people complain that christians are intolerant, but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that it is you atheists who are intolerant and maybe racist.

You believe in nothing, so why not let us believe in what we believe in?

strategyking92

"People" said the self-titled King of Strategy, "complain that Christians are intolerant," and with that last word every back straightened and listened carefully, and His Majesty continued, "but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that" speaking louder now, "it is YOU... atheists," several audible gasps, a man in the back row faints in his chair, a woman with two children vacates the room, "that are intolerant" his voice falls... "and maybe" whispering now "racist!"

that's right... watch out for the united atheist league AKA the klu klux klan, not only do we hate god... we also hate blacks and albinos.

you really are a complete tosspot strategy king... I mean seriously...

[QUOTE="Tuvola"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Trashface

Nothing can be disproven or proven. But you can get evidence for something that backs up things... or even something to suggest you're on the right lines. But look at you. You pray to your godly figure of Jesus, yet this biblical figure that stands so proud at the forefront of your religious practise is just a copy of older gods like Isis and Dionysus, similar gods born to virgins, on the 25th of december, doing miracles, tested in the desert by satan, turning water into wine, being crucified...do a little research on Isis-Dionysus gods.

Your christian holy scripture is just a laughable amalgamation of older texts and stories... water into wine is an old trick Jesus... it's hillarious that the most widespread religious tradition in the worlds is a clear fraud. Yet people close their eyes to it... oh of course the church have their ridiculous explaination... of satan going back to create false impersonations. But this is not in the bible! This has been plucked from the air... literally an invention of the church... where does it stop?

What a sad and utterly self-destructive waste of time this business is.

So because it was written of mythologically in the past means it wasn't really done later? The people could have been familiar with the story, so Jesus used it to show he could do it in reality. That could apply to many older texts. These miracles from older stories could have been performed by Christ before their eyes to show that he was really what he claimed. There's a logical explaination. Nice try, though. You seem pretty arrogant. Many well spoken words still don't change the factthat you believe yourself correct, but cannot prove anything. There is no reason anyone should take you any more seriously. Nothing will be proven. Belief is a lot like love. In it's deepest forms, it's a decision. We have the information and it's up to us what we do with it. This really is my last post on this forum. I'll probably have to not read anymore, since it's so tempting to reply. As superior as you believe yourself to be, I have had a logical reply for every single attempted point. You've accomplished nothing at all. You would have believed the earth to be flat if you had been in earlier times because it would have seemed logical. As I believe by faith, you disbelieve by faith.

Faith faith faith faith faith faith faith faith faith. There is nothing to your argument but faith. And for you this is seemingly the be-all and end-all solution to the argument. How nice it is for you to be able to argue with one word. And this idea of lack of proof either way... bollocks. It's up to you to prove the assertion... and when things that can be proven to an extend now disagree entirely with what is written within the bible, you can of course suggest by some level of proof the bible has been disproven. This is not clear-cut, and christians now fall back into their hole of "interpretation" to carry on this absurdist tradition.

And when the arrow is pointed so far in one direction... and you still don't look at it. This is finally a point where faith must break. Let me explain faith to you for a second, from my somewhat reasonable (with what we KNOW) point of view... as opposed to your religiously minded point of view. It is an aspect of your incredibly complex and amazing brain, which is like an ocean inwhich the drifting jellyfish of the mind floats through. Faith itself is this incredibly powerful emotion designed to be so powerful by the current that is evolution. I read an excellent article detailing the importance of a faith emotion when linked to survival in groups.

When I describe faith in this way I am sure you are thinking of how my point of view can never be proven and neither can yours and faith faith faith faith faith faith but the trap you fall into again and again and again is this quite ridiculous practise of disregarding the necessity for a basic framework of logical.

And you become trapped in this "faith" contour, disallowing yourself to believe in anything else. And at the end of the day it comforts you. Because you can not accept the idea that after death there is a chance you will not exist, and you will never again exist. You want to believe fully and 100 percent that there IS more. Why is the idea of eternal nothingness so repulsive to so many, I know why! I know exactly why! And yet it's so hard to put into words. And yet I've realised there's nothing to fear from death, and the idea of everything stopping is just as wonderful as everything being so alive while you are alive. And there is a duality there, push each side to its extreme, and seek religious experience and meaning elsewhere. They can be found in abundance outside the confines of christianity. Try lysergic acid diethylamide.

[QUOTE="Tuvola"]

To surrender to ignorance and call it "God" has always been premature, and it remains premature today. Religious knowledge is the wrong knowledge... by-the-by faith aside and just a simple understanding of where we're all coming from the arguments used by the church are confusing arguments that answer nothing... because the average man's frame-of-reference now has more scientific knowledge to aid understanding... and the average man's frame-of-reference contains a more analytical edge than ever before with such information at our fingertips...

the absurd pro-god arguments become weaker and more desperate... until finally the flock is no more... some other faith-system developed in modern times designed to fit in with our perceptions of the world would perhaps have more followers if it had the establishment of christianity... christianity is old and doesn't fit into modern society nearly as much as the religious leaders would like... and that is why the counter-arguments and the lines of reason are ever more blurred... though it cannot be kept up forever... and it will not maintain itself forever... or for very long yet.

let theologist's theologise... the truth is actually very simple and clear-cut... and the grand ideas of complexity and difficulty of understanding that some christian debaters try to associatate with faith is actually just a mirror of how our minds work, and how much we know about the universe. As the ratios change however... it no longer fits in... and man will no longer be brainwashed. Not that 1900 years of christian brainwashing haven't been for the most part very good for our progress... to some extent. That is not the case any longer, however, as we see with increasing conflict between development and religious entanglement.

IF you don't realise what a fatal flaw it is to declare that we may not truly understand God or his workings, then you're trapped. You'll never understand that. Yet if you do understand the actual problem, that isn't fixed by faith, the actual problem by turning everything into smoke and mirrors to explain away all the contradictions to religion that modern progress brings to us... if you do see what true problem there is... then you will probably turn away from this narrow-minded christian belief.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe in God... but to believe in Christianity, is quite an absurd standpoint indeed.

Trashface

Wow, you say pro god arguments are absurd, then later say it's ok to believe in god, not Christ. You say there's a real problem and Christianity is just smoke and mirrors. I just stripped all the needless words away and left the core points. You act as if scientific knowledge and religion are at odds, but they are not. They can go hand in hand if you look closely. The scientist that leads the human genome project is a Christian. He also mapped the human genome. Even scientists will acknowledge that we as small humans have many, many unanswered questions. You say because of man's scientific wisening, Christianity is becoming obsolete. Well you just helped me make a point. Even with all the scientific advances and everything we have learned, you still cannot disprove God. You will never be able to. I do agree that the flock will thin. It predicts that in the bible. It seems you have a resentment for christianity in particular. There are so many other religions, it's odd you have this one so targeted. Especially when fundamentalist Islam is far more opressive. As I've said, if we had all the answers, God would be proven to be far weaker than claimed. Us not knowing things far, far bove us is just part of the truth. Your own post contradicted itself. After all your words are stripped down, you've accomplished nothing. You see, I didn't come here to prove anyone wrong. That's what the atheists and such try to do. I just stated my points.Proof is so important to people like you, yet none of my points have been proven wrong. My purpose in this thread were to put my words out there. I did so and none were proven wrong. They can't be. I'll really leave the thread now because this has become a waste of time. Remember, many words don't add any more substance to your THEORIES.

Theories are based on some sort of suggestive influence, some sort of clear arrow that points in a direction and then can be experimentally verified perhaps. I mean that second point would just be a nice plus point

I dislike it when religious people list a bunch of scientists who are christian, I don't mean to say that to be one or the other is mutually exclusive. It doesn't have any bearing on christianity's truthfulness... you'll find there's a negative (not clear cut of course) correlation between IQ and religious piety. Just like if you go into any physics department you'll find about 80 percent of the professors are not religious in any way at all. Yet if you grow up with it you'll always hold it. But wait this isn't getting anywhere.

We don't have all the answers no.

Imagine if you will a crossword. A regular word-puzzle, you have clues and you have answers to fill it. Religion gives you all the answers. It gives you every answer you could possibly need, and it'll fill in your crossword perfectly... and it can be made so all the answers fit and can be seen to fit and make some sense. And yet the scientific method has only a few clues filled in... yet we can be sure to within a shadow of a doubt that these answers are the real answers... or approach the real answers in very real ways that the religious answers just don't approach... the religious answers are just that... they're designed to fill in all the clues yet there's no truth behind it... it's just a conveniant clue-filler...

yet is there not something more satisfying in not knowing all the answers, and working towards the truth as best as we can get to. I'm not concerned with limits and the far-flung future... people say there are boundaries to science and we will not know everything even at the end... yet 2 weeks before solar spectra were used to determine the chemical compositio of the sun the scientific community was in agreement that one thing we will never know is the composition of the stars.

Also if you are to capitalise the word God, indicating a proper noun naming a single entity that you call "God" ok then please also capitalise your other proper nouns. Sorry its just something that gets me... the very physical shape of the capitalised word "God" offends me somehow. It must be the devil in me. Or it must be me tiring of seeing it already after my short time in this gravitational well drifting through space.

[QUOTE="Tuvola"]

if only I could provide you a way to step back from your christian self for just a moment and view it all subjectively...

Aidenfury19

*cough* Urmm..you sure you don't mean OBJECTIVELY there?

Well if you can notice that, perhaps you can turn your attentiveness to something more pressing. The point I'm making.

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Trashface

Nothing can be disproven or proven. But you can get evidence for something that backs up things... or even something to suggest you're on the right lines. But look at you. You pray to your godly figure of Jesus, yet this biblical figure that stands so proud at the forefront of your religious practise is just a copy of older gods like Isis and Dionysus, similar gods born to virgins, on the 25th of december, doing miracles, tested in the desert by satan, turning water into wine, being crucified...do a little research on Isis-Dionysus gods.

Your christian holy scripture is just a laughable amalgamation of older texts and stories... water into wine is an old trick Jesus... it's hillarious that the most widespread religious tradition in the worlds is a clear fraud. Yet people close their eyes to it... oh of course the church have their ridiculous explaination... of satan going back to create false impersonations. But this is not in the bible! This has been plucked from the air... literally an invention of the church... where does it stop?

What a sad and utterly self-destructive waste of time this business is.

[QUOTE="muppet1010"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

Trashface

allow me to summarize his post for you pianist :)

along the lines of "god is above us... you cant attempt to understand him." Its quite a nice arguement really. In that it cant be argued against if the person can take that statement and dress it up numerous different ways.

Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that.

My friend... having knowledge equal to that of your god would still deprive you of his many other abilities... and humans are able to exceed in knowledge in so many areas and continue to do so... we lowly humans know nothing of God, theology is a stagnant field because there is nothing to be gained from pondering old and basic questions... the answers to which are plain and presentable... and yet still you are suckered into your strange reality... if only I could provide you a way to step back from your christian self for just a moment and view it all subjectively... but you will likely never be able to do that.

To surrender to ignorance and call it "God" has always been premature, and it remains premature today. Religious knowledge is the wrong knowledge... by-the-by faith aside and just a simple understanding of where we're all coming from the arguments used by the church are confusing arguments that answer nothing... because the average man's frame-of-reference now has more scientific knowledge to aid understanding... and the average man's frame-of-reference contains a more analytical edge than ever before with such information at our fingertips...

the absurd pro-god arguments become weaker and more desperate... until finally the flock is no more... some other faith-system developed in modern times designed to fit in with our perceptions of the world would perhaps have more followers if it had the establishment of christianity... christianity is old and doesn't fit into modern society nearly as much as the religious leaders would like... and that is why the counter-arguments and the lines of reason are ever more blurred... though it cannot be kept up forever... and it will not maintain itself forever... or for very long yet.

let theologist's theologise... the truth is actually very simple and clear-cut... and the grand ideas of complexity and difficulty of understanding that some christian debaters try to associatate with faith is actually just a mirror of how our minds work, and how much we know about the universe. As the ratios change however... it no longer fits in... and man will no longer be brainwashed. Not that 1900 years of christian brainwashing haven't been for the most part very good for our progress... to some extent. That is not the case any longer, however, as we see with increasing conflict between development and religious entanglement.

IF you don't realise what a fatal flaw it is to declare that we may not truly understand God or his workings, then you're trapped. You'll never understand that. Yet if you do understand the actual problem, that isn't fixed by faith, the actual problem by turning everything into smoke and mirrors to explain away all the contradictions to religion that modern progress brings to us... if you do see what true problem there is... then you will probably turn away from this narrow-minded christian belief.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe in God... but to believe in Christianity, is quite an absurd standpoint indeed.