I find with Christianity such a possibility of men creating that set of doctrines beliefs, historical circumstances and various other things, and it being totally their imagination, unlikely. But thats just me.

The fall of constantinople, the fourth crusade and the the Christian recapture of Spain.

[The Iliad is a collection of songs attributed to a man who may or may not have existed, which were expanded upon over time until they were eventually written down hundreds of years later. They tell the story of a man who fights in the Trojan War. There is no more religious signifacance to The Iliad than there is in the European fairy tale about a girl who is adopted by The Virgin Mary. Furthermore, few scholars believe The Iliad and The Odyssey were written by the same man. The Oddyssey is thought to be much more recent. The Iliad draws on myths, but is not a religious text itself.harashawn

I never said it was a religious text in the vein of the bible. Only that it would a legitimant text to have a near universal impact like the bible did. Certaintly we see in the early second century, even amongst the Christians Illiad and Oddyssie's importance. Justin martyr would argue from it to convince the romans, as would Augustine make reference to it. So certaintly it was a text of authority and value. i think you are hung up on it not being in the same vein as teh bible. indeed there wasn't exactly a book like the bible before it, a collection of texts which were considered inspired? Of course there wasn't much like in the world in terms of paganism. So when it is asked, what would be in the place of the bible, i think the oddyssy is a valid choice. This is not hard to grasp.

The Epic of Gilgamesh influenced both Christianity and Homer's epics so if we're going strictly by what influenced who it would be that.

Aljosa23

Not really, you might argue that typical the bible writers stole from the epic of gilgamesh thing but thats irrelevent to the current discussion. Was that text known and debated and influential at that period? I don't think it was. The illiad and Oddyssy were. Again this is only hypothetical.

Virgil came 800 years later.

Aljosa23

yes... And? We know that during the roman period afterwards the Illiad and Oddyssy were read and highly regaurded by the intellectuals and this is what I'm refferring to. The later roman period in which the bible would have existed and thus if the influence of Christianity and the bible didn't exist, potentially the illiad and the Oddyssy would have rmained the important texts they were.

lol please. You do know Homer's epics were one of the few that survived, right? The original Epic Cycle which Homer's poems were apart of was considered more influential in those days. The west in particular didn't look favourably towards Homer and considered him a liar because more down to earth depictions of the Trojan War existed and if anything, those would make more sense. Homer only became prominent around Virgil and Cicero's time then later on during the Renaissance and forward into modern days. He wasn't all that famous in his own time.

Aljosa23

I never said he was famous, only that these writings were very much influential in terms of higher education and were very much known to those int he ancient world, especially in the greek east. BUt you realise that by saying he became prominent again at the time of Virgil that it doesn't help you?

No, they are not foundational texts in any way other than being the prototypical epic poem. The Trojan War was a legend in those days and obviously it had some allegorical meanings but spreadng any sort of gospel or message like the Bible wasn't Homer's intentions. The "closest" thing to the Bible in the way we're discussing is the Epic of Gilgamesh or Ovid's Metamorphoses.

Aljosa23

And you don't seem to understand how impactful they were on the ancient world, they were virtually the standard people learned were forced to learn. It is the closest thing to the bible if there would be no bible. especially given the dominance of greek and roman paganism over the other forms of paganism. Although this is only an assumption of guessing games, potentially any text could have had an influence and got status, maybe even the writings of some of the philosophers. But the Illiad and the Oddyssy are reasonable choices for this question.

wut. Neither of those religious texts.

Aljosa23

They were foundational texts taught in the ancient greek and roman world, the educated were pretty much bred reading those texts and knowing them in some capacity. They are not like the bible, i never said, but they are the closest thing to it from that context, and the bible of course appeared and judaic and Christian context, thus if the bible never existed it is quite plausible in a possible world that these might be the closest things to it.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Assuming paganism remained the dominant religion and culture, most probably the Illiad and the Oddyssy.

Pirate700

Really, you don't get it?

You people can't comprehend a world in which paganism might have been dominant and the texts of the Illiad and Oddyssy were basically the closest Pagan type of text to the bible thye had? You guys don't it? You can't concieve of that possible world? Whatever.

Assuming paganism remained the dominant religion and culture, most probably the Illiad and the Oddyssy.