jesus was a wizard (which is supernatural)i-rock-socks

Right...

people talking to burning trees (which is supernatural)i-rock-socks

Moses was talking to God.

jesus rose from the grave = zombie (which is super natural)i-rock-socks

A zombie body is quite different from a resurrection body. I didn't deny there are supernatural events described in the Bible, only that there are ghosts mentioned.

Ok. Let me ask in another way. First God created Light, which he called Day, and then created dark, which he called night. He then created the heavens in the midst of the waters and then created the Earth. Exactly how does current scientific knowledge of how planets and stars are formed not refute the ways the bible states how the Earth was formed?

BumFluff122

First off, the author wasn't writing a scientific narrative here. More importantly, the hebrew word for create here doesn't carry the idea of "manufacturing" with it. It's more about ordering (if you want a source for this, just ask). Also, if you read the whole narrative with an eye for it, you will see the author is more concerned about talking about functions and functionaries, and not the structure of the universe. Thus the first couple of days show that God in creating what we see around us is the one who orders the universe (and therefore its functions).

This is why the author can use language reflective of the ancient world cosmology we know not to be true to communicate this and not be saying the cosmology of the universe is actually like that. He wasn't concerned with communicating about its structure, but functions (like there being waters above the sky which is making the point that God wanted a world where it rained, not that there is actually a water canopy floating in space above the earth). Anyway, regardless of any of this, we still have the evidence for Jesus' resurrection to deal with, which is what Christianity rests on. I would like to discuss this more, but I am willing to discuss science issues some.

Also, based on what I told you, are you still going to say God told the Israelites to not kill in the 10 commandments, yet told told them to kill people at other times?

The only way I could consider christianity to be even slightly rational is if god himself came down, explained and demonstrated how he IS god. Until that day comes, its better to go about your life as if he does not exist, just like you do with the loch ness monster or thor.Free_Marxet

Well He did. 2000 years ago. He called himself Jesus. There is evidence that he did. Interested in dealing with it?

you just said that a guy WITNESSED JESUS' RESURRECTION. you have no evidence that actually happened, talk about blinded by religion.nimatoad2000

However, unlike you, I didn't act like my assertion proved my assertion, and thus the debate was over. I was merely informing you that your impression of Christian belief was wrong (i.e. that they believe because they heard from some else who heard from some one else that Jesus rose from the dead). I have evidence to present, but so far people seem more interested in just mindlessly asserting that Christians believe on the basis of no proof, or they want Jesus in the flesh to personally appear to them (unreasonable, given the evidence we already have and for other reasons).

IF the universe is as old as scientists say it is, how exactly does that offer any support whatsoeever for Christianity? How does that offer support that God made the earth and then the heavens and from there made man as he was?

BumFluff122

I didn't say it did. I gave a reason why those theories you mentioned don't refute the Bible's claims, properly interpreted. You haven't responded to my other points.

or.. wait for it.. he could have just.. LIED ABOUT IT. or no one actually said that at all, and it was just written in the new testament later, which is most likely what actually happened because at first jesus was not thought to be anything more than a mortal man, the new testament written upto about 150 years later, made christ sound heavenly. nice try buddy but. you loose.nimatoad2000

Nope. You've already lost because you think you've demonstrated what you said to be true. If you had read anything else I've said in this thread, you would see that I don't have patience with people making assertions without evidence to back up their claims.

Christinianity iconsists of a small group of different belief systems where some of those beliefs are refuted by scientific data. Examples include Evolution. the evidence for the Big Bang, and much more. And where did I state anything about the devil being in the bible?

BumFluff122

I was talking to Yoweeh there. One thing the Bible teaches is that the universe had a beginning and is not eternal. This is something the Big Bang Theory confirms. Also, the book of Genesis does not teach modern-day creationism. It allows for evolution to be true.

because i dont believe in something, just because someone told me it happened, especially in the case that the people saying that it happened, have no way better than you of knowing. nothing would persuade me, but if you really want to try , you can @#$% #$ @#$%nimatoad2000

The first Christians that told us Jesus rose from the dead did have a better way of knowing than anyone else. They claimed to have seen Jesus after he was risen from the dead, not that they heard he did from some else. Thus, they had first hand knowledge about the truthfulness of Christianity.

God states in his 10 commandments 'thou shalt not kill' does he not? Then he goes and commands others to do it to unbelievers. Also noticed I stated 'so I've been told'.

BumFluff122

No, that is an inaccurate translation. The more accurate rendering of the original hebrew word would be "murder" which of course is immoral killing. Do you honestly think the Israelites were so stupid they would not recognize this contradiction if God had actually said you must not kill?

I might consider being a christian if they believed in other prophets, the theory of progressive revelation, and threw away the cleric system. Just because a man wears a uniform and has studied BS for a few years doesn't make God love them anymore than me. But if that happened, I probably wouldn't convert since my religion already believes in that and much much more.

shakmaster13

Which prophets are you talking about? Christians do believe God progressively revealed Himself. Also, the NT teaches that all believers are priests. Pastors, teachers, and the like do not have a higher status, especially in God's eyes.

God did kill much more people in the old testament than God did though. Satan killed like 10 and God killed thousands. so I've been told.BumFluff122

Want to try and show that the killings God had done were immoral? Or where Satan killed someone?

Nothing would persuade me to become a Christian. I am not a Christian because the authority of christianity comes from the religion created by the Jewish people known as Judaism. If you ever read the entire bible you'd know that it's founded on a murderous tribe of Israelites who use the authority of god to kill those who stand in their way from what god has promised them. The bible says they are the chosen people and have god's authority to do what they will with the land as long as a they follow a certain sect of rules god established for them.

Christianity does not exist without Judaism. Yet, many people set this aside when they adopt Christanity as their friendly global religion. Esentialy, Christanity is a carebear version of the original religion.EMOEVOLUTION

So the fact that Christianity came out of 1st century Judaism disproves it how? Where did God order the Israelites to murder people? Ever heard of the 10 commandments? It kind of states the opposite.

It's more illogical puttign all your faith into some kind of supernatural entity that has not been epistomologically proven to you and to stare scientific data in the face that refutes your personal beliefs (Not saying you do this) and push that scientific data to the side because it argues against those beliefs.BumFluff122

I'm curious about which scientific findings you think refute Christianity.

And everything in it has been disproved by science.Yoweeh

How so?

And the bible says incest and rape are okay so like, yeah. That doesn't really work for me. Oh and the bible never actually says "The devil is bad." Not that I'm a satanist or anything but...

Care to show us where? And what are you trying to get at with your point about what the Bible says about the devil?

R u asking me what kind of proof?bsman00

Yes. Or you could say I'm asking how high the bar is.

You expect me to find archaeological evidence or find a quote from an ancient king that magic doesn't exist? How would I do that exactly? We can't proceed any further in this thought because you clearly believe the bible to be an accurate historical recording of events, when the only reason you believe that is because you follow the religion and because the Bible told you that it was accurate.guynamedbilly

Wrong. It's more of a trickle down effect from Jesus' resurrection, although there are other sources of confirmation for biblical events. Nor do I think the resurrection being mentioned in the NT proves its historicity.

As to the second quote, it's the same problem as the first. People also wrote about wizards and dragons, elves, flying carpets, genies, and mystical sea creatures at the edges of the oceans. I could never base my meaning of existence on something someone just told me about. I'd have to experience it for myself.guynamedbilly

Sorry, but you're ignoring what the author intended to convey in their writings and what the literary genre of a work is. The 4 gospels are in the genre of ancient biography. Therefore, the authors intend to communicate historical events in them. At that point, you can't just assume they're making things up. You have to show that they did.

As for a visual demonstration of Jesus revealing himself being too direct, maybe so but I don't care. I don't understand the logic behind believing in a savior who wants people to love him and whom he wants to save from eternal damnation, but wants to put these little hurdles along the way. It makes no sense in the natural order of things and I am a natural being, so I can't accept that. If he really wanted people to love him and his creation and be saved, why wouldn't he make it as easy as possible for them to do so? And so I guess the counterargument is that we can never know the mind of god and his ways are higher than our ways, to which I say. Ok, not interested then.guynamedbilly

It is easy. He has given us so many good reasons to accept him, and if want to decide to be a Christian, you only have to give your trust and loyalty to Jesus.

I don't want to "believe" in a God... I want to "know" and "experience" God. Which is why I'm such a fan of Vedanta. Instead of saying "we know God exists and you should believe in Him, because if you don't, he'll send you to Hell" it says "we know Brahman exists, and here is how we came to understand how that's possible, just follow these intructions and you should find it too."

Historians still need some kind of objective evidence in order to consider something "historical."foxhound_fox

Also, why you would you then not worship Him?MatrixSamurai27

Because I find the Abrahamic God pompous and self-important. Plus, I should not have to "worship" anything. Also, there is quite a bit of Christian morals/values I highly disagree with.

Well actually Christianity is about knowing God. The one place in the Bible where eternal life is explicitly defined, it is said to be knowing God and Jesus (John 17). Why is he pompous and self-important? Of course, if people really are totally depraved as the Bible teaches, we would expect that we won't actually like the morality and values of God.