With the sales slump, month, after month. Will we need another NES like savior?
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With the sales slump, month, after month. Will we need another NES like savior?
Threebabycows
no good games = lower hardware sales. its been said many times
I certainly hope so.
As always, PC remains independent and would not be affected if the consoles have another industry crash (just like C64 was dominating Europe when Atari 2600 failed.) In fact it might do some good, we'd have more innovative and ambitious games again.
[QUOTE="Threebabycows"]
With the sales slump, month, after month. Will we need another NES like savior?
gangster480
no good games = lower hardware sales. its been said many times
The wii seems to have alot of games this year, and I doubt the average customer checks revews.
I certainly hope so.
As always, PC remains independent and would not be affected if the consoles have another industry crash (just like C64 was dominating Europe when Atari 2600 failed.) In fact it might do some good, we'd have more innovative and ambitious games again.
HenriH-42
The only thing consoles change is what graphics are going on screen, consoles are good enough for now, gameplay is up to the dev.
its already deadWith the sales slump, month, after month. Will we need another NES like savior?
Threebabycows
if this economy gets worse probably games are a luxury not a necessity if things get worse people will buy necessities not luxuries so gaming companies financially will go bankrupt.
simslifer
For once I understand your reasoning, maybe because it is not a 360 vs. PS3 thread:lol:
[QUOTE="Threebabycows"]its already deadWith the sales slump, month, after month. Will we need another NES like savior?
gamesrdead4200
Trolling.........
Video Game industry = Recession proof
Tronogy
um... I think this trend proves other wise. The only industry I can see recession proof, is the music one, and even then people will just pirate the music.
Sadly it is. It is because of the economy. People can't afford to buy systems and games. A NES like savior won't do anything unless it is awesome and under $100.
Sadly it is. It is because of the economy. People can't afford to buy systems and games. A NES like savior won't do anything unless it is awesome and under $100.
randomwiiplayer
Nah just needs to be around 200$, were consoles should stay IMO.
No, I don't think so. But what would really kill the gaming industry is if all three companies were to go full DD next gen. That's right, you'll be looking at the repeat of the video game crash of '83 & '84 all over again.
No, I don't think so. But what would really kill the gaming industry is if all three companies were to go full DD next gen. That's right, you'll be looking at the repeat of the video game crash of '83 & '84 all over again.
garland51
Why there would still be competition, multiplats would be competitivly price between the consoles.
[QUOTE="garland51"]
No, I don't think so. But what would really kill the gaming industry is if all three companies were to go full DD next gen. That's right, you'll be looking at the repeat of the video game crash of '83 & '84 all over again.
Threebabycows
Why there would still be competition, multiplats would be competitivly price between the consoles.
But the thing is, is that a lot of people aren't ready for full DD yet, not to mention that not everyone has internet & that there hasn't been highly super-duper speed for the internet as of now.
[QUOTE="randomwiiplayer"]
Sadly it is. It is because of the economy. People can't afford to buy systems and games. A NES like savior won't do anything unless it is awesome and under $100.
Threebabycows
Nah just needs to be around 200$, were consoles should stay IMO.
True,even with the economy the way it is thousands of systems are sold a day. I would be bored almost all the time if gaming dies.
And you base your claims on... what precisely? Anyone with an economics background or general knowledge of history will point out a *rise* in the entertainment industry during recessions. Hollywood is where it is today in our culture (and economically) because of depression-era film. The slump we're seeing now is coming from a lack of big-name games and the general seasonal decline. Come September / October, when the big games drop, and price cuts go through, and you'll be seeing sales look fine.if this economy gets worse probably games are a luxury not a necessity if things get worse people will buy necessities not luxuries so gaming companies financially will go bankrupt.
simslifer
As long as people still play games I don't see how it can really die.Reiji-Arisu
I think he means the gaming industry.
Even if it does die,some company(most likely Nintendo) will probably whip out some genius console when the economy gets better.
Not to be rude, but were you even *alive* during the videogame crash of 1983 ~ 1984? The crash of '83 and '84 happened because of how brick-n-mortar retailers work, the complete breakdown of quality controls on consoles, a low barrier to entry for non-gaming companies, and a lack of consumer information. Aka: 1. The publishers were all poor, and were replacing "old" product with rushed, low-quality "new" product as per their agreements with retailers. Precisely because they were issuing new games as "credit" for unsold old titles (something that can never happen in a digital marketplace - since no physical product needs to be moved) they were treading water, and often bankrupting. When these pubs went bankrupt, retailers were left with unsold, poor quality product, which they would bargain bin, uniquely taking dollars away from better games. - 2. Legal battles completely removed constraints on publication on the existing consoles, meaning *anyone* could shove out games. Without the modern licensing system in place, this meant you could see someone like Sears making a videogame - and you can only imagine how badly that turned out. - 3. Games were far less expensive to make. With modern games wielding complex (read - expensive) 3D graphics, it's much harder for a "nobody" to pump out a title. The modern licensing fees also make it difficult for studios to publish. These two, combined, result in a high barrier to entry for full games. While things like "indie games" and "XBLA" provide lower barriers, they are clearly divided from the "full price" marketplace, and have restrictions that prevent them from competing with "full" games. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo have clearly segmented their marketplace, so that even if they were to go fully digital, they control the price points, and prevent flooding. - 4. Consumers have more information than ever - reviews, blogs, videos, magazines, etc. In fact, the 360 marketplace just got a *rating system* - so that gamers can instantly see where a game stands in the community. I can't imagine Nintendo or Sony being too far behind with their own versions of this. STEAM already displays the metascore of every game in the digital catalog - publisher's can't escape the community feedback on their games. Unlike the 1980s marketplace, or even the *physical* marketplace of today (notice games don't have ratings on them at Target or GameStop), in the digital markeplace, every game must suffer it's public image. - - Reality - the digital marketplace is actually BETTER for preventing a crash than the physical one. Retailer's in the digital marketplace won't bargain-bin excess stock (since they have no physical stock ), meaning they don't flood the channel with cheap product (hurting the sales of new games). The digital marketplace removes used games, meaning the *billions* stolen from developers by GameStop every year will instead go back to the people who make games. Even if the price were to go *down*, the removal of the used games marketplace would *increase* profits. AND - the coup de grace here - the digital markeplace allows perfect channel control. Games are released exactly when intended, can be removed exactly as intended, and the price changes, sales, and promotions can happen precisely when they need to. Perfect channel control is what prevents a crash - you can adjust pricing, availability, bundles, and add-ons instantly. During the slow summer months, you can offer tons of games sales to move older titles - then instantly bring the prices back up for the Fall season, when you want people to buy your new games. You can offer "bundles" of popular titles to make money over the holidays, then remove those bundles in January to ensure you maximize your giftcard dollars. - Frankly, the attacks on digital distribution are simply prosophobia. An old generation of gamers who grew up with discs have become ludites, lashing out irrationally against a superior method of receiving games.No, I don't think so. But what would really kill the gaming industry is if all three companies were to go full DD next gen. That's right, you'll be looking at the repeat of the video game crash of '83 & '84 all over again.
garland51
[QUOTE="simslifer"]And you base your claims on... what precisely? Anyone with an economics background or general knowledge of history will point out a *rise* in the entertainment industry during recessions. Hollywood is where it is today in our culture (and economically) because of depression-era film. The slump we're seeing now is coming from a lack of big-name games and the general seasonal decline. Come September / October, when the big games drop, and price cuts go through, and you'll be seeing sales look fine.if this economy gets worse probably games are a luxury not a necessity if things get worse people will buy necessities not luxuries so gaming companies financially will go bankrupt.
subrosian
so you come to tell me people are low of cash they are struggling to feed their children so they will use money to buy a PS3 or X360 instead ?
everyone knows if times get worse videogames is the least to worry about.
look at the great depression you think the people in those times were worried about owning a TV or a new expensive rug no they were worried about having money to feed their children.
[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="simslifer"]
if this economy gets worse probably games are a luxury not a necessity if things get worse people will buy necessities not luxuries so gaming companies financially will go bankrupt.
And you base your claims on... what precisely? Anyone with an economics background or general knowledge of history will point out a *rise* in the entertainment industry during recessions. Hollywood is where it is today in our culture (and economically) because of depression-era film. The slump we're seeing now is coming from a lack of big-name games and the general seasonal decline. Come September / October, when the big games drop, and price cuts go through, and you'll be seeing sales look fine.so you come to tell me people are low of cash they are struggling to feed their children so they will use money to buy a PS3 or X360 instead ?
everyone knows if times get worse videogames is the least to worry about.
look at the great depression you think the people in those times were worried about owning a TV or a new expensive rug no they were worried about having money to feed their children.
Lmao, these kids don't understand you Sub. They clearly aren't thinking deeply.Lmao, these kids don't understand you Sub. They clearly aren't thinking deeply.TheBigBadGRIMYou're right - it's frustrating, but I keep trying anyway. We've got the neo-luddites bashing digital distribution, we've got the self-proclaimed economists making predictions with zero understanding of the gaming audience, and we've got the fanboys... oh the fanboys. - It's a swell mix, and one of these days I'm going to lose it and make some thirty page post explaining exactly how all of this stuff works. The couple hundred people who actually get it will spend the rest of their days haunted - the synaptic damage of understanding *exactly how the world works* being wholly irreversible. "It's life..." the doctors will say "the ultimate terminal illness". -
so you come to tell me people are low of cash they are struggling to feed their children so they will use money to buy a PS3 or X360 instead simsliferYes, obviously - because the cripplingly poor have always comprised such a large portion of the entertainment market... ( /sarcasm )
everyone knows if times get worse videogames is the least to worry about.simsliferThe depression doesn't just impact those who were already in poverty. The primary consumers are still consumers - they simply shy away from the larger luxury purchases. They're not going to Neiman Marcus as often, they're buying fuel-efficient cars instead of leasing luxury vehicles, they've taken a "stay-cation", and they're debt-adverse. That doesn't mean they won't buy a PS3, download an iPhone app, or buy a videogame.
look at the great depression you think the people in those times were worried about owning a TV or a new expensive rug no they were worried about having money to feed their children.simslifer1. The vast majority of the world IS NOT a 2-parent household with children. - 2. What's with the extreme poverty examples (yet again)? Are you starving to death? Are you struggling to find *food to eat*, as in you are on the street begging for scraps? If that's the case, in all seriousness, what are you doing on a computer at this hour? I implore you to skip the debate and please find one of the many organizations dedicated to helping those in need. In fact, I will be more than happy to make a donation on your behalf to whatever aid organization you choose (seriously). - Most people who are the target audience of gaming companies *aren't* in that situation. They have it rough, yes, it's "bad", yes - but compare the situation in the Japan / Europe / North America primary market for consoles as though Microsoft is trying to sell 360's to homeless people is *absurd*. It's an exaggeration that's simply ridiculous.
[QUOTE="Threebabycows"]
[QUOTE="garland51"]
No, I don't think so. But what would really kill the gaming industry is if all three companies were to go full DD next gen. That's right, you'll be looking at the repeat of the video game crash of '83 & '84 all over again.
garland51
Why there would still be competition, multiplats would be competitivly price between the consoles.
But the thing is, is that a lot of people aren't ready for full DD yet, not to mention that not everyone has internet & that there hasn't been highly super-duper speed for the internet as of now.
Or the fact people like me do not like the idea of buying something I cannot sell if I don't like it. It would definitely be the end of gaming for me.
[QUOTE="garland51"]
[QUOTE="Threebabycows"]
Why there would still be competition, multiplats would be competitivly price between the consoles.
360hammer
But the thing is, is that a lot of people aren't ready for full DD yet, not to mention that not everyone has internet & that there hasn't been highly super-duper speed for the internet as of now.
Or the fact people like me do not like the idea of buying something I cannot sell if I don't like it. It would definitely be the end of gaming for me.
same[QUOTE="garland51"]
[QUOTE="Threebabycows"]
Why there would still be competition, multiplats would be competitivly price between the consoles.
360hammer
But the thing is, is that a lot of people aren't ready for full DD yet, not to mention that not everyone has internet & that there hasn't been highly super-duper speed for the internet as of now.
Or the fact people like me do not like the idea of buying something I cannot sell if I don't like it. It would definitely be the end of gaming for me.
You would stop gaming if you couldn't resell? I feel sorry for you. What happened to collecting games , movies and music? Did that all go down the toilet becasue of places like gamestop? I have been video collecting since the 80's and the only time I have sold my console/games was with the ps1 and all the older consoles from before that (atari 2600, nes, snes, gene, tg-16) why , I needed to pay for rent as I lost my job briefly back in 2001.... And I am still mad as hell i don't have my vagrant story, legend of dragoon, bushido blade, suikoden 1 and 2, ff 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 discs, parasite eve, 3 tomb raiders, musashi, blood omen, legacy of kain, loaded, legia, devils crush, alien crush, etc.etc......all those old games gone.... Thank god for psn store... we just need more games for it. Since then i have only traded in 2 games, untold legends and godfather 2, because they sucked and I knew i would never pick them up again. All others I save on my media rotator and shelves.. I love having the physcial cases w/art, and being able to pick up any game at any time I want. In fact I just started playing ninja gaiden sigma in preperation for the sequel. And on PC , I got have the 17 disc D and D game edtion..(it was only $40) and i can play planescape torment or baldur's gate when ever i want. It's nice to collect, seriously you will be missing out if you quit gaming if you can't resell.[QUOTE="TheBigBadGRIM"]Lmao, these kids don't understand you Sub. They clearly aren't thinking deeply.subrosianYou're right - it's frustrating, but I keep trying anyway. We've got the neo-luddites bashing digital distribution, we've got the self-proclaimed economists making predictions with zero understanding of the gaming audience, and we've got the fanboys... oh the fanboys. - It's a swell mix, and one of these days I'm going to lose it and make some thirty page post explaining exactly how all of this stuff works. The couple hundred people who actually get it will spend the rest of their days haunted - the synaptic damage of understanding *exactly how the world works* being wholly irreversible. "It's life..." the doctors will say "the ultimate terminal illness". -
so you come to tell me people are low of cash they are struggling to feed their children so they will use money to buy a PS3 or X360 instead simsliferYes, obviously - because the cripplingly poor have always comprised such a large portion of the entertainment market... ( /sarcasm )
everyone knows if times get worse videogames is the least to worry about.simsliferThe depression doesn't just impact those who were already in poverty. The primary consumers are still consumers - they simply shy away from the larger luxury purchases. They're not going to Neiman Marcus as often, they're buying fuel-efficient cars instead of leasing luxury vehicles, they've taken a "stay-cation", and they're debt-adverse. That doesn't mean they won't buy a PS3, download an iPhone app, or buy a videogame.
look at the great depression you think the people in those times were worried about owning a TV or a new expensive rug no they were worried about having money to feed their children.simslifer1. The vast majority of the world IS NOT a 2-parent household with children. - 2. What's with the extreme poverty examples (yet again)? Are you starving to death? Are you struggling to find *food to eat*, as in you are on the street begging for scraps? If that's the case, in all seriousness, what are you doing on a computer at this hour? I implore you to skip the debate and please find one of the many organizations dedicated to helping those in need. In fact, I will be more than happy to make a donation on your behalf to whatever aid organization you choose (seriously). - Most people who are the target audience of gaming companies *aren't* in that situation. They have it rough, yes, it's "bad", yes - but compare the situation in the Japan / Europe / North America primary market for consoles as though Microsoft is trying to sell 360's to homeless people is *absurd*. It's an exaggeration that's simply ridiculous.
Ive read a couple of your posts before and i flat out dont understand why you would come to a place like this. Nothing is taken seriously and trying to explain a logical point is just redundant as the odds are the average poster would stop reading after the first few sentences....
Dont get me wrong, its always a pleasure to read a post that actually seems thought out, but in a situation like this one, its feels about as practical as trying to start a theological discussion in the middle of a frat party, while playing a game of beer pong....
Though not for the reasons stated in this thread, I think if the games industry wants to avoid another crash it has to change how it approaches things.
The games market cannot afford a repeat of this generation, if things go as usual in the transition to next gen it will become a problem for game companies.
I think we are at a turning point in gaming with this generation. The next generation is going to have to be very different in some way than this one, we can't just keep bumping up the graphics and polygon count while keeping the games the same and expect the industry to continue to thrive...
...but unfortunately, while I think I see a problem I do not have any suggestions on how to go about resolving it. My biggest fear is that full digital distribution really is going to become the future of gaming, and the day that happens is the day I am no longer a gamer.
[QUOTE="360hammer"][QUOTE="garland51"]
But the thing is, is that a lot of people aren't ready for full DD yet, not to mention that not everyone has internet & that there hasn't been highly super-duper speed for the internet as of now.
Midnightshade29
Or the fact people like me do not like the idea of buying something I cannot sell if I don't like it. It would definitely be the end of gaming for me.
You would stop gaming if you couldn't resell? I feel sorry for you. What happened to collecting games , movies and music? Did that all go down the toilet becasue of places like gamestop? I have been video collecting since the 80's and the only time I have sold my console/games was with the ps1 and all the older consoles from before that (atari 2600, nes, snes, gene, tg-16) why , I needed to pay for rent as I lost my job briefly back in 2001.... And I am still mad as hell i don't have my vagrant story, legend of dragoon, bushido blade, suikoden 1 and 2, ff 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 discs, parasite eve, 3 tomb raiders, musashi, blood omen, legacy of kain, loaded, legia, devils crush, alien crush, etc.etc......all those old games gone.... Thank god for psn store... we just need more games for it. Since then i have only traded in 2 games, untold legends and godfather 2, because they sucked and I knew i would never pick them up again. All others I save on my media rotator and shelves.. I love having the physcial cases w/art, and being able to pick up any game at any time I want. In fact I just started playing ninja gaiden sigma in preperation for the sequel. And on PC , I got have the 17 disc D and D game edtion..(it was only $40) and i can play planescape torment or baldur's gate when ever i want. It's nice to collect, seriously you will be missing out if you quit gaming if you can't resell.I understand what your saying and I don't resell or buy used on a regular basis. However, knowing if I buy a game and really dislike it I can sell and recoop some of my money gets me to take chances I would not take if I couldnt sell. I have a feeling if it does get to the point of digital downloads only, prices will not drop as they do now and I also feel like the starting prices will rise or initial content will be far less. I personally don't see this happening for a long time to come.
[QUOTE="garland51"]Not to be rude, but were you even *alive* during the videogame crash of 1983 ~ 1984? The crash of '83 and '84 happened because of how brick-n-mortar retailers work, the complete breakdown of quality controls on consoles, a low barrier to entry for non-gaming companies, and a lack of consumer information. Aka: 1. The publishers were all poor, and were replacing "old" product with rushed, low-quality "new" product as per their agreements with retailers. Precisely because they were issuing new games as "credit" for unsold old titles (something that can never happen in a digital marketplace - since no physical product needs to be moved) they were treading water, and often bankrupting. When these pubs went bankrupt, retailers were left with unsold, poor quality product, which they would bargain bin, uniquely taking dollars away from better games. - 2. Legal battles completely removed constraints on publication on the existing consoles, meaning *anyone* could shove out games. Without the modern licensing system in place, this meant you could see someone like Sears making a videogame - and you can only imagine how badly that turned out. - 3. Games were far less expensive to make. With modern games wielding complex (read - expensive) 3D graphics, it's much harder for a "nobody" to pump out a title. The modern licensing fees also make it difficult for studios to publish. These two, combined, result in a high barrier to entry for full games. While things like "indie games" and "XBLA" provide lower barriers, they are clearly divided from the "full price" marketplace, and have restrictions that prevent them from competing with "full" games. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo have clearly segmented their marketplace, so that even if they were to go fully digital, they control the price points, and prevent flooding. - 4. Consumers have more information than ever - reviews, blogs, videos, magazines, etc. In fact, the 360 marketplace just got a *rating system* - so that gamers can instantly see where a game stands in the community. I can't imagine Nintendo or Sony being too far behind with their own versions of this. STEAM already displays the metascore of every game in the digital catalog - publisher's can't escape the community feedback on their games. Unlike the 1980s marketplace, or even the *physical* marketplace of today (notice games don't have ratings on them at Target or GameStop), in the digital markeplace, every game must suffer it's public image. - - Reality - the digital marketplace is actually BETTER for preventing a crash than the physical one. Retailer's in the digital marketplace won't bargain-bin excess stock (since they have no physical stock ), meaning they don't flood the channel with cheap product (hurting the sales of new games). The digital marketplace removes used games, meaning the *billions* stolen from developers by GameStop every year will instead go back to the people who make games. Even if the price were to go *down*, the removal of the used games marketplace would *increase* profits. AND - the coup de grace here - the digital markeplace allows perfect channel control. Games are released exactly when intended, can be removed exactly as intended, and the price changes, sales, and promotions can happen precisely when they need to. Perfect channel control is what prevents a crash - you can adjust pricing, availability, bundles, and add-ons instantly. During the slow summer months, you can offer tons of games sales to move older titles - then instantly bring the prices back up for the Fall season, when you want people to buy your new games. You can offer "bundles" of popular titles to make money over the holidays, then remove those bundles in January to ensure you maximize your giftcard dollars. - Frankly, the attacks on digital distribution are simply prosophobia. An old generation of gamers who grew up with discs have become ludites, lashing out irrationally against a superior method of receiving games.No, I don't think so. But what would really kill the gaming industry is if all three companies were to go full DD next gen. That's right, you'll be looking at the repeat of the video game crash of '83 & '84 all over again.
subrosian
As usual, a very comprehensive and deep post on a heavily debated subject.
I do agree with many of your points, that DD can streamline the distribution process getting the games into the hands of gamers faster, and how it helps get the revenue where it belongs.
And I'm also a long time gamer who forms no attachment to plastic cases or feels the need to gaze upon my book shelf with longing affection. The game is the game which is what matters most. This particular defense of hard copy I feel is a weak one.
But even so, I wonder how you respond to the other arguments I heard against DD, which is what you pointed out. That control of the distribution will ensure the funds go to the developers. It's that control itself, which makes some feel the game will never truly belong to them. That the distributer holds titleship to it at all times. You can't lend a digital game or basically share it with a friend, which is a value I myself still hold true to.
And yes, what Gamestop has done with their used game practice has robbed the developers, but that's mainly because they push the sales of used games, doing all they can to prevent someone from bying new, as well as (from what I heard) allowing employess to borrow a game and then selling it used. But I gotta play devils advocate here, I think the used market should be defended. Yes, I have bought used before, not out of any spite for a developer, but simply because I like to save money. To me, $20 is a better price than $60, and now most new releases are priced at $70 here in Canada. I also think people have the right to sell something (anything) they no longer want to keep, to recoup just a portion of the money they spent on it in the first place.
Like i said, I like the idea of a more efficient and streamlined distribution process, especially if the elimination of packaging and retail shipping would bring the cost of games down. But I also wonder if we actually would see a drop in game costs, or if they would simply keep prices the same and use the loss in overhead to raise their own profits. Yeah, i usually am this cynical with most things ;P
Eventually maybe.
A possible reason being piracy. Every generation, it seems like it's easier to hack.
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