Paedophilia in Islam

Reposeted for Gambler3 (and Ghoklebutter, of course!)

Pedophilia in the Quran

From WikiIslam

Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old, and had sexual intercourse with her when she was nine. This fact has been recorded many times in Sahih ahadith. This article will discuss the Qur'anic verse that allows Paedophilia.

Contents

1 Introduction
2 Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic
3 Tafsirs of the Verse
3.1 Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
3.2 Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Uthaymeen
3.3 'Ibn Kathir
3.4 Al-Jalalayn
3.5 Ibn Abbas
3.6 Al-Wahidi
3.7 Al-Tabari
3.8 Zamakshari
3.9 Tabrasi
3.10 Al-Shoukani
3.11 Abu-Hayyan
4 Evidence from the ahadith
5 Apologetic objections
5.1 The Arabic word "Nisa" does not refer to young females
5.2 This verse applies to married teenagers
5.3 65.4 talks only of the 'Iddah and not of sexual activity
5.4 This verse can be applied to unconsummated widows
5.5 This verse is only talking about adult women who don't know if they are pregnant
6 Conclusion
7 See Also
8 References
9 External Links
Introduction

The Qur'an has stipulated a waiting period which women must observe before they can remarry. This waiting period must be observed after they are divorced, or if their husbands have died. In the Quran, this is called Iddah or Iddat *ا4;عدة*. However, there is one exception to this requirement in Quran 33:49:

Arabic:يااي7;ا ا4;ذي6; ا5;6;8;ا اذا 6;3;حت5; ا4;5;ؤ5;6;ات ث5; ط4;2;ت5;8;7;6; 5;6; 2;ب4; ا6; ت5;س8;7;6; 1;5;ا4;3;5; ع4;ي7;6; 5;6; عدة تعتد8;6;7;ا1;5;تع8;7;6; 8;سرح8;7;6; سراحا ج5;ي4;ا
Transliteration: Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha nakahtumu almuminati thumma tallaqtumoohunna min qabli an tamassoohunna fama lakum AAalayhinna min AAiddatin taAAtaddoonaha famattiAAoohunna wasarrihoohunna sarahan jameelan

Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon. But content them and release them handsomely.
Qur'an 33:49
From the verse above it is understood that Iddah *stipulated waiting period* is required if sexual contact has occurred within the marriage. If a woman is not touched by her husband, she should not have to observe any waiting period at all.

After the mention of women who have not had their marriage consummated, the Quran goes further - discussing the women who need to observe the 'iddah, and the span of time required. We see in Quran 65.4:

Arabic: 8;ا4;4;ائي يئس6; 5;6; ا4;5;حيض 5;6; 6;سائ3;5; ا6; ارتبت5; 1;عدت7;6; ث4;اثة اش7;ر 8;ا4;4;ائي 4;5; يحض6; 8;ا8;4;ات ا4;اح5;ا4; اج4;7;6; ا6; يضع6; ح5;4;7;6; 8;5;6; يت2; ا4;4;7; يجع4; 4;7; 5;6; ا5;ر7; يسرا
Transliteration: Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran

Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses *it is the same*: for those who carry *life within their wombs*, their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
Qur'an 65:4
Here the 'Iddah is prescribed to three categories of women:

First the phrase: "Yaisna min al-maheedhi" which means "those women who are desperate of menses" is an indication to women who reached the stage of menstruation but do not menstruate and of those who reached menopause. Desperate of menses underlines that it concerns women who though reached the age, fail to menstruate too. Their 'Iddah period is three months.
Next comes, "Wallaee Lam yahidhna" which means "those who have not menstruated yet" This group of females are pre-pubescent girls who have not yet menstruated. Here the 'Iddah prescribed for them is equal to the previous group of women *ie. three months*.
Lastly, the women who are pregnant - their prescribed 'iddah is until they have given birth.
The above translation of the verse masks the real meaning, so the verse has to be studied in Arabic. The true meaning of this verse and its implications are explicitly endorsed by Tafsir's as will be shown below.

Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic

The Quran says in Arabic:

8;ا4;4;ائي 4;5; يحض6;" 1;عدت7;6; ث4;اثة أش7;ر

"and those who never had menses" *because they are underage*
Quran 65:4, Tafsir from al-islam.com
The transliteration of the verse and the meaning of each portion of the verse is given below:

Wa Al-Lā'ī Lam Yaĥiđna

wa * 8;َ * = and

Al-Lā'ī * 8;َا4;4;َّائِي * = for those who

Lam * 4;َ5;ْ * = did not *negation in past tense* *1*

Yaĥiđna * يَحِضْ6;َ * = menstruate.

Yaĥiđna comes from the verbal root H-Y-D * حيض * which means "to menstruate".

The addition of prefix "Ya" and suffix "na" to the root "HYD" shows that the word is used in used in third person, feminine gender, plural, imperfective aspect.*2*

The imperfective aspect, by itself lacks any tense feature. *1* The tensed negatives like lam * 4;َ5;ْ * *negation in past tense*, lan * 4;6; * *negation in future tense*, laa * 4;َ * *negation in present tense* combined with imperfectives decide the tense in this case.

Thus lam Yadrus = He did not study.

In the verse 65:4, Lam Yaĥiđna = 'those who did not menstruate'.

Further the imperfective verb in the context of lam * 4;َ5;ْ * *past tensed negatives* is in the Jussive mood. *1* From Wikipedia:

The mood is similar to the cohortative mood, in that it expresses plea, insistence, imploring, self-encouragement, wish, desire, intent, command, purpose or consequence. In some languages, the two are distinguished in that cohortative occurs in the first person and the jussive in the second or third. It is found in Arabic, where it is called the 5;جز8;5;, majzum. The rules governing the jussive in Arabic are somewhat complex. *3*
Supporting these meanings, from Lane's lexicon, Lam *4;* means 'not':

Lam = 4;
lam = Negative particle giving to the present the sense of the perfect; not.
Lane's Lexicon for Lam
From the Lexicon, arabic word for Menstruate is 'Haiz' *حيض*:

Ha-Ya-Dad *Ha-Alif-Dad* = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. *1* impf. act. 65:4

mahid n.m. 2:222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page: 322, 323
Lane Lexicon for Haa
Conclusion:

It is clear the verse 65:4 is given as a command to be followed *Jussive mood*.
The verse itself refers to those women who did not menstruate*in all of past time until the present time*, which can include children or girls before puberty or attainment of menarche *first period*.
Therefore, the exact translation of this portion of Qur'an 65:4 is "Not menstruated yet" * 4;َ5;ْ يَحِضْ6;َ *. In Arabic, the menstruating process is called HAIDH * حيض *. It is possible to turn this noun into its verb form. Like we do it with menstruation, "menstruate" is YAHIDH * يَحِض *. But it is LAM * 4;َ5;ْ * that appears before YAHIDH and the NA * 6;َ * associated with YAHIDH and this puts Islamic apologists in a quandary because it cannot have any other meaning than "Not menstruated yet". This is the appropriate English translation.

This verse 65:4 should be read as a continuation of Quran 33:49. If a woman who has not been used for sex should not have to observe any Iddah at all, as mentioned in 33:49, what is the reason for the prescribed Iddah for those women who have not yet menstruated? This is a clear indication marrying pre-pubescent girls and having sex with them is sanctioned by the Qur'an.

The phrase found in Qur'an 65:4 as "Wallaee Lam Yahidhna" is sometimes mistranslated by apologists. Exact meaning of the phrase is available in Tafsirs *Quran interpretations*. Let Mufassirs clarify the issue of "Wallaee Lam Yahidhna":

Tafsirs of the Verse

Only the relevant parts from the Tafsirs will be quoted, because quoting the tafsir's for the verse in their entirety will be space consuming and a waste of effort. What needs to be confirmed will be extracted from Tafsirs. If anyone doubts whether these have been quoted out of context, the reference is given on each Tafsirs so it can be verified by checking original sources.

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi

Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. *Al-Ahzab: 49*. Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi: Tafhim al Quran. Commentary on Quran Chapter 65:4
Note here what Maududi mentions on giving pre-pubescent girls in marriage and consummating the marriage with them. The interpreter affirms it is permitted by Quran and no Muslims can question or forbid it.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Uthaymeen

Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Uthaymeen Quran. Surah al-Talaaq 65:4: If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her 'iddah is three months, because Allaah says *interpretation of the meaning*: "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah *prescribed period*, if you have doubt *about their periods*, is three months; and for those who have no courses *i.e. they are still immature* their 'Iddah *prescribed period* is three months likewise.
Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Uthaymeen, Majmoo'at As'ilah tahumm al-Usrah al-Muslimah, p. 61-63
The reason for bringing two more recent scholars is to show that nothing has changed in the Islamic tenets on marrying and having sex with pre-pubescent girls, even in this modern era.

'Ibn Kathir

The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in *Surat* Al-Baqarah. *see 2:228* The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.
Tafsir 'ibn Kathir 65:4
Al-Jalalayn

And *as for* those of your women who *read allā'ī or allā'i in both instances* no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed *waiting* period shall be three months, and *also for* those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall *also* be three months - both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these *latter* their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten *days* *Q. 2:234*. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed *waiting* period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.
Tafsir Al-Jalalayn - Quran 65.4
Ibn Abbas

*And for such of your women as despair of menstruation* because of old age, *if ye doubt* about their waiting period, *their period *of waiting* shall be three months* upon which another man asked: "O Messenger of Allah! "What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?" *along with those who have it not* because of young age, their waiting period is three months." Another man asked: "what is the waiting period for those women who are pregnant?" *And for those with child* i.e. those who are pregnant, *their period* their waiting period *shall be till they bring forth their burden* their child. *And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah* and whoever fears Allah regarding what he commands him, *He maketh his course easy for him* He makes his matter easy; and it is also said this means: He will help him to worship Him well.
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn 'Abbâs - Quran 65.4
Al-Wahidi

*And for such of your women as despair of menstruation...* *65:4*. Said Muqatil: "When the verse *Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart...*, Kallad ibn al-Nu'man ibn Qays al-Ansari said: 'O Messenger of Allah, what is the waiting period of the woman who does not menstruate and the woman who has not menstruated yet? And what is the waiting period of the pregnant woman?' And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse". Abu Ishaq al-Muqri' informed us> Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn 'Abdan> Abu'l-Azhar> Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu 'Uthman 'Amr ibn Salim who said: "When the waiting period for divorced and widowed women was mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah, Ubayy ibn Ka'b said: 'O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!' He asked him: 'And who are they?' He said: Those who are too young *such that they have not started menstruating yet*, those who are too old *whose menstruation has stopped* and those who are pregnant'. And so this verse *And for such of your women as despair of menstruation...* was revealed".
Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi - Quran 65.4
Al-Tabari

The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah *prescribed period*, if you have doubt *about their periods*, is three months; and for those who have no courses *i.e. they are still immature* their 'Iddah *prescribed period* is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.
Tafsir Al-Tabari, 14/142
Zamakshari

ر8;ي أ6; 6;اساً 2;ا4;8;ا: 2;د عر1;6;ا عدة ذ8;ات ا4;أ2;راء، 1;5;ا عدة ا4;4;ائي 4;ا يحض6;؛ 1;6;ز4;ت: 1;5;ع6;9; إِ6;ِ ٱرْتَبْتُ5;ْ *: إ6; أش3;4; ع4;ي3;5; ح3;5;7;6; 8;ج7;4;ت5; 3;ي1; يعتدد6; 1;7;ذا ح3;5;7;6;ّ، 8;2;ي4;: إ6; ارتبت5; 1;ي ذ5; ا4;با4;غات 5;ب4;غ ا4;يأس 8;2;د 2;در8;7; بستي6; س6;ة 8;بخ5;س 8;خ5;سي6;، أ7;8; د5; حيض أ8; استحاضة؟ * 1;َعِدَّتُ7;ُ6;َّ ثَ4;َ0;ٰثَةُ أَشْ7;ُرٍ * 8;إذا 3;ا6;ت 7;ذ7; عدة ا4;5;رتاب ب7;ا، 1;غير ا4;5;رتاب ب7;ا أ8;4;9; بذ4;3; * 8;َٱ4;َّٰۤئ9; 4;َ5;ْ يَحِضْ6;َ * 7;6; ا4;صغائر
Zamakshari - 65:4
The bold text means "Those who have not menstruated" are young girls.

Tabrasi

* 8;ا4;4;آئي 4;5; يحض6; * ت2;دير7; 8;ا4;4;آئي 4;5; يحض6; إ6; ارتبت5; 1;عدت7;6; أيضاً ث4;اثة أش7;ر 8;حذ1; 4;د4;ا4;ة ا4;3;4;ا5; ا4;أ8;4; ع4;ي7; 8;7;6; ا4;4;8;اتي 4;5; يب4;غ6; ا4;5;حيض 8;5;ث4;7;6; تحيض ع4;9; 5;ا 5;رَّ بيا6;7;.
Tabrasi - 65:4
The bold text translates as "They are those who haven't reached the age of menstruation". Tabrasi comments on the phrase "Wallaee Lam yahidhna" = "Those who have not menstruated yet" in the verse.

Al-Shoukani

* 1;َعِدَّتُ7;ُ6;َّ ثَ4;َ0;ٰثَةُ أَشْ7;ُرٍ 8;َٱ4;4;اَّئِ9; 4;َ5;ْ يَحِضْ6;َ * 4;صغر7;6;، 8;عد5; ب4;8;غ7;6; س6; ا4;5;حيض، أي: 1;عدت7;6; ث4;اثة أش7;ر
Al-Shoukani - 65:4
The bold part translated as: "Those who have not menstruated yet" are young girls who have not reached the age of menstruation.

Abu-Hayyan

8;ا4;4;ائي 4;5; يحض6; * ، 1;ا4;عدة 7;ذ7;، 1;ت4;خص 1;ي 2;8;4;7;: * إ6; ارتبت5; * 2;8;4;ا6;: أحد7;5;ا، أ6;7; ع4;9; ظا7;ر 5;1;7;8;5; ا4;4;غة 1;ي7;، 8;7;8; حص8;4; ا4;ش3;؛ 8;ا4;آخر، أ6; 5;ع6;ا7; ا4;تي2;6; 4;4;إياس؛ 8;ا4;2;8;4; ا4;أ8;4; 5;ع6;ا7;: إ6; ارتبت5; 1;ي د5;7;ا، أ7;8; د5; حيض أ8; د5; ع4;ة؟ أ8; إ6; ارتبت5; 1;ي ع4;8;2; بح5;4; أ5; 4;ا؛ أ8; إ6; ارتبت5;: أي ج7;4;ت5; عدت7;6;، أ2;8;ا4;. 8;ا4;ظا7;ر أ6; 2;8;4;7;: 8;ا4;4;ائي 4;5; يحض6; * يش5;4; 5;6; 4;5; يحض 4;صغر،
Abu-Hayyan - 65:4
The bold: "Those who have not menstruated yet" denotes those not menstruated because of being young.

Evidence from the ahadith

Here are a few quotes from Imam Bukhari in his book of Tafsir and hadith collections:

Mujahid said that "if you have any doubt" *65:4* means if you do not know whether she menstruates or not. Those who do not longer menstruate and those who have not yet menstruated, their 'idda is three months.
Bukhari CCCLXXXIV - The Tafsir of Surat at-Talaq
Giving one's young children in marriage *is permissible* by virtue of the Statement of Allah: 'And for those who have courses' *i.e. they are still immature* *Sura 65:4* And the 'Iddat *waiting period for a woman before lawful sexual intercourse* for the girl before puberty is three months *in the above Verse*.
Bukhari *Chapter 39*
Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself *for marriage* to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked *him*, "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran *by heart*?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an *as her Mahr*." 'And for those who have no courses *i.e. they are still immature*. *65.4* And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months *in the above Verse*.
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:63
The following is the Sahih hadith explaining the verse by Muhammad himself:

8;ا4;4;ائي 4;5; يحض6; , 1;جع4; عدت7;ا ث4;اثة أش7;ر 2;ب4; ا4;ب4;8;غ * أي 1;د4; ع4;9; أ6; 6;3;اح7;ا 2;ب4; ا4;ب4;8;غ جائز

"and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible."
Hadith in Arabic from Al-Islam.com
Apologetic objections

The Arabic word "Nisa" does not refer to young females

Apologists claim that the Quran only uses the word Nisa to refer to mature, adult women, therefore 65:4 cannot be talking about pre-pubescent females. This is indeed a weak argument, which we can refute using the Quran itself. Here are some verses that use the word "nisa":

Transliteration: Waith najjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun

Literal: And *remember the time* when we saved you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with cruel suffering, slaughtering your sons and sparing *only* your women - which was an awesome trial from your Sustainer;
Qur'an 2:49
Transliteration: Waqala almalao min qawmi firawna atatharu moosa waqawmahu liyufsidoo fee alardi wayatharaka waalihataka qala sanuqattilu abnaahum wanastahyee Nisaahum wainna fawqahum qahiroona

Literal: Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; *only* their females will we save alive; and we have over them *power* irresistible."
Qur'an 7:127
Transliteration: Waith anjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuqattiloona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun

Literal: And remember we rescued you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females: in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.
Qur'an 7:141
Transliteration: Waith qala moosa liqawmihi othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith anjakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi wayuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun

Literal: Remember! Moses said to his people: "Call to mind the favour of Allah to you when He delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: they set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons, and let your females live: therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
Qur'an 14:6
Transliteration: Falamma jaahum bialhaqqi min AAindina qaloo oqtuloo abnaa allatheena amanoo maAAahu waistahyoo Nisaahum wama kaydu alkafireena illa fee dalalin Literal: And when he brought them the Truth from Our presence, they said: Slay the sons of those who believe with him, and spare their females. But the plot of disbelievers is in naught but error.
Qur'an 40:25
In the above verses, the word "Nisa" is referring to female infants. To understand this clearly, we must look to the Exodus account, because these verses were plagiarized from the Bible.

"And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah; and he said: 'When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.'
Exodus 1:15-16
And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying: 'Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
Exodus 1:22
Moreover the Quran itself clarifies "Who the NISA are".

Arabic: 8;يست1;ت8;6;3; 1;ي ا4;6;ساء 2;4; ا4;4;7; ي1;تي3;5; 1;ي7;6; 8;5;ايت4;9; ع4;ي3;5; 1;ي ا4;3;تاب 1;ي يتا5;9; ا4;6;ساء ا4;4;اتي 4;اتؤت8;6;7;6; 5;ا3;تب 4;7;6; 8;ترغب8;6; ا6; ت6;3;ح8;7;6; 8;ا4;5;ستضع1;ي6; 5;6; ا4;8;4;دا6; 8;ا6; ت2;8;5;8;ا 4;4;يتا5;9; با4;2;سط 8;5;ات1;ع4;8;ا 5;6; خير 1;ا6; ا4;4;7; 3;ا6; ب7; ع4;ي5;ا

Transliteration: Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisa-i quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisa-i allatee la tu/toonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

Literal: And they ask for your opinion/clarification in the women, say: "God decreed/clarifies in them *F*, and what is read/recited on you in The Book in the women orphans/minors that lose their father, those who *F* you did not give them *F* what was written/dictated to them *F*, and you desire that you marry them *F*, and the weakened from the children/new borns, and that you take care of to the orphans/minors that lose their father with the just/equitable; and what you make/do from goodness, so that God was/is with it knowledgeable."
Qur'an Text/Transliteration 4:127
In summary: When Muslims asked Muhammad who the "Nisa" were, he said they were the:

- Orphans
- Female wards
- Those you desire to marry
- The weakened from the children or new born.
This verse applies to married teenagers

There is an alternative interpretation that does not involve pederasty, which is sexual activity between young girls and boys, i.e. early teenage years when menstruation may not have begun *or become regular* among girls, who are married to boys similar in age. This type of marriage was not uncommon in Semitic cultures, for example some scholars suggest that Mary *the mother of Jesus* was somewhere between the ages of twelve and fourteen when she married Joseph *although it should be noted that non-canonical gospels suggest Joseph was a mature man, possibly as old as ninety*4**. Given that sexual activity among teenagers is common among many cultures, including Western ones, this appears to be the most reasonable interpretation.
Given the evidence from the Islamic texts themselves, this interpretation is not the 'most reasonable' as asserted. We have ample evidence that Muhammad *who is considered the uswa hasana - perfect example* married and had sex with a pre-pubescent Aisha, we have evidence that Muhammad's companions also did it and that Muslims to this very day are marrying pre-pubescent females and having intercourse with them. In none of these cases are the husbands comparable in age to the wife. So even though this is a possible interpretation, it is by no means the only reason that Muhammad revealed this verse - as evidenced also in the tafsir's provided above. Simply put, Muhammad did not specify an 'iddah for those whom menstruation was not present, so one had to be sent regarding these 3 groups of women. Nowhere in the Qur'an or the ahadith does it discuss teenagers marrying teenagers *ie. to 'explain' this verse* and all the evidence that we have points to *much* older men marrying and having sexual relations with pre-pubescent females.

65.4 talks only of the 'Iddah and not of sexual activity

Often pointed out is the fact that 65.4 does not explictly discuss consummation or other sexual activity in regards to any of the females discussed in the verse; it merely sets the prescribed 'Iddah required for each. The 'iddah *prescribed waiting period* for females is required after a divorce or widowing, so that a child's father can be correctly idenfitied. This is established in Qur'an 33:49. The verse is quoted above.

Here are some tafseer's on this ayah:

*يأَيُّ7;َا ا4;َّذِي6;َ ءَا5;َ6;ُ8;اْ إِذَا 6;َ3;َحْتُ5;ُ ا4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َ0;تِ ثُ5;َّ طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 5;ِ6; 2;َبْ4;ِ أَ6; تَ5;َسُّ8;7;ُ6;َّ 1;َ5;َا 4;َ3;ُ5;ْ عَ4;َيْ7;ِ6;َّ 5;ِ6;ْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّ8;6;َ7;َا 1;َ5;َتِّعُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 8;َسَرِّحُ8;7;ُ6;َّ سَرَاحاً جَ5;ِي4;اً*
*49. O you who believe! When you marry believing women, and then divorce them before you have sexual intercourse with them, no `Iddah have you to count in respect of them. So, give them a present, and set them free in a handsome manner.*

This Ayah contains many rulings, including the use of the word Nikah for the marriage contract alone. There is no other Ayah in the Qur'an that is clearer than this on this point. It also indicates that it is permissible to divorce a woman before consummating the marriage with her.

*ا4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َ0;تِ*

*believing women* This refers to what is usually the case, although there is no difference between a believing *Muslim* woman and a woman of the People of the Book in this regard, according to scholarly consensus. Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, `Ali bin Al-Husayn Zayn-ul-`Abidin and a group of the Salaf took this Ayah as evidence that divorce cannot occur unless it has been preceded by marriage, because Allah says,

*إِذَا 6;َ3;َحْتُ5;ُ ا4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َ0;تِ ثُ5;َّ طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ*

*When you marry believing women, and then divorce them*

The marriage contract here is followed by divorce, which indicates that the divorce cannot be valid if it comes first. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "If someone were to say, `every woman I marry will ipso facto be divorced,' this does not mean anything, because Allah says:

*يأَيُّ7;َا ا4;َّذِي6;َ ءَا5;َ6;ُ8;اْ إِذَا 6;َ3;َحْتُ5;ُ ا4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َ0;تِ ثُ5;َّ طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ*

*O you who believe! When you marry believing women, and then divorce them....*. It was also reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "Allah said,

*إِذَا 6;َ3;َحْتُ5;ُ ا4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َ0;تِ ثُ5;َّ طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ*

*When you marry believing women, and then divorce them.* Do you not see that divorce comes after marriage A Hadith to the same effect was recorded from `Amr bin Shu`ayb from his father from his grandfather, who said: "The Messenger of Allah said:

«4;َا طَ4;َا2;َ 4;ِابْ6;ِ آدَ5;َ 1;ِي5;َا 4;َا يَ5;ْ4;ِ3;»

*There is no divorce for the son of Adam with regard to that which he does not possess.* This was recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah. At-Tirmidhi said, "This is a Hasan Hadith, and it is the best thing that has been narrated on this matter. It was also recorded by Ibn Majah from `Ali and Al-Miswar bin Makhramah, may Allah be pleased with them, that the Messenger of Allah said:

«4;َا طَ4;َا2;َ 2;َبْ4;َ 6;ِ3;َاح»

*There is no divorce before marriage.*

*1;َ5;َا 4;َ3;ُ5;ْ عَ4;َيْ7;ِ6;َّ 5;ِ6;ْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّ8;6;َ7;َا*

*no `Iddah have you to count in respect of them.* This is a command on which the scholars are agreed, that if a woman is divorced before the marriage is consummated, she does not have to observe the `Iddah *prescribed period for divorce* and she may go and get married immediately to whomever she wishes. The only exception in this regard is a woman whose husband died, in which case she has to observe an `Iddah of four months and ten days even if the marriage was not consummated. This is also according to the consensus of the scholars.

*1;َ5;َتِّعُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 8;َسَرِّحُ8;7;ُ6;َّ سَرَاحاً جَ5;ِي4;اً*

*So, give them a present, and set them free in a handsome manner.* The present here refers to something more general than half of the named dowery or a special gift that has not been named. Allah says:

*8;َإِ6; طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 5;ِ6; 2;َبْ4;ِ أَ6; تَ5;َسُّ8;7;ُ6;َّ 8;َ2;َدْ 1;َرَضْتُ5;ْ 4;َ7;ُ6;َّ 1;َرِيضَةً 1;َ6;ِصْ1;ُ 5;َا 1;َرَضْتُ5;ْ*

*And if you divorce them before you have touched *had a sexual relation with* them, and you have fixed unto them their due *dowery* then pay half of that* *2:237*. And Allah says:

*4;اَّ جُ6;َاحَ عَ4;َيْ3;ُ5;ْ إِ6; طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ ا4;6;ِّسَآءَ 5;َا 4;َ5;ْ تَ5;َسُّ8;7;ُ6;َّ أَ8;ْ تَ1;ْرِضُ8;اْ 4;َ7;ُ6;َّ 1;َرِيضَةً 8;َ5;َتِّعُ8;7;ُ6;َّ عَ4;َ9; ا4;ْ5;ُ8;سِعِ 2;َدَرُ7;ُ 8;َعَ4;َ9; ا4;ْ5;ُ2;ْتِرِ 2;َدْرُ7;ُ 5;َتَ0;عاً بِا4;ْ5;َعْرُ8;1;ِ حَ2;ًّا عَ4;َ9; ا4;ْ5;ُحْسِ6;ِي6;َ*

*There is no sin on you, if you divorce women while yet you have not touched them, nor fixed unto them their due *dowery*. But bestow on them gift, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good.* *2:236* pIn Sahih Al-Bukhari, it was recorded that Sahl bin Sa`d and Abu Usayd, may Allah be pleased with them both, said, "The Messenger of Allah married Umaymah bint Sharahil, and when she entered upon him he reached out his hand towards her, and it was as if she did not like that, so he told Abu Usayd to give her two garments. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said "If the dowery had been named, she would not be entitled to more than half, but if the dowery is not been named, he should give her a gift according to his means, and this is the "handsome manner.
Tafsir 'ibn Kathir - Quran 33:49
*يٰأَيُّ7;َا ٱ4;َّذِي6;َ آ5;َ6;ُ8;ۤاْ إِذَا 6;َ3;َحْتُ5;ُ ٱ4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َاتِ ثُ5;َّ طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 5;ِ6; 2;َبْ4;ِ أَ6; تَ5;َسُّ8;7;ُ6;َّ 1;َ5;َا 4;َ3;ُ5;ْ عَ4;َيْ7;ِ6;َّ 5;ِ6;ْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّ8;6;َ7;َا 1;َ5;َتِّعُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 8;َسَرِّحُ8;7;ُ6;َّ سَرَاحاً جَ5;ِي4;اً* O you who believe if you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them *read tamassūhunna or tumāsūhunna* that is, before you have copulated with them, there shall be no *waiting* period for you to reckon against them, *no* waiting period *needed to preclude pregnancy* or otherwise. But provide for them, give them what they can use for *securing* comforts, in cases where no dowry has been fixed for them; otherwise theirs is to retain half of what was fixed, but no more - this is what Ibn 'Abbās said and it is *the opinion* followed by al-Shāfi'ī'; and release them in a gracious manner, leave them be without *the intention to cause them any* harm.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn - Quran 33:49
*يٰأَيُّ7;َا ٱ4;َّذِي6;َ آ5;َ6;ُ8;ۤاْ إِذَا 6;َ3;َحْتُ5;ُ ٱ4;ْ5;ُؤْ5;ِ6;َاتِ ثُ5;َّ طَ4;َّ2;ْتُ5;ُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 5;ِ6; 2;َبْ4;ِ أَ6; تَ5;َسُّ8;7;ُ6;َّ 1;َ5;َا 4;َ3;ُ5;ْ عَ4;َيْ7;ِ6;َّ 5;ِ6;ْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّ8;6;َ7;َا 1;َ5;َتِّعُ8;7;ُ6;َّ 8;َسَرِّحُ8;7;ُ6;َّ سَرَاحاً جَ5;ِي4;اً* *O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women* without naming the amount of their dowry *and divorce them before ye have touched them* before you had sexual intercourse with them, *then there is no period that ye should reckon* by counting the months or the periods of menstruation. *But content them* as is due by divorce by giving them at least a scarf or shawl *and release them handsomely* divorce them without any harm done to them.
Tafsir 'Ibn Abbas - Quran 33:49
This verse effectively removes the apologist's objection to Qur'an 65.4 as we see clearly that if a man has not consummated his marriage with his wife then she does not need to observe an 'iddah. If Qur'an 65.4 specifies that pre-pubescent females must observe a 3 month 'iddah then clearly sexual intercourse is halal to Allah.

This verse can be applied to unconsummated widows

Another claim is that Qur'an 65.4 doesn't necessarily mean that Muslim men can have sex with pre-pubescent females because there may be cases where a man has married a pre-pubescent female, but while waiting for her to attain menstruation before consummating the marriage, he died. The 'iddah could be referring to a situation such as this. This claim is invalid because the Qur'an specifies the 'iddah for *all* widows to be 4 months and 10 days; in Qur'an 2:234:

And *as for* those of you who die and leave wives behind, they should keep themselves in waiting for four months and ten days; then when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do for themselves in a lawful manner; and Allah is aware of what you do.
Qur'an 2:234
This verse clearly contradicts this particular apologist claim, since the 'Iddah specified in Qur'an 65.4 is for a different amount of time, therefore the verses are referring to different situations.

This verse is only talking about adult women who don't know if they are pregnant

The very reason 65:4 was revealed in the first place, was as a clarification to an existing revelation by Allah. Allah had already revealed that women must wait 3 menstrual periods before they can end the 'iddat and be free to marry again. This is in Quran 2:228:

And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Qur'an 2:228
However, after this, Muslim men went to Muhammad to ask about those who did not presently have their menses - how do they measure the 'iddat in those cases? It is in this circumstance that Allah sent down the clarification *65:4* for the three groups of women that did not have menstruation, therefore they could not wait the '3 menstrual cycles' as mandated by Quran 2:228.

Those Muslims who make this claim are ignoring what all of their own scholars have said about 65:4; that it is referring to the peri-menopausal and post menopausal women, the pre-pubescent girls and the pregnant women. The women who are currently menstruating are told in Quran 2:228 that they must wait 3 menstrual cycles, therefore this apologetic is also debunked.

Conclusion

The Qur'an stipulates that the Iddah for pre-pubescent girls, meaning: the holy text of Islam supports marrying and having sex with prepubescent girls. Since no Iddah is prescribed for a woman who has not had intimate contact with her husband, we see Iddah is prescribed for pre-pubescent girls in Qur'an 65:4. This is definitive proof that the Qur'an endorses paedophilia, the most abominable of all sexual crimes.

See Also

Aisha's Age of Consummation
Islam and Pedophilia
Contemporary Pedophilic Islamic Marriages
References

↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 Elabbas Benmamoun, Arabic morphology: The central role of the imperfective, Lingua 108 *1999* 175-201
↑ Arabic grammar - Wikipedia
↑ Jussive - Wikipedia
↑ http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
External Links

These links show that girls as young as 3 have been able to menstruate. This does not mean it is acceptable to have sex with them:

Puberty Hitting Girls as Young as 4 Years Old
The youngest mother on record was a 5-year-old girl who lived in Peru. She began menstruating at age 3
Retrieved from "http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Quran"
Categories: Qur'an | Pedophilia | Islamic Law
This page was last modified on 9 November 2009, at 06:51.

Let's see if pedophilla is really allowed in Islam:

Look at this verse:

O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily We have created you  from dust, then from a zygote, then from a clot then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make it clear to you . And We cause whom We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed term, then We bring you out as infants, then that you may reach your age of full strength. And among you there is he who dies (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the miserable old age, so that he knows nothing after having known. And you see the earth barren, but when We send down water (rain) on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells and puts forth every lovely kind (of growth).

And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them, but consume it not wastefully, and hastily fearing that they should grow up, and whoever amongst guardians is rich, he should take no wages, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable (according to his work). And when you release their property to them, take witness in their presence; and Allah is All Sufficient in taking account.

So here the adult who is keeping the orphan's inheritance from his/her deceased parents is required by God to never release the money until:

1. The orphan, boy or girl, reaches the age of marriage.

2. The adult keeper must see a "sound judgment" and enough maturity and responsibility in him/her in order for the former to be allowed to release the money to the orphan.

Most humans are mature by the time they reach adulthood, right?

Another verse:

And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Auliya or masters) and give them their Mahr according to what is reasonable; they (the above said captive and slave-girls) should be chaste, not adulterous, nor taking boy-friends. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit illegal sexual intercourse, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women. This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; but it is better for you that you practise selfrestraint, and Allah is OftForgiving, Most Merciful.

The word for child/infant is "tifla" in Arabic.

The word for young woman is "fataayah".

Notice that in the first verse it says that a child is raised until he/she attains full strength. Clearly you cannot marry children according to the above verse! Unless you consider young women to be the same as little girls.

Another verse:

And when the children among you come to puberty, then let them ask for permission, as those senior to them. Thus Allah makes clear His Ayat (Commandments and legal obligations) for you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

The word here is "alhalam" which means "come of age" or "puberty". This also refers to anyone who is of that age (aka a teenager). Clearly teenagers are not young women according to these verses.

So clearly you can only marry young women, not teenagers or little kids.

Now let's look at Aisha:

The well-known historian and scholar 'Allama 'Imad-ud-Deen Ibn Katheer writes in his 'Al-Badayah' about Sayedah Asma' daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr': Asma' died in 73 A.H. at the age of 100 years. She was ten years older than her sister 'Aishah. Now according to this report 'Asma' would have been 27-28 years old at the time of Hijrah and since she was ten years older than Sayedah 'Aishah, therefore the age of Sayedah 'Aishah would have been 17 or 18 years at the time of Hijrah. Accordingly, her birth falls about four or five years before the Call, and her age at the time of the consummation of marriage in 2 A.H. will work out to 19-20 years.

There is more evidence than that, but that's all I have for now.

Wow that's a lot of text. :o

I am guessing through the name of that website that it could possibly be blocked in my country.:?

Anyways I am off and will check out this thread tomorrow. :)

Wow that's a lot of text. :o

I am guessing through the name of that website that it could possibly be blocked in my country.:?

Anyways I am off and will check out this thread tomorrow. :)

Gambler_3

It probably is - Its a site where anyone can post and edit critical views on Islam.

I changed my browser from Chrome to Internet Explorer and it all seems to have worked OK - I don't know if there a problems with the Arabic text coming across.

Enjoy!

There are crazy colored paragraphs from the article I'm quoting so sorry if it distracts you guys.

Here are the supposed verses that condone paedophilla:

[065:001]  O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods: And fear God your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by God: and any who transgresses the limits of God, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance God will bring about thereafter some new situation.

[065:004]  Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear God, He will make their path easy. 

1-  Women who are very old.

2-  Women who have not had their monthly period at the time of the divorce.

3-  Women who are pregnant at the time of the divorce.

For point #2, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the woman was a young girl.  To me, it is clearly talking about the wife not having her period yet when the divorce happened.  Women on average have 10 days of menstruation each month.  Point #2 is speaking about the 20 other days.

As to my opinion, the scholars' interpretations are sometimes partial.  They do not cover the latter Laws that came to abrogate the current Laws that they're commenting on.  This misleads the reader.

As to the menstruation and the minimum age for marriage, I am not sure if the girl having her first period is the line that determines when she can get married or not.  The ample Holy Verses that I quoted in this article are clear about:

1-  INFANTS
2-  BABIES
3-  AND CHILDREN
4- And even incapable teenagers who are not fully grown up based on what the current life requires not being allowed to get married. 

Therefore, those verses do not condone paedophillia.

I don't know if you missed my first 4 posts. I guess they are hard to spot.

They contain the verse, translations and interpretations clearly. How do you respond to those?

I refuse to judge the morals of people who arent living in the same era as me. I have realised that it is quite impossible to do that since morals keep on changing for some reason. There is so much subjectivity here and different variables that it is really hard to judge. There were public washrooms where people used to take a dump sitting side by side. Can you imagine how much different such a society would be where taking a dump right next to a person without any cover would be perfectly "normal"??

I dont criticize muhammad for doing it with a 9 year old if he really did it. He also kept slaves and permitted it to have sex with them. I criticize those people who hold muhammad as the greatest person ever with "absolute" morals. It is so abundantly clear that he isnt an absolute moralistic example as muhammad dubbed himself in the quran. No single human being is an absolute moralistc model. Crtitizing muhammad for dubbing himself as the ultimate human being is valid as people who really believe in him can end up doing bad things without actually being a bad person.

It doesnt matter if there is confusion over islam's verdict over pedophilia cuz there is no confusion over the fact that Islam permits slavery which is worse than pedophilia. In most cases of a 14 year or younger having sex, there is much fault of the parents who didnt do their job well and I dont really consider 15+ as too young for sex, pedophilia should no longer apply for 15+ imo. In the case of slavery there is really no one who could have saved the day. Clearly the absolute objectively morality of the quran fails emphaticaly hard here and there is no reason to believe in this religion anymore as it is been "proven" wrong.

Islam does not allow you to "secretly" have sex with a 9 year old, the parents must approve or you are going to do zina. In the case of ayesha, looking at it from our moralistic point of view, abu bakr is to be blamed even more as he gave his 9 year old daughter for sex.

So basically Islam approves of parental approved pedophilia which is still wrong but the problem here is that if parents want to screw over their children than there is not much that can stop them from doing so. The real issue comes when parents sincerely think that it is "ok" since muhammad did it.

I refuse to judge the morals of people who arent living in the same era as me. I have realised that it is quite impossible to do that since morals keep on changing for some reason. There is so much subjectivity here and different variables that it is really hard to judge. There were public washrooms where people used to take a dump sitting side by side. Can you imagine how much different such a society would be where taking a dump right next to a person without any cover would be perfectly "normal"??

I dont criticize muhammad for doing it with a 9 year old if he really did it. He also kept slaves and permitted it to have sex with them. I criticize those people who hold muhammad as the greatest person ever with "absolute" morals. It is so abundantly clear that he isnt an absolute moralistic example as muhammad dubbed himself in the quran. No single human being is an absolute moralistc model. Crtitizing muhammad for dubbing himself as the ultimate human being is valid as people who really believe in him can end up doing bad things without actually being a bad person.

It doesnt matter if there is confusion over islam's verdict over pedophilia cuz there is no confusion over the fact that Islam permits slavery which is worse than pedophilia. In most cases of a 14 year or younger having sex, there is much fault of the parents who didnt do their job well and I dont really consider 15+ as too young for sex, pedophilia should no longer apply for 15+ imo. In the case of slavery there is really no one who could have saved the day. Clearly the absolute objectively morality of the quran fails emphaticaly hard here and there is no reason to believe in this religion anymore as it is been "proven" wrong.

Islam does not allow you to "secretly" have sex with a 9 year old, the parents must approve or you are going to do zina. In the case of ayesha, looking at it from our moralistic point of view, abu bakr is to be blamed even more as he gave his 9 year old daughter for sex.

So basically Islam approves of parental approved pedophilia which is still wrong but the problem here is that if parents want to screw over their children than there is not much that can stop them from doing so. The real issue comes when parents sincerely think that it is "ok" since muhammad did it.

Gambler_3

1. That makes sense.

2. You don't have to do everything he does. Does every Muslim have multiple wives?

3. It "permits"slavery but the slave can ask for freedom and isn't forced to do things beyond his/her capacity:

"Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them."

He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.

24:33"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"

This is proven by this Hadith:

"The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."

4 and 5. I agree with your points that Muhammad wasn't perfect, but that doesn't trash his character either. Let alone the validity of Islam's teachings. Even if he did marry a 9-year-old girl (which according to many reports is false) it was in the early days of Islam. Those verses I posted that imply the prohibition of paedophilla may have come after the marriage.

(Sorry for the colored text, I can't really fix it. :?)

Tell me whoz morals are superior, someone who asks to treat slaves well or someone who asks to not keep slaves at all? How can I follow a moral code of life which I deem inferior? How can I follow such a religion at all?

Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.

I can still have sex with them cuz it is not beyond their capacity. FAIL!!!

I agree with your points that Muhammad wasn't perfect, but that doesn't trash his character either. Let alone the validity of Islam's teachings.

Surah 68. Al-Qalam (The Pen)

1. Nun. By the Pen and the (Record) which (men) write,-

2. Thou art not, by the Grace of thy Lord, mad or possessed.

3. Nay, verily for thee is a Reward unfailing:

4. And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.

So here muhammad is telling people that he is not mad or possessed, talk about desperation.:lol:

And then he says that he has an "exalted standard of character". By that declaration yes it destroys the validity of Islam since his moral character is now left way behind and considered ammoral in today's world.

Surah 33. Al-Ahzab (The Clans, The Coalition, The Combined Forces)

21. Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. 

Sorry but that is again fail......

Well, I am truly sorry if you thought I'm trying to convince you that Islam is the ultimate religion. I don't care what path you choose.

1. Look at this narration:

"Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to prostitution (when they desire chastity). (24:33)" 

As you've seen earlier slaves can ask for their freedom. Also:

He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.

Obviously rape is much worse than a mere slap. :|

Finally, since slavery is now abolished, none of the laws pertaining to slavery are important to Muslims.

2. Muhammad was sinless, however, he made mistakes like any human being. One time he got irritated at an old man who kept interrupting him. Muhammad later found out that he was deaf, and thus forgave the old man. 

3. Obviously if you aren't a Muslim, you won't think that the Qur'an was written by God, so the argument that he was delusional is rather futile.

4. You don't understand; we don't need to imitate Muhammad like puppets! Sure following the Sunnah is good, but that doesn't mean you have to brush your teeth with a tree branch like he did. Or marry multiple wives. 

Fail indeed. :roll:

Wtf? Having sex with a slave is now prostitution.:lol:

"My master forces me to commit fornication" her master was obviously making her do it with other people for money if that verse came in response to this. My God why do you keep on twisting things and taking them completely our of context?:roll:

Having sex with a slave is not even fornication as it is "legal" for a slave to have sex with her master and vice versa.:|

Surah 23. Al-Muminun (The Believers)

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



1. The believers must (eventually) win through,-

2. Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

3. Who avoid vain talk;

4. Who are active in deeds of charity;

5. Who abstain from sex,

6. Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

Yes fornication indeed.:lol:

Finally, since slavery is now abolished, none of the laws pertaining to slavery are important to Muslims.

ghoklebutter

Wtf? Having sex with a slave is now prostitution.:lol:

"My master forces me to commit fornication" her master was obviously making her do it with other people for money if that verse came in response to this. My God why do you keep on twisting things and taking them completely our of context?:roll:

Having sex with a slave is not even fornication as it is "legal" for a slave to have sex with her master and vice versa.:|

Surah 23. Al-Muminun (The Believers)

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



1. The believers must (eventually) win through,-

2. Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

3. Who avoid vain talk;

4. Who are active in deeds of charity;

5. Who abstain from sex,

6. Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

Yes fornication indeed.:lol:

 

Gambler_3

1. Even so, rape isn't allowed:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and God will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19) 

2. "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."

Slavery was slowly abolished by Islam. Sure Muhammad owned slaves but he treated them like his own family and freed 67 enslaved people. If slavery it totally okay in Islam then why did Muhammad tell his followers to free slaves?

If slavery it totally okay in Islam then why did Muhammad tell his followers to free slaves?

He said that to get more followers. When a muslim paid the freedom of a slave in captavity of a non-believer, that slave almost always converted to Islam.

The FACT is he himself kept slaves and prolly had sex with one of them as well which is the reason why the quran allows it cuz he himself wanted to do it.

He said that to get more followers. When a muslim paid the freedom of a slave in captavity of a non-believer, that slave almost always converted to Islam.

The FACT is he himself kept slaves and prolly had sex with one of them as well which is the reason why the quran allows it cuz he himself wanted to do it.

Gambler_3

1. Why is that? It seems like a coincidence that most of them converted. Or could it be that many of them actually wanted to convert to Islam? Oh no, that's impossible! :roll: 

2. Once again, you're a non-Muslim. So that argument is useless.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

He said that to get more followers. When a muslim paid the freedom of a slave in captavity of a non-believer, that slave almost always converted to Islam.

The FACT is he himself kept slaves and prolly had sex with one of them as well which is the reason why the quran allows it cuz he himself wanted to do it.

ghoklebutter

1. Why is that? It seems like a coincidence that most of them converted. Or could it be that many of them actually wanted to convert to Islam? Oh no, that's impossible! :roll: 

2. Once again, you're a non-Muslim. So that argument is useless.

2. To assume that god wrote the quran is one of the biggest logical fallicies you can ever make in a rational discussion. It is abundantly clear that he didnt, I hope your consiousness will be raised one day.

1. Does it change anything? He still wanted his followers to grow, an entirely selfish thing which has nothing to do with a will to help the slaves.

2. To assume that god wrote the quran is one of the biggest logical fallicies you can ever make in a rational discussion. It is abundantly clear that he didnt, I hope your consiousness will be raised one day.

Gambler_3

1. Do you have any basis for your claim? 

2. I'm not getting into that discussion about the Qur'an being written by God.

My point was that your opinion is worthless in that argument because you aren't a Muslim. Otherwise you wouldn't be against Islam, no? We're discussing about the teachings of Islam, not it's validity.

My consciousness seems fine to me, thank you for being concerned.

1. Do you have any basis for your claim? 

ghoklebutter

Dont need any. The guy himself kept several slaves and yet was telling others to free them...Gambler_3

True, but Muhammad himself freed about 67 slaves. A lot of his slaves were either set free or decided to stay as a slave. For example, Zayd was a faithful slave of Muhammad who stayed as a slave because he felt honoured to serve him. Slavery in Islam back then was really like servitude, considering all of the freedoms the workers were given.

Let's see if pedophilla is really allowed in Islam:

ghoklebutter

I can't help but notice in ALL your postings in this thread you have AVOIDED addressing the article that has been posted. Your own scholars, the analysis of the Arabic AND the ahadith have made clear to you that Quran 65:4 DOES allow sex with pre-pubescent females.

Can you please address the article?

 

Note that the word "infant" is "tifla" in Arabic.

Clearly there is a difference from those who attain full strength and infants/little children.

ghoklebutter

This is a strawman argument. No one is claiming that 65:4 is referring to infants, but pre-pubescent girls. The verse you brought is only referring to creation of humans (conception) & gestation. It has nothing to do with young females or Nikah/Zuwaj (marriage)

 

And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them, but consume it not wastefully, and hastily fearing that they should grow up, and whoever amongst guardians is rich, he should take no wages, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable (according to his work). And when you release their property to them, take witness in their presence; and Allah is All Sufficient in taking account.

So here the adult who is keeping the orphan's inheritance from his/her deceased parents is required by God to never release the money until:

1. The orphan, boy or girl, reaches the age of marriage.

2. The adult keeper must see a "sound judgment" and enough maturity and responsibility in him/her in order for the former to be allowed to release the money to the orphan.

ghoklebutter

Yes you are right - this verse (4:6) is only talking about guardians of orphans. It is referring to the fact that the guardian is in charge of their property/wealth until they judge them to be mature enough to take care of their own monetary affairs.

 

Most humans are mature by the time they reach adulthood, right?

ghoklebutter

 This is a non-sequitur argument. You cannot say that because our WESTERN values attribute post puberty as "adulthood" and marriage, that 7th Century Arabians did also. Also, the revelational circumstances of Quran 4:3 make it clear that BEFORE its revelation (4:3) guardians were MARRYING the orphan girls who were UNDER their charge in order to maintain control of their property/wealth.By this alone you cannot say that the verse you quoted (4:6) means that "marriageable age" was post-puberty.Tafsirs & ahadith on 4:3 .

Therefore, if you are right, then there is a contradiction between 4:3 and 4:6, but if I am right (as all your texts - Quran, tafsir & ahadith) show, there is no contradiction. 

  

Another verse:

The word for child/infant is "tifla" in Arabic.

The word for young woman is "fataayah".

ghoklebutter

If you had READ the article that started this thread, you would see that your "objections" have already been refuted. "Nisa" does not always refer to "woman" but is also used to refer to "girl". But again I notice your red herring in attempting to say that WE are talking about marrying of infants. Indeed this is NOT the case.

 

Notice that in the first verse it says that a child is raised until he/she attains full strength. Clearly you cannot marry children according to the above verse! Unless you consider young women to be the same as little girls.

ghoklebutter

No, but "Nisa" is used in the Quran to refer to girls AND women - please see the article in the OP again. 

  

Another verse:

And when the children among you come to puberty, then let them ask for permission, as those senior to them. Thus Allah makes clear His Ayat (Commandments and legal obligations) for you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

ghoklebutter

YOU HAVE QUOTED THIS OUT OF CONTEXT!!!! It's not talking about Nikah/Zawaj!! (marriage).  Here it is in context:

Quran 24:58-59: O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

But when the children among you come of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does Allah make clear His Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

It has NOTHING to do with marriageable age!!! 

 

So clearly you can only marry young women, not teenagers or little kids.

ghoklebutter

No, read above. YOu did NOT quote in context, therefore you avoided conveying what the verses were actually saying. NOTHING to do with Nikah/Zuwaj.

  

Now let's look at Aisha:

ghoklebutter

Aisha is irrelevant to this topic - but if you  like, open a new thread and I will pick apart your apologetics there.

Here are the supposed verses that condone paedophilla:

ghoklebutter

The verse is 65:4.

The verses are clearly speaking about divorce of women, and there are three categories of those women:

1-  Women who are very old.

2-  Women who have not had their monthly period at the time of the divorce.

3-  Women who are pregnant at the time of the divorce.

ghoklebutter

No, Number 2 is incorrect. Here's the sequence of events:

1. The Muslim's needed to know how to count the 'iddat for divorced women (to determine paternity of any offspring), so Allah revealed Quran 2:228, which states that 3 menstrual cycles are required to measure the 'iddat.

2. Later on, some Muslm men went to Muhammad and asked about those who did NOT have their menstruation. They mentioned THREE groups of women; those who were too old (peri and post menopausal women), those who were too young (pre-pubescent) and those who were pregnant.

3. Therefore, 65:4 was revealed to assign the 'iddat for these women who were not ALREADY covered in 2:228.

Your argument falls flat on its face, because YOU state that 65:4 can cover those who are not CURRENTLY menstruating - but if you read Quran 2:228, then it is CLEAR that THREE (3) menstrual cycles are required to complete the 'iddat - therefore it is irrelevant if a woman is presently menstruating at the time of divorce or not, because she still has to wait three cycles.

For point #2, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the woman was a young girl. 

ghoklebutter

AGAIN the evidence has been presented to you:

1. The Analysis of the Arabic used in the Quran that cites Classical Arabic dictionaries

2. The Tafsirs

3. The ahadith

You have not addressed ANY of these sources (let alone the article) - you seem hellbent on obsfucating the issue by bringing all kinds of irrelevant information in to divert the issue. I ask you: WHO would know better? YOUR scholars or you? 

To me, it is clearly talking about the wife not having her period yet when the divorce happened. 

ghoklebutter

This has already been addressed. Quran 2:228 refutes you conclusively.

Women on average have 10 days of menstruation each month. 

ghoklebutter

4 -7 days actually.

Point #2 is speaking about the 20 other days.

ghoklebutter

False. Quran 2:228 refutes you.

As to my opinion, the scholars' interpretations are sometimes partial. 

ghoklebutter

Your scholars are UNANIMOUS on this. NONE of them disagree on the issue. NONE. Also the language used in the verse has been analysed in the original Arabic and cites CLASSICAL ARABIC DICTIONARIES. 

They do not cover the latter Laws that came to abrogate the current Laws that they're commenting on.  This misleads the reader.

ghoklebutter

65:4 has not been abrogated.

1-  INFANTS
2-  BABIES

ghoklebutter

65:4 is NOT talking about infants/babies. The only one implying as much here is you.

3-  AND CHILDREN

ghoklebutter

This has been refuted in the article in the OP. "Nisa" as used in the Quran refers to BOTH girls and women.

4- And even incapable teenagers who are not fully grown up based on what the current life requires not being allowed to get married. 

ghoklebutter

This has also been refuted in the article. 65:4 does NOT refer to teenagers. I added that apologetic (and debunked it) myself.

Therefore, those verses do not condone paedophillia.

ghoklebutter

Sorry, but until you address the article (and correct WHERE it has gone wrong), then we have to side with YOUR Quran, YOUR scholars and YOUR ahadith on this issue.

Of course I do NOT say that pedophilia is a widespread practice and I KNOW most Muslims are disgusted by such a thing, but this does not negate the fact that it is allowed in the Quran, and practiced by those Muslim men who have the inclination and the money.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

1. Even so, rape isn't allowed:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and God will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19) 

ghoklebutter

You misunderstand this verse. Islam is claimed to be a continuation of Judaism, and in Judaism (at least in the older days), when a man died, his WIFE was automatically given to one of his brothers (if he had any), and she became then HIS wife. The woman did not have a choice in the matter. You can see this in the Bible in the story of Onan (for anyone who has read the bible).

Therefore the Quran is saying here: "No, don't do that - women can CHOOSE whom they will marry and whom they will not marry." "inherit" here does not mean anything about sex, but the old practice of marrying a widow to one of her husband's relatives.

Thanks, Sanitarium1, and welcome to the Atheism union!

It seems you've saved me much work!

If slavery it totally okay in Islam then why did Muhammad tell his followers to free slaves?

He said that to get more followers. When a muslim paid the freedom of a slave in captavity of a non-believer, that slave almost always converted to Islam.

The FACT is he himself kept slaves and prolly had sex with one of them as well which is the reason why the quran allows it cuz he himself wanted to do it.

Gambler_3

Yes you are right - Muhammad got in big trouble with his wives once, because he had sex with Maryiah - one of his slaves, when it was one of his wives' "night" with him. 

For everyone else, "those in your right hand" refers to wives, concubines and sex slaves. Islam did not outlaw NOR abolish slavery, but it endorses it. yes, it says a good deed is to free a slave, but it does not prohibit you (ANYWHERE) from getting more slaves. In fact, to this day in Muslim countries, Muslim's own slaves - both black and white.

@ghoklebutter: PLEASE address the article given in the OP - the references that are given to you - the Arabic analysis, the tafsirs (allll of them) and the ahadith.

At this point you're on shaky ground, because you have avoided addressing any of that and attempted to divert the conversation. Unfortunately at this point, you have given nothing in evidence that would convince me to modify that article in any way.

Although THANK YOU I have made a note and will be adding your claim about 4:6 to the "apologetic objections" section in the next day or so (time permitting).

Best Wishes

ghoklebutter: No worries mate. I look forward to reading your reply when you have time to post it.

peace :)

Hey Sanitarium1 impressive posts you got there, welcome to the union.

Post in the atheistic dogma sticky thread so we can know more about your views.:)

You misunderstand this verse. Islam is claimed to be a continuation of Judaism, and in Judaism (at least in the older days), when a man died, his WIFE was automatically given to one of his brothers (if he had any), and she became then HIS wife. The woman did not have a choice in the matter. You can see this in the Bible in the story of Onan (for anyone who has read the bible).

 

Therefore the Quran is saying here: "No, don't do that - women can CHOOSE whom they will marry and whom they will not marry." "inherit" here does not mean anything about sex, but the old practice of marrying a widow to one of her husband's relatives.

Sanitarium1

Thank you for clarifying that. I wasn't too sure what that meant myself. Either way it has a good meaning.

This is a pretty good indication that hurting a woman is not allowed:

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect. (30:21)

You are right that the verse you quoted does give women the right to choose their husbands, so it is a good verse and fixes a problem with Judaism (as it was practiced at the time - I am not that familiar with Judaism so I don't know how it is now).

Regarding 30:21, this doesn't really indicate that you shouldn't 'hurt' your wives: From Tafsir 'Ibn Kathir (excerpt):

=====

﴿8;َ5;ِ6;ْ ءايَ0;تِ7;ِ أَ6;ْ خَ4;َ2;َ 4;َ3;ُ5; 5;ِّ6;ْ أَ6;1;ُسِ3;ُ5;ْ أَزْ8;َجاً﴾

(And among His signs is this that He created for you wives from among yourselves,) meaning, `He created females of your own kind, to be wives for you.'

﴿4;ِّتَسْ3;ُ6;ُ8;اْ إِ4;َيْ7;َا﴾

(that you may find repose in them,) This is like the Ayah,

﴿7;ُ8;َ ا4;َّذِ9; خَ4;َ2;َ3;ُ5;ْ 5;ِّ6; 6;َّ1;ْسٍ 8;َحِدَةٍ 8;َجَعَ4;َ 5;ِ6;ْ7;َا زَ8;ْجَ7;َا 4;ِيَسْ3;ُ6;َ إِ4;َيْ7;َا﴾

(It is He Who has created you from a single person, and He has created from him his wife, in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her) (7:189). This refers to Hawwa'. Allah created her from Adam, from the short rib on his left. If Allah had made all of Adam's progeny male, and created the females from another kind, such as from Jinn or animals, there would never have been harmony between them and their spouses. There would have been revulsion if the spouses had been from a different kind. Out of Allah's perfect mercy He made their wives from their own kind, and created love and kindness between them. For a man stays with a woman because he loves her, or because he feels compassion towards her if they have a child together, or because she needs him to take care of her, etc.

 =====

So, to my reading, it's simply stating that Male & Female were both created as human beings - and that human men were not made to procreate with other species.

Now, moving on. My take on the issue of rape in islam is that it is a non-issue (Islamically speaking). This is because Islam is a patriarchal religion - and it was created (from my view) by men FOR men. If women are mentioned, it's only to tell them what to do to please the men (or Allah). Since rape is a crime from the woman's point of view (usually the case) then it is not mentioned, and not a crime in Islam.

Furthermore, in an Islamic marriage, rape does not exist. This is because the Mahr (dowry) that the woman accepts from the man when they get married, guarantees the man the full (and exclusive) use of her vagina for the duration of the marriage. This is why, when a man triple talaq's his wife (divorce) she does not have to pay back the Mahr - because he has decided he is "finished with it." If a woman seeks a Khula (divorce that has to be agreed apon by male judges) then she must pay back part/all of the Mahr - she is depriving the man of his right - ie. he did not get 'what he paid for." From the ahadith we can see that Muhammad himself spells out EXACTLY what the purpose of the Mahr is. For example:

=======

 Sahih Muslim Book 009, Number 3557

Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saying to the invokers of curse: Your account is with Allah. One of you must be a liar. You have now no right over this woman. 'He said: Messenger of Allah, what about my wealth (dower that I paid her at the time of marriage)? He said: You have no claim to wealth. If you tell the truth, it (dower) is the recompense for your having had the right to intercourse with her', and if you tell a lie against her, it is still more remote from you than she is. Zuhair said in his narration: Sufyan reported to us on the authority of 'Amr that he had heard Sa'id b Jubair saying: I heard Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) saying that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had said it.

======

There are many more narrations like the one above, please let me know if you would like more. 

But my point in posting that is again, rape does not exist in Islamic marriage, because by accepting the Mahr (dowry) she has already granted the husband full use of her body whenever he wishes. Let us look at Quran 2:223 for further evidence:

Quran 2:223: Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

In the above verse, we see that the woman's consent does not come into the deal at all. Go to YOUR wives WHEN YOU like - not "when you both like" etc...

======

Lastly, I am rather perturbed by your statement that "hurting women is not allowed" (perhaps it was your choice of words?), because I can bring one verse that shows that men ARE allowed to "hurt" their wives. Let us look to Quran 4:34 as evidence:

Quran 4:34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Please pay careful attention to the word "fear" there - it's not that the wife has to actually DO anything wrong - but ONLY that the husband may FEAR she might (paranoia much?). So, if a man FEARS his wife might do something wrong, he can BEAT HER.(the correct word is BEAT and not Scourge)

It should be noted that the Arabic in this text does say wa for the three things you can do, and wa means "and" - although this can be translated as a comma; so it could also read: amonish them, banish them to their beds, beat them. So you don't necessarily have to do all 3 things - it can be multiple (or one) choice. You can go straight to the beating if you wish (and indeed many Muslim men do).

This of course is NOT to say that all Muslim men go around beating their wives (that would be a mass generalization and in error), but if you are the kind of man who would do such a thing, then the Quran ALLOWS you to beat your wife on the SUSPICION she might do something wrong.

So I do not think that the Quran says that you should not hurt your wife, because the above verse alone makes it abundantly clear that you CAN hurt your wives by beating them.

Hey Sanitarium1 impressive posts you got there, welcome to the union.

Post in the atheistic dogma sticky thread so we can know more about your views.:)

Gambler_3

Thanks for the welcome! Shall do :)

recompense for your having had the right to intercourse with her

Wow I wasnt aware that the prophet actually said that. Clearly the mentality of women being a "thing that can be used" is clear here...

Rape is a crime in most Muslim countries. Only places like Saudi Arabia and Somalia punish rape victims (the mere mention of that makes me cringe). Anyway I don't want derail this topic, so let's look at one point you made on the article. I can't post it since it's too big but it's about the Arabic behind the verse:

8;ا4;4;ائي 4;5; يحض6;" 1;عدت7;6; ث4;اثة أش7;ر

I appreciate that you know Arabic and apply your knowledge in these articles. But however, it seems that you misunderstand the  negation in Arabic. You translated this as:

"and those who never had menses"

This is wrong. "Lam" is not used for "never". Laa would be used instead. Examples:

Zayd laa ya'lamu = He doesn't know

Zayd lam ya'lamu = He didin't know

In the first sentence, Zayd is described as not knowing (something in particular). This implies that he never knows (the thing) in the past, present, or future.

In the second sentence, we are told that Zayd didn't know. There is no indication that he never knew, only that he didn't know. 

Laa negates the past, present, and future. While lam only negates the past. Not just the past, but the near past. When you speak Arabic, you use lam as a negation for something in the near past. Example: Suppose I ask someone if they wrote the  essay. If he didn't do it, he could reply "ana lam aktubu almuqaalah". This is the most common use of lam. It's used VERY RARELY for the far past.

You translated it the same way: "and those who didn't have their menses yet". This does NOT imply that those women never menstruated. It only implies that they have yet to menstruate in the near past. 

You translated it the same way: "and those who didn't have their menses yet". This does NOT imply that those women never menstruated. It only implies that they have yet to menstruate in the near past.

ghoklebutter

Are you serious?

I can't see how that would make any difference whatsoever.

Are you serious?

I can't see how that would make any difference whatsoever.

RationalAtheist

There is a difference between:

-A girl who has yet to menstruate in her lifetime, or a child.

and

-A woman who has regular menses but currently isn't menstruating.

Am I right?

Rape is a crime in most Muslim countries. Only places like Saudi Arabia and Somalia punish rape victims (the mere mention of that makes me cringe).

ghoklebutter

No, this is not true. I can't post a link for some reason, but google Pakistan Rape Laws to see. Pakistan requires witnesses to prove rape too. This is because it's Shariah law, and not an 'anomaly' in KSA etc....

 

 

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

"and those who never had menses"

This is wrong. "Lam" is not used for "never". Laa would be used instead. Examples:

Zayd laa ya'lamu = He doesn't know

Zayd lam ya'lamu = He didin't know

In the first sentence, Zayd is described as not knowing (something in particular). This implies that he never knows (the thing) in the past, present, or future.

ghoklebutter

I have given the Arabic analysis in my article, although I appreciate you giving examples here. However I used the Arabic dictionaries to get the Arabic of this verse, and also got the input of native Arabic speakers (Muslims, non-Muslims and Ex-Muslims). Secondly, the translation in the article agrees with what the scholars (all of them) have said about the verse. The verse is talking about those who are too young for menstruation, so those who have never menstruated is the correct translation (as far as I see it).

You translated it the same way: "and those who didn't have their menses yet". This does NOT imply that those women never menstruated. It only implies that they have yet to menstruate in the near past. 

 ghoklebutter

AGAIN, Quran 2:228 ALREADY COVERS those who menstruated in "the near past" - this verse is not about them. Again, 65:4 was clarification for those who do NOT menstruate (menopause, pre-pubescent and pregnant) - it's an addendum to Quran 2:228.

So unfortunately your argument still falls due to Quran 2:228 which was revealed BEFORE 65:4.

Here is Quran 2:228 for everyone:

Quran 2:228: Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

1. Well that's just shameful if you ask me. There is a hadith where a rape victim came to Muhammad and he said "go now, for Allah has pardoned you". Then the women took Muhammad to the perpetrator and he said "the punishment is stoning to death". 

I agree that's very harsh but remember this was in the old times. At least the victim was pardoned since it was an act of violence. Rape usually (not always) happens through anger and aggression; two things Muhammad orded Muslims to control to the best of their ability. 

2. That's very strange people think that "lam" is used for the same purpose as "laa". I'll give another example: the shahada.

Laa ilaaha ila allah = there is no god but Allah

Lam ilaaha ila allah = there was no god but Allah

The second version with lam is pretty much a blasphemy to the Muslims. The laa is used there for a reason because according to Islam, there is no god, whether in the past, present and future, other than Allah. The lam is used not only for negating, but it also  changes the tense unlike laa. 

I respect the scholars opinion but I think they made a mistake here. I don't listen to most commentators and scholars because tend to be biased. Al-Tabari, for example, seem to be sexist and misogynistic in his commentary. And Ibn Ishaq's hadiths are mostly corrupted.

3. I know about that verse (2:228). Thanks for posting it though. This is how I take both verses:

2:228-Self explanitory

65:4-Same thing but clarifies that those who have not menstruated in due time should wait three calendar months.

Yusuf Ali, a great commentator and the most famous translator, agrees with the above. There are other scholars with this view, but this is just an example. The old scholars were obviously in a different time period so they agreed that such marriages were okay. I rarely follow tafsirs too because they are usually biased. But I'm not picky with Hadiths (even though I don't trust most of them) because that's what those apologetics do.

By the way, it's just as annoying to call someone an apologist as it is to call a critic of Islam an Islamophobe. 

@MaxStar: Excellent points thank you!

1. Well that's just shameful if you ask me. There is a hadith where a rape victim came to Muhammad and he said "go now, for Allah has pardoned you". Then the women took Muhammad to the perpetrator and he said "the punishment is stoning to death". 

ghoklebutter

Not quite. The man who raped the woman said he was sorry and Muhammad let him go. If I recall correctly, the narration is in Dawud. Would you like me to hunt it down for you? Yes I agree it is a shameful thing to demand 4 witnesses (male) to prove a rape under Shariah law, but this is how it is in Islam. I am not an expert on hadith science, so I cannot speak to the veracity of the Dawud narration, but I can surmise since it did not supercede the "4 witnesses to prove rape" requirement for Shariah, it was deemed to be doubtful in some way.

 

2. That's very strange people think that "lam" is used for the same purpose as "laa". I'll give another example: the shahada.

ghoklebutter

Well my questoin to you would be; how come all the scholars got it wrong? And all in the exact same way? These are experts in classical Arabic and Islam - why didn't they realize this error?

I respect the scholars opinion but I think they made a mistake here.

ghoklebutter

All of them? Experts in Islam and Arabic? tey all made the same error that you managed to find quickly? That is highly doubtful, don't you think?

I don't listen to most commentators and scholars because tend to be biased. Al-Tabari, for example, seem to be sexist and misogynistic in his commentary. And Ibn Ishaq's hadiths are mostly corrupted.

ghoklebutter

What is your basis for saying Ishaq is 'mostly corrupted'? 

3. I know about that verse (2:228). Thanks for posting it though.

ghoklebutter

Oh no problem; I was posting it for the benefit of others.

This is how I take both verses:

2:228-Self explanitory

65:4-Same thing but clarifies that those who have not menstruated in due time should wait three calendar months.

ghoklebutter

What do you mean 'due time'? The verse is clear and I have explained it for you (both 2:228 & 65:4). If they do not menstruate 'in due time' then they must be pregnant Then their 'iddat is spelled out in 65:4 as "until they drop their burden" (give birth).

Yusuf Ali, a great commentator and the most famous translator, agrees with the above.

ghoklebutter

Ok now you talk about Bias and you expect us to accept Abdullah Yusuf Ali? yusuf Ali is an Islamic apologist who made his Quran translation to be more "palatable" to Western readers - hence the abundance of (bracketed statements) that are not in the original Arabic. He softened up the Quran to fool the Westerners. I'm sorry but you will have to bring someone else if you wish to convince us - I do not trust Yusuf Ali as far as I can throw him.

I rarely follow tafsirs too because they are usually biased. But I'm not picky with Hadiths (even though I don't trust most of them) because that's what those apologetics do.

ghoklebutter

This is not an issue of "what you would follow" - you are free to innovate your religion in any way you so choose! No one here is saying that you personally want to go marry children - this is about what the texts and scholars say and what they don't say. You are free to leave such practices in the past, and that's fine - but that does not mean your Quran does not have this allowance in there, you know?

@Maxstar1

1. You didn't read my post, did you? Translating that verse as "girls who have never menstruated" is not in accordance with Arabic grammar. LAM is used for negating in the past tense. LAA is used for negating every tense. There is a difference and it's clear. Don't you know any Arabic? Aisha is irrelevant right now.

2.  You're wrong. I copied and pasted from another article. I even have the link. But I found out the website is a blind Christian-bashing website, so I declined to post the link. And no, I am not using it as an argument anymore. I didn't read the wikiislam article because I had little time to do so. The article I posted was supposed to be "evidence" against paedophillia in Islam. But I don't really trust the source anymore.

3. I just said it was annoying. I don't call critics of Islam "Islamophobes" since a phobia is an irrational fear while criticism is based on rational deduction of facts. I guess that wasn't necessary for me to post it, though.

4. Irrelevant to this topic. 

5. You didn't quote them out of context. And what's the relevance of my age and grade? Does it really matter? I'm not a cocky Mr. know-it-all but that doesn't mean I'm blind.

Obviously you consider Islam as false because you aren't a Muslim. And no, I don't wish to leave Islam anytime soon. You're entitled to your own opinion, however.

Oh and by the way new users sometimes can't edit their posts.

1. You didn't read my post, did you? Translating that verse as "girls who have never menstruated" is not in accordance with Arabic grammar. LAM is used for negating in the past tense. LAA is used for negating every tense. There is a difference and it's clear. Don't you know any Arabic? Aisha is irrelevant right now.

ghoklebutter

Are you a native Arabic speaker? The reason I ask is because that portion of the article (the Arabic Analysis) was written by native speakers who speak this language every day. Furthermore it is backed by classical Arabic lexicons. Also no native speaker has been able to fault that article yet, so I wish to know if you speak Arabic.

If you do speak Arabic, is it MSA or Classical? Thanks muchly :)

GhokleButter

- You didn't read my post, did you? Translating that verse as "girls who have never menstruated" is not in accordance with Arabic grammar.

Uh, you're no one to ignore the tafsirs of 10 Islamic scholars and challenge their interpretations and put in your own and ignore the deeds of your prophet himself who had sex with 9 year old Aisha, which again - makes him a pedophile.

 - Aisha is irrelevant right now.

Ofcourse she isnt. Muhammad had sex with 9 year old Aisha, did he not? Is that not in ACCORDANCE with what the Quran says? Do Quran verses not have to be understood in context of HADITHS? Ofcourse!

- I copied and pasted from another article. I even have the link.

Ok perhaps my bad but when I searched your post in Google I didnt find any results. Please post the link to prove it was a copy paste

 - I didn't read the wikiislam article because I had little time to do so.

 I hope you dont commit the same mistake again.

- But I don't really trust the source anymore.

Who cares what you trust?You've ignored the tafsirs of 10 Islamic SCHOLARS and inserted in your own arabic interpretation which CONTRADICTS and goes against the interpretation of the Islamic Scholars and the example of Muhammad himself.

- I just said it was annoying. I don't call critics of Islam "Islamophobes" since a phobia is an irrational fear while criticism is based on rational deduction of facts. I guess that wasn't necessary for me to post it, though.

As I said this isnt important enough to talk about.

Not true, I found out now I can do it. I had to hunt for it in the dropdown.

@Sanitarium1

1. I have it right here (pasted from another website; sorry for the colors):

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.  She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).  When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you.  And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.  (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"

He wasn't let go just because he repented. He made taubah mastubah, which is the ultimate (usually optional) form of repentance. He was certainly punished according to this hadith.

2. I don't know, but rules are rules. Maybe I'm misguided but I learned the very rules with negation (lam and laa) when I was studying Arabic. Just because they are great scholars doesn't mean that they are perfect you know. 

3. Pretty much every single scholar and every Imam I asked said that Ibn Ishaq's ahadith are mostly corrupted. 

4. Well I wasn't aware that he did that. I was just giving you an example. I'm not cherry picking scholars, so if I am then I apologize. Muhammad Al-Ghazzali is another scholar who said such about those verses. 

5. I understand that. I appreciate debating with you since you aren't filled with hate and you use logical arguments compared to many other "scholars".