Only 150 years ago, nealy everyone believe in Adam and Eve! There are so many interpretations of this book that have spawned conficting religions and sub-religions (under the "christian" or christ believing banner). The Koran is based on the Old Testement. Why bother believing in one interpretation over another, without any evidence either way? Surely its better to establish clear facts instead. Why do you assume there is mystery and layers to be unveiled in the bible? To me, that suggests even more bended interpretations. All these interpretations are tearing the church apart. Views on women priests, gay relationships, other religions and medical progress have divided the churches of christ in the last 25 years - All from the 1 book!

RationalAtheist

My belief is that our brains, in the current evolutionary state, cannot hope to unveil all the mysteries the bible holds. I do, however, believe it is every Chritian's duty to try their best to take as much away from the Holy Bible as they can.

I would not bother trying to disprove things. After all, "disproof" is a logical fallacy. Positive proof is the only acceptable proof within the scientific method. There are many hypotheses regarding the cause of the big bang. One of the more popoular ideas is the expanding/shrinking universe concept. There are also no clear facts about the absence of matter before the creation of our universe. I find it bemusing that the scientific framework that observed, gathered and theorised on the big band theory is accepted by theists. The same framework would find no proof of christianity or any other religious intervention in global development. Why believe in the big bang if you don't trust the way we came to know about it? And if you do trust the scientific method for discovery, why have faith in god?

All "who/what started the big bang?" questions have their opposite "who/what created god" counterparts. The difference is, I can experience and quantify the universe - it conforms to physical laws.

RationalAthiest

Again, simply my view, God is infinate. No rocks, gasses, electrical charges, or anything material is infinate.

There is and has been terrible crueltyn in this world. Some of it caused by man and some caused by nature. This indiscriminate cruelty suggests there isn't (and never has been) any controlling force. Why would people want to worship and vengeful god? Free will, if given to us by god, would surely either be perfect, or god would know (presumably being both omnipotent and omniscient) what would happen and what a mess we would make. This must make god either vengeful or non-interventionist. Another reason not to believe!

RationalAthiest

So the only acceptable way to believe is if God loves everything and everyone, and would never let harm come to a single person? Read the Old Testament, familiarize yourself with Free Will.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

RationalAtheist

What made you realise that?

I realized this when I came to terms with evolution. Saying that God's mind is on our level is rediculous, we still have a LOT of evolving to do. If God is on our level at this evolutionary state, that's saying that our minds will surpass God's in a few thousand years.

It sounds arrogant to me that you can state that god has superior reasoning to humans, despite the terrible mess gods creation has gotten into (in your eyes) and how god seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it.

Again, RationalAthiest you're ignoring my MANY posts, including the first post I made in this thread. Go to the very post, read my chapter on "Free Will," God didn't get into this mess we did.

Perhaps god enjoys puzzles?

Perhaps.

[QUOTE="AGSUser12"][QUOTE="g-unit248"]nope, you are just ignorant to the statistics about homosexuals and drug users having higher rates of HIV and AIDSrudyroundhead

Your response is flawed since blacks are already included in a portion of the homosexual and drug user community. the stuff you posted wasn't about race it directly addressed homosexuals, bisexuals, and drug users.

You should be concerned about your partner no matter what they are since any kind of unprotected sex puts you at risk.

The majority of AIDS originate from Africa. You can be a carrier from your ancestors and never have the symptoms yourself. Therefore, yes, blacks are more dangerous sexual partner than whites. WHY is this racist? This world is insane, that is simply looking at the facts and being careful.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

You have a valid point, however, it is inevitable that asome of theinformation is lost in translation due to the time spans between many of the events and their eventual notation. The New Testament for example was written some 200 years after Jesus died, so it cannot be 100% accurate, especially in a time when records were not great. So to an extent the idea that "all things made man are faulty" would be true. Some of the stories within the stories are evident and easily interpreted, but the more complex ones could just as easily be a lack of communication or a loss of data over the years as they are God being complex.

comp_atkins

A large chunk of the New Testament was written while Jesus was alive, considering they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and so on- his disciples.

Also, as for translation errors, (excuse me if this seems like I'm reaching), but God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps these errors were meant to be, eventually giving us the true, big picture?

actually i think the earliest gospel was written an estimated 40-60 years after jesus's death.. i forget where i read that but you can look it up on your own.

as to the underlined.. thats a cop out. something seems illogical to us? well, god works in mysterious ways...

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

Good post, but I would like it if you cleared a few things up.Are you trying to say we do have free will? Or are you open to the possibility that Free Will does not exist and it is only an illusion? Because as far as I know, Free Will is not proven to actually exist, and it could very well be a creationof man to give life meaning by giving man the power of choice... What if we do have a destiny?DrinkDuff

Yes, there could be fate. I simply don't choose to believe that (selfishly) because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my own life. Also, if fate (or destiny) exists, it is too hard to imagine someone like Jeffery Dahmer being destined to be a murderer and later killed in jail with excersise equipment, or someone born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome because it's fate. Also, it seems fate is too easy of a scapegoat to use for wrongdoings. It seems like one could say "Well, it's not my fault. It must be destiny that I killed this man." Again, just my view, nothing factual to back it.

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]

[QUOTE="g-unit248"]nope, you are just ignorant to the statistics about homosexuals and drug users having higher rates of HIV and AIDSJaks_Secret

Exactly. Look at condomns for example. Heteros use condomns to prevent pregnancy and STDs. Now, with homosexuality, there is less of a reason to use a condom. If thats not convincing enough, then consider that condoms DO break under ... normal usage. Now imagine a condom being used in.. the unnature entry. Not only does the chance of the condom breaking increase, but the chance of other kinds of 'tearing' increase.

It's just how things work.

I don't know if this has been stated already, but wearing a condomn doesn't keep you from spreading the HIV virus. In fact, it doesn't protect against any sexually transmitted disease. That's why there's such a high amount of adults with genital herpes.

Yes, it does. Not 100%, but it provides plenty of protection. For an STD, there much be an exchange of bodily fluids. The condom prevents that from happening.

* and the reason there are so many adults with genital herpes is because most adults are stupid and don't use condoms

Wrong again - there are many homosexuals accepted as Catholics.

No, it hasn't grown irrelevent, because homosexuals don't chose to be homosexuals, this is a fact accepted by every major psychological organization in the country and in every 1st world country. You're arguments against homosexuals being allowed to adopt relies on them not being able to chose their homosexuality, since technically everyone is born asexual.

The_Ish

I've been Catholic my entire life, homosexuals are excommunicated from the Church. Again, there is evidence leaning to support that the idea that homosexuals are born that way, but it is not fact. If you want to keep up your side of the argument, about this being FACT, send a link to your source.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="espoac"]

The way Christians put free will up on a pedestal is perplexing to me. By giving us free will God is risking a life of eternal damnation for many of his creations. It's like giving a chocolate bar laced with cyanide to a 4 year old. Even if you tell the 4 year old the chocolate is laced with cyanide, more often than not they'll eat the chocolate. Why? Because they probably don't know what cyanide is. Even if they are told very clearly what the poison will do to them ,say through a parental source, they may still take a bite of the chocolate because they either don't believe the deadliness of cyanide or they believe the parental source is making it all up-because let's face it, the chocolate bar looks normal and the 4 year old's never seen anybody be affected by cyanide.

This metaphor comparing the kid and the candy to humans and the choice of embracing God or going to hell clearly illustrates why free will is not a suitable system for an all-knowing, loving god to implement.

Also, why is it that we think we need free will? Are we are using our own capacity of free will to decide that free will is favorable or are we simply trying to be happy with what we think we have? Why is free will superior to anything else?

How could a perfect, all-knowing, all loving deity have made and implemented such an ill conceived system ?

This brings us to one of two conclusions, either this deity is all-knowing but not all loving and wants some of us to suffer or this deity is loving but just dumb and short sighted. Neither of these figures fit what is described in the Bible or any other religious text that I know of.

espoac

Without Free Will, we would be robots in no control of our actions. Our Free Will is a test to get to heaven. We know the 10 Commandements, they're pretty simple and to the point. Do what's right, go to heaven. Do wrong, go to hell. We're free to choose.

See, even with our free will our perceptions are still dependant on God because we make our decisions based on the enviroment and situations that he has either directly created or set in motion. Given that a lot of us obviously think free will is favorable to being robots "in no control of our actions". However if God was controlling us like robots we would autmotacially be happy (genuinely), and we'd all go to heaven.

There really is no point to free will. It is worse than omnipotent control in every respect.

If we were to be controlled by God, then what would be the point of life itself? Why be born at all? Why not just skip the middle ground and send us strait to heaven? Life is a test, where we are given guidelines and then faces with temptations and challenges. An eternity of paradise is for those who earn it. (again, in my personal opinion, don't expect me to link you to any articles lol)

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="The_Ish"][QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

You do have a strong point, but let's face facts, the country moves slowly when it comes to acceptance. This is the first presidential race that we're seeing a woman with a possibility of making it, we're still (even in these forums) getting over racism, and so on. I see it happening within the next few generations, but not now. My only stance is that they should NEVER be allowed to partake in the sacrament of marriage, meaning through the Catholic Church.

Then they should have the right to obtain the same benifits as married couples.

However, adopting kids is another story. Until it is proven that you are born a homosexual,

There is a lot of evidence for that. Hell, even SilverDrag- I mean Dracargan *cough* keeps throwing out links that support that, despie his negative stance on homosexuality.

I don't think that it should be allowed. For the first 18-25 years of your life, your greatest influence is your parents. This wouldn't be fair to raise a child with homosexual tendencies in today's world simply because he got it from his parents. Maybe in a more accepting world, this would be fine, but to put a child through that kind of persecution? It would be wrong.

That is the most ignorant, poorly thought excuse anyone can come up with. Kids are homosexual because their parents are? Then how do you explain kids who have been brought up in very heterosexual and normal enviornments - and turn out to be homosexuals? Not to mention that there are hundreds of studies that have proven that homosexual tendencies in kids raised by homosexuals are at the same level as kids raised by heterosexual parents, except that the kids raised by homosexual parents have shown to be better students and more emotionally stable than kids in heterosexual families.

The_Ish

As for your first rebuttal, they CAN have the same benefits, just not through a Catholic Church. Read the chapter, "Deutoronomy" in the old testament, it condemns homosexuals for their practices.

But the don't get the same benfifits.

For your second rebuttal, I will acknowledge the fact that there is quite a bit of evidence backing up that theory, but it's still not a fact.

Still irrelevent, since homosexuals don't chose to be homosexuals.

And for your last rebuttal: You're missing my point completely. First off, there is no need to be insulting, I have been very respectful throughout this thread. The idea that children will display homosexual tendencies stems from the fact that there is no proof yet that a child is born homosexual. When I say it wouldn't be fair, I'm talking about in today's world. Our generation of racists, sexists, and gay-bashers. In a few generations, homosexuals will be accepted as equals in every facit of life, and when that time comes (or if it's a proven fact that children are born homosexual) then adopting should be fine.

See above.

For your first comment: there are no additional benefits of getting married through the Church, unless you are Catholic and believe in the holy sacrament of marriage- if you're homosexual you can't be Catholic, like I said, read Deutoronomy.

Your argument is growing weaker and weaker. "Irrelevant"? It's not a scientific fact that homosexuals are born with those tendencies. Very relevent.

And your last comment, 'see above?' Hm.. ??????