yea, its happening. DirectX12 on XB1 -Fable Legends/DX12-

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GrenadeLauncher

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#51 GrenadeLauncher
Member since 2004 • 6843 Posts

@FoxbatAlpha said:

Cows still scared shitless from DX12. I love how everyone loves to misquote Phil about it too. He was referring to the difficulty to work with the new software meaning it wouldn't be a big change. NOT the end result.

Keep crying though.

Yeah, like how PS4 isn't 50% more powerful. Keep doing damage control, Justin.

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tymeservesfate

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#52 tymeservesfate
Member since 2003 • 2230 Posts

@Chutebox said:

No worries there bud, we don't.

Your whole post reads "I hope this happens!" torm is actually posting links backing up his argument and how this whole thing you posted was based off a video from a GPU well beyond what's in the X1.

that's fine, you don't appreciate my opinion, do you. since Tormentos old ass links impressed you so much try looking at this one:

http://gamingbolt.com/the-division-technical-director-directx-12-will-improve-performance-visuals-of-xbox-onepc-games

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more.”

a big name developer in Ubisoft just 2 days ago spoke on how the coming implication of DX12 to the XBOX ONE and pc is giving their project a very good boost in performance and quality. so why the **** are you riding a link made months ago about a tweet Phil Spencer made on a whim lol smh. Ubisoft/devs saying it directly isnt enough for you either, huh?

seems like you cows are the ones ignoring the facts here not me and others. you can cherry pick all the links you want...but the storm is coming, lol.

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Chutebox

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#53 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51609 Posts

@tymeservesfate: I'm not riding shit. This whole thread was based off a video that is ran on a pc.

You can believe anything you want. You were probably one of the ones hyping the cloud too. Lot of good it has done

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04dcarraher

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#54 04dcarraher
Member since 2004 • 23858 Posts

@clyde46 said:

So Mantle is not a thing anymore?

Ive been saying since DX12 was announced, Mantle will fade away once DX12 comes out all the enhancements Mantle uses DX12 does as well. Developers will not have a real reason to use Mantle over DX 12 or use both unless AMD pays and promotes.

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tymeservesfate

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#55 tymeservesfate
Member since 2003 • 2230 Posts

@Chutebox said:

@tymeservesfate: I'm not riding shit. This whole thread was based off a video that is ran on a pc.

You can believe anything you want. You were probably one of the ones hyping the cloud too. Lot of good it has done

no, i was hyping 4x MSAA...how'd that turn out?

and my opening post has two links in it and a video. in the video he mentions Ubisoft speaking up for DX12 on the XB1...so yes, this thread is about that too. it's not my fault you and Tormentos overlooked it and started talking out ur ass....its all in there in the OP to digest and then comment. you decided to follow the fool and go off old misleading links instead...own it. MS is doing something with DX12, count on it.

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Chutebox

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#56  Edited By Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51609 Posts

Woosh

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Daious

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#57  Edited By Daious
Member since 2013 • 2315 Posts

AMD first set of fully compat dx12 GPU are coming out this year probably. It was suppose to be the 20nm r9 300 series but since it got delayed I am not sure the r9 300 series 28nm will be fully compat.

Anything before that will have compat but not all the features. This includes current gen consoles.

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#58 Daious
Member since 2013 • 2315 Posts

@ttboy said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

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04dcarraher

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#59 04dcarraher
Member since 2004 • 23858 Posts

@daious said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

Dont bring the real facts into SW are you crazy?!

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#61 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60833 Posts

@lostrib said:

Didn't some Dev already say that DX12 won't do much for X1

YUUOPPPPPPP

Rack 'em lems.

NEXT

DX12(lol)

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Tighaman

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#63 Tighaman
Member since 2006 • 1038 Posts

@tormentos: crappy racer lol that gonna be AAA and its not one game on the ps4 that's 4xmsaa and 1080p ufc was cross gen show me a exclusive from the first party every game have be stale for the ps4 They have shown the demo before even before the maxwell intro showing the GI solution partnership between Lionhead and Epic so what are you saying? Ms just killed your power excuse in one game

GI

High quality AA

1080p locked 30fps

Open world

Real time reflections and shadows

Forward+ rendering first console game to do it

I could go on on and on and that's one game when you try to put 5 games into the discussion

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#64  Edited By Daious
Member since 2013 • 2315 Posts

@magicalclick said:

@daious:

Existing DX11.1 graphics cards are 100% compatible with DX12. You should check the facts before you make a guess. Don't believe me? Just watch official Microsoft DX12 announcement.

Make a guess? Majority of it is compat but not all of it. AMD/NVIDIA has already talked about it... You don't have to be so rude about it.

"Last week both AMD and NVIDIA were making the media rounds with the welcome news that Microsoft’s latest DirectX would be supported by current generation graphics cards. AMD has stated anything with their GCN architecture has native support for DX12 and any series released after NVIDIA’s Fermi architecture will have support the API as well. Today thoughwe learned these graphics cards will have only limited support for the API, with key elements missing."

There is a difference between supporting it and fully supporting it. Full support with AMD chips will come with R9 300 series.

current generation graphics cards will not be able to use the new blend modes and conservative rasterization features. In order to use these features you will have to upgrade to AMD’s Radeon Rx 300 series, or NVIDIA’s second generation Maxwell architecture.

Granted its only a few features that you need a newer card for, it still isn't fully supported.

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KungfuKitten

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#65 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

That bar is bigger than that bar :o

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LJS9502_basic

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#66 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180226 Posts

@tymeservesfate said:

@Chutebox said:

No worries there bud, we don't.

Your whole post reads "I hope this happens!" torm is actually posting links backing up his argument and how this whole thing you posted was based off a video from a GPU well beyond what's in the X1.

that's fine, you don't appreciate my opinion, do you. since Tormentos old ass links impressed you so much try looking at this one:

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more.”

a big name developer in Ubisoft just 2 days ago spoke on how the coming implication of DX12 to the XBOX ONE and pc is giving their project a very good boost in performance and quality. so why the **** are you riding a link made months ago about a tweet Phil Spencer made on a whim lol smh. Ubisoft/devs saying it directly isnt enough for you either, huh?

seems like you cows are the ones ignoring the facts here not me and others. you can cherry pick all the links you want...but the storm is coming, lol.

Okay I don't pour over PC hardware with much regularity but I doubt the X1 is going to come close to current PCs since they have the newer tech.

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#67 slim70
Member since 2005 • 768 Posts

@ttboy said:
Loading Video...

DX12 in action...with said game.

HOLY SHITBALLS BATMAN!

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Daious

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#68 Daious
Member since 2013 • 2315 Posts
@04dcarraher said:

@daious said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

Dont bring the real facts into SW are you crazy?!

drives me insane when people talking about DX12 on consoles when the main focus of it is on PC. Consoles already have a low level API. The "coding to the metal" phrase that everyone been using when talking about mantle and DX12 refers to PC.

I think I might just avoid system war topics on DX12 and focus on pc and hardware forums and overclock.net forums

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Floppy_Jim

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#69  Edited By Floppy_Jim
Member since 2007 • 25933 Posts

Well, where are the 1080p 60 FPS Sony games? This is an ingenious MS strategy, to let everyone think they're beaten and strike back with NDA DirectX12 + SDKs. There's no way they're giving up a 30% power advantage to Sony.

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deactivated-62825bb2ccdb4

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#70 deactivated-62825bb2ccdb4
Member since 2003 • 666 Posts

@daious said:

@ttboy said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

Do you have a link for that assertion? Console games are bottlenecked by the CPU. We will find out in less than a year. Brad Wardell was already asked about the same thing that you mentioned. You can google his response.

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#71  Edited By deactivated-62825bb2ccdb4
Member since 2003 • 666 Posts

@Heil68 said:

@lostrib said:

Didn't some Dev already say that DX12 won't do much for X1

YUUOPPPPPPP

Rack 'em lems.

NEXT

DX12(lol)

Link?

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FoxbatAlpha

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#72 FoxbatAlpha
Member since 2009 • 10669 Posts

@tormentos: God Damn your stupidity is off the charts.

I say that people are misinterpretating Phil's quote. What do you do? Quote him again.

Do you have the capability to think for a second before you spew out your bullshit?

I'm love when DX12 takes a shit on your day.

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#73  Edited By Daious
Member since 2013 • 2315 Posts

@ttboy said:

@daious said:

@ttboy said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

Do you have a link for that assertion? Console games are bottlenecked by the CPU. We will find out in less than a year. Brad Wardell was already asked about the same thing that you mentioned. You can google his response.

I would guess the biggest bottleneck of the xboxone is the GPU not the CPU. People don't understand the existing API that consoles have. Its the reason why a console with the exact same specs of a PC will outperform the PC.

The best thing about DX12 on consoles is that more PC games will be ported to consoles and the easy of developing a game for both xboxone and PC. Xboxone will get more games out of this.

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#74 ChiefFreeman
Member since 2005 • 5667 Posts
@freedomfreak said:

And parity has been achieved.

we haven't even seen what the PS4 or Xbox One are truly capable of, yet.

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#75  Edited By tormentos
Member since 2003 • 33795 Posts

@tymeservesfate said:

@Chutebox said:

No worries there bud, we don't.

Your whole post reads "I hope this happens!" torm is actually posting links backing up his argument and how this whole thing you posted was based off a video from a GPU well beyond what's in the X1.

that's fine, you don't appreciate my opinion, do you. since Tormentos old ass links impressed you so much try looking at this one:

http://gamingbolt.com/the-division-technical-director-directx-12-will-improve-performance-visuals-of-xbox-onepc-games

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more.”

a big name developer in Ubisoft just 2 days ago spoke on how the coming implication of DX12 to the XBOX ONE and pc is giving their project a very good boost in performance and quality. so why the **** are you riding a link made months ago about a tweet Phil Spencer made on a whim lol smh. Ubisoft/devs saying it directly isnt enough for you either, huh?

seems like you cows are the ones ignoring the facts here not me and others. you can cherry pick all the links you want...but the storm is coming, lol.

DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more.”Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/the-division-technical-director-directx-12-will-improve-performance-visuals-of-xbox-onepc-games#jojlsoEeErqGoLTP.99

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..............

Is talking about bringing PC and consoles closer in this case XBO and PC that refer to the xbox one API which is ported to PC.

Second bold part confirms it and juts so you have no leg to stand in..

Tom Clancy’s The Division is due for the PlayStation 4, Xbox One and PC sometime in 2015. Given that DirectX 12 releases in late 2015, it will be interesting to see if the developers will use the API in the Xbox One and PC version of The Division.

That is funny because Metro Redux developer already confirmed that the xbox one has a API like libGNM which is a API that allow talking closer to the metal..lol

To the metal coding is something that has been on consoles for generations and not on PC,which is what DX12 brings late i may add.

Because Phill Spencer know about its hardware and software after all he works with MS,not only that the link i quoted from MS are irrefutable and every one knows that Lower CPU over head and to the metal push is something of consoles not PC and it was even on xbox 360 stated by MS which you refuse like a blind fanboy to see.

@Tighaman said:

@tormentos: crappy racer lol that gonna be AAA and its not one game on the ps4 that's 4xmsaa and 1080p ufc was cross gen show me a exclusive from the first party every game have be stale for the ps4 They have shown the demo before even before the maxwell intro showing the GI solution partnership between Lionhead and Epic so what are you saying? Ms just killed your power excuse in one game

GI

High quality AA

1080p locked 30fps

Open world

Real time reflections and shadows

Forward+ rendering first console game to do it

I could go on on and on and that's one game when you try to put 5 games into the discussion

Oh it can be a perfect 10 game,my argument wasn't about gameplay or the game as a whole but about its graphics nice spin.

Yeah just like the PS4 doesn't have a 1080p 60FPS racer that say sh** when DC freaking piss all over Forza 5 graphically does everything dynamic and look sick as hell.

Forza had everything baked and faked and was even downgrade to be able to hit the 60FPS target.

Please dude stop inventing crap,fact is the PS4 is more powerful and there is nothing the XBO can do better just deal with it.

NO The Order 1888 which was announce and reveal way before FH2,and uses Forward Rendering oh graphically blow the fu** away of any xbox one game.

@daious said:

Make a guess? Majority of it is compat but not all of it. AMD/NVIDIA has already talked about it... You don't have to be so rude about it.

"Last week both AMD and NVIDIA were making the media rounds with the welcome news that Microsoft’s latest DirectX would be supported by current generation graphics cards. AMD has stated anything with their GCN architecture has native support for DX12 and any series released after NVIDIA’s Fermi architecture will have support the API as well. Today thoughwe learned these graphics cards will have only limited support for the API, with key elements missing."

There is a difference between supporting it and fully supporting it. Full support with AMD chips will come with R9 300 series.

current generation graphics cards will not be able to use the new blend modes and conservative rasterization features. In order to use these features you will have to upgrade to AMD’s Radeon Rx 300 series, or NVIDIA’s second generation Maxwell architecture.

Granted its only a few features that you need a newer card for, it still isn't fully supported.

Holy sh** that link man you just earn 1 million points,if what is say it true then MS lie and it would explain why the xbox one version of DX which is a custom one saying to have DX12 features already was missing 2 key elements which MS claim that were coming latter,blend modes and conservative rasterization 2 things that MS would supposedly add latter.

So this features require new hardware that means MS isn't getting those 2 features which were the ones missing,i already argue that DX12 is on xbox one say day one,DX on xbox one is custom is not the same as on PC,it has DX12 features that is because DX12 pull some of the gains consoles API have and bring it to consoles,but the API has other features that require hardware support which mean the xbox one can't get those because it hardware isn't changing...hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Damn i am good....hahaha

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tymeservesfate

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#76  Edited By tymeservesfate
Member since 2003 • 2230 Posts

@Floppy_Jim said:

Well, where are the 1080p 60 FPS Sony games? This is an ingenious MS strategy, to let everyone think they're beaten and strike back with NDA DirectX12 + SDKs. There's no way they're giving up a 30% power advantage to Sony.

EXACTLY...-_-

@daious said:

@ttboy said:

@daious said:

@ttboy said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

Do you have a link for that assertion? Console games are bottlenecked by the CPU. We will find out in less than a year. Brad Wardell was already asked about the same thing that you mentioned. You can google his response.

I would guess the biggest bottleneck of the xboxone is the GPU not the CPU. People don't understand the existing API that consoles have. Its the reason why a console with the exact same specs of a PC will outperform the PC.

The best thing about DX12 on consoles is that more PC games will be ported to consoles and the easy of developing a game for both xboxone and PC. Xboxone will get more games out of this.

where in my OP do you see me or anyone saying XB1 will get the full effect of DX12, i'm curious. because you seem to be so exasperated over this thread, over something that was never really said.

http://gamingbolt.com/the-division-technical-director-directx-12-will-improve-performance-visuals-of-xbox-onepc-games

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. ---He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more---”

i mean, yes, it will help with porting games. that's known. but he also made a point to point out that it will increase the quality of games visually as well as in performance. ur basically saying he's wrong, or is being misquoted. plus the issue with this "the metal" quote ur talking about earlier...? do you have the link to the full interview so we can see exactly what ur talking about with him meaning these enhancements are for PC, not XB1?

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deactivated-62825bb2ccdb4

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#77 deactivated-62825bb2ccdb4
Member since 2003 • 666 Posts

@daious said:

@ttboy said:

@daious said:

@ttboy said:

again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.

Do you have a link for that assertion? Console games are bottlenecked by the CPU. We will find out in less than a year. Brad Wardell was already asked about the same thing that you mentioned. You can google his response.

I would guess the biggest bottleneck of the xboxone is the GPU not the CPU. People don't understand the existing API that consoles have. Its the reason why a console with the exact same specs of a PC will outperform the PC.

The best thing about DX12 on consoles is that more PC games will be ported to consoles and the easy of developing a game for both xboxone and PC. Xboxone will get more games out of this.

The DX 11.X that the Xbox One uses is primarily single core bound. This is the similar situation with the PC. 11.X is a lower level API but does not bring the DX 12 feature set.

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Tighaman

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#78 Tighaman
Member since 2006 • 1038 Posts

@tormentos: last time I checked horizon will be out before The Order so yes its the first game to do it and The Order is not 1080p nice spin and yes DC do look good but its static and stale no matter how good it look and we will see which one looks the best when they launch and no weather for DC until the end of the year

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clyde46

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#79 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

So far MS has shown Forza 5 and now the new Fable on a PC running on high end gear. Why are they dancing round the point and just release the games for PC?

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edwardecl

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#80 edwardecl
Member since 2005 • 2240 Posts

So this game is coming out on PC then if they are showing a tech demo on PC hardware? if so LOL Xbox.

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LJS9502_basic

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#81 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180226 Posts

@clyde46 said:

So far MS has shown Forza 5 and now the new Fable on a PC running on high end gear. Why are they dancing round the point and just release the games for PC?

Don't they tend to show their games on PC?

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#82  Edited By deactivated-62825bb2ccdb4
Member since 2003 • 666 Posts

This was posted last year and its one of the better explanations of the reasons why MS chose such a strange architecture.

so-could-the-x1s-secret-sauce-be-voxel-cone-ray-tracing

I did the leg work. I'll just present verifiable evidence. You decide. I'm going to try to keep it much simpler this time. I did in a question and answer format so that if some members might not be up to speed can also understand, but if you know what these things are just skip ahead to the next question.

What is Ray Tracing?

Some would say it's the holy grail of computer graphics lighting. It gives you realistic dynamic reflections, lights, shadows, materials. Huge increases in geometry. It's the future. If you don't know, you probably should stop right here and go look it up.

Why is ray tracing awesome?

Ray Tracing using a 3D graphics program POV-Ray.

A true ray tracing engine gives you true global illumination, shadows, lights, reflections, specular maps, realistic material surfaces, all standard. Energy conservation is easy to do. Lighting looks amazing. Materials can finally look realistic without the need for a whole bunch of texture tricks. Refractions and transparencies(glass looks like glass, water looks like water and bends and distorts light as it should). It removes all the necessary hacks that never quite look as good from development.

Developers don't have to create a whole bunch of reflection maps to do reflections, water, and many other materials. It's a pain in the ass and they never quite look good enough anyway. It's also going to offer a huge increase in geometry. Rasterized graphics are easy to get up and going, but past a certain point, the more polygons you have the slower it gets. Ray tracing is mainly dependent on resolution and it's the complete opposite. It takes a lot of power, more than currently available to get it up and running. But once you cross that point, you can have lots and lots of geometry at very little additional cost. It won't affect it. That means more actual 3D detail in objects, especially organic plants like trees. So there's an expected switch in the industry coming shortly. Well known figureheads like John Carmack is already gearing his studio towards preparing for it.

Can we have it?

Not yet. We're actually really close on the PC, but still nowhere near being able to run on next gen consoles. Real ray tracing is around the corner on the PC though. See the Brigade ray tracing engine. Keep an eye on it. It's going to be awesome. The only thing confirmed for consoles are screen spaced reflections, which is NOT to be confused with the real thing.

What's the difference between ray tracing and screen spaced reflections?

SSR is a standard feature of Crytek's Cryengine, Frostbite, Unreal Engine 4, Guerrilla's KZ:SF engine, and a lot of others, but it's not the same thing. They are not even remotely close to being similar. It's a hack mainly to give you dynamic reflections only. It's not a lighting engine. It's just used for getting dynamic reflections for rasterized graphics, but that's all. No transparency, no lighting and shadows, no global illumination, no refraction benefits, none of that. And the reflections themselves only take into considerations objects on screen, not objects that may be out of your view, but where you should still see their reflection if you are at an angle. It just won't be there.

Screen spaced reflections:

Brigade 2 ray tracing lighting engine:

Note how close it gets to images you typically only see in 3D animation programs or Pixar movies. Except, it's in real time and runs at roughly 30fps but currently requires roughly a Titan to run and it's still very noisy in motion.

The entire lighting engine, shadows, material creation is driven by the ray tracing engine. Not a lot of texturing going on here. The look of materials isn't dependent so much on the original texture, but rather on how light bounces off the defined material surface. Procedural texture work fantastic with ray tracing in creating realistic materials. Notice the reflections at the top which reflect objects not on scree, which beyond the capabilities of screen spaced reflections.

Most developers still use reflection maps for their reflections which is just a texture, taken from the point of view of the reflective object. It's as fake as it gets and your next gen racing games like Forza 5 and Drive Club are still both using this age old hack.

What is Voxel Cone Ray Tracing?

Ray tracing done cheap. It works in a similar same way. Instead of individual rays, or lines, being shot from each pixel, it uses cones and voxels. It covers a larger area and uses a few cones. Prior implementations used along the lines of 9-12 cones which obviously saves a lot of power compared to a ~million rays at a 1080p resolution. It makes ray tracing almost practical on current GPU power. But the triangle or polygon data being calculated on in the scenes are converted and stored as voxels.

It's an approximation, but you can't argue with the results:

What are voxels?

\

Unlike polygons, where the basic unit is the triangle, a voxel is a 3D cube. They're volume based. Never really been that popular in videogames other than the very well known game Outcast in the 90s, but now they are making a comeback. Project Spark, Everquest Next are using it are using it for their graphics engines. They're really great at creating organic looking graphics as well as have superior scalability(zooming in and out to great draw distances) and performance compared to polygons.

Ever notice how you can't typically make out the individual polygons in Project Spark?

That's because those aren't your typical polygon graphics made out of triangles you're looking at. They're voxels. That's why those objects scale big or small so nicely. Kodu, Project Spark's father, uses a voxel engine as well.

So those voxels are somehow now being used to do ray tracing?

Yes.

Who came up with Voxel Cone Ray Tracing?

Cyril Crassin is typically credit with it. Here's a paper outlining a course on it which was the big clue in this research. You can try to decipher it, or you can take my word for it and I will save you a headache and time. Up to you.

Why didn't it make it big? Why didn't I hear about it?

It did. It was a big hit at Siggraph and Unreal Engine 4 was initially based on it. Turns out some are saying they eventually had to strip it out(quietly) due to them not being able to get it up to speed on next generation consoles and mid-range PC's. However, there's hope. There's also a plugin for Unity and it runs quite well.

What was the problem with it?

The data was being stored in a Sparse Voxel Octree. Don't worry about what it means if you don't understand but let's just say it's a 3D, layered, voxel grid. What's important is that traversing this grid is very slow.

How did they fix it?

Instead of using voxels to store the data, they're using a 3D texture. Like a cube, or a voxel, but stored as an array of 2D textures. Now it was fast, but this had some problems of its own.

What was the problem with using 3D textures for cone ray tracing?

The 3D textures were big and required a lot of memory.

This demo served both as a means to familiarize myself with voxel cone tracing and as a testbed for performance experiments with the voxel storage: plain 3D textures, real-time compressed 3D textures, and 3D textures aligned with the diffuse sample rays were tested. Sparse voxel octrees were not implemented due to time constraints, but would have been nice to have as a baseline reference. Compared to SVO in the context of voxel cone tracing (as opposed to ray casting, where SVO is a clear winner), 3D textures allow for easier filtering, direct lookups without evaluating the octree structure, and potentially better cache and memory bandwidth utilization (depending on cone size and scene density). The clear downside is the space requirement: 3D textures can’t scale to larger scenes or smaller, more detailed voxels. There may be ways to work around this deficiency: sparse textures (GL_AMD_sparse_texture), compression, or hybrid schemes that mix tree structures with 3D textures.

http://www.geeks3d.com/20121214/voxel-cone-tracing-global-illumination-in-opengl-4-3/

How did they fix that?

Using partial resident textures.

What the the hell are partial resident textures?

It chops up an enormous texture into tiny little tiles, and streams only what is needed, saving both RAM and bandwidth.

Left: Original texture.

Middle: It gets stored in a tile pool.

Right: How it's stored in memory.

The original texture on the left is big. The combined 64kb tiles on the right, takes up very little space in RAM. So powerful you can store textures as big as 3GB in 16MB of RAM(or eSRAM?).

Why is this important in reference to the X1?

Because DirectX 11.2 and the X1 chip architecture is built for doing partial resident resources in hardware. Removes the limitations other software implementations had, which held some engines back, such as John Carmack's Rage.

The X1's architecture and data move engines have tile and untile features natively, in hardware:

Doesn't the PS4 have this too?

Both AMD GPUs support partial resident textures, but we do know for a fact Microsoft added additional dedicated hardware in the X1 architecture to focus on this area beyond AMD's standard implementations.

Did Sony?

Ask Sony.

How come no one's talked about this?

They have. MS talked about partial resident resources in their DirectX build conference. They explained the move to partial resident resources as a solution in this paper. It just might end up being even more important than originally believed. And more recently an unnamed third party developer is touting better ray tracing capabilities on the X1:

Xbox One does, however, boast superior performance to PS4 in other ways. “Let’s say you are using procedural generation or raytracing via parametric surfaces – that is, using a lot of memory writes and not much texturing or ALU – Xbox One will be likely be faster,” said one developer.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/pow...erences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

When might we hear something about it?

DirectX11.2 was only recently unveiled earlier this year. No launch games would have been designed for this. Partial resident textures are still a fairly new technique, and just now getting supported in hardware. Voxel cone ray tracing is also a fairly new implementation. And the alternative of using 3D texture along with partially resident textures is even newer, and not many have attempted it. Developers will certainly need time to start messing around with both.

So what now?

We don't know to what extend partially resident resources will be used on the X1, but if it's enough to pull off cone ray tracing using partially resident 3D textures, it's going to be a pretty big deal. It was a big blow when Epic had to yank it out of UE4, but the Unity plug in and 3d texture implementations still gives hope. Even Epic are considering re-introducing it at some point. Perhaps second and third generation games will attempt to use this. If possible, I'd expect to hear more about it soon.

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slimdogmilionar

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#83 slimdogmilionar
Member since 2014 • 1345 Posts

@tormentos said:

@Chutebox said:

Ooooooo, tormo schooled some lems with his first post!

I just can't believe how obsess lemmings are with having something hidden to match the power for the PS4,MS really did damage to lemmings when they chose such a weak hardware,lemmings can't get over it.

And the best part is that they claim to admit the PS4 is more powerful,but on any thread about power you see them talking about secret sauce DX,the cloud or something.

One poster on another thread claimed that the xbox one has 6GB of extra ram over the PS4 thanks to ESRAM and tile resources..hahahaha

You know already Blackace secret NDA hardware..is just epic they just can't grab the fact that the xbox one is weaker and always will be.

@tormentos: why not just call me out about the whole 6gb of textures being stored on ESRAM? Maybe because it's the truth? M$ can store 3gb of textures in 16mb of esram XBox one has 32 mb(48 actually what the other 16mb is for we don't know) so 32mb of esram equals 6gb of textures. Can you debunk that? NO.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2013/4-063 at about 18 minutes in he specifically says they are only using a 16mb tile pool to render a 3gb representation of mars surface. 16mb to render 3gb of data, again 16mb, one last time for it to really sink in 16mb tile pool to render 3gb, the one has 32mb. If 16mb equals 3gb then shouldn't 32 equal 6gb.

Here is someone who makes it even easier for you to understand http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/x1-esram-directx-11-2-from-32mb-to-6gb-worth-of-textures.453263349/

Let's put it like this xbox 360 was easier to program for than ps3 even though xbox 360 still had edram granted PS4 is easier to program for than both. Last gen developers chose xbox360 unified architecture despite having to do extra work by moving stuff to edram, it was easier than trying to program for the Cell's spu's. Sony had no tricks up their sleeve to make the PS3 easier to program for devs just had to learn the system to bring out the true power of the Cell.

Naturally we see the same trend this gen dev's will opt to dev for system that's easier to program. In order for M$ to really get dev's to use esram properly they are going to have to provide the tools themselves that will make esram easy to program for, ie DX12 and new sdk's. Dx12 for xbox will not be what a lot of people think but it will make it easier for developers to program for Xbox one and use esram efficiently, hell M$, Nvidia and Epic are working together to implement DX12 in UE4. The xbox will get easier to program for, I mean it was only made by some of THE BEST engineers in the world, by one of THE BEST software companies in the world, sorta like Apple products.

PS4 is more powerful but it still has it's flaws the most recent being Sony just letting the cat out of the bag that real world memory bandwith is only about 140gb/s and the more the cpu is used the lower that number goes.

http://wccftech.com/sony-ps4-effective-bandwidth-140-gbs-disproportionate-cpu-gpu-scaling/

http://kakigadget.com/sony-ps4-effective-gpu-bandwidth-is-140-gbs-not-176-gbs-disproportionate-cpu-and-gpu-scaling.html

It makes sense why they were pushing gpgpu so much though, if they keep most of the work on the gpu they get to maintain higher bandwidth.

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m3dude1

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#84 m3dude1
Member since 2007 • 2334 Posts

one of the most unimpressive tech demos ive seen. looks like a low budget xbone title

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GamersJustGame

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#85 GamersJustGame
Member since 2014 • 323 Posts

@tormentos: you avoid his question. If you are wrong..... Will you leave the forum forever? No new account. You will completely cease to exist here.

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GrenadeLauncher

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#86  Edited By GrenadeLauncher
Member since 2004 • 6843 Posts

@tymeservesfate said:

that's fine, you don't appreciate my opinion, do you. since Tormentos old ass links impressed you so much try looking at this one:

http://gamingbolt.com/the-division-technical-director-directx-12-will-improve-performance-visuals-of-xbox-onepc-games

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more.”

a big name developer in Ubisoft just 2 days ago spoke on how the coming implication of DX12 to the XBOX ONE and pc is giving their project a very good boost in performance and quality. so why the **** are you riding a link made months ago about a tweet Phil Spencer made on a whim lol smh. Ubisoft/devs saying it directly isnt enough for you either, huh?

seems like you cows are the ones ignoring the facts here not me and others. you can cherry pick all the links you want...but the storm is coming, lol.

Easier and faster porting? Yes we already know about that. Known that for months. "Very good boost" - nothing like that in the quote though.

That means Xbone's gonna get more of those PC indies you hate.

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#87 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 33795 Posts

@tymeservesfate said:

where in my OP do you see me or anyone saying XB1 will get the full effect of DX12, i'm curious. because you seem to be so exasperated over this thread, over something that was never really said.

http://gamingbolt.com/the-division-technical-director-directx-12-will-improve-performance-visuals-of-xbox-onepc-games

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt. ---He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further. “It also lets us work closer to “the metal”, the actual hardware, which means we can push performance and visual quality even more---”

i mean, yes, it will help with porting games. that's known. but he also made a point to point out that it will increase the quality of games visually as well as in performance. ur basically saying he's wrong, or is being misquoted. plus the issue with this "the metal" quote ur talking about earlier...? do you have the link to the full interview so we can see exactly what ur talking about with him meaning these enhancements are for PC, not XB1?

“DirectX 12 brings PC and Xbox development closer, which makes development easier and faster, allowing us to focus more on features,” Anders Holmquist, who is the Technical Director of The Division said to GamingBolt.

This talks about ease of use which is also what Phill Spencer stated..hahahahaa

He also revealed that it will improve the performance and visual quality even further.

This ^^^ is a joke without any numbers performance can increase 1% there you have it he wasn't lying the performance increased.

Yes and other developer make fun of MS for making such claims,some even asked why MS would go on record to say such a thing,because when you are on record yeah that shit is going to byte you back if you fail.

@ttboy said:

The DX 11.X that the Xbox One uses is primarily single core bound. This is the similar situation with the PC. 11.X is a lower level API but does not bring the DX 12 feature set.

DX12 features al already on xbox one,only 2 are missing and those ones are say to need new hardware which mean MS isn't getting them into the xbox one any time soon,blending is say to need new hardware period.

Tile Resources is a DX12 feature and is already on xbox one Since day 1..lol

No the xbox one CPU tool allow for all cores to be use and have low CPU over head since day 1,is something of consoles which you don't get,lower CPU over head which DX 12 is promising left and right is a features of consoles don't you get it consoles have lower CPU over head for years,is the reason when it came to draw call consoles gave PC a run for their money stated by AMD it self.

“These days we have so much horsepower on PCs that on high-resolutions you see some pretty extraordinary-looking PC games, but one of the things that you don’t see in PC gaming inside the software architecture is the kind of stuff that we see on consoles all the time. On consoles, you can draw maybe 10,000 or 20,000 chunks of geometry in a frame, and you can do that at 30-60fps. On a PC, you can’t typically draw more than 2-3,000 without getting into trouble with performance, and that’s quite surprising – the PC can actually show you only a tenth of the performance if you need a separate batch for each draw call.”

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/21/pcs-are-10x-more-powerful-than-consoles/

Did you read that ^^ consoles can do more draw call than PC back on 2011 10,000,20,000 or even more when PC could barely do 3,000 without getting into performance trouble.

And what DX12 bring to the table on PC.?

Yeah more draw calls as well something already on consoles...

The demonstration renders an asteroid field with 50,000 unique asteroids in it which equates to 50,000 draws per frame.

http://www.developer-tech.com/news/2014/aug/13/directx-12-boosts-fps-50-and-cuts-power-consumption-half/

Lower CPU over head,to the metal coding,more draw call are all features of consoles all are on DX12,and have been on xbox one since day 1,except for coding to the metal that arrived like 6 or 7 months ago.

DX12 is on xbox one since day1.

@Tighaman said:

@tormentos: last time I checked horizon will be out before The Order so yes its the first game to do it and The Order is not 1080p nice spin and yes DC do look good but its static and stale no matter how good it look and we will see which one looks the best when they launch and no weather for DC until the end of the year

Yeah because the Order was delayed hahaha but the order was suppose to hit this holiday fact is The order was announce first and uses forward rendering i remember shutting this crappy argument of you already when you claim no game on PS4 did that,now you changed your argument to FH2 is the first game to do it,bragging about doing something first is stupid when the PS4 can do it as well,MS was also the first to charge for online play now sony does it to big deal.

The point is the PS4 can do it and the Order is endless times more impressive graphically than FH2.

I never say it was 1080p and yes it is 1080p with black bars,just like blu-ray movies 2.40.1 ratio with full screen would not be 1080p either but higher.

Is FH2 2.40.1 cinematic.?

lol; stop your butthurt damage control the last thing DC look like is stale,you can say FH2 could be better game or score better,but calling the game stale just show you are a sad lemming which call all games stale on PS4,hey what happen do your description of PS4 games.? You know constricted,bland enclosed oh yeah you drop it as soon as i told you that you were describing Ryse which can't be more enclosed than it is,and that by far is the best looking XBO game..lol

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#88 ShoTTyMcNaDeS
Member since 2011 • 2784 Posts

DX12 will obviously be a help to X1 developers. I don't think anyone is saying that it is going to recreate the X1 GPU but it will invigorate it! The bigger question is why the Sony fanboys care so damn much about what MS is doing with the X1? I know this is System Wars, but you guys are simply ridiculous with your seething hate towards the X1. Go play your PS3.5 and Nightmare Creatures 2(Bloodborne) and don't worry about what the X1 is doing as you obviously would never own one!!

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PAL360

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#89 PAL360
Member since 2007 • 30574 Posts

I´m not a fan of the series, but this is looking awesome! Love the art direction.

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Draign

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#90 Draign
Member since 2013 • 1824 Posts

FH2 isnt supposed to be possible on Xbox One.

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#91  Edited By Tighaman
Member since 2006 • 1038 Posts

Sony is behind the ball again from bumpmapping to unified ram, now coherrent cache,HBM, color compressions, CPU offloading why sony fanboys still looking at ROPs and CUs and its things moving way beyond that stop reading Neogaf, ign, and other sites work and read on some real material.

The demos that was so big on ps4 debut The Element Demo by Epic, The Division, and more to come are moving to the Xbox one. Why you think that is? Dx12

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#92  Edited By Tighaman
Member since 2006 • 1038 Posts

@tormentos: It don't matter if it was delayed first or not IT ISNT COMING OUT FIRST so its not the first to use it in a game that's complete.

Well hell let make every games with blackbars and name it 1080p lol you crazy is your tv naitve 2.40.1? You believe anything it was obvious they didn't have enough BW to use msaa and keep any kind of framerate so them blackbars are needed ...you funny so DC is not constricted ? Have you seen that timer the shows you that you are not on the road its the most linear racer I have ever seen RAD RACER had more depth, bland all the games exclusively been bland the best game on the system right now is Garden Warfare, for a game made in 11 months I think RYSE did well and its still best looking game on consoles.

You are soooooo lame on these topics you keep going backwards same ol copy and paste thoughts from people that really didn't have a clue what these machines was just how things used to be but never thought how things are going to move forward, Intel, IBM, NVIDIA and AMD have said GPUs have been powerful from the start but the CPU and the SOFTWARE was never up to par well MS with dx12 is making it possible to get the best out of your gpu.

Where are sony at theses panels and discussions where are they with VXGI, and VTR? Nowhere to be found

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slimdogmilionar

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#93 slimdogmilionar
Member since 2014 • 1345 Posts

@tormentos:

@ttboy said:

This was posted last year and its one of the better explanations of the reasons why MS chose such a strange architecture.

so-could-the-x1s-secret-sauce-be-voxel-cone-ray-tracing

What the the hell are partial resident textures?

It chops up an enormous texture into tiny little tiles, and streams only what is needed, saving both RAM and bandwidth.

Left: Original texture.

Middle: It gets stored in a tile pool.

Right: How it's stored in memory.

The original texture on the left is big. The combined 64kb tiles on the right, takes up very little space in RAM. So powerful you can store textures as big as 3GB in 16MB of RAM(or eSRAM?).

Why is this important in reference to the X1?

Because DirectX 11.2 and the X1 chip architecture is built for doing partial resident resources in hardware. Removes the limitations other software implementations had, which held some engines back, such as John Carmack's Rage.

The X1's architecture and data move engines have tile and untile features natively, in hardware:

Doesn't the PS4 have this too?

Both AMD GPUs support partial resident textures, but we do know for a fact Microsoft added additional dedicated hardware in the X1 architecture to focus on this area beyond AMD's standard implementations.

Did Sony?

Ask Sony.

How come no one's talked about this?

They have. MS talked about partial resident resources in their DirectX build conference. They explained the move to partial resident resources as a solution in this paper. It just might end up being even more important than originally believed. And more recently an unnamed third party developer is touting better ray tracing capabilities on the X1:

Xbox One does, however, boast superior performance to PS4 in other ways. “Let’s say you are using procedural generation or raytracing via parametric surfaces – that is, using a lot of memory writes and not much texturing or ALU – Xbox One will be likely be faster,” said one developer.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/pow...erences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

When might we hear something about it?

DirectX11.2 was only recently unveiled earlier this year. No launch games would have been designed for this. Partial resident textures are still a fairly new technique, and just now getting supported in hardware. Voxel cone ray tracing is also a fairly new implementation. And the alternative of using 3D texture along with partially resident textures is even newer, and not many have attempted it. Developers will certainly need time to start messing around with both.

So what now?

We don't know to what extend partially resident resources will be used on the X1, but if it's enough to pull off cone ray tracing using partially resident 3D textures, it's going to be a pretty big deal. It was a big blow when Epic had to yank it out of UE4, but the Unity plug in and 3d texture implementations still gives hope. Even Epic are considering re-introducing it at some point. Perhaps second and third generation games will attempt to use this. If possible, I'd expect to hear more about it soon.

Dedicated hardware to focus on this area beyond AMD's standard implementations.

Store 3gb in 16mb of eSRAM.

Please explain how you proved me wrong.

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jsmoke03

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#94 jsmoke03
Member since 2004 • 13719 Posts

you know who i havent seen in awhile, @misterpmedia . he and tormentos usually the sony defense force against these guys. oh and wasdie

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#96 GravityX
Member since 2013 • 865 Posts
Loading Video...

Top secret video released.

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#97  Edited By 04dcarraher
Member since 2004 • 23858 Posts

@scottpsfan14 said:

The problem with this DX12 thing is that the XB1 already has a low level API that squeezes performance from the console. Just like PS4 has. DX12 is also more abstract than Sony's API. DX12 will possibly make ports easier for XB1, but since the tool set of PS4's API is catered to AMD hardware just the same, it will be getting the ports just the same as XB1 since PS4's API is directly compatable with DirectX HLSL and PSSL. So I can't really think of an advantage that DX12 will give XB1 over the competition. This is real talk, no fanboy shit.

DX12 will lower the cpu overhead some in the X1 which will allow the X1 cpu to allocate more cpu cycles to other tasks or feed the gpu abit more data giving it a slight boost in average performance.

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#98  Edited By Krelian-co
Member since 2006 • 13274 Posts

@scottpsfan14 said:

The problem with this DX12 thing is that the XB1 already has a low level API that squeezes performance from the console. Just like PS4 has. DX12 is also more abstract than Sony's API. DX12 will possibly make ports easier for XB1, but since the tool set of PS4's API is catered to AMD hardware just the same, it will be getting the ports just the same as XB1 since PS4's API is directly compatable with DirectX HLSL and PSSL. So I can't really think of an advantage that DX12 will give XB1 over the competition. This is real talk, no fanboy shit.

the people who actually know about this and not dumb lems on this forums agree, dx12 will bring mostly benefits on pc, sadly lems who have no clue will just keep spamming "TEH DIRECTX 12" without knowing anything about it.

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#99 GravityX
Member since 2013 • 865 Posts

@Krelian-co: And a lot of cows dismiss that MS has customized many parts of the CPU and GPU, use move engines and other processors that unload CPU and GPU. Currently Xbox 1 uses a placeholder API. Once DX12 is released it will unleash many DX12 features that are baked into the hardware, that just can't be utilized with the current API being used.

Beta tested in the future; its a marathon, not a sprint. Built for 10 years cycle.

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#100 sailor232
Member since 2003 • 6880 Posts

Give me Dx12 for my pc, for my Xb1 I want Cortana.