, I feel like the RPG elements are not exactly being stretched.

[QUOTE="soulitane"]Good thing that I don't sit there worrying about what genre a game is when playing it then.topsemag55

I agree. ME2 is a RPG, is isn't a shooter like Dead Space; however, both had excellent storylines. It's rare for shooters to have decent storylines, the exceptions being Dead Space and Bioshock.

[QUOTE="Avian005"]

[QUOTE="Parasomniac"]

^ ME2 leans more toward the shooter spectrum. 3/4 shooter, 1/4 RPG maybe.

jethrovegas

How did you manage that, exactly?

The vast majority of the game content is combat, scene by scene, corridor by corridor; it doesn't matter how you play it.

So you entirely missed the parts where you conversed and interacted with your team, and the other NPCs of the varoious locations? I can see Avian didn't ;) Because that interaction element is just as essential as the combat,. It's an integral part of the overall gameplay experience since the story doesn't progress without your direct involvement. Hence an RPG.

That quest sucked, I was completely cut off from the path I planned on taking because the first time I tried the speech check my speech skill was slightly short, and I couldn't never try again. I thought the quest would be really fun, but it was actually pretty dull, like almost every other quest in New Vegas.

Who cares which is the better genre, ME2 is a way better game, just because it's not completely RPG, doesn't mean it should be criticized for that.

So you entirely missed the parts where you conversed and interacted with your team, and the other NPCs of the varoious locations? I can see Avian didn't ;) Because that interaction element is just as essential as the combat,. It's an integral part of the overall gameplay experience since the story doesn't progress without your direct involvement. Hence an RPG.

AdobeArtist

Not trying to get into a genre debate; if you say it's a role playing game, hey, that's fine by me.

I was just confused by Avian's statement that he spent most of the game playing it like an RPG, when in fact it isn't possible to do so, given that shooter-esque combat missions make up the vast majority of the game's content.

You spend most of the time shooting things; you have to shoot a whole bunch things in order to progress through game. There's even an epic final boss battle complete with special weak points and minion waves.

So sure, it's an RPG; it's an inflexible, tightly stuctured, action oriented RPG, where you spend most of your time killing things, an activity which the entire character system revolves around, to the degree that nearly all of your "skills" are, you guessed it, weapon related.

There are no skill checks; the only way to get special dialogue options is to slide far enough to one extreme or the other on the game's binary morality meter, thereby restricting the player's options and making an already tight-assed game even tighter.

That isn't good role playing. It's fun sure, and definitely pretty, but it's also shallow, and often quite stupid (once again, the final boss, or more to the point, the idiotic explanation for the final boss); it doesn't offer much besides good action and an over the top space opera plotline.

It certainly does nothing to progress the genre you're so convinced (and so bent on convincing others) it's a member of.

NV is the better rpg. It is subjective on which game is better overall.

They are both fantastic games, let em get that out of hte way right away.

New Vegas is the better RPG, ME2 is the better graphics and characters.

Personally love both games.

ME2 is more polished and New Vegas takes mroe chances.

Loved both games personally, New Vegas did attach to my inner rpg geek though, while ME2 was more a blockbuster experience, both wicked though.

In the genre, it is a step backward. Backward out of the genre and into other genres, where it excels to an extent far greater than its measure relative to the greatest RPGs of all time.

I challenge you to relate one single way in which ME2 advanced the ROLEPLAYING genre.

Brownesque

Sadly, ME's well adjusted playerbase neglected to mention an obvious way in which ME2 advanced the RP genre, which had slipped my mind, the saved game carry over feature and consequences that last into sequels.

Not trying to get into a genre debate; if you say it's a role playing game, hey, that's fine by me.

I was just confused by Avian's statement that he spent most of the game playing it like an RPG, when in fact it isn't possible to do so, given that shooter-esque combat missions make up the vast majority of the game's content.

You spend most of the time shooting things; you have to shoot a whole bunch things in order to progress through game. There's even an epic final boss battle complete with special weak points and minion waves.

So sure, it's an RPG; it's an inflexible, tightly stuctured, action oriented RPG, where you spend most of your time killing things, an activity which the entire character system revolves around, to the degree that nearly all of your "skills" are, you guessed it, weapon related.

There are no skill checks; the only way to get special dialogue options is to slide far enough to one extreme or the other on the game's binary morality meter, thereby restricting the player's options and making an already tight-assed game even tighter.

That isn't good role playing. It's fun sure, and definitely pretty, but it's also shallow, and often quite stupid (once again, the final boss, or more to the point, the idiotic explanation for the final boss); it doesn't offer much besides good action and an over the top space opera plotline.

It certainly does nothing to progress the genre you're so convinced (and so bent on convincing others) it's a member of.

jethrovegas

My underoos are pretty sticky right now.

I'll add that...

most of the shooting segments, in addition to your hilarious and accurate description, are usually gaunlets, meaning you cannot escape or go around them in any way. You can't even leave and come back later. You enter the gaunlet, Thunderdome style, 2 man enter 1 man leave. If you don't clear the gaunlet you don't advance in the game. That's probably the thing that most shifted the paradigm over to a basic action game for me. Can a game have both levels and levelups? Mass Effect 2 made me wonder.

Meanwhile, when I play Oblivion, even, I can go around any situation however I want. I can just steal stuff from people's basements all day, or I can sneak past goblins or neglect entire quest chains, ignore entire factions if I want. I don't ever have to do the main quest. Oblivion may not be best RPG ever, but it serves as a good foil to ME's "tight assed" linear level progression. I said level, not leveling....it's as though you're advancing through stages rather than advancing your character.

However, I do have to say, even though I agree that the plot was over the top and generally pretty dumb (I was so excited when Joker might have possibly died, then my heart sunk when I realized I'd have to keep listening to him), the writing was excellent and the lore behind Mass Effect is actually very strong. It's not the strongest in the genre, but considering it's not borrowing from Tolkein or some generic D&D mythos, it's actually pretty clever and probably the most charming part about the game is the originality in setting, does that sound dumb? But I was pleased to see that at least the script wasn't totally hamfisted even if the plot usually was. Even when the Illusive Man was doing ridiculous things, he sounded lovely doing it.

Funny, I love Joker lol.

Spoiler

Was glad to let Ashley die in the first game, she pissed me off with her "I'm not racist but..." spiel

Funny, I love Joker lol.

xMarex

I don't think anyone will argue that ME2 is more of an rpg than NW is.....

There are plenty of people willing to argue what the better game is though.

ME2s modding community sucks, therefore FONV is superior.

It's true that New Vegas is much more of an RPG than Mass Effect 2 -- which is, by the way, an RPG, regardless of your opinion -- due to the larger variety of possible actions and the different interactions you have with the NPC's of New Vegas' desert setting.

Mass Effect 2, however, was a much more polished experience, with overall better graphics, smoother menu interaction, a sweet combat system and a much less bugged experience.

It's true that New Vegas is much more of an RPG than Mass Effect 2 -- which is, by the way, an RPG, regardless of your opinion -- due to the larger variety of possible actions and the different interactions you have with the NPC's of New Vegas' desert setting.

Mass Effect 2, however, was a much more polished experience, with overall better graphics, smoother menu interaction, a sweet combat system and a much less bugged experience.

iAtrocious

EDIT: This pretty much sums it up for me on how I think of the two games.

ME 2 should not even be a called a RPG. The game has less customization than call of duty and the dialogue/choice system doesn't affect the game in anyway until the end.. and even still the only people affected are those around you, no where else is feels the consequences of your actions.. for someone who has to save the galaxy I sure as hell don't feel like an important figure, nor do I feel like any of my actions have significant or even noticeable effects in the galaxy.

ME 2 should not even be a called a RPG. The game has less customization than call of duty and the dialogue/choice system doesn't affect the game in anyway until the end.. and even still the only people affected are those around you, no where else is feels the consequences of your actions.. for someone who has to save the galaxy I sure as hell don't feel like an important figure, nor do I feel like any of my actions have significant or even noticeable effects in the galaxy.

Espada12

ME 2 should not even be a called a RPG. The game has less customization than call of duty and the dialogue/choice system doesn't affect the game in anyway until the end.. and even still the only people affected are those around you, no where else is feels the consequences of your actions.. for someone who has to save the galaxy I sure as hell don't feel like an important figure, nor do I feel like any of my actions have significant or even noticeable effects in the galaxy.

Espada12

So even though everywhere you go people say "Wow Sheppard, pleasure to talk to you!", especially Kelly *raises eyebrows*, you don't feel like Sheppard is an important figure?scar-hawk

That's pretty much limited to the citadel and even there it's very few and far between, everywhere else you are treated as everyone else would be. As someone who saved the universe once before and is going on a mission to do it again I don't feel like I'm an important figure.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

ME 2 should not even be a called a RPG. The game has less customization than call of duty and the dialogue/choice system doesn't affect the game in anyway until the end.. and even still the only people affected are those around you, no where else is feels the consequences of your actions.. for someone who has to save the galaxy I sure as hell don't feel like an important figure, nor do I feel like any of my actions have significant or even noticeable effects in the galaxy.

Avian005

I'm willing to bet they don't.. bioware promised that with ME2 and none of them played a major role. Could you give me the examples of the noticeable changes that are a result of your actions?