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#1 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts
@MirkoS77 said:

I disagree, they are as deep as arcade experiences. Even Odyssey's distinguishing mechanic that grants it depth to its gameplay does not mean it doesn't exist within a very superficial framework that holds no long term, consequential impact to interwoven gameplay systems that manifest itself at the end. It exists in the moment, it's temporal, fleeting, interchangeable, it doesn't culminate nor compound. I can't improve Mario's skill set, I'm stuck with it from the beginning to the end.

Even Arcade games can have depth, see every fighting game ever. In any case, Nintendo is heavily rooted in Arcade games, Toys, and Analog games (Cards, Board Games, etc.). So naturally many of their games reflect that. That doesn't mean there isn't depth though. As I mentioned, Splatoon's depth comes from the sheer versatility of its one simple mechanic, Shooting ink. That mechanic is layered on top with multiple uses and ways to shoot ink. Shooting ink covers the ground, therefore it gets you points. But it also slows the enemy down if they walk in it. Shooting ink also takes out enemies. Changing to squid form allows you to hide in your ink, which is good for strategy. But you can also swim fast in your ink for quick traversal, climb up walls in ink, reload your weapon. And the different weapons and items available changes how ink can be sprayed.

All of these actions stem back from that one simple mechanic of shooting ink. It creates a surprisingly strategic game where you have to take terrain into account at all times, while retaining a pick-up and play appeal that even people who hate shooters can grasp.

@MirkoS77 said:

That's an extremely broad statement that needs to be taken on a case by case basis, and does not lay credit to the opposite approach simply by virtue of a generalization.

I'm not denying that the other approach you laid out doesn't have merit, I'm just saying it can easily backfire. Same is true with the Arcade-like approach of Nintendo.

@MirkoS77 said:

That very well may be, but then explain to me where games such as Uncharted, GoW, Spider-Man, and TLoU are?

Don't kid yourself, Nintendo vehemently disagrees with such cinematic game design philosophy across the board that Sony embraces. Let's not pretend that they're not an exceptionally mechanics-focused, idea-driven company from the get go, and that Sony and Nintendo's design philosophies are intrinsically incompatible. The impetus of the latter are mechanics and always has been (much more so after Iwata took over) no matter how much they diverge from Miyamoto statements.

Nintendo's first party output is diverse as there's a lot of leeway that is afforded to them within mechanical novelty, but within that innovation, they are extremely strict and homogeneous in their creative predilections that are beholden to it. Just as much as Sony is with their more formulaic experiences they afford.

Nintendo has always been about making games different from other companies. They're not interested in just blindly following trends and genres that everyone and their mom is doing in the industry. If Nintendo is presented with a cinematic game idea that does make itself unique from others, they'll probably go through with it. But if somebody pitches them a cinematic game that has no distinct characteristics from it in terms of game-play, design, and story, then they'll more than likely pass. Nintendo wants to make games nobody else is making, and they give their developers free reign on how to go about it.

Nintendo isn't against cinematic or story-driven games, they're against story-driven games that offer nothing that other publishers couldn't offer.

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#2 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@jaydan said:
@TheMisterManGuy said:

Three of those games don't even have loot boxes, just gatcha mechanics that are actually quite generous. Mario Kart Tour is kinda gross, but that's just one game. If you want to prove this point, you'll need to give us better examples.

There are no better examples, lol.

I have never even heard of this Dragalia Lost game that's in the OP until now. That right there shows the kind of reach the OP is going for to include some unknown game.

Like I said before, after all these years of being a consumer of Nintendo products (pretty much my entire life), I have never once bought a Nintendo lootbox and I have never personally been solicited lootboxes by Nintendo either.

Nintendo doesn't always have clean hands, but they mostly stay out of this kind of trouble, especially for their console games. If the OP really wanted to make a point, he could try and point to a full priced, first party Switch game that's filled with microtransactions and loot boxes. Which is impossible because those don't exist :p.

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#3 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

Three of those games don't even have loot boxes, just gatcha mechanics that are actually quite generous. Mario Kart Tour is kinda gross, but that's just one game. If you want to prove this point, you'll need to give us better examples.

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#4 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@MirkoS77: Splatoon and ARMS actually have quite a bit of depth to their game-play systems. Anyone who plays Splatoon regularly will tell you there's actually a lot of versatility to its deceptively simple mechanics. ARMS also has quite a bit of depth as well. Nintendo's approach doesn't stifle game-play depth because their mechanics are versatile enough to be applied in numerous ways. Take Super Mario Odyssey for example. It's built around one simple mechanic, throwing Cappy. But that mechanic is used in a variety of important ways. Throwing Cappy can be an attack, it can clear obstacles, it can be a platform, and with the capture mechanic, it can give you access to nearly every enemy in the game as well as their abilities. It keeps the game easy to play, but adds a layer of variety and depth for those who dig really deep.

Stacking a bunch of vaguely related mechanics ontop of eachother can add depth. But a lot of times, it leads to over designed, and clunky experiences that don't benefit the core design.

Nintendo's claimed they're a toy company, and much of their output largely reflects that statement. I'm in gaming for experiences, not toys. Mechanics are simply a means to that end for me, not the ends in and of themselves. And that's fine, it's just a difference in taste respective to design philosophy. Nintendo has a place in this industry as much as Sony does, it's simply not to my preference.

You do realize that Nintendo is a diverse company of developers that have their own views and philosophies regarding game design? Sure, Miyamoto had a large impact on the company-wide creative philosophy. But It's not like the Developers within Nintendo only share a strict homogeneous creative view. Each of the company's team heads and designers all have their method and approach to game development, and views on gaming.

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#5 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts
@Pedro said:

Its funny when people mentions Nintendo has being unique and innovative yet they best known for the same games they have been making for the almost three decades. LOL

Which even those regularly have new ideas and innovation. Breath of the Wild plays nothing like Ocarina of Time. Super Mario Odyssey plays nothing like Galaxy. Animal Crossing New Horizons plays nothing like Wild World. You get the idea.

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#6  Edited By TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts
@Jag85 said:

Disney's business model has changed over the past decade or so, after the buyout of Marvel and Lucas transformed Disney. Nintendo is more like classic Disney, rather than modern Disney. It's also worth noting that Nintendo has technically branched out to other media, merchandise and theme parks via The Pokemon Company.

Classic Disney is a fair comparison too. The Pokemon Company is technically a joint-venture, and only exists because Pokemon is so expansive as an IP. Regardless, Nintendo will license their characters to third parties for merchandise and other media projects. But they'll never build divisions to do that stuff internally. Nintendo's not interested in being a conglomerate, they prefer to maintain the appearance of a company run by game developers for people who play games. That means keeping the company at a reasonable size in terms of how many places they have their hands in.

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#7 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@Jag85 said:
@TheMisterManGuy said:

Finally, there's Nintendo, Co. Ltd. Of the three, Nintendo is the most dependent on its IP and homemade software. They're the "Sanrio" of gaming, using its iconic Mascots like Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, Link, Yoshi, DK, and more to fuel often critically acclaimed Software, along with licensed merchandise and media.

This is the first time I've seen Nintendo compared to Sanrio. Nintendo has always been known as the "Disney of gaming", which is a more appropriate comparison. While all three are known for family-friendly franchises, Sanrio only has a single mega-franchise (Hello Kitty), whereas Disney and Nintendo have multiple family-friendly mega-franchises.

Nintendo's business model is much closer to Sanrio than Disney. Disney is an own-it-all multi-industry conglomerate with subsidiaries and divisions that manage different industries from TV, Film, Parks, Comics, etc. Sanrio meanwhile, is a much smaller, but still rather big IP-driven company that instead focuses on licensing characters to multi-media partners rather than having multi-media themselves.

Nintendo is similar, rather than having divisions for theme parks, movies, music, etc. They instead license those rights out to a third party while they oversee it. So while Disney has an entire division dedicated to large scale theme parks. Nintendo simply licensed their characters to NBCUniversal for a smaller "Super Nintendo World" section in the general Universal Studios parks. Nintendo deliberately avoids too much growth in terms of divisions and the industries they're in, preferring to keep a manageable size as it's both less costly to operate, and preserves the image of a playful, innovative company that focuses on Fun and not just profits (Well, they focus on that too, but you get the idea).

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#8 TheMisterManGuy
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@r-gamer said:

I love most of Nintendo's exclusives but to call them unique is laugable. Outside BotW they have not innovated in any of their genres in nearly 20 years.

Splatoon is an innovative take on the online shooter. ARMS is an innovative take on the arena fighting game. Super Mario Odyssey is the most innovative 3D Mario since Galaxy. To say Nintendo hasn't been innovating in IPs and genres makes no sense when you actually look at their games.

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#9  Edited By TheMisterManGuy
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@osan0 said:

Nintendo rely on tried and tested IP but tend to play around mechanically with their games. they can't really razzle dazzle with tech (at least in the console space: handheld wise the switch is pretty epic) so they focus on trying to attract people to their platform in different (and generally cost effective) ways. Leaving the hardware race has also helped keep costs under control and means that a dud is not the end of the world for them.

But even still, Nintendo has made plenty of New IP on the Switch. You have ARMS, Nintendo Labo, 1-2 Switch, Astral Chain, and Ring Fit Adventure to name a few. All of them are built on gameplay and ideas that wouldn't have been approved under a third party publisher.

@osan0 said:

Sony are kind of the opposite: lots of new IP that ties back to tried and tested game mechanics. Sony invest a lot in visual tech and things like motion capture and the visual performance. but mechanically they don't really do anything that interesting in their games (at least their big headline grabbing games). they can still be very enjoyable of course but, like everyone, Sony is still very much managing the risks. I suspect that, internally, they have also put a cap of 40-45 million on the budget for each of their games and they may not raise that much. it's very hard to try and justify 100-200 million budgets while just tying it to one platform in todays gaming market. or they may but they may take a punt at releasing 1 "masterpiece" sony game with a $100-120 price tag every couple of years to try and attract people to playstation...maybe.

While Sony's biggest games do tend to share the same gameplay template. The overall stories, themes, and aesthetics are still far more creatively risky than most third party games. They're one of the few Publishers who still regularly puts out AAA single player games. In an era where third parties are moving away from that in favor of loot-box, live-service, multiplayer games, that's pretty bold.

While the Platform holders do have their share of safe bets, they don't exclusively rely on them the way Third party publishers do. That's the point. Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft can afford to put out games that wouldn't see the light of day under companies like EA or Activision because they need to draw attention to their platforms, and the best way to do that is to produce creatively risky games that grab attention. It also helps that the Platform holders have more revenue streams from Hardware sales, subscription services, and Third party royalty fees, all to help fund first party game development.

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#10 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

AAA games these days are known for being very risk averse. The sheer costs it takes to make today's high-end games means that Publishers have turned to relying on safe-bet franchises over everything else. If there is a New IP being made, it's usually cut from the same Live-service, Open-world mold as those are what's hot right now apparently. In a sea of franchises and Copy-Cats, The 3 platform holders, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft don't seem to fall into this trap nearly as much. In fact, first party games from these three, also happen to be the most original and unique games of this generation, some even surpassing a lot of today's third party blockbusters.

Sony Interactive Entertainment, has been gaining critical and commercial acclaim unlike anything its ever seen with its PS4 output. Games like Horizon Zero Dawn, Astro Bot, God of War, Spider-Man, Until Dawn, Dreams, and upcoming games like Ghosts of Tsushima have captured caught the industry's attention for their scope, ambition, and overall quality. I know it's become sort of a meme to label Sony's recent titles as the same Cinematic third-person, action game. And while it's true a lot of first party games on the PS4 feel like that, not many publishers these days would even bother releasing something like Gravity Rush 2 or Concrete Genie. Even in the "Cinematic" games, there's often stories and content most third party games of similar production would avoid like the plague. So while it's true, most of Sony's games tend to be somewhat formulaic, they still bring something interesting to the table.

Microsoft's Xbox Game Studios has struggled the past few years. Many of its studios have closed, Games were tragically cancelled, and the Big 3 Xbox franchises have long since overstayed their welcome. It's easy to argue they've been the weakest of the three first party wise this gen, but lately Microsoft's been trying to fix that. They've acquired several studios over the past year or so, and not only that, they're promising to give them an unlimited budget, and large degree of creative independence. Considering the length of Game Development, we'll have to wait until next generation to see where this goes, but even ignoring that, Microsoft was still able to finance some interesting titles this generation. Insomniac Games' Sunset Overdrive was well received, Rare's Sea of Theives had a less than stellar launch, but from what I've heard, has gotten better with each update. And Ori and the Blind Forest is considered one of the best games on the system, and its sequel is arriving very soon. There's also Ninja Theory's upcoming Bleeding Edge, which seems like an interesting take on the Overwatch style multiplayer game.

Finally, there's Nintendo, Co. Ltd. Of the three, Nintendo is the most dependent on its IP and homemade software. They're the "Sanrio" of gaming, using its iconic Mascots like Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, Link, Yoshi, DK, and more to fuel often critically acclaimed Software, along with licensed merchandise and media. But even with it's IP-driven business model, Nintendo is still committed to games and ideas that nobody really has seen before. There's Splatoon, a multiplayer shooter that focuses on ink and territory control with a distinct style all its own. ARMS, a 3D arena fighter where you play as combatants with Stretchy ARMS. Nintendo Labo, a series of Cardboard based Construction Toys using the Switch and its Joy-Con in new ways. And their newest creation, Ring-Fit Adventure an RPG played entirely using a Pilates Ring and Leg Strap to do fitness moves and actions. There's also smaller titles like Snipperclips, 1-2 Switch, Astral Chain, Sushi Striker, and even Brain Age that very few, if any publishers have a recent equivalent to. Even in established franchises, Nintendo games often ooze with ideas and creativity. Even when you play a game in a long running series like Luigi's Mansion 3, you feel like you're playing a game that the developers wanted to make, not a game that was simply made because of corporate mandates.

I think the reason the Platform holders aren't as creatively stagnant as most big third party publishers is their need to make their consoles stand out, as game development and hardware gets more and more standardized, there's more preasure on the platform holders to try and make games that make their console stand out, and that means touching games and ideas that other publishers wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.