[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="Archangel3371"]Well for me the storyline is indeed the main reason I play and enjoy the Metal Gear Solid games. All the backstory on Ocelot and Big Boss was probably my favourite aspects of MGS3. Sure the gameplay is good in the games but given the huge amount of story and dialog in the games I can see how someone wouldn't want to play the games if they don't like the story.dvader654

I like to think that games have evolved beyond just the simple, visceral fun and adrenaline rush that gameplay provides, and have gone on to flesh out other aspects that are much more engaging, fulfilling, deep, emotional, immersive,and personal.

Without advancements in story and other aspects, we'd likely still be playing pac-man and pong. Literally just games that are purely about the visceral fun of gameplay,rather than the interactive experiences that provoke an emotional response that we have today.

I enjoy that aspect, I am glad gaming is getting better and better as the years go on telling meaningful stories but thats not where I want to see the most advancement. I want gameplay to evolve, to give us experiences we could dream of. More control, more options, larger game worlds, BUT keeping the tradition of fun to play gameplay. When I anticipate a new game I am not thinking about the story, the reason I want it is cause I can't wait to experience the gameplay and yes everything that goes with it. Almost every preview I read I just skip over the plot synopsis cause I really don't care at all, its not important in my decision to buy a game.

Lets take a game like Mass Effect, do I expect it to have a great engrossing storyline, yes I do, do I want the game because of that, nope. I want the game cause it looks like I can explore a huge galaxy at my own whim, go where I want, discover new areas, find new gameplay segments. Since its Bioware I know it will be a great gameplay experience as well as story driven game. Thats how I see it.

I very much look forward to the things you mentioned in Mass Effect, but would your experience not be hampered in the game if the supporting characters on your ship had next to nothing to say? If all the dialogue in the game during the conversations and story archs were horribly acted and cheesily written? Doing nothing but exploring a bunch of environments can entertain for only so long.

I don't think it is I that understimates the importance of gameplay, but you that underestimates the importance of all the other aspects that come together and make a game a truly great one.

But games have been truely great without stories, Mario, old school Zelda, Metroid, Sonic, Mega Man, Castlevania, there is a gigantic list of all time greatest games that have like one paragraph worth of story, did that effect those games, nope. What about Ninja Gaiden, DMC, RE4, and the like now that have crappy storylines, did that stop them from getting all around praise and awards, no.

Of course the type of game dictates how important the story is, a game like Mass Effect relies on the story far more than RE so it is important to the overall quality of the game. I know its important, my issue is where do you place it in the hierachy of what makes a game great. It would not bother me in the slightest if my supporting characters had bad lines to say if what I was playing is gripping and engaging. My value for the gameplay is far higher than any other aspect. What would you rather have a great story and ok gameplay or great gameplay and ok story?

I believe that either of the scenarios you placed in the last line would make for one great game. I think a game that has both great gameplay and story (or atmosphere, or characters, etc.) makes for a phenomenal game.

According to a recent review of Bioshock, it sounds like Bioshock is that game.

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="Archangel3371"]Well for me the storyline is indeed the main reason I play and enjoy the Metal Gear Solid games. All the backstory on Ocelot and Big Boss was probably my favourite aspects of MGS3. Sure the gameplay is good in the games but given the huge amount of story and dialog in the games I can see how someone wouldn't want to play the games if they don't like the story.dvader654

I like to think that games have evolved beyond just the simple, visceral fun and adrenaline rush that gameplay provides, and have gone on to flesh out other aspects that are much more engaging, fulfilling, deep, emotional, immersive,and personal.

Without advancements in story and other aspects, we'd likely still be playing pac-man and pong. Literally just games that are purely about the visceral fun of gameplay,rather than the interactive experiences that provoke an emotional response that we have today.

I enjoy that aspect, I am glad gaming is getting better and better as the years go on telling meaningful stories but thats not where I want to see the most advancement. I want gameplay to evolve, to give us experiences we could dream of. More control, more options, larger game worlds, BUT keeping the tradition of fun to play gameplay. When I anticipate a new game I am not thinking about the story, the reason I want it is cause I can't wait to experience the gameplay and yes everything that goes with it. Almost every preview I read I just skip over the plot synopsis cause I really don't care at all, its not important in my decision to buy a game.

Lets take a game like Mass Effect, do I expect it to have a great engrossing storyline, yes I do, do I want the game because of that, nope. I want the game cause it looks like I can explore a huge galaxy at my own whim, go where I want, discover new areas, find new gameplay segments. Since its Bioware I know it will be a great gameplay experience as well as story driven game. Thats how I see it.

I very much look forward to the things you mentioned in Mass Effect, but would your experience not be hampered in the game if the supporting characters on your ship had next to nothing to say? If all the dialogue in the game during the conversations and story archs were horribly acted and cheesily written? Doing nothing but exploring a bunch of environments can entertain for only so long.

I don't think it is I that understimates the importance of gameplay, but you that underestimates the importance of all the other aspects that come together and make a game a truly great one.

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"]Is this a reply to me? Because I never claimed Haze was receiving an exuberant amount of attention. In fact I very clearly stated that I don't believe it will garner much attention until next year when the X360 release of the game is imminent.SemiMaster

I wouldn't have directly replied to yours in a quote. And I said you were right that it may be underrated, but the fact of the matter is that no one cares about it in the first place except for in System Wars. Rightly or wrongly so, yours was the first mention of this game outside if System Wars I've ever heard, besides maybe in the News column once.

Maybe you want to explain why this should be more highly regarded? Like I said, it right now to me is just another FPS in a huge sea of them, so why should we care even?

I made a post earlier in the thread as to why I believe this game stands out and deserves some more attention.

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="CarnageHeart"][QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="SemiMaster"]

One thing about this game.

Back before E3 when the PS3 was really looking bleak, it had nothing going for it, which isn't the case now, but back then it was. 1) This game came along and Sony fanboys somehow treated it as if it was the second coming of Christ. I for the life of me can't see why, when it's as of right now just another pretty FPS in a sea of a lot of others such as Halo 3, Killzone 2, UT3, Crysis... do you want me to keep going?

Seriously, this game was totally unknown about 3 or so months ago now it's like OMG HAZE!!!!!

SemiMaster

2) A very smart move on Ubisoft's part if you ask me. There is way too much competition on the X360 for this holiday season.

I still don't believe this game will garner the sales or attention the developer's are hoping for until the X360 version is released.

1) I don't hang out in System Wars as much as you clearly do, but this is the first thread about Haze I have seen in GGD in at least a month (there were a few threads after the first few trailers a couple months ago) so I don't really see the basis of your complaint.

2) This holiday the X360 is seeing slightly fewer shooters released than the PS3, but one of those shooters is named Halo 3. I haven't kept track of pre-orders but its a safe bet that there are a ton and a half of them. Most people are going to buy one came in one category, and many people are fixated on 'finishing the fight' even though Halo 2's campaign was forgettable and Halo 3's graphics indicate that MS chose not to spend money on a guaranteed money maker (the only reason Halo 3 is still on my radar is the 4 player co-op which could be incredibly fun).

However, I agree that given the crowded holiday season, I wouldn't be surprise if Haze fares poorly.

2) Is the 360 seeing fewer shooters than the PS3 this holiday? i didn't count, but my gut tells me that is inaccurate.

Sorry man, he's right. This is the FIRST thread I've ever seen in GGD that anyone mentioned Haze. I kid you not. I frequent both System Wars and GGD, and I've NEVER seen Haze mentioned once in this forum until now.

You are very correct in that it may be underrated. But you also need to realize that this game doesn't necessarily need to merit any extraneous attention either...

Well for me the storyline is indeed the main reason I play and enjoy the Metal Gear Solid games. All the backstory on Ocelot and Big Boss was probably my favourite aspects of MGS3. Sure the gameplay is good in the games but given the huge amount of story and dialog in the games I can see how someone wouldn't want to play the games if they don't like the story.Archangel3371

I like to think that games have evolved beyond just the simple, visceral fun and adrenaline rush that gameplay provides, and have gone on to flesh out other aspects that are much more engaging, fulfilling, deep, emotional, immersive,and personal.

Without advancements in story and other aspects, we'd likely still be playing pac-man and pong. Literally just games that are purely about the visceral fun of gameplay,rather than the interactive experiences that provoke an emotional response that we have today.

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="SemiMaster"]

One thing about this game.

Back before E3 when the PS3 was really looking bleak, it had nothing going for it, which isn't the case now, but back then it was. 1) This game came along and Sony fanboys somehow treated it as if it was the second coming of Christ. I for the life of me can't see why, when it's as of right now just another pretty FPS in a sea of a lot of others such as Halo 3, Killzone 2, UT3, Crysis... do you want me to keep going?

Seriously, this game was totally unknown about 3 or so months ago now it's like OMG HAZE!!!!!

CarnageHeart

2) A very smart move on Ubisoft's part if you ask me. There is way too much competition on the X360 for this holiday season.

I still don't believe this game will garner the sales or attention the developer's are hoping for until the X360 version is released.

1) I don't hang out in System Wars as much as you clearly do, but this is the first thread about Haze I have seen in GGD in at least a month (there were a few threads after the first few trailers a couple months ago) so I don't really see the basis of your complaint.

2) This holiday the X360 is seeing slightly fewer shooters released than the PS3, but one of those shooters is named Halo 3. I haven't kept track of pre-orders but its a safe bet that there are a ton and a half of them. Most people are going to buy one came in one category, and many people are fixated on 'finishing the fight' even though Halo 2's campaign was forgettable and Halo 3's graphics indicate that MS chose not to spend money on a guaranteed money maker (the only reason Halo 3 is still on my radar is the 4 player co-op which could be incredibly fun).

However, I agree that given the crowded holiday season, I wouldn't be surprise if Haze fares poorly.

2) Is the 360 seeing fewer shooters than the PS3 this holiday? i didn't count, but my gut tells me that is inaccurate.

[QUOTE="Darth_Tigris"]I understand what you're saying completely. But we all would agree (maybe) that there are many things in life that we do that just don't belong in games.

Eating is part of our every day lives. Bathing is part of our every day lives (well, most of us anyway). Peeing and taking a dump are both parts of our every day lives. Games maturing and becoming more realistic should include all of that, right? I don't wanna play a game that includes all of that. Yes, those are part of our lives, but they're not really game-related fun.UpInFlames

There's an obvious and staggering difference between something as mundane as eating and peeing and whatnot, and a sexual relationship. Even so, there are indeed fun games that include all that - The Sims series.

Sex, yes, is a reality in most adult lives. But I question its place in gaming (especially in any type of detail). I remember playing Golgo 13 for the NES years ago and when you hooked up with a woman they would showthe outside of the hotel window and the light would go off as your health meter rose (kinda backwards if you ask me, but I digress). That felt ... weird to watch in a game, but it was not done in any type of graphic detail. For games to now have sex scenes where they show polygonal nudity feels ... exploitative to me. I've seen the sex scene in Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy online and that looked ridiculous to me. I just don't see its place in gaming to the extent that we're likely to see in Mass Effect.

Then again, maybe it will be completely avoidable...Darth_Tigris

This is where we differ. You want to keep gaming as innocent and surreal as possible...perhaps as a last connection to your childhood, I don't know. On the other hand, I want gaming to grow alongside me and fulfill my needs as an evolving adult. Not every game has to be about alien invasions and orcs and elves - I enjoy those very much, though. I want games that treat me like an adult like all other entertainment media does. I want extreme violence, I want profanity, and I want sex. I want meaningful social commentary, I want characters that feel like real people, and I want those characters to have as deep relationships as possible - both emotional and sexual. Why? Because as a breathing human being, that is what I can relate to, that is what can impact me the most, that is my reality, that is who I am.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"]

[QUOTE="Darth_Tigris"]When you speak of gaming growing up, do you really mean gaming as in watching more adult cinemas in games? That's not GAMING to me. And that's what this is.Darth_Tigris

I'm pretty sure he meant thematically. A game isn't just about gameplay (especially when it's done by BioWare), it's the whole package - gameplay, storyline, graphics, music, sound effects, theme. Horror or crime games are nothing without extreme violence. Likewise, a storyline that wants to delve into human relationships in a serious manner has to deal with sex as it is an integral part of every romantic relationship. If people are genuinely turned off by that, then I honestly have no idea what to say to that.

I understand what you're saying completely. But we all would agree (maybe) that there are many things in life that we do that just don't belong in games.

Eating is part of our every day lives. Bathing is part of our every day lives (well, most of us anyway). Peeing and taking a dump are both parts of our every day lives. Games maturing and becoming more realistic should include all of that, right? I don't wanna play a game that includes all of that. Yes, those are part of our lives, but they're not really game-related fun.

Sex, yes, is a reality in most adult lives. But I question its place in gaming (especially in any type of detail). I remember playing Golgo 13 for the NES years ago and when you hooked up with a woman they would showthe outside of the hotel window and the light would go off as your health meter rose (kinda backwards if you ask me, but I digress). That felt ... weird to watch in a game, but it was not done in any type of graphic detail. For games to now have sex scenes where they show polygonal nudity feels ... exploitative to me. I've seen the sex scene in Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy online and that looked ridiculous to me. I just don't see its place in gaming to the extent that we're likely to see in Mass Effect.

Then again, maybe it will be completely avoidable ...

Also, by the description, there does not appear to be any nudity in this game whatsoever. Does a thong and a breast outline qualify as nudity in the society of your country? Geez, and I thought it was ridiculous enough that a woman's nipple is taboo when a man's nipple is fair game. Sounds like things in your country are taking it to a whole new level.

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

True but all that story means nothing if the game is not good

SemiMaster

That's not always the case...

I've played some horrific games because the story was good. Don't dare presume for everyone.

I enjoy the gameplay mechanics in MGS games. I do not think they are the best, but they are solid enough so that I don't consider them to be absolute torture when waiting for the next cutscene or codec call to appear.

So I guess in that case, you could say I liked a game with so-so gameplay more than another with good gameplay, based solely on it's qualities that are completely seperate from gameplay.

However, if KOTOR had taken the combat to an overboard area that is a level I would personally deem unacceptable (FF, Blue Dragon, JRPG level), then all of the great qualities in that game would not have mattered, because the gameplay would just be too farin the realm of boringfor me to enjoy even the best aspects that game has to offer.

True but all that story means nothing if the game is not good

dvader654