Wii is ruining gaming? The Official Ownage to Wii Haters *requests sticky*

^^^^I've talked to people living in Japan, those who moved from the U.S. and Europe. They said that Japan isn't racist just xenophobic. And Japan does buy American products so don't give that excuse ;)

Also there aren't ads like that with the Wii or PS3 they have at least SOME production into it.

Finally I think we of all people in the world Americans *assuming you are from America* should be the last people to criticize another country about "patriotism". :P

And if you thought THAT was bad try looking at their Gears of War ad.

Dencore

[spoiler] That first trailer actaully freaked me out xD She was sitting down and BOOM! But god knows what that has to do with Gears of War.

And ROFL at second commercial. [/spoiler]

^^^^I've talked to people living in Japan, those who moved from the U.S. and Europe. They said that Japan isn't racist just xenophobic. And Japan does buy American products so don't give that excuse ;)

Also there aren't ads like that with the Wii or PS3 they have at least SOME production into it.

Finally I think we of all people in the world Americans *assuming you are from America* should be the last people to criticize another country about "patriotism". :P

And if you thought THAT was bad try looking at their Gears of War ad.

Dencore

Hey I never said they were racist.I just said that they are patriotic.ofcourse they buy american products.for example the ipod did really well. because of it been marketed as a fashion accessory. but Sony is such a old company in Japan and so they would naturaly wont it to win over MS.It'll be better for japan if sony/nintendo do well so thats where the patriotism comes in right? btw I'm from NZ.lol

man that ad was asum!! the suspense almost killed me.lol

After 452 posts not one person has countered my argument. Have seen fanboys not read my post? Yes. Have we seen fanboys twist release dates and sales? Yes. Have we seen fanboys try to get off-topic by trying to have me contridict myself? Yes. Have we seen fanboys just flatout lie? Yes.

But after all this, have we seen anyone who prooved me wrong or just even so much as scratched my inital post? No.

This thread explains it all, what I listed in my initial post is cold solid fact that couldn't been argued.

Yet the fanboys ignored this thread? Why did they do that? They troll and rampage the "Wii is saving gaming thread" by stupid Nintendo fanboys who quote some stupid paragraph from something Reggie said. But why this thread?

Most of them just plainly ignored this thread that goes on for 20 pages +, yet they troll those threads with the first reply, now why is that?

Could it be that what I said is 100% fact so all the trolls and fanboys got scared and ignored my post?

Seriously this thread is full of legendary moments.

PhoebeusFlorus didn't even read the topic, then made another thread to troll the Wii.

Subrosian literally couldn't even think of anything to counter my argument. But I could tell he actually read it. How? He made a thread comparing the 360's million sellers *a system that has had almost a 2 year life span* to the Wii *a system that hasn't been out for even a year*. Now why did he do "million sellers"? Is it because he noticed that even though all the traditional games *as well as most third party Wii games* didn't break the "million" mark? I think yes.

Bill_Bumpkin claimed that the 360 had way more "core" game million sellers then the Wii at this time, when I did the comparison it only had ONE more actually. So what did he do? Leave the thread to troll some other threads.

Luckly some good came out of this thread as Northlandman, Sparkypants, and Great_Ragnarok all people who once believed that the Wii would bring a death to "core" gaming now see the light that it's just simply expanding the market and nothing more.

Almost half a thousand posts and noone has done so much as make a decent counter argument.

This last post I'm making isn't the end of the thread, but the end to this ridiculous belief that the Wii is ruining gaming.

So.

/Thread along with stupid misconsemptions of the Wii

Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!azad_champ

Yeah, it has bad graphics. But is it stopping from good games being produced? Why is Mario 64 my favourite game? It has terrible graphics for today's standard... Yet I still enjoy playing it today.

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!Eponique

Yeah, it has bad graphics. But is it stopping from good games being produced? Why is Mario 64 my favourite game? It has terrible graphics for today's standard... Yet I still enjoy playing it today.

...

. :P

I kid.

I really couldn't get into that game though.

[QUOTE="Eponique"]

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!Jandurin

Yeah, it has bad graphics. But is it stopping from good games being produced? Why is Mario 64 my favourite game? It has terrible graphics for today's standard... Yet I still enjoy playing it today.

...

. :P

I kid.

I really couldn't get into that game though.

The game was awesome though!

It had a perfect length it was fun. Although my favourite genre is platformers, yeah, that must be it.

It's sad how platformers are dying out slowly :( Everyone's buying the Sports, shooters and RPGs.

Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!azad_champ

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals? By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

^ In that case, you must have skipped the PS2.azad_champ

I had one =3 (Misconception! N64 was better!)

It was still being stomped by all the shooters and sports.

The lack of platformers this gen is just depressing :(

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]^ In that case, you must have skipped the PS2.Eponique

I had one =3 (Misconception! N64 was better!)

It was still being stomped by all the shooters and sports.

The lack of platformers this gen is just depressing :(

[QUOTE="Eponique"]

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]^ In that case, you must have skipped the PS2.Jandurin

I had one =3 (Misconception! N64 was better!)

It was still being stomped by all the shooters and sports.

The lack of platformers this gen is just depressing :(

N64 had Kirby 64, Mario 64, Banjo Kazooie and Tooie, Donkey Kong 64. It got me so obssessed with platformers I even bought Toy Story 2 and Power Rangers (I was 7 :evil:).

I couldn't get all the Platformers the PS2, my 2nd one died and I decided to not get another one. But the platformers I had were awesome :D

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!whoisryanmack

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals? By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

This is what I call 'ownage'.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!TekkenMaster606

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals? By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

This is what I call 'ownage'.

How can it be ownage? It's 30% telling him to not to brag 10% Hardcores bough the Wii first. and 60% predicting.

[QUOTE="TekkenMaster606"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!Eponique

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals? By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

This is what I call 'ownage'.

How can it be ownage? It's 30% telling him to not to brag 10% Hardcores bough the Wii first. and 60% predicting.

I wonder how you came up with those figures. If we go by post length, I'd say it's about 30% telling him not to brag, and 70% telling him why his post doesn't do much to prove anything. If anyone is predicting, it's dencore. He's using figures from a very small and insignificant data set to extrapolate the lifetime sales of all Wii games. Worse than that, his data set is severely biased due to it's being entirely from the first few months of release. All the PS2 stuff is meaningless, because Wii is not PS2.

All he asked for was a "dent in his argument". Well, there it is.

The lack of platformers this gen is just depressing :(Eponique

[QUOTE="TekkenMaster606"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!Eponique

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals? By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

This is what I call 'ownage'.

How can it be ownage? It's 30% telling him to not to brag 10% Hardcores bough the Wii first. and 60% predicting.

Dencore's argument is an absolute rambling mess based on cherry-picking games that failed to say "see - look - these games can't be harming the Wii's library, they're not succeding".

Yet look at the eight most successful games on the Wii - Wii Play, Wii Sports, Twilight Princess, Mario Party 8, Warioware, Super Paper Mario, Red Steel, and Raving Rabbids... does that really paint a hardcore library to you? I'm not putting a value judgement on it - but the Wii's library is predominantly casual / non-traditional titles, with a few core titles succeding because of the support from longtime Nintendo fans. It's also a system absolutely dominated by first party titles.

Dencore's hate-filled rant is nothing more than cherry-picked "facts" that leave out any numbers which contradict him. Basically, he's pointed at other system said "see, they have bad games too, and hardcore titles fail! hahahah!" and yet on the Xbox 360 the vast majority of the million-sellers have been hardcore titles, whereas on the Wii these titles represent a minority.

Dencore is wrong in saying that hardcore gamers are not the focus of anyone - obviously Microsoft's third parties are keen to cater to them, and he's wrong in simply using negative, deceptive facts to try and support some personal bias regarding the Wii. Frankly, I'm extremely dissapointed in the Nintendo fans who buy into his brand of argument.


Worse, the TC has no respect for the people who respond to his posts, I see no point in debating further, not because Dencore is correct, but because his eyes are completely closed to a viewpoint beyond his own, and he lashes out with hatred towards anyone who wants a calm discussion. When the TC wants to talk respectfully, and can summarize the points he's trying to get across, rather than pointing at some argument and saying "I'm 100% correct, and you're a moron for questioning me" - I'm but a PM away.

Dencore's argument is an absolute rambling mess based on cherry-picking games that failed to say "see - look - these games can't be harming the Wii's library, they're not succeding".

Yet look at the eight most successful games on the Wii - Wii Play, Wii Sports, Twilight Princess, Mario Party 8, Warioware, Super Paper Mario, Red Steel, and Raving Rabbids... does that really paint a hardcore library to you?

What's hardcore? The topic here is that THIRD PARTIES are making most of their profit from traditional games and not casual games. And Zelda Super Paper Mario, and Red Steel are all tradional games that many consider "hardcore". Wii Sports is packaged in, so that leaves you with.

Wii Play

Mario Party 8

WarioWare

Super Paper mario

Red Steel

Rayman

Zelda

3 traditonal, 3 casual. 1 third party casual. Again your argument prooves nothing but how uneducated you are.

'm not putting a value judgement on it - but the Wii's library is predominantly casual / non-traditional titles, with a few core titles succeding because of the support from longtime Nintendo fans. It's also a system absolutely dominated by first party titles.

Is that a joke or something? I posted that hte traditional third party games are outselling the casual third party games. Stop making stuff up.

Dencore's hate-filled rant is nothing more than cherry-picked "facts" that leave out any numbers which contradict him. Basically, he's pointed at other system said "see, they have bad games too, and hardcore titles fail! hahahah!" and yet on the Xbox 360 the vast majority of the million-sellers have been hardcore titles, whereas on the Wii these titles represent a minority.

Umm how many of those are "third party" one third party on there is traditional while one is "casual".

Dencore is wrong in saying that hardcore gamers are not the focus of anyone - obviously Microsoft's third parties are keen to cater to them, and he's wrong in simply using negative, deceptive facts to try and support some personal bias regarding the Wii. Frankly, I'm extremely dissapointed in the Nintendo fans who buy into his brand of argument.


Worse, the TC has no respect for the people who respond to his posts,

Because people like you pull stuff completly out of your butt.

I see no point in debating further, not because Dencore is correct, but because his eyes are completely closed to a viewpoint beyond his own, and he lashes out with hatred towards anyone who wants a calm discussiot some argument and saying "I'm 100% correct, and you're a moron for questioning me" - I'm but a PM away.n. When the TC wants to talk respectfully, and can summarize the points he's trying to get across, rather than pointing a

:lol:

subrosian

You just summarized the most patheitc argument. You claimed the third party casual games are outselling the core games when they aren't. Learn to read and do some research. What about the top selling third party games on the Wii? The majority *actually all but 1* of the top 10 selling games are traditional.

[QUOTE="azad_champ"]Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails. But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games. How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?!whoisryanmack

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals? By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

Don't see why he can't brag. The "best" arguement" so far is that the Wii is only a few months and that we have to wait for it to destroy gaming. Cyrstal balling that the Wii will destroy gaming isn't an arguement as much as it is wishful thinking for the sake of maybe winning an arguement. In the here and now and in the past, nothing points to the Wii destroying gaming. No one has been able to bring up anything to show otherwise, and more and more posts are just dissolving into bashes alongside the off-track and off-topic arguements which do not address the OP.

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals?

Why don't we look at what the top selling third party games are?

By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

WTF? So good selling games will suddenly stop selling? How are the games going to sell worse? Again more ridiculous statements.

This is what you literally said "A lot of gamers brought the Wii, but it's still early in it's life time so in the future when more people buy it, since everyone who was hardcore was intrested in it the core games will stop sellling".

Who said the core gamers were doing buying it?

Why would the games stop selling if the people who brought the games are still with the system?

whoisryanmack

Again more useless post that has no base and prooves absolutly nothing.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Dencore's argument is an absolute rambling mess based on cherry-picking games that failed to say "see - look - these games can't be harming the Wii's library, they're not succeding".

Yet look at the eight most successful games on the Wii - Wii Play, Wii Sports, Twilight Princess, Mario Party 8, Warioware, Super Paper Mario, Red Steel, and Raving Rabbids... does that really paint a hardcore library to you?

What's hardcore? The topic here is that THIRD PARTIES are making most of their profit from traditional games and not casual games.

'm not putting a value judgement on it - but the Wii's library is predominantly casual / non-traditional titles, with a few core titles succeding because of the support from longtime Nintendo fans. It's also a system absolutely dominated by first party titles.

Is that a joke or something? I posted that hte traditional third party games are outselling the casual third party games. Stop making stuff up.

Dencore's hate-filled rant is nothing more than cherry-picked "facts" that leave out any numbers which contradict him. Basically, he's pointed at other system said "see, they have bad games too, and hardcore titles fail! hahahah!" and yet on the Xbox 360 the vast majority of the million-sellers have been hardcore titles, whereas on the Wii these titles represent a minority.

Umm how many of those are "third party" one third party on there is traditional while one is "casual".

Dencore is wrong in saying that hardcore gamers are not the focus of anyone - obviously Microsoft's third parties are keen to cater to them, and he's wrong in simply using negative, deceptive facts to try and support some personal bias regarding the Wii. Frankly, I'm extremely dissapointed in the Nintendo fans who buy into his brand of argument.


Worse, the TC has no respect for the people who respond to his posts, I see no point in debating further, not because Dencore is correct, but because his eyes are completely closed to a viewpoint beyond his own, and he lashes out with hatred towards anyone who wants a calm discussion. When the TC wants to talk respectfully, and can summarize the points he's trying to get across, rather than pointing at some argument and saying "I'm 100% correct, and you're a moron for questioning me" - I'm but a PM away.

Dencore

You just summarized the most patheitc argument. You claimed the third party casual games are outselling the core games when they aren't. Learn to read.

Which is something you cannot disprove. The 360 is a hardcore-focused system, so obviously *someone* is focusing on the system - the majority of the games on the system are hardcore, and the third parties there are focused on hardcore titles. The audience that buys the Wii has a different taste in games than the audience that buys an Xbox 360.

But yes Dencore, you blast anyone who uses the big picture to prove you wrong, you insult anyone who replies, and you dismiss arguments that contradict your own narrow point-of-view. I'm done here man, your disrespect towards your fellow gamer is absolutely unacceptable. If you really care about someone's opinion other than your own, feel free to talk to me in private.

And Nintendo fans who support this, I'm dissapointed - I thought you could champion your point of view with some manners.

I wonder how you came up with those figures. If we go by post length, I'd say it's about 30% telling him not to brag, and 70% telling him why his post doesn't do much to prove anything.

If anyone is predicting, it's dencore.

This is going to be fun.

He's using figures from a very small and insignificant data

NPD and Media Create is small and insignificant? :lol:

VGcharts corrects its date every month so no it's very significant.

et to extrapolate the lifetime sales of all Wii games.

Worse than that, his data set is severely biased due to it's being entirely from the first few months of release.

Is this some type of joke? If a game sells it sells, who are you to say that casual games will start taking over the market if they aren't selling or making devs. as much money as traditional games.

All the PS2 stuff is meaningless, because Wii is not PS2.

All he asked for was a "dent in his argument". Well, there it is.

What dent all you did was mishmash words and say that the NPD and Media Create are insignificant. :|

whoisryanmack

Dencore, stop bragging. You have mentioned that good games sells well on Wii while crappy games fails.

But you have forgot a big factor in your argument: The hardware! Even though the games are good, it still doesn't change the fact that the games look like past-gen games.

:lol:

:lol:

:lol:

:lol:

So it's gone from casual games will take over to raw power? :lol:

How can the industry move forward when Nintendo offers almost the same hardrive but with a new controller?

i don't see how that's innovative.

Your opinion.

And this still doesn't change the fact that Ninty said very clearly during their press conference that they were aiming mostly at non-gamers.

Press coference? You mean the one where they re-announced Wii Fit and those cool perphials? Again the argument still fails because Nintendo has plenty of first party titles this year for the gamer.

They want everyone to play but to what cost?

$250.

It feels more and more like Ninty doesn't give a damn about the hardcore gamers and are now focusing much of their fire-power to attract new gamers.

YesMetroid Prime 3, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, buying Monoloth Studios, creating the Zapper, adding Wii Ware. Nintendo just fing HATES us!

This topic must go beyond sales charts. It's about companies making decisions that will change the gaming market.

Yes and they are announcing more tradional games.

azad_champ

What was the point of that post again?

Dencore, what are you trying to prove with this thread?

Are you trying to say that casual stuff sells while better games get forgotten? Any monkey can tell me that. Can you explain just what you are trying to accomplish to an outsider looking in?

Third party games aren't selling as well on the Wii period Dencore, learn to think before you spew hatred at me.

So 300,000-a million copies are considered "not selling"?

"It's also a system absolutely dominated by first party titles."

Did you read that, and understand why it makes your "third party failure based" arguement invalid? Nintendo publishes the majority of the best-selling games on their system, Microsoft and Sony don't.

Do you even know how third parties work if they want to make money? They publish and create games that THEY sell the most. And Nintendo AREN'T the third parties.

"Worse, the TC has no respect for the people who respond to his posts, I see no point in debating further, not because Dencore is correct, but because his eyes are completely closed to a viewpoint beyond his own, and he lashes out with hatred towards anyone who wants a calm discussion."

Did you read that before you felt the need to spew hate-filled words at me? Or did you cherry-pick my post too?

:lol: You quoted yourself?

When the TC wants to talk respectfully, and can summarize the points he's trying to get across, rather than pointing at some argument and saying "I'm 100% correct, and you're a moron for questioning me" - I'm but a PM away.


And it's true, I'm happy to discuss things calmly in a PM if you have a problem with my point of view. Ask anyone who's PMed me, I'm always happy to reply, and I'm always respectful in my discussion with fellow gamers, there's no need for hatred.

What's with the self quoting?

yet on the Xbox 360 the vast majority of the million-sellers have been hardcore titles, whereas on the Wii these titles represent a minority.

Yes because it's only been out twice as long as the Wii, while the tradional titles on the Wii represent the majority of the Wii's sales. Wait what was that posts point?

Which is something you cannot disprove.

I just did.

The 360 is a hardcore-focused system, so obviously *someone* is focusing on the system - the majority of the games on the system are hardcore, and the third parties there are focused on hardcore titles.

Third parties focus on what sells and makes them money, dedicated developers make what they want.

The audience that buys the Wii has a different taste in games than the audience that buys an Xbox 360.

Really?

But yes Dencore, you blast anyone who uses the big picture to prove you wrong, you insult anyone who replies, and you dismiss arguments that contradict your own narrow point-of-view. I'm done here man, your disrespect towards your fellow gamer is absolutely unacceptable. If you really care about someone's opinion other than your own, feel free to talk to me in private.

I dismiss you because you literally have no base to anything as everything you've said is prooven wrong by my initial post.

You said third party games aren't selliing when many have broken the quarter million mark.

You said that Nintendo games sell the most so third parties will follow, when they won't since their games that mimic Nintendo sell worse then the traditional games.

That is why I don't take you seriously for their sheer fact that your posts make no sense, irrelvent, and clearly have you grasping for any straws you can see.

And Nintendo fans who support this, I'm dissapointed - I thought you could champion your point of view with some manners.

I'm dissapointed that you can't read.

subrosian

Again you've prooven nothing with that post.

Dencore, what are you trying to prove with this thread?

Are you trying to say that casual stuff sells while better games get forgotten? Any monkey can tell me that. Can you explain just what you are trying to accomplish to an outsider looking in?

lafigueroa

You didn't read anything at all did you?

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

Dencore's argument is an absolute rambling mess based on cherry-picking games that failed to say "see - look - these games can't be harming the Wii's library, they're not succeding".

Yet look at the eight most successful games on the Wii - Wii Play, Wii Sports, Twilight Princess, Mario Party 8, Warioware, Super Paper Mario, Red Steel, and Raving Rabbids... does that really paint a hardcore library to you?

What's hardcore? The topic here is that THIRD PARTIES are making most of their profit from traditional games and not casual games.

'm not putting a value judgement on it - but the Wii's library is predominantly casual / non-traditional titles, with a few core titles succeding because of the support from longtime Nintendo fans. It's also a system absolutely dominated by first party titles.

Is that a joke or something? I posted that hte traditional third party games are outselling the casual third party games. Stop making stuff up.

Dencore's hate-filled rant is nothing more than cherry-picked "facts" that leave out any numbers which contradict him. Basically, he's pointed at other system said "see, they have bad games too, and hardcore titles fail! hahahah!" and yet on the Xbox 360 the vast majority of the million-sellers have been hardcore titles, whereas on the Wii these titles represent a minority.

Umm how many of those are "third party" one third party on there is traditional while one is "casual".

Dencore is wrong in saying that hardcore gamers are not the focus of anyone - obviously Microsoft's third parties are keen to cater to them, and he's wrong in simply using negative, deceptive facts to try and support some personal bias regarding the Wii. Frankly, I'm extremely dissapointed in the Nintendo fans who buy into his brand of argument.


Worse, the TC has no respect for the people who respond to his posts, I see no point in debating further, not because Dencore is correct, but because his eyes are completely closed to a viewpoint beyond his own, and he lashes out with hatred towards anyone who wants a calm discussion. When the TC wants to talk respectfully, and can summarize the points he's trying to get across, rather than pointing at some argument and saying "I'm 100% correct, and you're a moron for questioning me" - I'm but a PM away.

subrosian

You just summarized the most patheitc argument. You claimed the third party casual games are outselling the core games when they aren't. Learn to read.

Which is something you cannot disprove. The 360 is a hardcore-focused system, so obviously *someone* is focusing on the system - the majority of the games on the system are hardcore, and the third parties there are focused on hardcore titles. The audience that buys the Wii has a different taste in games than the audience that buys an Xbox 360.

But yes Dencore, you blast anyone who uses the big picture to prove you wrong, you insult anyone who replies, and you dismiss arguments that contradict your own narrow point-of-view. I'm done here man, your disrespect towards your fellow gamer is absolutely unacceptable. If you really care about someone's opinion other than your own, feel free to talk to me in private.

And Nintendo fans who support this, I'm dissapointed - I thought you could champion your point of view with some manners.

[QUOTE="lafigueroa"]

Dencore, what are you trying to prove with this thread?

Are you trying to say that casual stuff sells while better games get forgotten? Any monkey can tell me that. Can you explain just what you are trying to accomplish to an outsider looking in?

Dencore

You didn't read anything at all did you?

Actually I read all of it. That's how you come across. If you meant to say something diferent, that's your fault.

So tell me, exactly what were you trying to convince me?

I would join in this argument, but I have to go to lunch. I'll check if this thread is still active when I get back.

All I have to say right now is, subrosian, I think you're making this too personal. Until he has no response to what you say, the argument isn't over, and so he still has a point. At this rate, it'll just turn into a flame war.

I agree, you were absolutely owned here Dencore. Creating a post and calling it "official ownage" and then demanding a sticky for your own biased viewpoint is disgustingly arrogant. I'm bothered by your need to berate people. Some people like cheeseburgers, some people like chicken sandwiches - some people like hardcore gaming, some like casual gaming, but there's no need to come at people with hate-filled rants.

Subrosian's "good-bye Nintendo" - something you left GS for a period over,

What are you talking about?

was out of absolute love for gaming,

but all I see here is a poster cackling over failed hardcore titles,

Quarter Million-One million is failing?

ignoring the big picture,and taking an extremely narrow view of the whole, then dismissing the big picture because it does not support his bias.

My bias :lol:

Just what has anyone prooved in this thread? What?

They say that first party games are selling that attract casuals, however they leave out the third party games that attract casuals sell horribly.

They say that the casual games by third parties are selling good, when they aren't

They say the tradional games are selling bad when they've reached a quater million-million.

They say that Nintendo isn't releasing any games towards the gamer when they are releasing more first party gamer titles then Microsoft and as much as SONY.

There are people in here with "bias" but it isn't me.

bulb_or_parrot

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="lafigueroa"]

Dencore, what are you trying to prove with this thread?

Are you trying to say that casual stuff sells while better games get forgotten? Any monkey can tell me that. Can you explain just what you are trying to accomplish to an outsider looking in?

lafigueroa

You didn't read anything at all did you?

Actually I read all of it. That's how you come across. If you meant to say something diferent, that's your fault.

So tell me, exactly what were you trying to convince me?

Everything you said was prooven opposite.

[QUOTE="lafigueroa"][QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="lafigueroa"]

Dencore, what are you trying to prove with this thread?

Are you trying to say that casual stuff sells while better games get forgotten? Any monkey can tell me that. Can you explain just what you are trying to accomplish to an outsider looking in?

Dencore

You didn't read anything at all did you?

Actually I read all of it. That's how you come across. If you meant to say something diferent, that's your fault.

So tell me, exactly what were you trying to convince me?

Everything you said was prooven opposite.

Dencore, what are you trying to prove with this thread?

Are you trying to say that casual stuff sells while better games get forgotten? Any monkey can tell me that. Can you explain just what you are trying to accomplish to an outsider looking in?

lafigueroa

Any monkey can make a response like yours. Since you have the main point of the OP downpat already, feel free to make the connection of how the Wii is killing gaming with casual titles when casual titles have historically sold better than core titles.

Annnnd.. GO!

I would join in this argument, but I have to go to lunch. I'll check if this thread is still active when I get back.

All I have to say right now is, subrosian, I think you're making this too personal. Until he has no response to what you say, the argument isn't over, and so he still has a point. At this rate, it'll just turn into a flame war.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

There are people in here with "bias" but it isn't me.

Dencore

No, it wasn't dencore. What is your core argument? Your argument is not supported by the cherry-picked facts you've put out, and your "rebuttal" to any question, rather than simply answering, is to be rude.
subrosian

What's the point of my post? What's the core argument? Read the topic title. "Cherry-Picked" facts? WTF people are saying that devs will abbandoned *because we all know there aren't any dedicated devs out there* tradional games for casual games, when the traditional games still pull in a profit, when I prooved not only that licenses and sports do and always have, alongside that the tradinal games have been selling very well and are the best selling on the Wii. Simple answering? Well that's all your statements needed. Third Parties do NOT care what sells with First Parties but what sells with them. Third Party games aren't selling bad on the Wii many have broken the quarter million and a few even the million mark. So why did I simply answer those statements? Because they were simply wrong.

No, it wasn't dencore.

He said casual games on the Wii have lately been selling more then the core games with publishers that is false.

subrosian

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

No, it wasn't dencore. What is your core argument? Your argument is not supported by the cherry-picked facts you've put out, and your "rebuttal" to any question, rather than simply answering, is to be rude.
Dencore

What's the point of my post? What's the core argument? Read the topic title. "Cherry-Picked" facts? WTF people are saying that devs will abbandoned *because we all know there aren't any dedicated devs out there* tradional games for casual games, when the traditional games still pull in a profit, when I prooved not only that licenses and sports do and always have, alongside that the tradinal games have been selling very well and are the best selling on the Wii. Simple answering? Well that's all your statements needed. Third Parties do NOT care what sells with First Parties but what sells with them. Third Party games aren't selling bad on the Wii many have broken the quarter million and a few even the million mark. So why did I simply answer those statements? Because they were simply wrong.

I expect better of you than to walk into this mess. True Nintendo fans should stand behind people who love gaming, not people who's only retort is to spout illogical non-sense.

His retort to me was to say "publishers are going to make the games Nintendo isn't making" - yes, publishers love taking huge risks with their multi-million dollar projects by ignoring the demographics of a system. That worked *really well* on the Gamecube, didn't it?

What are you talking about? They've already published games for the gamer and they've all sold very well, and there taking it up step by step. And if your logic flies then why are companies like Kojima Productions and Silent Hill Team making their games instead of just another shooter? Or did you even look at this chart?

Why wouldn't devs make only sports and licenses?

Dencore is absolutely closed-minded, his argument is not supported by the points he puts out there, and he dismisses legitimate, well-reasoned rebuttals with illogical non-sense, or arguments that do not refute the point.

No I just simply don't like lying or things that aren't true.

Further, he endlessly cherry-picks,

What's with that word?

he cannot refute the counter-argument on the whole, so he focuses on one insignificant point of contention. He is, at heart, completely missing the big picture.

What big picture? You literally haven't done anything but list false statements as "third parties care about what sells with first parties not themselves", "third parties sell horribly on the Wii".

You've literally prooved absoltely nothing with these false statements.

subrosian

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

No, it wasn't dencore.

He said casual games on the Wii have lately been selling more then the core games with publishers that is false.

Dencore

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

I would join in this argument, but I have to go to lunch. I'll check if this thread is still active when I get back.

All I have to say right now is, subrosian, I think you're making this too personal. Until he has no response to what you say, the argument isn't over, and so he still has a point. At this rate, it'll just turn into a flame war.

subrosian

What the OP did was paint "the big picture." The big picture being that causal games sell better than core games. This is how it's been for a long time. It's been this way before the Wii showed up on the gaming scene. How can the Wii kill gaming if casual titles have *always* commanded the lion's share of developer income? How can the Wii kill gaming if casual titles are recieved better on a whole than core games? Yes there are hit core titles that sell millions, but for eachone of these hyped core titles, there are sevearl casual games that sneak under the hardcore radar and sell millions. Gaming wasn't killed back then.

The big picture shows that the majority of gamers are casual and buy casual titles. That's why the Wii is in the lead this time around is because they were the one who captured the casual market this time, not the Playstation.

What makes the Wii so special that it will kill gaming? No one has pointed this out or even made the connection. The sales are there, the facts are there. Afterall *sports* games are the best selling titles of all genres, that in itself should tell you something about how much of a footing core games have in the video game industry to begin with.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

I would join in this argument, but I have to go to lunch. I'll check if this thread is still active when I get back.

All I have to say right now is, subrosian, I think you're making this too personal. Until he has no response to what you say, the argument isn't over, and so he still has a point. At this rate, it'll just turn into a flame war.

RahnAetas

What the OP did was paint "the big picture." The big picture being that causal games sell better than core games. This is how it's been for a long time. It's been this way before the Wii showed up on the gaming scene. How can the Wii kill gaming if casual titles have *always* commanded the lion's share of developer income? How can the Wii kill gaming if casual titles are recieved better on a whole than core games? Yes there are hit core titles that sell millions, but for eachone of these hyped core titles, there are sevearl casual games that sneak under the hardcore radar and sell millions. Gaming wasn't killed back then.

The big picture shows that the majority of games are casual and buy casual titles. That's why the Wii is in the lead this time around is because they were the one who captured the casual market this time, not the Playstation.

What makes the Wii so special that it will kill gaming? No one has pointed this out or even made the connection. The sales are there, the facts are there. Afterall *sports* games are the best selling titles of all genres, that in itself should tell you something about how much of a footing core games have in the video game industry to begin with.

Only 2 of the 8 million selling games on the Wii are third party titles,

Who cares if they reached a million a game doesn't have to be a million seller to be a "great selling" game, let alone to make a lot of profit.

and both of those came out during the game-starved launch period. You cannot paint a picture of what the Wii is as a system without the first party titles, any Wii debate that leaves out Nintendo titles is a biased, worthless mess.

How is it a worthless mess? Third party's don't care what sells with other companies but themselves.

Why should a third party focus on the Wii, when the Xbox 360 offers them a platform where third party games sell better?

What does that have to do with anything at all with the first post or what I'm stating? Also how many "serious" third party games created ground up for the Wii came out?

Further, how can you claim third parties are even *shaping* the Wii, when it's Nintendo's titles that hold the most sales,

Because they are announcing more titles and their games have sold alot possibly?

Nintendo's titles that are most anticipated, and Nintendo's titles that are consistently the highest quality titles on the system.

What does this have to do with anything?

Deny it Dencore, deny that Nintendo makes the best games on their system, deny that 75% of the million-sellers on the Wii were published by Nintendo, deny that the third parties have *not* been dominating the Wii software sales since the launch window.

What does this have to do with anything at all? Really now this has nothing to do about how the Wii is ruining gaming.

The fact of the matter is - you're completely wrong about the Wii,and you simply insult anyone, or dismiss them by picking one minor point out of their whole argument - because your angle doesn't work when you open your eyes to view what games are doing *well* on each system.

WTF are you talking about? You list a bunch of pointless facts and assumptions that have literally nothing at all to do with the topic and use them against me? At least when I insult people it's as of what they are saying, I just don't put words in peoples mouths and try to create statements so I can proove them wrong.
subrosian

It seems to me that you tryed arguing with me, releaized that third parties don't give a damn about what sells with first partys and now your trying to completly de-rail this thread off-topic.

The two million selling games from third parties on the Wii are casual titles - Rayman Raving Rabbids and Red Steel.

How the hell is Red Steel casual? It's a FPS.

Are you trying to defy the sales charts?

Yes I prooved you wrong.

Casual titles on the Wii are outselling hardcore titles, I've said that multiple times, I misspoke in that cherry picked quoted.

The thing is third party casual titles AREN't. And the second best selling Wii game *since Wii Sports is bundled in* is Zelda. :|

Again Dencore, if your entire rebuttal revolves around typos, you've already lost.

:lol:

This thread just keeps getting better and better.
subrosian

[QUOTE="RahnAetas"][QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

I would join in this argument, but I have to go to lunch. I'll check if this thread is still active when I get back.

All I have to say right now is, subrosian, I think you're making this too personal. Until he has no response to what you say, the argument isn't over, and so he still has a point. At this rate, it'll just turn into a flame war.

subrosian

What the OP did was paint "the big picture." The big picture being that causal games sell better than core games. This is how it's been for a long time. It's been this way before the Wii showed up on the gaming scene. How can the Wii kill gaming if casual titles have *always* commanded the lion's share of developer income? How can the Wii kill gaming if casual titles are recieved better on a whole than core games? Yes there are hit core titles that sell millions, but for eachone of these hyped core titles, there are sevearl casual games that sneak under the hardcore radar and sell millions. Gaming wasn't killed back then.

The big picture shows that the majority of games are casual and buy casual titles. That's why the Wii is in the lead this time around is because they were the one who captured the casual market this time, not the Playstation.

What makes the Wii so special that it will kill gaming? No one has pointed this out or even made the connection. The sales are there, the facts are there. Afterall *sports* games are the best selling titles of all genres, that in itself should tell you something about how much of a footing core games have in the video game industry to begin with.

That doesn't matter. It just continues the trend that has existed through out each generation of console gaming. Casual games sell more than core games. It exists on the Wii, it existed on the PS2, and it existed in every gernation prior. That does not prove the Wii is destroying gaming.

What's more, the casual titles that many proclaim is killing gaming (like Cooking Mama) are failing to sell.

No what the OP did was ignore the big picture by completely failing to address that six of the eight top-selling games on the Wii are casual titles, and that the people saying "Twilight Princess and Super Paper Mario are the only hardcore games that have done well on the Wii" are absolutely correct.
subrosian

Where the hell did you get that a game needs to sell more then a million copies is to sell good? Tell me this why do you think this? Because it is REALLY rare to have a game sell that much.

Take a look at this chart.

There's only been 5 million sellers so far that premered this year in North America. I just don't get why you think a million is common or is the breaking point for a game because it really isn't at all.

Out of the hundreds of games that came out so far this year, only 5 of them broke the million mark in America with only 3 others that if you count the world-wide sales they broke the million mark.

So out of the hundereds of games released this year only 7 broke the million mark.

Now tell me why would the Wii have so many third party million sellers if it only has 40 games on it?

Where on Earth do you get this ridiculous idea? Because a million seller is VERY rare.

That doesn't matter. It just continues the trend that has existed through out each generation of console gaming. Casual games sell more than core games. It exists on the Wii, it existed on the PS2, and it existed in every gernation prior. That does not prove the Wii is destroying gaming.

What's more, the casual titles that many proclaim is killing gaming (like Cooking Mama) are failing to sell.

RahnAetas

It's pointless noone will listen to you.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

AMEN! If you're really so impressed with your argument, acting like a little kid boasting every other post about it is taking away any cred you had to start. Calling everyone who disagrees a fanboy and telling them they don't understand your post is weak.

For the last time, the best counterargument to yours is....look who is most likely to have bought the Wii in it's first months. Hardcores, or casuals?

Why don't we look at what the top selling third party games are?

By definition, it should be more hardcores thanwill ever be buying the Wii again, that's why they're hardcore. So...which games will probably do well in the beginning? Moreso than that, there aren't very many Wii games. This argument doesn't do much in the first 9 months of release, bring some statistics in when there's an actual data set that represents something meaningful.

WTF? So good selling games will suddenly stop selling? How are the games going to sell worse? Again more ridiculous statements.

This is what you literally said "A lot of gamers brought the Wii, but it's still early in it's life time so in the future when more people buy it, since everyone who was hardcore was intrested in it the core games will stop sellling".

Who said the core gamers were doing buying it?

Why would the games stop selling if the people who brought the games are still with the system?

Dencore

Again more useless post that has no base and prooves absolutly nothing.

Much like yours which is based on a very few facts from what will become a much larger set of facts. The point of my post is that you don't know the answers any more than I do. You are simply guess that because something is one way this minute, it will be that way the next. Sorry, you're gonna have to do better than that for "official ownage".

It would also be nice if you could traditionally quote so I could respond. As it is, I'm not going to go back and cut this all up to respond. I wouldn't need to anyhow, all you've got is a flimsy argument, and a bunch of speculative questions as counters...that is, for the points I can actually understand through that writing.

and thanks for quoting me entirely incorrectly btw. What I literally said was what I literally said, in literal form, words. Wii's fanbase is made up of proportionally more hardcore gamers at this point than it will ever be again. So, if the hardcore games are selling well now, you can't expect that trend to continue. As the proportion settles to 90% casuals, game sale trends will change, likely towards "crap games". Quote that.

and thanks for quoting me entirely incorrectly btw. What I literally said was what I literally said, in literal form, words. Wii's fanbase is made up of proportionally more hardcore gamers at this point than it will ever be again. So, if the hardcore games are selling well now, you can't expect that trend to continue. As the proportion settles to 90% casuals, game sale trends will change, likely towards "crap games". Quote that.

whoisryanmack

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So a publisher is going ignore a fanbase that they make millions from? Why would they ignore a million makning market base tell me? As I've said before a publisher won't publish a game that's set for one demographic at the same time, and as I've said before this is nothing new. With EA's Madden, Licensed Games, and BLACK all being released in one year. Publishers won't publish more then one type of game at the same time, because they'd eat each others sales which has been prooven. One group over another IS nothing new as prooven with this chart.

If your statements were true, devs would make nothing but just Sports and Licenses, but is that true? Is all we see in todays gaming are just a bunch of Tony Hawk clones and Cartoon Licensed titles? No.

Hell look how much Licenses and Sports outnumber shooters and RPG's they more then double it. Now this chart recorded the best selling games of last year so it has the most influence as of what publishers who care about money create, and look at the PS3's and 360's current 2007 line-up, almost every game is a shooter or an RPG as the "killer games".

This is where your argument falls compeltly flat on its face. We've always been outnumberd by a certain genre, nothing is changing. Unless for some reason core gamers that own a Wii die, they will keep buying games for the system.

You just owned yourself by stating that "Hannah Montana" sold over a half a million copies. That is exactly the reason people are claiming the Wii is ruining gaming. From crappy games like that.sonicare

Hannah Montana wasn't on the Wii. :|

You just owned yourself by stating that "Hannah Montana" sold over a half a million copies. That is exactly the reason people are claiming the Wii is ruining gaming. From crappy games like that.sonicare

Bulletproof sold over 1 million copies. But all games aren't crappy shooters now.