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Sleepwalk7

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#1 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts

[QUOTE="Sleepwalk7"]Before I respond to BrokenRabbit, let me just point out that all he did was copy and paste responses from an atheist/secularist Wiki called Iron Chariots which is edited and run by basement dwellers, while I've been using information from actual philosophers and physicists. This also demonstrates that BrokenRabbit ran out of steam long ago.br0kenrabbit

First of all, I never said those were my statements, and infact italized the text to indicate that I was quoting from elsewhere. I had originally included a link that aparently got edited out when I was correcting the formatting.

Secondly, I refuse to waste time in your circular argument by paraphrasing that which has already been stated, especially considering the early AM hour I posted.

And third, your argument comes down to "There's no empiracal evidence either way". Un-hunh.

Finally, you really should read the link I provided previously. It's obvious you have not done so.

Translation: I'll ignore your refutations and claim that you never read a link that I gave, even though the link was garbage anyway. The arguments in the OP do use empirical evidence. Evidence like the universe had a beginning and is fine-tuned for life.
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#2 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts

Who gives a fck, then let it be an immaterial supernatural blahblah cat.

How could that which is formless and possesses no matter or energy resemble a cat?

See, you're just tacking on even more arbitrary conditions.

No, they're inferences from the existence and knowledge of the universe. Obviously the cause of the natural world would have to possess enough power to create the universe. Obviously the cause of the natural world would need to be something not of the natural world, or there would be a logical contradiction.

You're literally creating a being that must be sentient even though you have no proof that sentience is required to create a universe

The first cause would have existed in a timeless or changeless state and possesses no moving parts or any internal processes. In order for such a being to act, it would need agency. Otherwise, nothing would have happened. Or there would have been an eternal effect. The universe is 13.7 billion years old though so the effect is in fact not eternal. God rested or ceased to create on the seventh day.

which contradicts your earlier statement that anything that exists has an origin.

No, I wrote that whatever begins to exist has a cause. God never began to exist. He has always existed. Moreover, a first cause couldn't have a cause itself or else it wouldn't be a first cause; and a first cause would need to be necessary (cannot fail to exist) or you'll run into the problem you're talking about. There is an alternative explanation though. That there wasn't a first cause. That the universe came into being, uncaused, from nonbeing. But that's patently absurd, isn't it?

You feel that objective moral values exist yet you demand evidence that they do not?

No, I'm saying that it would seem that I can detect objective moral values. When I wonder if torturing and killing babies is really wrong and not just an opinion, it seems to me that it is really wrong. That it is objectively wrong like 2 + 2 = 93. And I have no reason to go against that feeling. In the same way, I feel the external world is real; and I have no good reason to go against that feelings either.

Also, I believe that torturing and killing babies is wrong and that we should enforce rules against it, but that doesn't mean that I think this belief has to be ingrained in the laws of the universe to be valid.

Valid in what way? You would have to define that. If objective moral values do not exist, then somebody could just as easily say killing babies is good. Everything is permittable. How would you argue against somebody who told you they thought killing babies was a good thing?

Human society discourages it because it finds such behaviour to be harmful

Human society in the united states and in other countries once encouraged slavery. Surely, that didn't mean slavery was good, correct?

You do not have to prove the existence of the "external world" for any reason - if someone does not believe it to be real, then from their perspective there are no external entities to prove this to and they have nothing to validate.

I never said you had too. And you're just reinforcing my point. Most people feel the external world is real. It is a feeling which isn't dependent on any empirical evidence. In this same way I feel objective moral values exist.

If "objective moral values" are divorced entirely from the belief or interests of any group that could enforce them, then they are functionally irrelevant and might as well be nonexistent.

I don't think objective moral values are completely divorced from people. There is moral epistemology and moral ontology. I believe God serves as a ontological foundation for morality and that we come to know of this ontological foundation through the way in which God formed our brains. Then we start enforcing these moral rules through human laws and such.

The reason the vast majority of humans feel/believe killing babies to be wrong is simple, the protection of our offspring is biologically programmed into us because if we did not have it we would have died out long ago.

Let's say that is indeed the only reason. Under this world view, what this would mean is it is a "good move" or "logical move" to not killing babies because you'd "lose the game," as though we were playing a game of chess.

I understand perfectly well how deductive arguments generate conclusions, you on the other hand have clearly skipped the "proving that the premises of the argument are true in the first place" step. And don't try and backtrack here, your second premise was not the design is the best explanation and your conclusion is not that design is plausible. Your second premise was that the other explanations are false and that therefore design is true.

What I'm saying is a stated several arguments. If you think any of the premises in the deductive arguments are false, then say so and why. Then I'll explain to you why I think they are true.

Also, the mere occurence of a low-probability event does not imply that the event was generated by an outside force deliberately creating a bias. You will have to prove that the number of low-probability events occuring for a given number of trials is far in excess of the expected number of events that you would have in an unbiased distribution. Nobody knows how many life-bearing universes have been generated (number of events), how many times a life-bearing universe could have been generated (number of trials) or the probability of a life-bearing universe being generated, ergo we cannot deduce a conclusion.

As far as we know, to the best of our knowledge, there is only one universe. And as far as we know, to the best of our knowledge, there are trillions of different ways the universe could have turned out, but it instead formed into a life-permitting universe. This isn't stuff I'm making up. This is what people like Luke Barnes, Alexander Vilenkin, Stephen Hawking, and Paul Davies have been saying for years. This isn't anything new.

Except that the Judeo-Christian God is merely one example of a "maximally great being" and there is no reason to think that your original arguments, even if they were valid, prove the existence of this particular entity with its particular set of morals.

That is true. The arguments that I listed don't demonstrate the existence of a Christian God. But there are other arguments to show that the God I'm talking about in the OP is the Christian God.

Also, since we're just making up arbitrary rules, the Judeo-Christian God is "immaterial and doesn't use energy" meaning it does not interact with matter and doesn't do work

It doesn't follow that an immaterial being wouldn't be able to form or interact with matter.
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#3 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts
[QUOTE="JohnF111"]"Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence" Then explain Gods existence? /thread.

You're not even trying. Let's look at the entire premise, shall we? "1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause." God's explanation would be "in the necessity of His own nature." God would be a necessary being, as opposed to a contingent being. He'd be a being that has always existed and cannot fail to exist. Asking why God exists would be like asking why does 2 + 2 = 4.
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#4 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts
Before I respond to BrokenRabbit, let me just point out that all he did was copy and paste responses from an atheist/secularist Wiki called Iron Chariots which is edited and run by basement dwellers, while I've been using information from actual philosophers and physicists. This also demonstrates that BrokenRabbit ran out of steam long ago. He has nothing more to offer between the ears, so he's forced to copy and paste others work without giving them credit. Without further adieu, I've read BrokeRabbit copy-pasta and I'm going to comment on only the points that matter. The rest is either irrelevant or gibberish. And why should that surprise anyone? The Wiki is run by basement dwellers. Some of these people may have never even finished high school.
be to state that there is some unknown natural phenomenon to explain this apparent "fine tuning".br0kenrabbit
This is basically assuming that naturalism is true: that only matter and energy exists. Unfortunately it is impossible to support such a conclusion with science alone since science is a methodology that by definition cannot deal with what is beyond the natural world. Let's say that God does indeed exist. Science wouldn't be able to directly detect Him since He'd be something apart from the world (in fact, SUPERnatural). He is above or unlike the natural world. God is the creator and the natural world is His creation. However, one could use scientific evidence to create an argument with theological and philosophical significance, like the teleological argument that I outlined in my original post. No, God wouldn't be a scientific conclusion, but that is irrelevant unless you believe that science is the only road to truth or that there isn't anything beyond the natural world. When I look at science, I'm given no reason to believe there isn't anything beyond the natural world, since science can only deal with the natural world. Evidence for some new natural law within the universe isn't evidence that there isn't something beyond the universe altogether.

the anthropic principle is also a counter-argument to fine-tuning.

Wrong. The anthropic principle states that biological life can only observe a life-permitting universe, because they wouldn't exist to observe it if their universe weren't life-permitting. But that does absolutely nothing to explain away the improbability of the life-permitting universe.

A problem arises from the premise that the cosmological constants are in fact 'fine tuned' at all. This premise assumes that there is a certain range of values that each constant could assume. The greater these ranges, the more unlikely that a given set of constants would have assumed the values we observe. However, to simply imagine a certain range of possible numerical values that each constant could assume and calculating the probability that this value would be arrived at by mere chance is fallacious for two reasons.

Let me start off by saying that this idea of the cosmological constants and our universe being improbable isn't anything new in science and, in fact, most physicists agree that life-permitting universes are very rare. That's not to say there aren't physicists on the fringe who disagree, and perhaps those physicists are right, but if you're going to go by the best scientific evidence, then you can't run away from fine-tuning. You're going to have to explain it. Indeed, physicists have come up with the multiverse hypothesis to try and explain away the improbability. Unfortunately, there isn't any evidence that there is even one other universe, let alone an infinite number, but people like BrokenRabbit don't actually care about reason and evidence because they possess a confirmation bias. Rabbit is willing to latch on to the speculation that there may be an actually infinite number of unobservable universes out there to escape God. Isn't that a bit strange? Perhaps the multiverse hypothesis will eventually bring forth fruit, and I have no issue with the hypothesis per se, but I'm amused that some atheists will latch on to anything attached to science, even if there isn't any empirical evidence for it, just to escape God--who they disbelieve because there isn't any empirical evidence.

Another flaw with this argument is that it assumes our universe is finely tuned for the sole purpose of supporting life.

Well this is nothing more than a strawman. My argument, put simply, is that life-permitting universes are highly improbable and what better explains it? That we just so happened to pull the winning ticket on the first try out of trillions upon trillions of losing tickets? Or was the game rigged in our favor from the beginning?

If there were a creator who "fine tuned" the universe for our existence, who "fine tuned" the universe in order for said creator to exist?

/facepalm. When philosophers talk about God, they typically mean a being who is necessary (cannot fail to exist), immaterial, timeless, omniscient, omnipotent, all-good, and omnipresent. A perfect being, in other words. He is also defined as the creator of all reality outside Himself, which means He existed prior to the natural world. So God existed prior to the natural world and He isn't made up of the same stuff the natural world is. As you can see, the question above has become meaningless.

Therefore any properties deemed to require a designer can't be necessary for existence in the first place, as the designer can exist without them. The argument is self-refuting.

No, because when physicists talk about life-permitting universes, they're talking about biological life, not God. God wouldn't be a biological lifeform.

What is the chance that a truly omnipotent God, as proposed by many religions, made the constants, factors and general details of the universe as he did? he would have infinite possibilities meaning the probability would be 1 in infinity

This isn't even an argument. A being having a number of choices to select, and then selecting one isn't a problem. In fact, we do this all the time. "Should I go to the movies today? Should I grab a soda from that 7/11?" The problem arises when you have a great number of "choices" and let's say there are only a few "correct choices." However, there isn't any mind weighing and sifting through each choice. Instead, the choice is randomly selected and low and behold, you selected the correct choice. That's what chance is. An omniscient being thinking about how He's going to create a world requires zero chance because he possesses agency.

The argument also seems to call into question the omnipotence of the creator. If he were infinitely powerful, why did he make life constrained to survive only in a tiny fraction of the universe?

An interesting question, but the questioner here asks it while assuming a number of things. He/she assumes that if God existed, He'd resemble some sort of cold scientist or mathematician whose goal is to create a perfect and efficient habitat for human life. I don't share that assumption. It may that God thought it more beautiful to create this magnificent universe, but only have a small part of it develop biological life who would obtain sentience. Or maybe he thought by doing this we would realize that, here in the natural world at least, we're alone. And once we realize that, we would become more susceptible to thinking outside the box--or looking for signs pointing to something beyond the natural world. We could go on and on.

When considering the arguments fourth premise, which includes "...created out of nothing by a single being who is omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving, eternal...", the question must be raised of how does the God being posited as the creator of said universe gain the attributes stated by the argument?

You get it from conceptually analyzing what the first cause would need to be in order to create the natural world. For instance, obviously, the creator--whatever it is--of the natural world couldn't be more of the natural world. That would be a contradiction.
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#5 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts

"Because one man says so" isn't a consensus.br0kenrabbit

No, it's one renowned scientist, Paul Davies, versus you, a basement dweller. Then there is Luke Barnes and Alexander Vilenkin too. I could go on. Stephen Hawking is another.

And you apparently don't understand what "any given card" means.

You wrote, "It's 'improbable' that you're going to pull any given card from a deck of 52, but a card will be pulled, nonetheless." The latter part of this statement is foolish. Of course if one drew a card from a deck of 52, a card would be drawn. Derp. But that's not the issue. The issue would be if you had trillions of distinct cards with only a handful of them with bent corners, what are your chances of blindly and randomly picking a card with a bent corner from a collection of these trillions of cards? What's funny is the probability of a life-permitting universe is even lower than this...

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#6 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts
Don't for a second think that the opinion of a few means a consensus has been reachedbr0kenrabbit
Actually, a consensus has been reached according to Paul Davies. I'll take his opinion over yours. Thanks.

It's 'improbable' that you're going to pull any given card from a deck of 52, but a card will be pulled, nonetheless.

I don't think you understand how probabilities work. There's nothing improbable about pulling "any given card" out of a deck of cards. A better analogy would be this one. You have a basket filled with trillions and trillions of black balls, which represent life prohibiting universes, and only a handful of white balls that represent life-permitting universes. Now you mix up the balls, blind fold yourself, and randomly draw once. You wouldn't be surprised if you drew a white ball?
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#7 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts
There are an infinite number of alternative explanations that have an equally strong base as yours, because your assumption has no base at all.Barbariser
Then do so...

I could just say that "the universe was created by the fart of an undetectable ginormous cat"

That doesn't make any sense though since the cat would need to be immaterial, supernatural, or transcendental in order to exist prior to the existence of the natural world (all space, energy, and matter). But a cat would be made up of matter.

You haven't even defined "God" or how he explains the creation of the universe

God would represent an immaterial first cause that possesses at least enough power and intelligence to create a universe such as ours. And possess the agency required to act in a timeless state.

Incorrect, we do not know if objective moral values exist and nobody has proven that they do, so until you provide proof that they do exist you cannot assume that they are true.

I assume, a priori, that objective moral values exist because I feel that they do. What I mean by this is I can't convince myself to say something like, "torturing and killing babies isn't really wrong." Most people, including you I bet, will run into the same trouble. And since I have no overwhelming defeater for this intuition, feeling, or whatever you want to call it, then why abandon it? After all, I also feel that the external world is real, but I have no way of showing that this feeling is true through empirical evidence.

Also, you haven't defined what "objective moral values"

You could have just Googled it. But objective moral values are values that exist irrespective of human opinion or beliefs. For example, it would be true that torturing and killing babies is wrong, even if 100% of the human population thought differently.

You idiot, you cannot make a claim like "something cannot be caused by X, so it was caused by Y" and then demand that other people prove that something was caused by X.

Again, many of you don't seem to understand how deductive arguments work. The first premise of the argument shows the possible explanations for the fine-tuning of the universe. The second premise states that design is the best explanation. Why is design the best explanation you ask? Because according to physicists the odds of life-permitting universe coming into existence, arbitrarily, are astronomically low and these life-permitting features are most likely not fundamental to the laws of physics. Once you understand that then the idea that our universe was designed and not a mistake becomes plausible.

Not to mention that you clearly missed out the fact that the universe being fine-tuned is itself a baseless assumption that you have not proven.

No, I cited evidence.

Energy is finite and therefore it is impossible for an omnipotent being to exist as they would require infinite energy.

The Judeo-Christian God is spirit or mind. He's immaterial. He doesn't use energy and isn't made up of matter.
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#8 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts
There's no evidence that the way our universe has played out isn't just simply what happens when matter forms.br0kenrabbit
No, physicists, like Alexander Vilenkin have thought about the possibility that the building blocks for life are necessary and fundamental to the natural laws that govern the universe, but they remain unconvinced.
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#9 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts

1. Socks come in pairs, or sets of pairs.br0kenrabbit

Socks don't necessarily have to come in pairs. There could be a manufacturer defect, or a person could just make one sock.

If two socks go in the drier, two socks should come out.

Again, not necessarily. One of the socks could get lost in the dryer, or a person could just take out one sock and leave the other inside.

4. Therefore, Elvis.

I wouldn't even call what you did a strawman, because it's so bad. Typically, strawmen are somewhat close to the real thing. Here you just went full retard.

We know of one universe, and that one universe supports life.

Yes.

We have no evidence of other universes.

Yes.

Therefore, the probability that a universe could support life is actual...meaning 100%.

/facepalm... Again, let me remind you that you're ignoring what the majority of physicists say, which is ironic. You're ignoring the best contemporary scientific evidence to avoid an argument for the existence of God. That being said, when physicists say our universe is improbable, what they mean is the cosmological constants that facilitate our universe could have been different. And that the range that the cosmological constants would need to fall into for a life-permitting universes is astronomically small. Yet, that's what happened. Some physicists have tried to explain this improbability way with things like the multiverse hypothesis.

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#10 Sleepwalk7
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts

[QUOTE="Sleepwalk7"] I'll try not to lower myself to your level by insulting you back... But these arguments that I've listed in the OP are logically sound arguments. I don't think you understand how deductive arguments work. I'd go into more detail, but I can't since all you do is insult and cry. Instead of hurling insults and beating your chest, maybe you should explain how these arguments are invalid.Guybrush_3

It has been explained to you. You just don't understand it. You don't understand how assumptions work (hint, assumptions can't be baseless and meaningful, and that's what you are trying to do) you don't understand basic logic. I'm done.

I could just as easily say the same. However, I've actually defended my position while all you've done is posture. Feel free to come at me, bro.