[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]It was groundbreaking game in personalized storytelling. Really? It didn't do anything particularly different from any previous cRPG ever made, including Bioware's own stuff. If it didn't anything particularly unique, it decided to toss out most RPG elements in favour of third person shooting with choose-your-own-path dialogue options.No other RPG did what ME trilogy did in terms on personalized storytelling. In fact, ME trilogy is the first time one can actually use that term. By the time you reach halfway through ME3 the way the story is personalized based on your own actions and choices through previous 2,5h blows away anything videogaming was able to achieve before in this area. And that's also the reason why people got so angry at the ending. Because ME trilogy made you feel like you're going through your own story. Hence the anger, because BioWare didn't botch the ending to their story, they botched ending to personal stories of gamers.[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"]I am so, so confident that in 10 years no one will be talking about the original trilogy. Mass Effect only refined characteristics of other RPGs and BioWare's own RPGs (specifically the dialogue system). It didn't do anything bold or groundbreaking for the genere, it just did things that were done other places. FrozenLiquid
Will The Mass Effect Trilogy Be Remembered?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Really? It didn't do anything particularly different from any previous cRPG ever made, including Bioware's own stuff. If it didn't anything particularly unique, it decided to toss out most RPG elements in favour of third person shooting with choose-your-own-path dialogue options.No other RPG did what ME trilogy did in terms on personalized storytelling. In fact, ME trilogy is the first time one can actually use that term. By the time you reach halfway through ME3 the way the story is personalized based on your own actions and choices through previous 2,5h blows away anything videogaming was able to achieve before in this area. And that's also the reason why people got so angry at the ending. Because ME trilogy made you feel like you're going through your own story. Hence the anger, because BioWare didn't botch the ending to their story, they botched ending to personal stories of gamers.Again... these are not new concepts. They just stretched it across a trilogy.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]It was groundbreaking game in personalized storytelling.
AdrianWerner
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]It was groundbreaking game in personalized storytelling.No. Mass Effect borrows elements from all kinds of games and tapes them together. Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Black and White 2... elements of all these games are found in Mass Effect. It's a collaboration not a revolution. Personalizing story based on previous savegames is revolution in videogame storytelling. It's nowhere near perfect, it's often almost breaks apart, but it's still revolutionary jump in advancing videogames as unique storytelling medium.[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"]I am so, so confident that in 10 years no one will be talking about the original trilogy. Mass Effect only refined characteristics of other RPGs and BioWare's own RPGs (specifically the dialogue system). It didn't do anything bold or groundbreaking for the genere, it just did things that were done other places. NAPK1NS
THis is the most important and innovative thing BioWare has ever done and the fact that ME1-3 aren't their best games doesn't change that.
Stretching them among trilogy is a new concept. More than anything singleplayer RPG have done in the last 20 years.And most of all, this is the first time this concept is actually realized. Signs of it happened in previous games, but they enver worked.Again... these are not new concepts. They just stretched it across a trilogy.
NAPK1NS
No. Mass Effect borrows elements from all kinds of games and tapes them together. Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Black and White 2... elements of all these games are found in Mass Effect. It's a collaboration not a revolution. Personalizing story based on previous savegames is revolution in videogame storytelling. It's nowhere near perfect, it's often almost breaks apart, but it's still revolutionary jump in advancing videogames as unique storytelling medium.[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]It was groundbreaking game in personalized storytelling.
AdrianWerner
THis is the most important and innovative thing BioWare has ever done and the fact that ME1-3 aren't their best games doesn't change that.
It was the most important thing they'd ever done ten years ago. With Neverwinter Nights. *Ahem* With feeling this time: It's not new. It's not a new feature, it's not new. It has been done in the past. It is not new.]It was the most important thing they'd ever done ten years ago. With Neverwinter Nights. *Ahem* With feeling this time: It's not new. It's not a new feature, it's not new. It has been done in the past. It is not new. NAPK1NS
Nope, it has never been done. Not this way. It was the first game where personalized storytelling actually happened and worked. And first game that utilized save game loading specifically for thi purpose, which was the thing that actually allowed it to work.
Your hate for the game is just blinding you. You name Neverwinter Nights..now that is a game that did absolutely nothing new.
I never played the game but i had bad impressions of it.....
The combat on ME3 looks dull like a third person shooter with out the choices of good weapons.
And then the story.... seeing how it was ending it seemed an awful like a lot of genetic endings i've seen before. "Everything has to end.. we gotta ended now pew pew pew destroy everything and start all over"
and then the game seems to be nothing but tons of questions...
I think overall one day it might make a good movie but it would be a game i wish not to see repeated.
It would make a terrible movie. THe best thing about ME trilogy is playing through it yourself and then seeing just how much changes your decisions in the last 5 years brought. Without it all you end up with is competent shooter with rich, but bland universe and cliched storyline.I think overall one day it might make a good movie but it would be a game i wish not to see repeated.
Joedgabe
To me, without loading up savegames ME3 is 7.5-8.0 game, with it it's 9.5 experience
[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"]]It was the most important thing they'd ever done ten years ago. With Neverwinter Nights. *Ahem* With feeling this time: It's not new. It's not a new feature, it's not new. It has been done in the past. It is not new. AdrianWerner
Nope, it has never been done. Not this way. It was the first game where personalized storytelling actually happened and worked. And first game that utilized save game loading specifically for thi purpose, which was the thing that actually allowed it to work.
Your hate for the game is just blinding you. You name Neverwinter Nights..now that is a game that did absolutely nothing new.
:lol: Did you stop to think your admiration is blinding YOU? Dude, shaaadd upp. I own the first two games on Xbox and PC, and consider ME2 to be one of the more meaningful single player experiences this generation. I'm just saying that these are not new concepts and the fact that they carry across three games probably isn't the revolution your framing it to be.
That would IMO depend on what will Bioware do in the future and how it will be perceived by the players...
IMO Mass Effect trilogy surely has enough qualities and differences from other games to become a clasic, but ... how many people would be willing to admit it, if the - not necessarily undeserved - hate for EA / Bioware would only grow? Case in point, the review bombing of ME3 on Metacritic / Amazon. As much as ME3 might have been dissappointing for some, the aggregate score around 4 / 10 really doesn't represent the overall quality of the game. And this reluctance to give it a credit even for the things it does actually pretty well is present nowadays almost everywhere.
So, if EA / Bioware will continue doing actions that would further alienate the vocal part of its fanbase and vocal players on the internet, for every poster pointing out how amazing games Mass Effects were, there will be someone saying that they represent the "fall of Bioware under EA and missed opportunity" and it will take a quite a time until the people will be able to look past all additional negative emotions related to the the company, publisher or change of philosophy inbetween the titles.
But, that moment should eventually come anyway. Nostalgia is too much of a force to be restrained by anger or disappointment forever.
OTOH, if Bioware could somehow improve their image in forseeable future it would help Mass Effects being recognized as clasics dramatically.
One of the best franchises in gaming. with one of the best told stories around. Well except for the last 10 mins. But the 90 hours before that are stellar
Two 9.0's and an 8.5? Yeah this franchise will be forgotten in a decade. Well perhaps people will still mention the horrible ending these games had and how great they could've been if executed correctly. Still good games, but not a classic like the legendary MGS4, FFVII, Zelda: OOT, SMB1/3, Half Life 1-2, Goldeneye etc.
Did you stop to think your admiration is blinding YOU?NAPK1NS
Nope. I think your hate is blinding you. I don't consider the trilogy to be amazing games, nor even best things BioWare has ever done. Those games are full of faults, but they did one thing extraordinarly well.
I'm just saying that these are not new concepts and the fact that they carry across three games probably isn't the revolution your framing it to be. NAPK1NSThey might not be new concepts, but it's the first time they became anything beyond concepts. Thus the revolution.
Honestly, using your logic, I could easily state that there have been no revolutionar games in the last two decades.
Stretching them among trilogy is a new concept. More than anything singleplayer RPG have done in the last 20 years.And most of all, this is the first time this concept is actually realized. Signs of it happened in previous games, but they enver worked.[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"]
Again... these are not new concepts. They just stretched it across a trilogy.
AdrianWerner
This, exactly.
Really? It didn't do anything particularly different from any previous cRPG ever made, including Bioware's own stuff. If it didn't anything particularly unique, it decided to toss out most RPG elements in favour of third person shooting with choose-your-own-path dialogue options.No other RPG did what ME trilogy did in terms on personalized storytelling. In fact, ME trilogy is the first time one can actually use that term. By the time you reach halfway through ME3 the way the story is personalized based on your own actions and choices through previous 2,5h blows away anything videogaming was able to achieve before in this area. And that's also the reason why people got so angry at the ending. Because ME trilogy made you feel like you're going through your own story. Hence the anger, because BioWare didn't botch the ending to their story, they botched ending to personal stories of gamers. Is that all? Because I have to agree with NAPK1Ns, it's something we've seen before, just not stretched across several games. Even then, the hundreds of choices we've apparently made wasn't entirely felt throughout the entire experience. I remember the fans asking 'What did our choices mean from ME1 into ME2', and they said 'You'll need to wait 'til ME3 to find out'. In effect, they shoehorned the 'hundreds of choices' into several hours worth of gameplay in ME3, which honestly isn't that groundbreaking. It could have been groundbreaking if the story was less restrained and major plot lines could take huge shifts between games.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]It was groundbreaking game in personalized storytelling.
AdrianWerner
Dafuq did I just read?with one of the best told stories around.
seanmcloughlin
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]No other RPG did what ME trilogy did in terms on personalized storytelling. In fact, ME trilogy is the first time one can actually use that term. By the time you reach halfway through ME3 the way the story is personalized based on your own actions and choices through previous 2,5h blows away anything videogaming was able to achieve before in this area. And that's also the reason why people got so angry at the ending. Because ME trilogy made you feel like you're going through your own story. Hence the anger, because BioWare didn't botch the ending to their story, they botched ending to personal stories of gamers. Is that all? Because I have to agree with NAPK1Ns, it's something we've seen before, just not stretched across several games. Even then, the hundreds of choices we've apparently made wasn't entirely felt throughout the entire experience. I remember the fans asking 'What did our choices mean from ME1 into ME2', and they said 'You'll need to wait 'til ME3 to find out'. In effect, they shoehorned the 'hundreds of choices' into several hours worth of gameplay in ME3, which honestly isn't that groundbreaking. It could have been groundbreaking if the story was less restrained and major plot lines could take huge shifts between games.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"] Really? It didn't do anything particularly different from any previous cRPG ever made, including Bioware's own stuff. If it didn't anything particularly unique, it decided to toss out most RPG elements in favour of third person shooting with choose-your-own-path dialogue options.FrozenLiquid
They were doing a great job of the choices the whole way throughout the games but coming towards the end they felt like they didn't matter. Like you said. No matter what I had done, I still got an ending almost indetical to everyone else who played the game and most cases I did get the exact same ending. Frame for frame.
Other than that the choices mattered hugely. I didn't even have wrex or Kaiden in ME2 but some people had them all the way to ME3. It wa simpressive to see the differences.
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"][QUOTE="NAPK1NS"]]It was the most important thing they'd ever done ten years ago. With Neverwinter Nights. *Ahem* With feeling this time: It's not new. It's not a new feature, it's not new. It has been done in the past. It is not new. NAPK1NS
Nope, it has never been done. Not this way. It was the first game where personalized storytelling actually happened and worked. And first game that utilized save game loading specifically for thi purpose, which was the thing that actually allowed it to work.
Your hate for the game is just blinding you. You name Neverwinter Nights..now that is a game that did absolutely nothing new.
:lol: Did you stop to think your admiration is blinding YOU? Dude, shaaadd upp. I own the first two games on Xbox and PC, and consider ME2 to be one of the more meaningful single player experiences this generation. I'm just saying that these are not new concepts and the fact that they carry across three games probably isn't the revolution your framing it to be. Whoa crap same here! Mass Effect 2 is incredibly boss. Doesn't necessarily mean the trilogy is anything particularly remarkable.Is that all?FrozenLiquid
Well, it's the biggest advancement videogames made as storytelling medium since early 80s. Pretty big deal to me.
, it's something we've seen before, just not stretched across several games. FrozenLiquidNope. It's something we have never seen done before. Some games have tried to do it, but they always failed specacularly at it. ME trilogy was the first time this thing actually worked. And dismissing savegames is plain silly, because that's the major reason why it worked there, while it failed everytime somebody attempted it before.
[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]Dafuq did I just read?with one of the best told stories around.
FrozenLiquid
The story is great. Whether you personally liked it or not.
A lot of effort went into creating the universe of these games to make it all believable. Sure the ending fvcked up a lot of it but before that the story was great.
Why don't you think so?
I pine for the days of KOTOR, Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights.savebatteryWell..Neverinwter, KOTOR and Jade EMpire are what made me loose faith in BioWare, so I guess de gustibus... :)
Is that all? Because I have to agree with NAPK1Ns, it's something we've seen before, just not stretched across several games. Even then, the hundreds of choices we've apparently made wasn't entirely felt throughout the entire experience. I remember the fans asking 'What did our choices mean from ME1 into ME2', and they said 'You'll need to wait 'til ME3 to find out'. In effect, they shoehorned the 'hundreds of choices' into several hours worth of gameplay in ME3, which honestly isn't that groundbreaking. It could have been groundbreaking if the story was less restrained and major plot lines could take huge shifts between games.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]No other RPG did what ME trilogy did in terms on personalized storytelling. In fact, ME trilogy is the first time one can actually use that term. By the time you reach halfway through ME3 the way the story is personalized based on your own actions and choices through previous 2,5h blows away anything videogaming was able to achieve before in this area. And that's also the reason why people got so angry at the ending. Because ME trilogy made you feel like you're going through your own story. Hence the anger, because BioWare didn't botch the ending to their story, they botched ending to personal stories of gamers.
seanmcloughlin
They were doing a great job of the choices the whole way throughout the games but coming towards the end they felt like they didn't matter. Like you said. No matter what I had done, I still got an ending almost indetical to everyone else who played the game and most cases I did get the exact same ending. Frame for frame.
Other than that the choices mattered hugely. I didn't even have wrex or Kaiden in ME2 but some people had them all the way to ME3. It wa simpressive to see the differences.
See, I didn't find losing or retaining characters very significant. That's the thing: Bioware made them interchangeable, and insignificant to the overall scheme of things. I remember I lost Ashley on my first ME1 playthrough. I didn't import my save to ME2, but when Kaiden was dead and Ashley was alive in what I suppose is the 'canonical' story, it's as if my choice in the first didn't really matter. It was smoke and mirrors. It's mostly what Mass Effect choices really are: smoke and mirrors. It's a far cry from the Witcher's choice-and-consequence system, or any of Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian's stuff. Now if the latter guys planned a trilogy with their amazing choice system, you can bet it'll be something worth drooling over.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Is that all?AdrianWerner
Well, it's the biggest advancement videogames made as storytelling medium since early 80s. Pretty big deal to me.
, it's something we've seen before, just not stretched across several games. FrozenLiquidNope. It's something we have never seen done before. Some games have tried to do it, but they always failed specacularly at it. ME trilogy was the first time this thing actually worked. And dismissing savegames is plain silly, because that's the major reason why it worked there, while it failed everytime somebody attempted it before. So explain to me, What is different in terms of fundamental game design, that makes Bioware's multi-game consequence system different from single game consequences that constitutes something revolutionary?
[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"] Is that all? Because I have to agree with NAPK1Ns, it's something we've seen before, just not stretched across several games. Even then, the hundreds of choices we've apparently made wasn't entirely felt throughout the entire experience. I remember the fans asking 'What did our choices mean from ME1 into ME2', and they said 'You'll need to wait 'til ME3 to find out'. In effect, they shoehorned the 'hundreds of choices' into several hours worth of gameplay in ME3, which honestly isn't that groundbreaking. It could have been groundbreaking if the story was less restrained and major plot lines could take huge shifts between games. FrozenLiquid
They were doing a great job of the choices the whole way throughout the games but coming towards the end they felt like they didn't matter. Like you said. No matter what I had done, I still got an ending almost indetical to everyone else who played the game and most cases I did get the exact same ending. Frame for frame.
Other than that the choices mattered hugely. I didn't even have wrex or Kaiden in ME2 but some people had them all the way to ME3. It wa simpressive to see the differences.
See, I didn't find losing or retaining characters very significant. That's the thing: Bioware made them interchangeable, and insignificant to the overall scheme of things. I remember I lost Ashley on my first ME1 playthrough. I didn't import my save to ME2, but when Kaiden was dead and Ashley was alive in what I suppose is the 'canonical' story, it's as if my choice in the first didn't really matter. It was smoke and mirrors. It's mostly what Mass Effect choices really are: smoke and mirrors. It's a far cry from the Witcher's choice-and-consequence system, or any of Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian's stuff. Now if the latter guys planned a trilogy with their amazing choice system, you can bet it'll be something worth drooling over.But I lost Kaiden and in ME3 Shepard said he missed him and regretted letting him die. That makes him matter to the main character.
Same when he met some of the Krogans he said he knew wrex and he was a good soldier. If the characters didn't matter at all then you wouldn't have had these interactions. They would have been forgotten. Also they change what loyalty missions you do and what side stories you see. If Ashley dies you don't get to see her console her sister or become a spectre. How does that NOT change the story? or the game?
after 3's ending fiasco yup.
Dafuq did I just read?[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]
with one of the best told stories around.
seanmcloughlin
The story is great. Whether you personally liked it or not.
A lot of effort went into creating the universe of these games to make it all believable. Sure the ending fvcked up a lot of it but before that the story was great.
Why don't you think so?
I personally enjoyed playing through Mass Effect 2, and enjoyed what I saw of Mass Effect 3.But the stories aren't great. It's absolutely retarded.
Let's use the first game as an example:
You've once again got to travel the galaxy to defeat a bad super soldier with a hidden agenda, like any old sc-fi adventure (quite like the Jedi/Sith, actually). Your trip to Noveria sees you in contact with super secret research about the Rachni species, essentially ripped straight out of the Alien universe. Then you travel to Feros to deal with the Thorian, who's probably homies with the alien from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You then travel to Virmire, where you realize that your generic bad super soldier is actually controlled by a generic super ancient race of aliens which you generically cannot comprehend. Then you're tasked with finding the Big Red Button, and pressing it, you find a massive plot conveniently placing the bad guys in front of a big galactic hotspot.
See, if Mass Effect was originally a movie or a novel, it would have been crushed under its own rote clichés.
Mass Effect 2 was a little more enjoyable because it felt comfortable in its own skin rather than acting like a pretentious wannabe. It was precisely due to its relative lack of plot that it was arguably the best one.
Mass Effect 3 is a lot like Mass Effect 1 in that the type of story is what we've seen before: save the galaxy, particularly Earth. It's your typical invasion story with your Mass Effect characters in it. You need to be able to turn the entire subgenre on its head for the story to be worthwhile, but the writers just couldn't cut it.
Now, if you've been exposed to a wealth of stories, it's not hard to see Mass Effect didn't have a very good story. The joy was in the way it was presented to you, and your level of participation in it. If it weren't for that, it'd be a stupidly bland experience.
So explain to me, What is different in terms of fundamental game design, that makes Bioware's multi-game consequence system different from single game consequences that constitutes something revolutionary?FrozenLiquidGame design? None. Storytelling? All the difference in the world.
No game is long enough to actually allow you to create true connection with characters. Importingt save games allowed them to create thousand little variations in ME3 that bassicaly made it my own story, instead of BioWare's. The depth and variety of consequences are what made it work. In Witcher 2 you had few big choices, but they didn't create your own story. Instead you've went through couple variants of CDProjekt's script. With Mass Effect trilogy they took thousand variables to change ME3. Those aren't huge things in msot cases, but there's insane ammount of it. Every step you take you're reminded of everything you did in previous games. Non-essentioal characters apear and reapear in your game and remember you, the memorial on your ship tells names of all the people you personaly watch die. What makes it work is that it happens regularly. Which is far cry from having few big choices spread among long non-personalized content.
In the end what it achieved was that I felt actual personal connections to Normandy;'s crew. First time I've ever felt this in videogame. Of course, I did play games with specacular characters before, often ones far better defined and better written than anyone in ME, but I always admired them and cared about them as characters. With Mass Effect 3 I cared about them as persons. In Witcher those are all Geralt's friends, in Mass Effect 3 those were my own friends. The connection was personal and thus a lot stronger.
To me that's a revolution and a huge acomplihsment, not only because it did what no other game did for me before, but also because it's something only games can do. No other medium can ever achieve that.
Of course, while it achieved that, it's far cry from perfect. I'm hoping other games will take that concept and improve on it, ultimately giving us personalized stories that can stand up to the best of what other mediums can offer. ME trilogy will be surpassed and outclassed, but I will always remember where it started.
....I don't know how to answer this. Can you give me an example of where the plot drastically changes, altering the actual timeline? Because what you've given doesn't change the story. They're merely passing comments with no real substance.But I lost Kaiden and in ME3 Shepard said he missed him and regretted letting him die. That makes him matter to the main character.
Same when he met some of the Krogans he said he knew wrex and he was a good soldier. If the characters didn't matter at all then you wouldn't have had these interactions. They would have been forgotten. Also they change what loyalty missions you do and what side stories you see. If Ashley dies you don't get to see her console her sister or become a spectre. How does that NOT change the story? or the game?
seanmcloughlin
I don't know how to answer this. Can you give me an example of where the plot drastically changes, altering the actual timeline? Because what you've given doesn't change the story. They're merely passing comments with no real substance.FrozenLiquidStory is more than a collection of one line bulletpoints composing synopis. Existence of a major character or lack or him is a large part of the story. Also, im ME3 there are also decisions that completely reshape the way the galaxy is.
Game design? None. Bingo. The revolution occurs when the game design has to compensate for the effect the player has on the game world. I didn't delete the rest of your comment because I didn't read it, but because I feel it's barking up the wrong tree, and it's just a little creepy. Yes, it's quite the accomplishment, but in all honesty, the application of it – precisely because it never delves into the alteration of game design – makes it feel like a gimmick at best. It was mind-blowing when Psycho Mantis read your saves files in Metal Gear Solid 1, but it was a gimmick then, and it's still a gimmick now. I do hope that a developer will take it beyond the scope of storytelling (which is really just window dressing) and makes significant alterations to the gameplay to compensate for your investment in a series of interlocking games. It's crazy, it's ambitious, and it's going to take a developer with balls to make it, but that's when we will never look at sequels the same way again. Until then, it's business as usual.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]So explain to me, What is different in terms of fundamental game design, that makes Bioware's multi-game consequence system different from single game consequences that constitutes something revolutionary?AdrianWerner
Story is more than a collection of one line bulletpoints composing synopis. Existence of a major character or lack or him is a large part of the story. Also, im ME3 there are also decisions that completely reshape the way the galaxy is. That's the thing: Kaiden and Wrex aren't major characters. Kaiden is a character swap for Ashley (they almost have the same damn reason for existence in all three games), and though I haven't played with Wrex alive in my ME2 playthrough, I'm willing to bet he replaces his brother as the person on Tuchanka, and doesn't join your crew because it would mess up the game design of Grunt. If I am right about Wrex, give me a f*cking star, because I don't even like games as much as you guys and I know more about how they work than you do :lol:[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]I don't know how to answer this. Can you give me an example of where the plot drastically changes, altering the actual timeline? Because what you've given doesn't change the story. They're merely passing comments with no real substance.AdrianWerner
[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]
[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"] Dafuq did I just read?FrozenLiquid
The story is great. Whether you personally liked it or not.
A lot of effort went into creating the universe of these games to make it all believable. Sure the ending fvcked up a lot of it but before that the story was great.
Why don't you think so?
I personally enjoyed playing through Mass Effect 2, and enjoyed what I saw of Mass Effect 3.But the stories aren't great. It's absolutely retarded.
Let's use the first game as an example:
You've once again got to travel the galaxy to defeat a bad super soldier with a hidden agenda, like any old sc-fi adventure (quite like the Jedi/Sith, actually). Your trip to Noveria sees you in contact with super secret research about the Rachni species, essentially ripped straight out of the Alien universe. Then you travel to Feros to deal with the Thorian, who's probably homies with the alien from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You then travel to Virmire, where you realize that your generic bad super soldier is actually controlled by a generic super ancient race of aliens which you generically cannot comprehend. Then you're tasked with finding the Big Red Button, and pressing it, you find a massive plot conveniently placing the bad guys in front of a big galactic hotspot.
See, if Mass Effect was originally a movie or a novel, it would have been crushed under its own rote clichés.
Mass Effect 2 was a little more enjoyable because it felt comfortable in its own skin rather than acting like a pretentious wannabe. It was precisely due to its relative lack of plot that it was arguably the best one.
Mass Effect 3 is a lot like Mass Effect 1 in that the type of story is what we've seen before: save the galaxy, particularly Earth. It's your typical invasion story with your Mass Effect characters in it. You need to be able to turn the entire subgenre on its head for the story to be worthwhile, but the writers just couldn't cut it.
Now, if you've been exposed to a wealth of stories, it's not hard to see Mass Effect didn't have a very good story. The joy was in the way it was presented to you, and your level of participation in it. If it weren't for that, it'd be a stupidly bland experience.
well duh if you put it into the context of movies and novels it's as cliched as they come but that's the point. It's never been done so well in games across a trilogy before.
By your logic Uncharted doesn't have a great story either because Indiana jones did it all first. But it still gtes praise as one of the best story driven franchises around. Same with Alan Wake, praised for it's great story but it's ripped straight from novels etc.
It's when you take the debate out of the context of videogames you get what you just said. Keeping it strictly to videogames it's fair game.
You can't keep a game to the same rules. Everything from every game is copied one way or another then.
By your logic Uncharted doesn't have a great story eitherseanmcloughlin
And you'd be right. Uncharted really doesn't have a fantastic story.
But lookie here: if you search my reviews, you'd see Uncharted 2, 3 and Mass Effect 2 are some of the highest scoring games on my contributions page.
Video game stories suck, pure and simple (well, some adventure games have decent stories). We don't play games for stories though, we play games to experience stories, irrelevant of their actual quality. That's why the Mass Effect games are so cherished.
The revolution occurs when the game design has to compensate for the effect the player has on the game world.FrozenLiquidSays who? All I'm saying is that I consiider Mass Effect to be a revolution in videogame storytelling. Nothing more. You seem to want to drag me into discussion about it's gameplay design, so you can bash it and then go "AHA! I told you so". But I'm not interested in that. All I'm talking about is videogame storytelling. The way ME did it is remarkable to me and that's why I think the trilogy will be remembered for a very long time.
[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]....I don't know how to answer this. Can you give me an example of where the plot drastically changes, altering the actual timeline? Because what you've given doesn't change the story. They're merely passing comments with no real substance.But I lost Kaiden and in ME3 Shepard said he missed him and regretted letting him die. That makes him matter to the main character.
Same when he met some of the Krogans he said he knew wrex and he was a good soldier. If the characters didn't matter at all then you wouldn't have had these interactions. They would have been forgotten. Also they change what loyalty missions you do and what side stories you see. If Ashley dies you don't get to see her console her sister or become a spectre. How does that NOT change the story? or the game?
FrozenLiquid
What you're looking for is some huge massive change in absolutely everything. Doesn't change the fact that the characters do change aspects of what happens. It doesn't change the huge overall arc of the storyline sure but that has been set in stone anyway because there is only ever going to be one outcome. Everyone dies or everyone lives. It's not some territorial war of nations. It's a galactic war determining extinction so you were never ever going to be able to change the timeline so drastically.
What you can change is the interactions and the planets you visit with your band of heroes whoever is left. It changed my character a lot in the game and his persoanl journey because I slept with ashley in ME1 but ended up falling in love with Tali in the end. these do make a difference. Just cos you don't want to admit they do.
And speak for youself. I played the ME games for the story. Played the Final Fantasy games for the story. Played the witcher 2 for the story. Might not have started out that way but it's why I kept playing
[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]
By your logic Uncharted doesn't have a great story eitherFrozenLiquid
And you'd be right. Uncharted really doesn't have a fantastic story.
But lookie here: if you search my reviews, you'd see Uncharted 2, 3 and Mass Effect 2 are some of the highest scoring games on my contributions page.
Video game stories suck, pure and simple (well, some adventure games have decent stories). We don't play games for stories though, we play games to experience stories, irrelevant of their actual quality. That's why the Mass Effect games are so cherished.
Again you're adhering them to movie and novel rules of story telling. It's not the same thing. A story in a movie or book is always going to be the exact same for everyone no matter when they read it or who reads it. A game like Mass Effect is interactive and changes things depending on choices you yourself make. You have free reign over what side missions you do or don't do. It's every hard to fit a very well structured story into something like that and Bioware did incredibly well.
Once you start saying games should follow the same story rules as books or movies then it all falls apart. Hell movies don't even have good stories compared to books but on their own they can have. Same with games.
That's the thing: Kaiden and Wrex aren't major characters.FrozenLiquidThe thing is: they can be. If you take them into missions and in case of some (not Wrex though) romance them. A character who's the main sidekick of your character and/or his love interest is a major character in any form of fiction.
Again you're adhering them to movie and novel rules of story telling. It's not the same thing. A story in a movie or book is always going to be the exact same for everyone no matter when they read it or who reads it. A game like Mass Effect is interactive and changes things depending on choices you yourself make. You have free reign over what side missions you do or don't do. It's every hard to fit a very well structured story into something like that and Bioware did incredibly well.
Once you start saying games should follow the same story rules as books or movies then it all falls apart. Hell movies don't even have good stories compared to books but on their own they can have. Same with games.
seanmcloughlin
We are not talking about storytelling here, we are talking about story.
As AdrianWerner mentioned, stories cannot be brought down to mere bullet points or synopses. Stories exist outside written or spoken form. We extract from stories plots, narration, visualization, etc. Stories are not bound by any medium, they transcend and exist for all mediums.
When you understand that, you'll realize that all mediums are equally accountable for the quality of their stories. No one medium really gets a special pass. The problem most people have not realized in the gaming community, is that video games aren't inherently designed to tell stories. When video games try to tell stories when they naturally do not expose themselves to telling stories, they just not as good as the other mediums which exist to solely tell a story.
So no, the idea that 'you're still adhereing to this definition of storytelling' is both missing the point, and totally incorrect about what stories are.
P.S, Movies have equally good stories compared to books. If you analyze them properly, you'll find movies and books actually tell different stories.
here's the obligatory promoting university literature courses. They're fun and everyone should do them even if they don't end up getting a Bachelor of Arts!
Says who? All I'm saying is that I consiider Mass Effect to be a revolution in videogame storytelling. Nothing more. You seem to want to drag me into discussion about it's gameplay design, so you can bash it and then go "AHA! I told you so". But I'm not interested in that. All I'm talking about is videogame storytelling. The way ME did it is remarkable to me and that's why I think the trilogy will be remembered for a very long time. I don't want to drag it, but it naturally forces me to. It's not a revolution in any shape or form, and I provided an example of when a revolution will occur. I'm not sure if it has occurred to you but a revolution in game design directly affects a revolution in storytelling. As of now, there's no revolution.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]The revolution occurs when the game design has to compensate for the effect the player has on the game world.AdrianWerner
The thing is: they can be. If you take them into missions and in case of some (not Wrex though) romance them. A character who's the main sidekick of your character and/or his love interest is a major character in any form of fiction. No, they aren't. Bioware made them disposable in that way. And whatever that thing is that you do with them, it's not romance. Romance in a video game? Perhaps when RPGs take into account when and where you've taken your characters to, how much stress you put them under, how much you interact with them etc, that's a romance. Again, that's the game design revolution, which directly correlates to a storytelling revolution. Clicking the 'Yes, please f*ck me' dialog options to get to the sex scene does not constitute romance, and does not make those support characters exceptional. I just checked the Wrex thing in ME2. And yeah, I think I'm gonna get myself a star.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]That's the thing: Kaiden and Wrex aren't major characters.AdrianWerner
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]Says who? All I'm saying is that I consiider Mass Effect to be a revolution in videogame storytelling. Nothing more. You seem to want to drag me into discussion about it's gameplay design, so you can bash it and then go "AHA! I told you so". But I'm not interested in that. All I'm talking about is videogame storytelling. The way ME did it is remarkable to me and that's why I think the trilogy will be remembered for a very long time. I don't want to drag it, but it naturally forces me to. It's not a revolution in any shape or form, and I provided an example of when a revolution will occur. I'm not sure if it has occurred to you but a revolution in game design directly affects a revolution in storytelling. As of now, there's no revolution. Not a revolution as far as the breakdown of the story itself, the fact that they brought that formula to a trilogy setting, you said it yourself a few pages ago, hasn't been done before. Something that hasn't been done before, even if adhering to old rules, is circumstantially revolutionary by default.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]The revolution occurs when the game design has to compensate for the effect the player has on the game world.FrozenLiquid
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]The thing is: they can be. If you take them into missions and in case of some (not Wrex though) romance them. A character who's the main sidekick of your character and/or his love interest is a major character in any form of fiction. No, they aren't. Bioware made them disposable in that way. And whatever that thing is that you do with them, it's not romance. Romance in a video game? Perhaps when RPGs take into account when and where you've taken your characters to, how much stress you put them under, how much you interact with them etc, that's a romance. Again, that's the game design revolution, which directly correlates to a storytelling revolution. Clicking the 'Yes, please f*ck me' dialog options to get to the sex scene does not constitute romance, and does not make those support characters exceptional. I just checked the Wrex thing in ME2. And yeah, I think I'm gonna get myself a star.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]That's the thing: Kaiden and Wrex aren't major characters.FrozenLiquid
The "Yes, please f*ck me' dialog option"? You obviously didn't romance Ashley through the trilogy. Not everyone is Diane Allers. You doubt there can be romance in a video game? C'mon Liquid, you're really losing cred here....
The thing is: they can be. If you take them into missions and in case of some (not Wrex though) romance them. A character who's the main sidekick of your character and/or his love interest is a major character in any form of fiction. This. Saying Wrex isn't a main character to Mass Effect is comparable to saying the Arbiter isn't a major character in Halo or Alyx Vance isn't a main character in Half-Life.[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]That's the thing: Kaiden and Wrex aren't major characters.AdrianWerner
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