"the U.S. group the Patriots, formerly the world group called the Philosophers"

Actually the Philosophers were taken down when Ocelot lured the man carrying half of the legacy out into the open by threatening a nuclear strike on his base. Ocelot killed him, and took that half of the Legacy, while "the man with the same code name as Null" acquired the other half through political means. Without the Legacy, the Philosophers were finished, and Ocelot and this Mystery Man formed The Patriots. Ocelot said "it's all part of our plan to make the world SHE envisioned a reality". This is in reference to Ocelot's mother The Boss, who was considered a Patriot because she gave her child and her life to her mission. So no, the Philosophers have nothing to do with the Patriots.

Second, because Big Boss was considered the perfect soldier for overcoming all of The Boss' Sons, and the perfect leader for not only carrying the trust of the soldiers over Gene who used mind control and crap to control them, Big Boss was actually a Patriot himself, recruited by Ocelot. Outer Heaven, a world for those who knew battle as the only way to live, formed by Big Boss was meant as The Patriots' means of controlling battles, economies, and conflicts around the world, just as Gene had stated Army's Heaven's purpose was going to be before he was killed by Big Boss.

With that second point, I believe Big Boss never rebelled against the Patriots in the first place, rather his actions and death were the same kind of "defection" the original Boss performed, meant to teach Solid Snake the same strength and values as Naked Snake learned in Snake Eater. Big Boss was old, and he needed a succesor, but based on his experiences with Gene, he probably believed that Solidus, the perfect clone would not be the best succesor, that's why he tested Snake.

Finally, while everyone comes to the conclusion that the Patriots are evil, I think MGS2's ending kind of proved the point that the world needs/needed them for a time. I think Liquid Ocelot's upcoming battle is what changes that. See, with Ocelot being a member of The Patriots for all these years things have worked out and they have managed to control the world well, but now that Liquid has Ocelot's appearance and voice, he presumably has the power to do whatever he wants in the organization, and is using New Outer Heaven to twist the world in his favor...which is why Snake is asked to get rid of him.

I think the analogy is that while the US has in some ways recently been a positive thing for the world, recently with power changing hands, new aggression has made the world less safe...possibly the analogy Kojima is getting at, because in past games Kojima has been a little more pro-Patriot.

Just my thoughts though...

staley6565

I wasn't saying that the Philisophers just changed their name, I was only saying the Patriots are playing the same sort of role the Philosophers once played. But you seem to have some more info on that gap between the two stories since I never played Portable Ops since I don't have a psp, I think those are good thoughts you have. If you have more to add I'd definitely enjoy hearing them. I might have to play portable ops now, lol but I just hate not having actual video cutscenes.

Anyway, thats really new to me that the Outer Heaven was part of the patriots plan, so thats probably the case once again this time. It did seem obvious however that the super soldiers know at some point they are part of the Patriots. The philisophy of the patriots being good or evil will be interesting, and I have a feeling it will be left open to the player to decide once again. My view is that they are more bad than good, so I hope we can confront them this time.

I would recommend playing MGS3 first. If you buy MGS3: Subsistence you can play the original 8 bit games also.

I recommend MGS3 mostly because its the newest edition, so the gameplay is the best so far, but also because its the prequel to all the games in the series. You learn about the cycle of super soldiers being used, you play as Big Boss (snake's father, well Snake is a refined clone of Big Boss) and you have to take down Boss who was the mentor of Big Boss. You learn how one super soldier is required to take down the former in order to become the successor. I just really hope Raiden isn't required to kill off Snake in MGS4, that would really be uncool.

Don't get worked up over the minor character details like Vamp, Olga, etc. All that stuff is interesting for the diehard metal gear fans, they make the story more interesting but not worth dwelling on right now. The major plot devices and the political themes they relate to in real life are what really matter in the games. The real world themes/parallels MGS draws off of are in light blue. In one sentence: its about The Patriots (dubious elite war profiteers), controlling soldiers like Snake to do their bidding, and we've got opposition forces that the soldiers are sent to take down.

Here is the main theme rundown:

We've got the world dominating war profiteers, the U.S. group the Patriots formerly the world group called the Philosophers, a reference to the U.S. being the world superpower today. They claim to be good but they are dubious. They control the world, and they specialize in using war to control people and make money from war for their purposes. In real life they represent the U.S. government and the military industrial complex and U.S. economic hegemony through using our forces for economic imperialism. Iraq and oil conquer is the latest example in real life. Before that we had communism vs capitalism with Russia during the Cold War. The U.S. has conducted so many secret overthrows of governments in our history, for example Iran in the 1950's. Burma, Laos in the 60's. Many south american countries throughout the 70's and 80's. The list is really quite large.

Then we've got the black ops specialist Solid Snake, manipulated by the patriots to do their work and then labelled as a terrorist from being set up by these Patriot forces in the government. He is a part of a cycle of super soldiers that the Patriots use for their purposes. Raiden is next in line. Big Boss and Boss were before Snake. These characters represent how soldiers are merely pawns in never ending power struggles that consume governments and powerful men who control the governments.

Then we've got the opposition to Patriot domination. A quick real world example, Iran in 1979 with the overthrow of the brutal Shah we had installed to do our bidding, so you realize why the leaders in this part of the world oppose America. In the game the opposition to the Patriots includes Big Boss after he rebelled, Ocelot, and Solidus. Big Boss was killed by Snake and Solidus killed by Raiden. That leaves Ocelot. From the prequel MGS3, we know Ocelot was once the liason for the Patriots/Philosophers he was key in securing the microfilm money for them and was playing on all sides. But since MGS1 he had rebelled, in MGS2 he was going after the patriots again, and in MGS4 its been revealed he is setting up Outer Heaven --the rebellion entity named the same as Big Boss's rebellion base in the original 8 bit Metal Gear game. Snake and the usual crew are being sent out to stop Ocelot. Now the question is will snake join the rebellion, carry out his mission, or because he would like neither perhaps kill himself as the E3 06 trailer suggests? Maybe Snake will allow foxdie to kill him.

Whatever finally happens in MGS4, its clear that its going to be the most philisophical and politically oriented Metal Gear game yet. Kojima will leave us with a masterpiece.

I know the stories quite well. Everybody is obsessing over the little details, you just need to understand the big picture and the themes of the games. Yes, there have been plenty of cliffhangers so you get all these little questions, but these are done intentionally to keep the series exciting and keep it going. But MGS4 will wrap a lot of it up (even though Ryan Payton claims they're still keeping some to continue the series, ugh...)

Here is all you need to know. Its clear that snake and his allies and his predecessors are all pawns of the patriots until they rebel. The patriots are the shadowy Illuminati like group. They are war profiteers that create war for money. They once controlled the world and now control the U.S. Its not clear exactly what or who they are today. Though it seems Ocelot is rebelling against them thus the Outer Heaven dummy corp he set up like Big Boss did in the original Metal Gear, and now snake is being ordered by the Patriots to take them down. We'll see what happens, snake will probably have to deal with some philisophical questions about if its right to work for the shadowy rulers that keep the peace through sustained war, or to join the rebellion, or to kill himself and wipe his "meme" as the E3 06 trailer indicated.

Renting, might buy it in 6 months at like $30 off ebay.

I cant bring myself to pay $60 for another madden game.

Socom looks like it'll be half assed.

But I think COD4 is looking really good.

Just wondering what people think about gamersaloon tournaments. What has your overall experience been with them?