Living in Europe myself (Sweden) I am alsways curious where people get their figures for the whole of Europe. It's not one big country and there are not reliable companies (like NDP) that provided sales figures.

Some parts are very pro-Sony (Spain,France), others seem to favour the 360 (for instance UK). I have no clue how Sweden is although the 360 versions of games always outsell the PS3 versions here and the 360 has a high profile here (I know a few people in stores that sell consoles and the 360 sells very well - says nothing about the whole country though).

Thing is - it's very hard to accurately judge how the fight in Europe is going and even more importantly - since Europe consists of a lot of countries - it varies from country to country.

And in the end - who bloody cares? Right now all consoles are winners. PS3 is starting to sell better after the price drop and probably will overtake the 360 some day as it has a whole extra territory to sell in (as the 360 simply isn't selling in Japan). The 360 is doing well and will undoubtely surpass the Xbox marketshare which means it's a big improvement and the Wii is dominating.

/B

As an owner of all three systems (Wii/PS3/360) I definitely say Live. PSN is getting better but right now it is lightyears behind Live IMHO.

I just find everything much more integrated on the 360 in XBL.

* I can (and often do) chat with my friends while we are playing different games.
* I can send Messenger PM's directly from my 360.
* I know that voice support is built-in in every game
* Achievements are a fun way to add replayability to games as it gives you an incentive to try to get them all

PSN still feels unfinished when it comes to how to handle frineds/invites/chat etc. True, they might fix it but as I think XBL already makes it perfect they merely will be able to match what XBl already does well.

The Marketplace is in my view much better than PSN Store. In fact, PSN store is horrible. It's slow and clumsy. Who came up with the idea to make it feel like you are surfing on a webpage movng a cursor with the controller? I much more prefer the Marketplace as it feels designed for a controller. It's not perfect though.

The content in the Marketplace still surpasses what PSN can offer, even withouth the video content (not out in Sweden).

As for the maturity of players on PSN/XBL. I play quite a lot from time to time (COD4 has been my main game lately) and I rarely have a problem with immature players. I also have a quite large friendslist so I often jump over to friends games where I know I can get a great experience.

The 50$ it costs is totally worth it for me. SOme in this thread are really dense when you accuse us who like XBL more to have to defend it as we pay for it. That's pure BS. 50$ a year is peanuts for me. I rather pay a little fee and get a great experience than pay nothing and get an ok experience. I respect people who choose differently but expect the same respect back.

As for HOME .... lets wait until it is released before using it as an argument for PSN's superiority. I personally see no realy interesting in a Sim-like 3D enviroment. I want a clean and good GUI and good features. Having a room with "virtual" throphys where you can "buy" stuff for the room, that's not exactly what I think is vital for a good online service. I've been using 3D-chats (and Second Life) for many years and to me it feels more like window dressing than something worthwile. I can be wrong though so I will wait with judgement until it is released.

/B

Europe definitely isn't a homogenous market though so it is different country for country. Just checked the charts for Sweden (neighbour to Norway) and here the 360 versions of games outsell the PS3 versions. Same goes for UK. This for example was the chart for week 47 in the UK:

1. Assassin's Creed / Xbox 360 / Ubisoft (1)
2. Super Mario Galaxy / Wii / Nintendo (3)
3. Mass Effect / Xbox 360 / Microsoft (ny)
4. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare / Xbox 360 / Activision (2)
5. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games / Wii / Sega (ny)
6. Assassin's Creed / PS3 / Ubisoft (4)
7. Brain Training: How old is your brain? / DS / Nintendo (6)
8. Need for Speed: Pro Street / Xbox 360 / EA (ny)
9. Need for Speed: Pro Street / PS3 / EA (ny)
10. More Brain Training: How old is your brain? / DS / Nintendo (9)
11. Need for Speed: Pro Street / PS2 / EA (ny)
12. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare / PS3 / Activision (5)
13. The Simpsons / PS2 / EA (7)
14. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock / Xbox 360 / Activision (ny)
15. Kane & Lynch: Dead Men / Xbox 360 / Eidos (ny)
16. Halo 3 / Xbox 360 / Microsoft (13)
17. High School Musical: Sing it! / PS2 / Disney (12)
18. WWE Smackdown vs Raw 2008 / PS2 / THQ (8)
19. Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 / Xbox 360 / Konami (20)
20. Kane & Lynch: Dead Men / PS3 / Eidos (ny)

I'm sure in more Sony friendly countries like Spain, France and Germany(?) PS3 versions can outsell 360 versions though I have not seen any charts from there.

/B

Some of you guys clearly need to take a step away from the computer and get out more. We are talking SW here. We're not talking about what determines which system is winning in the "real " world.

Of course we need some structure in SW. Without any structure everyone will announce themseleves winning in every debate as they change the rules to fit their view. That's especially true here in SW. SW has many rules that people are following. What is A/AA/AAA is one of them. Only GS reviews count is another. The definition of a flop is a third. True, not everyone agree with them but in the end ignoring the rules just won't work. Just look at the flops. When a game flops we have people who right away try to find a way to say it didn't flop. Including other reviews. Saying that "they" like it and thus it is not a flop. Etc. Take away the rules and each discussion will be worthless as no-one will have any common ground to come from.

So far there haven't been a concensus on what counts when determine how good/bad a console is doing. I find it funny that many that are so vocal about not being heard at the same time are very vocal about that sales must count. What you basically are saying is that your opinion is more worth than the majority opinion. Right now people can use which-ever rule they want depending on how their own system is doing. That just creates endless debates about the same thing over and over again.

Casey put this to a vote and the games won by a majority. To me it cannot be any clearer.

Oh, a final word about sales. Some have said they are FACT. But are they really? If we would have gone with sales- what numbers? NPD only? But while I understand it's mostly US-people here, we live in a global world. So why would then not Japan and Europe count? And if so, what number should be use then?

No system is perfect and it's a bit funny to see people get so upset because not every possible facet of the consoles are being included in something un-important as to who is "winning" the System-war in SW? Come on - does it really matter? Just using sales would be just as bad. And a combination would just make it even more confusing. How do you "score" the sales then?

Casey has not behaved like a dictator. He is a mod and basically every forum on the net is moderated and thus have rules. All he asked was that any discussions of sales vs games should continue in the other thread. Hardly something to be upset with.

I think that cakes suggestion was one of the better so far. I think that non-exclusive A/AA/AAA should be counted, just not as much. And by giving PSN/VC/XBL games half the points they to are included, just with not as much weight. As for PC. It's part of System War and has always been and so I don't think there's any reason to exclude it. As a few have said - it might be no 1 but that just means that consolers can ignore it if they want and discuss who is no 2 (and in their mind no 1). Whether to use points or scores when calculating the total score ... that's a hard one. If we use scores I agree with others that we should not make the AAA's count double the AA's. INMO that is a bit much.

This rule needs to be simple, just as the A/AA/AAA/Flop etc. rules. It's just SW. Chill out.

both are complete rip offs in my opinion unless you actually want to use them while away from home. geodisicdome

hehe, I actually use them for an hour or so in bed before sleeping. Perfect for winding down after a long day.

/B

To me it is no longer about the hardware and all about the games. Both now have great games which means that whichever you pick up you should be able to find great games that keep you occupied.

I actually switch back and forth between my DS and my PSP. For a while I played a lot of Final Fantasy III on my DS. Then I played Legends of Heroes II and IIIon the PSP. Then some New Zealand Story on the DS. Right now I play Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlor on my PSP. A game I absolutely love (also available on DS).

The PSP's emu support is a plus to me. I haven't used it so much for video though as I thought i would.

So - it's a tie for me. As the PSP now is coming down very much in price (nearing the DS Lite here in Sweden) i see no reason not´to own both.

/B

It scored a bit lower than I would have thought but he makes some good points. After playing it for 2 days I think the main negative for me is the lack of different gametypes. I have no issues with just 9 maps as long as they are good and there are a variety of ways to play them. But as it stands it really sin't that many differentgametypes which risks making the game boring faster than it should be.

 i do really like the game though. I play a lot of online only games (used to play CS, occasionallys till play the different BF games) and I think they could have a winner on their hand if they price it a bit lower and also made sure to upodate it with some more content. I spoke to a guy on my friendslist yesterday that has some contacts at MS and the skeleton crew left at FASAA is working on the final finishing touches on some more maps. No idea about gametype though.

It saddens me that many in this thread bash it without really have a clue about the game. it might "just" be a CS clone but the mix of races, magic and tech actually IMHO makes it much more fun. Right now people are experimenting on the best combination and that's why weee see a lot of elves with katanas but I'vealready had a few excellent matches where the teams were very varied and used all sorts of magic and tech in the match. and it was fun! Teleporting right behind someone and shooting them into the head and then quickly teleoporting away through the roof - that's fun. Gliding with the troll and pumping lead into people from above, that's fun. using gust to knock someone of the ledge is fun. There's a lot of fun moments in the game. I even enjoy bot-matches. yesterday 4 of my friends joined me in a party and we played several private games against a full set of bots. That was fun.

I definitely recommend at least renting the game and play it an evening to make up your mind.

Oh - one reason why I probablly are not that dissapointed with the game is that I never had any previous encounters with the Shadowrun franshise. So I could not care less if it isn't a RPG or not. Not that I actually think I would mind if any of my "favorite" series would get games of another genre. I'm pretty openminded about that.

So, this game is an 7-8 for me (so GS score was pretty good) and I recommend people to try the demo when it comes or at least rent it. Just try it. you might still hate it or come to like it.

/B

Fair enough. You think these things make the PS3 worht the money. I imported a PS3 (didnt want to pay the $900 it costs in Sweden) and I defintiely still do not think it has been worth the money.

Heavenly Sword is the best looking game to date. Art and graphic wise. Now that PS3 shows that it has better gaphics. I think the $600 dollars is more justifiable. here is a list why PS3 is worth getting. Dip set, No homo

It looks promising but I think you shoudl wait until the game is out before claiming something like this. 

1. Best graphics of the new gen era

Debatable. Not a "truth". Obviously we will see great looking games for both consoles. The 360 have a more advanced GPU while the PS3 ahs the Cell.

2. Blu-ray format making space available for games. More space = More gaming

Again, Not a truth. The space  extra of DVD didnt automatically make games better compared to CD games. Also considering the slower speed of Blue-.Ray it doesnt automatically mean games on the PS3 suddenly will be larger and better just because of Blue-Ray. There's a lot that can be done with texture compression etc.

3. Wi-fi connection. I can stream my media from my PC to my PS3 using it

No. you can only copy from your PC to your PS3. Proper streaming is something the PS3 yet can do. I've tried with my PS3 and so far not been lucky. The 360 streaming is far better right now. Also, I do prefer wired connection for streaming good quality video.

4. Bluetooth. Nobody looks cooler than a guy with a bluetooth earpiece screaming at the top of his lungs.

You got to be kidding. Not to mention the fact that the 360 has great wireless support. I got a wireless headset which works well. BTW - the fact they use bluetooth on the PS3 means I cannot use my nice Logitech Multi remote that I use for all my other stuff. That really sucks since I payed a lot for it.

5. This is a minute point, but the console is black. As Wesley Snipes says, Always bet on Black.

6. All PS consoles lasted over 8 years. No other console company can say that. Talk about $600 dollars going a long way.

To be honest I dont care if my PS3 or Xbox 360 lasts 4, 5 or 8 years. It is not the number of years that is important, it is the content of them. I've already had over 1 year of fun with the 360 and look forward to many years with both consoles.

7. Internet browser. I have a 52' Bravia, and youtube looks better on that than my 17' Viao LCD screen.

Personally I'm not that interested in surfing on my TV (been doing it on my Media Server earlier) but I guess it could be a plus.

8. Better equipped for the High Def era. HDMI lets me enjoy 1080p on my Bravia

Well, VGA does 1080p also. I feel quite happy with my 32" HD and the 360 (and the PS3). Nice high quality HD.

9. Blu-ray. Not only my TV is in HD, but I have a DVD player that plays in HD.

And yet it doesn't even upscale DVD's. I got the HD-DVd addon also and so far I've been more impressed with the quality of the HD-DVd movies than my Blueray movies.

10. Great games the even lemmings and sheep want: FFXIII, MGS4, and White Knights. Also, Rachet & Clank, Socom 4, Tekken 6, Resident Evil 5, Asassin Creed, God of War 3, Little Big Planet, Gran Turismo 5, Motorstorm, Devil May Cry 4, Kingdom Hearts 3, Dynasty Warriors, Virtua Fighter 5, EA sports games, and many many more.

Almost none of those here yet. And some coming to 360 also. And I'm sure theres games on the 360 you want also ;).

11. PS Home. Imagine visiting Square Enix "Home" and talk about the feature to the upcoming title FFXIV. Better yet, visit Nike "Home" and by the latest Jordans for your avatar. How about an exclusive custume for Kratos you won from a contest you won at Sony "Home". The potential is there.

How about first getting a Online service that works as well as Xbox Live? Unified friendslists, ability to do game invites fron inside games/outsides games etc. so far has me very dissapointed in PSN. The fact that not all games even have online support (Virtua tennis 3 for example) is jsut proof that Sony still has some way to go with PSN. Home sounds interesting but I want to see if it is more than MySpace/Sims/Secoind lifefirst. And of course Xbox Live will evolve to.

This is the reason you paying $600 for. If you on the fence about the PS3, my friend I say to you only making a safe investment if you buy one. Sony motto is "Difficult takes a day, Impossible takes a week"

My advice to people not sure yet is to wait until the games they want are out and the price comes down. I dont think it is worth the money yet.

shungokustasu

Oh, and regarding Oblivion. Of course there is a reason the game can be improved on the PS3 over the 360. They have had lots of extra development time to polish stuff.

/B

[QUOTE="NicoRob"] Yes and the stats also show that even with a few thousand ps3's, the ps3 still is doing double of what the rest of the others are doing and in a short amount of time. Until we have those others on here to show us proof that they can do the same, the ps3 on the stat sheets show it is out doing everything else. Im not saying u are wrong but for those who say the xbox 360 is better then the ps3, I would love to see that put to the test. I own both systems and so far my xbox 360 has been sitting there collecting dust ever since I bought my ps3 at launch with resistance and beaten gears of war. I also am enjoying motorstorm and virtua fighter 5 and f1 and the ps3 version of oblivion now but still play RFOM online since Rainbow Six Vegas got boring quick do to alot of lag and not as intense as RFOM. Ill have to wait for Mass Effect and Halo 3 and Lost Odyssey to make me play on my xbox 360.

Xbox Live Gamertag: HEADCRUSHNTONGAN

PSN Gamertag: Vivalatom

squallff8_fan

What is to argue here? The PS3 is doing very well in folding. No one can deny that. Folding on a ATI GPU according to their own stats is also a great way to fold very quickly. Looking at the stats just now 722 GPU folders have "produced" 47 TFLOPS while 24021 PS3's have "produced" 589 TFlops. Obviously the individual GPU-folder is "producing" more than double the TFLOp than the PS3-folder. Does it really matter? of course not. Both are doing a great contribution. I guess the only discussion here is how the 360 would perform. I think it is a bit sad that there even would be some kind of competition about something important like this. Still, since the 360 has a advanced ATI GPU, more advanced than the ATI GPU's folding now,  in them it isn't far fetched to reason that it would do very well.

As for you rest of the post regarding 360 vs PS3. It's all down to taste. I got both to and while the PS3 has some news-value and I am enjoying Motorstorm I still think the 360 easily beats it hands down on  almost all fronts, especially Online. But that's just a personal opinion.

In the end I do hope they come out with a folding client for the 360 also. Not so we can start arguing which is the best folder but so that we could together contribute to a important cause like Cancer research. The only thing that is making me not sure if I will continue folding is the amount of extra elitricity this needs. The prices are going through the roof here and I also am not sure that in a time where there is a lot talk that we all need to start conserving energy I can turn on even more machines and have them run 24/7.